Preliminary Tier List Discussion (Lunatic Mode)

[Don Draper]

Starting with which chapter? I think Paperblade's videos already reveal some.

From the start up to Chapter 4 would probably do for now. Paperblade's videos should provide the rest, and those will give us something to work with.

I could even do the prologue, meaning just Chapters 1-4 would be great, thanks.

[Colonel M]

I can backtrack from Prologue up to Chapter 4.

[_____]

Ninji says:

Do you have enemy samples for this (Chapter 13) on Lunatic?

TM says:

No but I think I can use VASM' hex editing reference to warp there and look

Ninji says:

I want to see how Robert's doing there to tell Jackal.

TM says:

hmm let me see what I can do

chapter 13 right?

Ninji says:

Yes.

TM says:

So, I can warp

Ninji says:

Alright.

TM says:

let's see, bandit

Lv 14

Ninji says: (I lost internet connection randomly here, fyi)

OK

back

sorry

TM says:

Ninji: Alright.

TM: let's see, bandit

TM: Lv 14

TM: 45 HP

TM: 21 STR

TM: 17 SKL

TM: 17 SPD

TM: 8 DEF

TM: 32 ATK due to Tomahawk

TM: Ice Dragon

TM: Lv 13

TM: 48 HP

TM: 21 STR

TM: 24 SKL

TM: 17 SPD

TM: 16 DEF

Flying Dragon

Lv 11

46 HP

20 STR

17 SKL

22 SPD

10 DEF

3 RES

oh and, Dragons have 1-2 range attack

not 1 like in normal

Ninji says:

Yeah.

TM says:

then the Shamans

32 HP

13 MAG

16 SKL

16 SPD

7 DEF

5 RES

Bolganone

27 ATK

holy fuck

they're the weakest and they still hit hard

So, about Robert. He has 32 HP and 8 Defense, so he's 2HKO'd by everything on the Map and is ORKO'd by Flying Dragons because they double him. Considering how most enemies have 1-2 range, he can't exactly avoid counters, either.

With a Steel Bow, he has 20 attack. That 5RKOs Bandits, 12RKOs Ice Dragons, 2RKOs Flying Dragons (where were you in the desert, damn it), and 3RKOs Shamans.

Now, I haven't played Lunatic, so I don't know how this stacks up to the rest of your team, but this isn't exactly good combat.

[Don Draper]

I can backtrack from Prologue up to Chapter 4.

That's okay I think I've got it covered. I'll start a new topic for enemy stats (unless you want to)

As for Robert, you're right Ninji. He doesn't seem to be salvageable.

[_____]

Well, I guess you could throw the +2 Speed Orb Shard on him and let him whittle down Flying Dragon HP, but they really aren't extremely common for the next few chapters. I guess he'd be doing better against human enemies once they start popping up again, though. I think everyone would be. Also, it doesn't help Robert that Beck joins in the same chapter and he's basically a slightly better version of him.

Belf, however, is getting his ass kicked even harder than Robert. Even with an early promotion, the only enemies that don't double him are the Shamans.

[Don Draper]

Well, I guess you could throw the +2 Speed Orb Shard on him and let him whittle down Flying Dragon HP, but they really aren't extremely common for the next few chapters. I guess he'd be doing better against human enemies once they start popping up again, though. I think everyone would be. Also, it doesn't help Robert that Beck joins in the same chapter and he's basically a slightly better version of him.

Belf, however, is getting his ass kicked even harder than Robert. Even with an early promotion, the only enemies that don't double him are the Shamans.

Leiden seems to be more of the same too. Guess the three generic Camus supporters are doomed to uselessness.

On another note, I started collecting enemy stats. I won't make another topic yet, since somebody else (bblade?) might want to do them for the whole game and I don't really want to do them past the prologue if possible.

Enemies that are reinforcements are in italics. Bosses are bolded.

Prologue 1

1x Soldier Lvl 1

Boss Jagen: Paladin Lvl 1

Soldier (Iron Lance): 23 (24) HP, 14 (15) Atk, 114 (115) Hit, 5 (6) AS, 2 Def, 0 Res, 4 (5) Crit

Jagen (Javelin): 27 (28) HP, 16 (17) Atk, 95 (96) Hit, 7 AS, 4 Def, 1 Res, 4 (5) Crit

Prologue 2

Boss Luke: Cavalier Lvl 1

Boss Rody: Cavalier Lvl 1

Luke (Iron Sword): 32 HP, 18 Atk, 121 (122) Hit, 7 AS, 5 Def, 0 Res, 4 (5) Crit

Rody (Iron Lance): 32 HP, 17 (18) Atk, 116 (117) Hit, 6 AS, 4 Def, 0 Res, 4 (5) Crit

Prologue 3

2x Fighters Lvl 1

1x Mer Lvl 1

Boss Shiida: Pegasus Knight Lvl 4

Fighter (Iron Axe): 30 (31) HP, 19 (20) Atk, 114 (115) Hit, 6 AS, 3 Def, 0 Res, 4 (5) Crit

Mercenary (Iron Sword): 27 HP, 18 Atk, 121 Hit, 7 AS, 3 Def, 0 Res, 5 Crit

Shiida (Iron Lance): 31 (32) HP, 16 Atk, 116 (117) Hit, 14 AS, 4 Def, 6 Res, 4 Crit

Prologue 4 (Athena)

2x Soldiers Lvl 1

2x Myrms Lvl 1

1x Archer Lvl 1

1x Merc Lvl 1

Boss Athena: Myrmidon Lvl 10

Soldier (Steel Lance): 27 HP, 19 (20) Atk, 103 (104) Hit, 6 (7) AS, 3 Def, 0 Res, 4 Crit

Myrmidon (Steel Sword): 25 HP, 16 (17) Atk, 113 (114) Hit, 11 AS, 3 Def, 0 Res, 6 (7) Crit

Archer (Steel Bow): 25 HP, 18 (19) Atk, 102 (103) Hit, 7 AS, 3 Def, 0 Res, 3 (4) Crit

Mercenary (Steel Sword): 27 HP, 21 Atk, 111 Hit, 6 (7) AS, 3 Def, 0 Res, 5 Crit

Athena (Steel Sword): 37 HP, 19 Atk, 117 (118) Hit, 16 (17) AS, 4 Def, 0 Res, 7 Crit

Prologue 5

4x Bandits Lvl 2

2x Archers Lvl 2

1x Thief Lvl 3

Boss: Bandit Lvl 5

Bandit* (Steel Axe): 30 (31) HP, 22 (23) Atk, 105 (106) Hit, 7 (8) AS, 2 (3) Def, 0 Res, 5 Crit

Archer (Steel Bow): 25 (26) HP, 17 (18) Atk, 105 Hit, 8 AS, 2 (3) Def, 0 Res, 4 (5) Crit

Thief (Steel Sword): 26 (27) HP, 19 (20) Atk, 111 (112) Hit, 12 (13) AS, 1 (2) Def, 0 Res, 5 (6) Crit

Boss (Hand Axe): 37 HP, 21 Atk, 97 (98) Hit, 10 (11) AS, 5 Def, 0 Res, 6 Crit

*One bandit drops a Vulnerary

Prologue 6 (Draug)

2x Soldiers Lvl 1

1x Archer Lvl 2

1x Mage Lvl 2

Boss Draug: Knight Lvl 6

Soldier (Steel Lance): 28 (29) HP, 19 (20) Atk, 103 (104) Hit, 8 AS, 3 Def, 0 Res, 4 Crit

Archer (Steel Bow): 28 (29) HP, 20 (21) Atk, 102 (103) Hit, 7 AS, 3 Def, 0 Res, 3 (4) Crit

Mage (Fire): 22 (23) HP, 16 (17) Atk, 123 (124) Hit, 8 (9) AS, 2 (3) Def, 3 (4) Res, 4 Crit

Draug* (Steel Lance: 35 (36) HP, 22 (23) Atk, 105 (106) Hit, 6 AS, 11 Def, 0 Res, 4 (5) Crit

*Drops a Vulnerary

Prologue 7 (Cain)

2x Knights Lvl 1

2x Archers Lvl 2

2x Myrms Lvl 3

Boss Cain: Lvl 9 Cavalier

Turn 3:

1x Archer Lvl 2

2x Cavaliers Lvl 2

1x Pegasus Knight Lvl 2

Knight (Steel Lance): 34 (35) HP, 22 (23) Atk, 104 (105) Hit, 5 AS, 9 Def, 0 Res, 4 (5) Crit

Archer* (Steel Bow): 28 (29) HP, 20 (21) Atk, 103 (104) Hit, 9 AS, 3 (4) Def, 0 (1) Res, 4 Crit

Myrmidon** (Steel Sword): 31 (32) HP, 18 (19) Atk, 113 (114) Hit, 11 (12) AS, 3 (4) Def, 0 Res, 6 Crit

Cain*** (Steel Sword): 38 HP, 24 Atk, 114 (115) Hit, 10 (11) AS, 7 Def, 0 Res, 6 Crit

Archer(Steel Bow): Same as Initial Archers

Cavalier (Steel Lance): 32 (33) HP, 23 Atk, 106 (107) Hit, 8 (9) AS, 3 (4) Def, 0 Res, 5 (6) Crit

Pegasus Knight**** (Steel Lance): 31 (32) HP, 20 (21) Atk, 104 (105) Hit, 13 AS, 3 Def, 6 Res, 4(5) Crit

* One Archer Drops an Iron Bow

** One Myrmidon Drops an Iron Sword

***Drops a Heal Staff

****Drops an Iron Lance

Prologue 8

4x Thieves Lvl 3 (2x Steel Sword, 2x Silver Sword)

2x Thieves Lvl 5

4x Bandits Lvl 3 (2x Steel Axe, 1x Silver Axe, 1x Silver Axe, Hand Axe)

2x Archers Lvl 3

2x Mages Lvl 1

Boss Katarina: Mage Lvl 10

Turns 2, 4

2x Thieves Lvl 5

Turn 3

2x Bandits Lvl 3

Lvl 3 Thief (Steel Sword): 28 (29) HP, 19 (20) Atk, 112 Hit, 12 (13) AS, 2 (3) Def, 0 Res, 6 Crit

Lvl 3 Thief (Silver Sword): 28 (29) HP, 23 (24) Atk, 122 Hit, 12 (13) AS, 2 (3) Def, 0 Res, 6 Crit

Lvl 5 Thief (Thunder Sword): 29 (30) HP, 13 Atk, 112 (113) Hit, 13 (14) AS, 3 (4) Def, 0 Res, 6 Crit

Bandit (Steel Axe): 33 (34) HP, 23 Atk, 105 (106) Hit, 9 (10) AS, 4 Def, 0 (1) Res, 5 Crit

Bandit* (Silver Axe): 33 (34) HP, 27 Atk, 115 (116) Hit, 9 (10) AS, 4 Def, 0 (1) Res, 5 Crit

Bandit (Hand Axe): 33 (34) HP, 17 Atk, 95 (96) Hit, 9 (10) AS, 4 Def, 0 (1) Res, 5 Crit

Archer (Steel Bow): 28 (29) HP, 17 (18) Atk, 105 Hit, 9 (10) AS, 2 (3) Def, 0 (1) Res, 5 Crit

Mage (ElFire): 22 HP, 20 Atk, 103 (104) Hit, 8 AS, 2 Def, 3 Res, 4 Crit

Katarina (Elfire): 30 HP, 24 Atk, 105 (106) Hit, 8 (9) AS, 3 Def, 3 Res, 5 Crit

Lvl 5 Thief (Steel Sword): 29 (30) HP, 19 (20) Atk, 112 (113) Hit, 13 (14) AS, 2 (3) Def, 0 Res, 6 Crit

Bandit (Hand Axe): Same as initial Bandits

*Drops a Vulnerary

Edited July 22, 2010 by Ari Gold

[Dr. Tarrasque]

http://www.mediafire.com/?p7dwgp3n6hoitsr

1-4 enemy stats. The screens have the highest ATK of that particular enemy. The rest of the stats may vary by 1.

[Don Draper]

http://www.mediafire.com/?p7dwgp3n6hoitsr

1-4 enemy stats. The screens have the highest ATK of that particular enemy. The rest of the stats may vary by 1.

Awesome, thank you very much Sirius. Once I'm done with the prologue, I'll start copying down battle statistics from those screens/Paperblade's videos.

[Colonel M]

It's up to you. I don't mind collecting stats and noting stuff like reinforcements | mechanics of the maps.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

Actually a Good Character in Prologue

Prologues 3 and 4, maybe. Then he gets overwritten by Merric for the rest of it's duration.

btw, nobody answered me. How much should Athena's prologue utility override her being absolutely useless in the maingame?

On another note, I started collecting enemy stats. I won't make another topic yet, since somebody else (bblade?) might want to do them for the whole game and I don't really want to do them past the prologue if possible.

I'm not going to attempt Lunatic again until I can plan out a decent team and such; so don't wait up for me.

As for Belf and Raiden, I can agree they're kinda screwed (seal for outdoing Abel probably isn't worth it, but I didn't get a good look at Abel anyway), but I think you guys are being a bit too hasty on Robert. He's got pretty decent bases as Hero (36 HP 11 str 18 spd 9 def) and doable weapon ranks (D and then some, no slayers, but just steel's workable since it'd only be on dragons, and eff robert fighting dragons) He's not the best unit in the world or anything but I could name you off guys that are way worse. Heck, just him fitting into the horseman class (if he is that fucked as Hero, which me might be, didn't get far into lunatic) for mobile chip right away tells me he's nowhere near as boned as those two are.

I don't even remember what Robbo's starting bow rank is. D? C? Even B? If it's B, then he's definitely not rubbish. Also, Longbows don't seem to be sniper-locked anymore (but I didn't see any in the maingame, maybe they're in shops I didn't go to because of funds issues) so that wouldn't hurt him at all either.

Edited July 19, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Rewjeo]

Athena could probably scrape up some sort of utility in the main game with an instant promotion and A swords. Wouldn't be great, but I think that that along with her prologue utility could get her into a decent spot.

[_____]

As for Belf and Raiden, I can agree they're kinda screwed (seal for outdoing Abel probably isn't worth it, but I didn't get a good look at Abel anyway)

Actually, this game shoves Master Seals down your throat. I'd say that the cost of taking a seal is almost nothing.

but I think you guys are being a bit too hasty on Robert. He's got pretty decent bases as Hero (36 HP 11 str 18 spd 9 def) and doable weapon ranks (D and then some, no slayers, but just steel's workable since it'd only be on dragons, and eff robert fighting dragons) He's not the best unit in the world or anything but I could name you off guys that are way worse. Heck, just him fitting into the horseman class (if he is that fucked as Hero, which me might be, didn't get far into lunatic) for mobile chip right away tells me he's nowhere near as boned as those two are.

That problem is that Robert changing into a Hero (for Chapter 13, at least) doesn't help him at all. It just serves to take away 1 point of attack to stop him from getting doubled by Flying Dragons, where he doesn't even want to touch them if he doesn't have Bows, anyway. Also, early-promoted Raiden, at least, isn't exactly far off from getting Silvers, and Raiden has a way to be 3HKOd by Bandits (it requires the +2 defense orb shard, though).

I don't know whether Raiden is better than Robert or not, but it's not a blowout for either side.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ninji

[Rewjeo]

Hmm, Athena's still pretty bad with a promotion, but here are her stats:

31 HP

11 STR

1 MAG

14 SKl

15 SPD

6 LUK

9 DEF

3 RES

A Swords

Uh, that's not doubling in NM, and is easily 2HKOd. Heck, Paladin Athena is ORKOd in NM by all the Ice Dragons. Yeah, she sucks now.

Just for laughs, though, let's look at her offense!

With a Lady Sword, she's got 26 ATK, 117 HIT.

Master Sword gives her 37 CRIT on that.

Dragon Sword gives her 35 effective MT.

Sniper Athena with a Killer Bow has 22 ATK, 30 CRIT, 99 HIT. 11 SPD. At least that's 38 on fliers.

[grandjackal]

If I could have Robert, Belf and Raiden's base stats again, that would be great.

[_____]

[Rewjeo]

I've actually been using Robert, but I Belf has 35 HP, 14 STR, 0 MAG, 15 SKL, 12 SPD, 8 LUK, 12 DEF, 0 RES C Lances D Swords and Raiden 34 HP, 12 STR, 0 MAG, 14 SKL, 15 SPD, 10 LUK, 11 DEF, 1 RES C Lances D Swords

Edit: Est is level 5 with C Lances, 20 HP, 6 STR, 2 MAG, 7 SKL, 13 SPD, 11 LUK, 8 DEF, 6 RES.

Abel has 32 HP, 13 STR, 1 MAG, 14 SKL, 15 SPD, 7 LUK, 14 DEF, 6 RES, D Swords, B Lances.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Slize

[grandjackal]

2 speed shards/a wing and a seal, switching Raiden to Swordmaster gets him to 24 speed along with C Swords, enough for a dragonslayer. You could also choose to give him those shards/wing without the seal so he can just use Pikes in the mean time, since he'd at least avoid getting doubled by dragons.

Robert could always go General, problem is I don't know how effective 40 HP with 17 Def would be. Again, might need shards in some form.

Belf might be up shit creek. Best he can must with speed in this state is to go Myrmidon to ech out 17 speed. It wouldn't be so bad if they had decided to give him C Swords instead of lances.

*Sees Abel's bases*

Wow, I could promote Raiden immediately and he'd smoke Abel. He'd have C rank Swords, 2 more speed, 1 more Str, plenty more HP, 8 more Luck and only would lose 1 Def.

Poor Abel.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Don Draper]

2 speed shards/a wing and a seal, switching Raiden to Swordmaster gets him to 24 speed along with C Swords, enough for a dragonslayer. You could also choose to give him those shards/wing without the seal so he can just use Pikes in the mean time, since he'd at least avoid getting doubled by dragons.

Robert could always go General, problem is I don't know how effective 40 HP with 17 Def would be. Again, might need shards in some form.

Belf might be up shit creek. Best he can must with speed in this state is to go Myrmidon to ech out 17 speed. It wouldn't be so bad if they had decided to give him C Swords instead of lances.

*Sees Abel's bases*

Wow, I could promote Raiden immediately and he'd smoke Abel. He'd have C rank Swords, 2 more speed, 1 more Str, plenty more HP, 8 more Luck and only would lose 1 Def.

Poor Abel.

Being better then Abel isn't really saying a whole lot.

EDIT: Abel has 2 more speed then Raiden, not the other way around.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ari Gold

[_____]

He's better than Abel a few chapters earlier than Abel, though.

All three still suck, though.

[grandjackal]

Being better then Abel isn't really saying a whole lot.

*Points to the 24 AS being possible upon just joining with the right resources*

He's capable of actually being useful, since 24 AS doubles dragons, and he'd have C swords while being close to B from Swordmaster bonus, and C gets us Dragonslayers. So wham, he's capable of being useful at the cost of a bit of resources.

As for his avoid, 24 speed with 15 Luck and Swordmaster boost nets him approximately 41 avoid. Not quite sure how effective that is with dragons, but I recall you saying that it would matter. I would think 41 avoid would count as pretty hefty.

Also, you mixed up Raiden with Belf, Raiden's got the same base speed unpromoted.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[_____]

Everyone wants a Speedwing. Why should we bother giving one to Raiden so he can be mini-Malice?

[grandjackal]

Everyone wants a Speedwing. Why should we bother giving one to Raiden so he can be mini-Malice?

Cause Raiden required no training to be able to do this at base.

[Don Draper]

Lets lay this to rest then.

15/1 Swordmaster Leiden: 38 HP/12 Str/23 Skl/22 Spd/10 Lck/10 Def

Base Swordmaster Abel: 32 HP/11 Str/20 Skl/21 Spd/7 Lck/12 Def

I fail to see a significant difference (+1 Str/Spd, but -2 Def)

[Rewjeo]

Leiden has 6 HP, 1 STR, 3 SKL, 1 SPD, and 3 LUK and 1 RES. Abel has 2 DEF. Leiden also has 4 chapters of availability (13, 13x, 14, and like 95% of 15) over Abel. He can probably grab, say, 3 levels in that time, too. And he's been helping us with dragons for three of those chapters.

[grandjackal]

Lets lay this to rest then.

15/1 Swordmaster Leiden: 38 HP/12 Str/23 Skl/22 Spd/10 Lck/10 Def

Base Swordmaster Abel: 32 HP/11 Str/20 Skl/21 Spd/7 Lck/12 Def

I fail to see a significant difference (+1 Str/Spd, but -2 Def)

You then gave Raiden 2 speed shards or a wing and then realize that he can double dragons with Dragonslayer. Because he joins in a portion of the game that has dragons.

For the third time I've had to point that out, are you just pretending to miss it every time?