H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[Blutritter]

This isn't the place to post your half-cocked cooked up tier lists.

It's not half-cocked, snot. For 50% game clear, it looks more sensible than your half-assed attempt. Hey, you're bringing it on yourself.

Also, healers aren't promoting. At least, they shouldn't be, and even after they do, it's not like they're seeing any real combat.

OK, what is this bullshit? I don't know if you've noticed, but healers level quickly even without trying to drag out any chapters. When holding a defense on the bridges at both sides of the fort vs. promoted enemies on chapter 8 while trying to rout them efficiently (except Astram, I suppose), lots of healing is appreciated. Dancing plus vulneraries isn't going to suffice.

Desert mage: 28/0/12/13/13/0/4/4

Malliesia 20/1: 34/1/13/10/17/20/9/13

Her level could be viably higher. ORKO with 5 might Fire vs. 3RKO by Volcannon. As a bishop. When you have lots of people at single-digit or near zero HP after a counter. Furthermore, can go a round with a dragon knight from a swarm before and still live. No need for cover or to go hide away from the main group.

[grandjackal]

The notion is not that farfetched. With the perfection of a certain strategy, you can basically play the game off a piece of paper if you wanted to. Of course, we haven't reached that point yet. But on like, FEDS, it's certainly possible.

Well yeah, that's because half of FEDS is basically "Warp boss killer, kill boss, Warp Marth, take throne" halfway through it. This game, actual fighting has to be done. In the least, it takes significantly longer time to complete the chapters as they come.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Nah, since you just plug your ears and go "RULESET" when a unit is clearly better or worse than another, I'm the one who's done with you. You have fun tiering half the units in the game and ignoring the fact that some of the bottom half of the cast are more useless than others. You want me out, I'm out.

There's a distinct difference between me plugging my ears and you simply not bothering to read the OP of a goddamn tier list, because not only did you miss the fact that Radd was in the exact tier you wanted him in, you made arguments based on the idea that Bottom was ordered (the rules state it isn't) and that being forced deployment gives units a free pass out of being useless.

I never said that characters in Free Silvers are lower than Bottom, I said that there has to be an explicit reason that a Free Silvers unit will be at least in Low or Mid in order to even bother trying to tier them. You made these assumptions, and now you're the one plugging your ears.

Have fun not participating in the tier list. "And nothing of value was lost."

Back to the actual point, which is not a bunch of meta argument bullshit!

GJ's argument for Maris has convinced me. I'm going to be making a couple changes soon, including:

- Tiki/Nagi immediately below Jeorge

- Rody to top of Low

- Maris immediately below Rody near top of Low- I want to preserve the tier gap between her and Navarre, but she has utility and some potential longevity.

- Palla to bottom of Top

- Arran to bottom of High

- Sirius to above Luke but below Shiida

- Merric above Jeorge

Feel free to argue for/against any of these changes.

Also, new rule: Potions are not assumed.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Don Draper]

It's not half-cocked, snot. For 50% game clear, it looks more sensible than your half-assed attempt. Hey, you're bringing it on yourself.

OK, what is this bullshit? I don't know if you've noticed, but healers level quickly even without trying to drag out any chapters. When holding a defense on the bridges at both sides of the fort vs. promoted enemies on chapter 8 while trying to rout them efficiently (except Astram, I suppose), lots of healing is appreciated. Dancing plus vulneraries isn't going to suffice.

Desert mage: 28/0/12/13/13/0/4/4

Malliesia 20/1: 34/1/13/10/17/20/9/13

Her level could be viably higher. ORKO with 5 might Fire vs. 3RKO by Volcannon. As a bishop. When you have lots of people at single-digit or near zero HP after a counter. Furthermore, can go a round with a dragon knight from a swarm before and still live. No need for cover or to go hide away from the main group.

WTF, Mallessia is NOT going to be 20/1 by Chapter 9. No fucking way. Paperblade had her at 13/0 by that time, and even then he took chapters much more slowly due to not having any foresight (he was the first person on the board to play through all of Lunatic). Therefore her level should realistically be lower, probably around 11/0 by that time.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Ari Gold

[arvilino]

This isn't the place to post your half-cocked cooked up tier lists. Want to suggest changes to THIS one? Sure, post here. Otherwise, keep that shit outta here.

Also, healers aren't promoting. At least, they shouldn't be, and even after they do, it's not like they're seeing any real combat.

EDIT: Yeah yeah, Dolph/Macellan are forced. Doesn't mean they're good and/or even marginally acceptable at any point in time.

I think Mallesia is actually healer(and the only one) that should be promoted. Her 40% magic growth rate and 60% speed growth as a cleric gives her 15.4 speed and 10.4 magic at level 20. Thats 14 magic and 16 speed as a 20/1 Sage(plus her Magic growths boosts to 50% at this point). Infact since she can use the Shaver and Nosferatu upon promotion, with the A rank in staffs she'll have by that point. To me she warrants a Master Seal more than Merric does if you didn't have to use him.

[dondon151]

It's not half-cocked, snot. For 50% game clear, it looks more sensible than your half-assed attempt. Hey, you're bringing it on yourself.

SDS consulted with me, Paperblade, IOS, and Colonel M in #feto for this list. I can assure you, we've probably put more thought into this list than you have into yours, considering it's, you know, 5 people to 1.

OK, what is this bullshit? I don't know if you've noticed, but healers level quickly even without trying to drag out any chapters. When holding a defense on the bridges at both sides of the fort vs. promoted enemies on chapter 8 while trying to rout them efficiently (except Astram, I suppose), lots of healing is appreciated. Dancing plus vulneraries isn't going to suffice.

Desert mage: 28/0/12/13/13/0/4/4

Malliesia 20/1: 34/1/13/10/17/20/9/13

Her level could be viably higher. ORKO with 5 might Fire vs. 3RKO by Volcannon. As a bishop. When you have lots of people at single-digit or near zero HP after a counter. Furthermore, can go a round with a dragon knight from a swarm before and still live. No need for cover or to go hide away from the main group.

I don't know what kinds of turtling strategies you employ, but you are falling into the same trap that early FEDS tier list debaters did: healers do not level quickly under the assumption of efficient play. Furthermore, the gains from promoting healers are minimal. They have 6 move compared to promoted 7-8 move for most foot units and 10 move for paladins, FKs, and DKs. Good luck blitzing with general equivalent move.

Edited July 26, 2010 by dondon151

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It's not half-cocked, snot. For 50% game clear, it looks more sensible than your half-assed attempt. Hey, you're bringing it on yourself.

OK, what is this bullshit? I don't know if you've noticed, but healers level quickly even without trying to drag out any chapters. When holding a defense on the bridges at both sides of the fort vs. promoted enemies on chapter 8 while trying to rout them efficiently (except Astram, I suppose), lots of healing is appreciated. Dancing plus vulneraries isn't going to suffice.

Desert mage: 28/0/12/13/13/0/4/4

Malliesia 20/1: 34/1/13/10/17/20/9/13

Her level could be viably higher. ORKO with 5 might Fire vs. 3RKO by Volcannon. As a bishop. When you have lots of people at single-digit or near zero HP after a counter. Furthermore, can go a round with a dragon knight from a swarm before and still live. No need for cover or to go hide away from the main group.

@Blutritter: Let's just go down the list and point out the first 3 issues that I have with your lists:

1: Malliesia 20/1 by Ch8? What planet do you live on?

2: Rody in high above Draug? Rody is literally worse at everything compared to Cav!Draug.

3: Navarre in high? Above Arran? Above Frey?

In fact, let's go a little farther.

Caesar/Radd not in bottom?

Warren above Ryan, despite the fact that he is literally worse in EVERY SINGLE WAY?

[arvilino]

This isn't the place to post your half-cocked cooked up tier lists. Want to suggest changes to THIS one? Sure, post here. Otherwise, keep that shit outta here.

Also, healers aren't promoting. At least, they shouldn't be, and even after they do, it's not like they're seeing any real combat.

EDIT: Yeah yeah, Dolph/Macellan are forced. Doesn't mean they're good and/or even marginally acceptable at any point in time.

I think Mallesia is actually healer(and the only one) that should be promoted. Her 40% magic growth rate and 60% speed growth as a cleric gives her 15.4 speed and 10.4 magic at level 20. Thats 14 magic and 16 speed as a 20/1 Sage(plus her Magic growths boosts to 50% at this point). Infact since she can use the Shaver and Nosferatu upon promotion, with the A rank in staffs she'll have by that point. To me she warrants a Master Seal more than Merric does if you didn't have to use him.

WTF, Mallessia is NOT going to be 20/1 by Chapter 9. No fucking way. Paperblade had her at 13/0 by that time, and even then he took chapters much more slowly due to not having any foresight (he was the first person on the board to play through all of Lunatic). Therefore her level should realistically be lower, probably around 11/0 by that time.

She wouldn't be that low. I had her at 20 by the end of Chapter 10 and promoted her just before the start of 10x.

[Don Draper]

She wouldn't be that low. I had her at 20 by the end of Chapter 10 and promoted her just before the start of 10x.

Again, this tier list isn't assuming turtling strategies with ridiculously high turncounts. Healers are not realistically leveling quickly in a low turncount playthrough.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Well this list actually looks pretty good. Not perfect of course but for a base framework it's pretty good. Can't argue to much considering I haven't played the game. I like the free silvers tier. Very smart of you to just throw all non viable characters into one tier and just say no. I would move the healers/my unit tier to the absolute top since it gives the impression that their bad to idiots who might come reading this topic.

Prevents useless debates that contribute nothing to efficiency.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Mr. Francis York Morgan

[grandjackal]

Caesar/Radd not in bottom?

Why would they not be bottom? They barely qualify as better than Samuto. In fact, Raddy's just a weaker version of Sammy while Ceasar's just a slightly tougher one. All 3 of them don't have the speed it takes to be useful. Freaking Navarre barely has the speed to muster.

Sammy and these 2 clowns should basically be right next to eachother (The trio of which I am now dubbing the joker, the smoker and the midnight toker)

Warren above Ryan, despite the fact that he is literally worse in EVERY SINGLE WAY?

Ryan again has the utility of prologue (even dondon has pointed out before that he simply makes it possible unless you're using MU Armor), so no, Warren wouldn't be above him if just on that. Only thing I see Warren's got going for him is superior bases and 1 more move, but I'm not 100% sure how much utility Warren can muster from his join time onward.

[Don Draper]

Grandjackal, he was pointing out flaws in the other tier list posted <_<

[Blutritter]

SDS consulted with me, Paperblade, IOS, and Colonel M in #feto for this list. I can assure you, we've probably put more thought into this list than you have into yours, considering it's, you know, 5 people to 1.

I don't know what kinds of turtling strategies you employ, but you are falling into the same trap that early FEDS tier list debaters did: healers do not level quickly under the assumption of efficient play. Furthermore, the gains from promoting healers are minimal. They have 6 move compared to promoted 7-8 move for most foot units and 10 move for paladins, FKs, and DKs. Good luck blitzing with general equivalent move.

Uh......like I said, no turtling was involved. All those heads knocking and yet you don't seem to realize how much staff EXP exceeds that of combat. Just speak for yourself. Those other superior movement classes more suited for enemy phase still can't use staves, and badly hurting units is not a rarity. BTW, you might as well be upfront with me and quit mincing. I know how heated your interest is in low turn counts, but this site isn't Speed Demos Archive, and this game isn't Shadow Dragon. No warp is received early, and you have to be somewhat conservative with rescue + hammerne because the latter vanishes after only 3 uses and I think it's given you're going to want the former to last as far as lategame.

Furthermore, the gains from promoting healers are minimal.

Oh, please. Yeah, every bit as minimal as promoting some healer from any other Fire Emblem because healing + attacking <<<< healing as command options. Gains are gains, dude.

They have 6 move compared to promoted 7-8 move for most foot units and 10 move for paladins, FKs, and DKs. Good luck blitzing with general equivalent move.

Meaning it's easier for them to reach some pure melee who might be retreating from elsewhere or can't subsist off vulneraries alone or only for so long.

Warren above Ryan, despite the fact that he is literally worse in EVERY SINGLE WAY?

One more movement and higher bases for a ranged unit = worse? What makes extra chip damage for the prologue so much better than requiring mad attention to reach Warren's starting speed?

[grandjackal]

Grandjackal, he was pointing out flaws in the other tier list posted <_<

...In which case...I uhh...Fleshed out the arguments as to help SDS with pointing out flaws in the other tier list. ;;>>

[Super Mecha Death Christ]

Forgive me for being an idiot, but what's Free Silver and No Contest? I mean, no contest sounds obvious, right, but if so, why isn't it just the highest tier?

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Forgive me for being an idiot, but what's Free Silver and No Contest? I mean, no contest sounds obvious, right, but if so, why isn't it just the highest tier?

Free Silver is the only benefit you provide to the team is your starting weapon. All of these characters suck at join time. Healing/Trading doesn't count for utility. Thus the only benefit they may provide on a run is the weapon they give you which may or may not be worth actually getting.

Basically it's super duper bottom tier.

No contest is a giant seize/healer/thief/my unit argument of epic proportions.

[Super Mecha Death Christ]

Free Silver is the only benefit you provide to the team is your starting weapon. All of these characters suck at join time. Healing/Trading doesn't count for utility. Thus the only benefit they may provide on a run is the weapon they give you which may or may not be worth actually getting.

Basically it's super duper bottom tier.

Wow, really? So Michalis is that bad? He looks pretty decent to me. Then again, I don't know his growth rates and stuff.

[Paperblade]

One more movement and higher bases for a ranged unit = worse? What makes extra chip damage for the prologue so much better than requiring mad attention to reach Warren's starting speed?

Merged class sets. Ryan can go Hunter. Warren's only real lead is 2 base Speed, but if Ryan is level 5 or above, he doesn't even have that.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Wow, really? So Michalis is that bad? He looks pretty decent to me. Then again, I don't know his growth rates and stuff.

With merged class sets he would actually have 28 base speed as a swordmaster.

[Sploosh]

He can go Hero and keep his Axe rank too.

[Blutritter]

Merged class sets.

Don't care about those atm. You're not taking into account the first completion of Lunatic which is still required to unlock them and is every bit as valid, besides.

[grandjackal]

Merged class sets. Ryan can go Hunter. Warren's only real lead is 2 base Speed, but if Ryan is level 5 or above, he doesn't even have that.

Speaking of which, Gordon as a hunter ties in speed, wins in HP and ties Def while having a whopping 3 more Str and more availability.

[dondon151]

Uh......like I said, no turtling was involved. All those heads knocking and yet you don't seem to realize how much staff EXP exceeds that of combat. Just speak for yourself. Those other superior movement classes more suited for enemy phase still can't use staves, and badly hurting units is not a rarity. BTW, you might as well be upfront with me and quit mincing.

We're drawing on Paperblade's full H3 experience and our collective experience with staff users in ever other FE game. Aside from the empirical evidence, drawing a logical conclusion from previous games dictates that staff EXP is difficult to obtain.

My customer service background prevents me from being brazenly inflammatory. I'm sorry, I can't help it.

I know how heated your interest is in low turn counts, but this site isn't Speed Demos Archive, and this game isn't Shadow Dragon. No warp is received early, and you have to be somewhat conservative with rescue + hammerne because the latter vanishes after only 3 uses and I think it's given you're going to want the former to last as far as lategame.

It is not up to you to decide what the objective of the tier list is. If you don't have a clear objective in mind, you cannot tier units with precision. Furthermore, Shadow Dragon or not, the game still gives you enough resources to rush through chapters. Warp didn't make much of a difference in Shadow Dragon until midgame, and earlygame enemies hit about as hard as they do in both games.

Oh, please. Yeah, every bit as minimal as promoting some healer from any other Fire Emblem because healing + attacking <<<< healing as command options. Gains are gains, dude.

Compared to DK, FK, paladin, swordmaster, sniper, hero, and berserker, healer promotion gains pale in comparison. Think about it this way: when you promote a healer, your only option is to remain in a magic class. When you promote a class set A unit, you get access to both flying and grounded 10 move classes plus automatic access to Wyrmslayer as SM. When you promote a class set B unit, if he used axes, he gets access to the class with the second highest base spd and an offensive powerhouse. Physical units are incredibly more versatile than magic units.

Meaning it's easier for them to reach some pure melee who might be retreating from elsewhere or can't subsist off vulneraries alone or only for so long.

Explain to me how 6 move is better than 5 move at catching up to 8 or 10 move. If you're left in the dust, it does not matter if you are left in the dust by hair or by a furlong.

One more movement and higher bases for a ranged unit = worse? What makes extra chip damage for the prologue so much better than requiring mad attention to reach Warren's starting speed?

The assumption that Ryan and Warren make poor long term units, that's what. If you kicked out, say, Luke in order to train Warren, would you think that Warren has actually helped you at all? Now, I admit that archers are incredibly clutch against the earlygame DKs (I put them there in the first place), but this sort of situational utility can only extend so far.

Don't care about those atm. You're not taking into account the first completion of Lunatic which is still required to unlock them and is every bit as valid, besides.

I'm pretty sure that you do not need to complete H3 in order to merge the class sets.

Edited July 26, 2010 by dondon151

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Don't care about those atm. You're not taking into account the first completion of Lunatic which is still required to unlock them and is every bit as valid, besides.

Unlocked after beating HARD mode.

Also, Berserker Michalis. 24 SPD, boosted Axe WEXP so he's closer to using A rank Axe and he'll grow to avoid being doubled by most enemies. If that doesn't work, Hero class.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Sirius

[Super Mecha Death Christ]

So it seems I'm right to suspect Michalis being too low in the list. You have to keep in mind that people will class swap in the game.