Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[Rewjeo]

I don't think that Eph. Duessel should move down. Let's look at it this way: Duessel joins in Chapter 10, and he is simply the best character you have in terms of combat. He is the most durable, is fast enough to double most enemy types and 2HKO with a Javelin or Hand Axe, and is likely the only person who can wield the Silver Axe against Beran, the Deathgoyle, or the Cyclops, and your best Garm canditate. He's also good with the Dragon Axe against Valter. Now, if you compare this to Gerik, who joins significantly later and lacks the same awesome durability of Duessel (better speed, though). Clearly, Duessel is significantly better and deserves a tier gap between the two.

It should be noted that while Ephraim has his own PRF weapon, Innes has Nidhogg, which while not quite prf, has basically no competition because Neimi is so bad.

So Franz is our best unit for 9 (and a half-ish) chapters prior to Duessel's existence. Not just best, either, hugely better than everyone else. Then Duessel shows up and has generally better stats and axes, but has significantly less speed (although he is doubling a lot, Franz will double more) and two less MOV. Franz shouldn't be a tier up on him for that? Gerik should be lower, anyways. He's currently above Kyle/Forde.

That's a good point.

At a glance:

-Eir Eirika at the top of High seems off; sword lock, meh durability, and meh offense excepting Rapier and post promotion, but then again, the rest of the people in high aren't easy picks to go over her.

-Tana three tiers below Vanessa?

-Moulder and Natasha should both go up. Sethless restores the importance of their healing.

-What prompted Artur > Lute? MK > Bishop, both suck at durability, and Lute's offense is better for longer in the game, IIRC.

-Consider Eph Gerik vs Joshua: at its core 7 1/2 chapters vs axes on promotion. Mind you, Josh is pretty cool during early on, sporting probably the best offense until Ephraim and his defense isn't too much of a problem. He's also got Audhulma pretty much locked up.

-Eph Duessel is cool and should stay in top.

-Eirika is forced the entire game so everything she does is automatically a positive. And she is very helpful early game without Seth thanks to WTA. I guess the prologue is ignored, but in Chapter 1 she is one third of your army, and her AVO can be very helpful against the fighters. I'm not particularly opposed to her falling some, though, just not too far.

-I can see that. Bookframing the High/Upper Mid tier break is too low.

-Artur has 10 MT/8 CRIT/8 AS to Lute's 11 MT/3 CRIT/6 AS. That 2 AS means that he's 4-5 levels closer to doubling consistently, and an 8% chance to KO an enemy on top of his higher AS means that he'll be much better than Lute much sooner. And later we don't really need her offense on PP much. Better than not having it, but not as nice as having it earlier.

-Does Franz not deserve to be a tier up on Duessel?

[Shadow Mir]

Not saying he HAS to promote. It's just the idea that he can use Elfire immediately with no AS loss.

Either way, I don't think it's enough for him to move up.

[Radiant Dragon]

Not saying he HAS to promote. It's just the idea that he can use Elfire immediately with no AS loss.

Moulder has to promote to use Elfire.

-Does Franz not deserve to be a tier up on Duessel?

Not in my opinion. I think Duessel easily deserves Top Tier, along with Vanessa.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

-Moulder doesn't have to promote at level 10. He needs to wait anyway because Artur and Lute should get the first two rings. Plus, their MAG is higher so better healing. Especially Artur who gets an instant C in staves. He gets Physic faster and does better with it.

[Rewjeo]

Not in my opinion. I think Duessel easily deserves Top Tier, along with Vanessa.

Have you played a run like this? In chapters 2 and 3 Franz is your best unit both offensively and defensively. In four he's like second defensively and still best offensively. He has the second best MOV possible, and I wouldn't want him to fly, anyways. He makes great use of forests/forts. This whole best offense thing is unchallenged for a long time, and his durability starts to overtake Gilliam's pretty quickly. He takes on the role of Seth in Seth's absence- that role being saving a bajillion turns. Would you care to argue that Duessel has anything that compares to this?

[Radiant Dragon]

Have you played a run like this? In chapters 2 and 3 Franz is your best unit both offensively and defensively. In four he's like second defensively and still best offensively. He has the second best MOV possible, and I wouldn't want him to fly, anyways. He makes great use of forests/forts. This whole best offense thing is unchallenged for a long time, and his durability starts to overtake Gilliam's pretty quickly. He takes on the role of Seth in Seth's absence- that role being saving a bajillion turns. Would you care to argue that Duessel has anything that compares to this?

I'm aware Franz is the best non-Seth unit in the game, thank you. Remember though, that Franz is not Seth. He's not so much better than everyone else to deserve his own Tier at the top of the list.

[Rewjeo]

If that's the case, why did I have him at level 14 by the end of chapter 6? It's not because I made sure he got a lot of kills. It's because he was just so good that it was most efficient to have him do things, and as time went on he became better and better. And he was slightly screwed, too. I'll just look at the first few chapters here without Franz:

Chapter 1: Enjoy fort/vulnerary spamming with Eirika and Gilliam.

Chapter 2: What are you going to do without Franz? Gilliam is doubled without luck, and his offense isn't anything to boast about here, either. lolvanessaagainstaxes. lolross. Are you gunna rush to recruit Garcia and forest tank with him and Eirika?

Chapter 3: Well, I guess Gilliam has his uses against the sword/bow enemies, but against axes we're left with just Eirika and Garcia (and sorta Colm) to deal with the axe guys.

Chapter 4: When I did this, Franz basically soloed that bottom right section. I guess we're letting the other people fight off the other enemies, then move down there instead of doing it all simultaneously.

Chapter 5: Enjoy fighting on all those fronts and getting the villages with still so few frontliners.

Chapter 6: I had Franz at level 11 here at the start, and he was responsible for the final charge to the boss. I guess someone not on a horse is plodding along to the boss, and it'll be harder to deal with the initial enemies, too.

So we've now taken, what, a dozen more turns with less reliable strategies? We've still got three more chapters before Duessel shows up, too. Show that Duessel or Vanessa have that kind of impact, please. I don't see it.

[Radiant Dragon]

So we've now taken, what, a dozen more turns with less reliable strategies? We've still got three more chapters before Duessel shows up, too. Show that Duessel or Vanessa have that kind of impact, please. I don't see it.

How was that comparison relevant? We're not actively avoiding Franz, and I'm not trying to argue Vanessa/Duessel > Franz.

Vanessa may need to be fed kills for a few level ups, but after chapter 4 she should be able to pull her weight, and then performs utility that Franz can not by being a flier. Duessel has better stats than Franz will (except for Speed and Move) when he joins and has better weapon ranks.

Franz does not deserve to be a tier above Vanessa and Duessel, since they have useful utility that Franz lacks (flying/ORKOing while never dying).

[Rewjeo]

How was that comparison relevant? We're not actively avoiding Franz, and I'm not trying to argue Vanessa/Duessel > Franz.

Well, we have to gauge units based on their impact on our turncount, no? I demonstrating what he does for us earlygame. Or are we just not giving him credit for his contributions?

Vanessa may need to be fed kills for a few level ups, but after chapter 4 she should be able to pull her weight, and then performs utility that Franz can not by being a flier. Duessel has better stats than Franz will (except for Speed and Move) when he joins and has better weapon ranks.

Vanessa has awful combat in chapter 2 and 3 (and I mean AWFUL) and I doubt that there's an efficient way of getting her enough EXP in chapter four to make her good at fighting. I mean, even if she gets three level ups, she's pulling 13 MT/10 AS with an iron lance and 10 MT/13 AS with a slim lance. And I'll remind you that enemies are hitting 7 AS in chapter 2, and this is now chapter 5. She either has issues doubling and still probably like 3-4HKOs or doubles just fine but like 4-5HKOs. And 18.5 HP with 6.6 DEF isn't too durable, either. Best case scenario, she is 3HKOd by 14 MT, which I expect some enemies, especially axers, reach. Worst case scenario, she's 3HKOd by 12 MT and 2HKOd by 15 MT. I don't have enemy stats, so I can't say anything for certain, but those are numbers I'm not too comfortable with.

How much are those doing for Duessel, though? Is Franz having problems surviving or ORKOing?

Franz does not deserve to be a tier above Vanessa and Duessel, since they have useful utility that Franz lacks (flying/ORKOing while never dying).

For Vanessa, there's not all that much use for flying early on. Rescuing Ross in chapter 2, getting Lute in chapter 4 (if she's worth getting), getting a village in chapter 2 and 5- one of which is just a pure water, not too terribly useful, and maybe saving the villagers in chapter 6, depending on whether or not she can handle the enemies and if the Orion's Bolt is worth that much. Chapter 7 is big enough that someone might want to be ferried. Then Tana shows up and Vanessa doesn't get full credit for flight anymore- in Eirika's route, Tana's even in the perfect spot to get the rapier village. Then Cormag shows up.

Again, you can assert that Franz fails to ORKO and dies too easily all you want, I doubt that's the case. I don't have access to enemy stats from that chapter, but please do prove me wrong. And you still failed to address how either of them has as much of an impact as Franz does earlygame. "flying/ORKOing while never dying" is not proof.

[-Cynthia-]

For Vanessa, there's not all that much use for flying early on. Rescuing Ross in chapter 2, getting Lute in chapter 4 (if she's worth getting), getting a village in chapter 2 and 5- one of which is just a pure water, not too terribly useful, and maybe saving the villagers in chapter 6, depending on whether or not she can handle the enemies and if the Orion's Bolt is worth that much. Chapter 7 is big enough that someone might want to be ferried. Then Tana shows up and Vanessa doesn't get full credit for flight anymore- in Eirika's route, Tana's even in the perfect spot to get the rapier village. Then Cormag shows up.

Again, you can assert that Franz fails to ORKO and dies too easily all you want, I doubt that's the case. I don't have access to enemy stats from that chapter, but please do prove me wrong. And you still failed to address how either of them has as much of an impact as Franz does earlygame. "flying/ORKOing while never dying" is not proof.

You have to visit all the Ch5 villages to get the Guiding Ring, and Vanessa does this faster than anyone else.

I'll also note that recruiting Ross means we get Garcia. Without Vanessa around to save Ross, he's most likely dead and no Garcia recruited.

[Radiant Dragon]

How can I provide 'proof' on a matter of opinion? It is my opinion that Franz does not deserve to be a tier over the others because he doesn't ORKO and never die from the moment he joins (he reaches that point eventually obviously, but so do a multitude of units). It is your opinion he does because he saves more turns than any other unit.

What does everyone else think?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

-Eirika is forced the entire game so everything she does is automatically a positive. And she is very helpful early game without Seth thanks to WTA. I guess the prologue is ignored, but in Chapter 1 she is one third of your army, and her AVO can be very helpful against the fighters. I'm not particularly opposed to her falling some, though, just not too far.

After trying Sethless, I realized I forgot how cool Eirika's earlygame was. Then again, it goes downhill from there, where I haven't played yet.

-I can see that. Bookframing the High/Upper Mid tier break is too low.

What's this referring to/mean?

-Artur has 10 MT/8 CRIT/8 AS to Lute's 11 MT/3 CRIT/6 AS. That 2 AS means that he's 4-5 levels closer to doubling consistently, and an 8% chance to KO an enemy on top of his higher AS means that he'll be much better than Lute much sooner. And later we don't really need her offense on PP much. Better than not having it, but not as nice as having it earlier.

I seem to recall Artur failing to secure ORKOs when doubling early, which lead to a 2RKO vs 2RKO offense comparison. Even despite the initial speed lead, it's not that hard to surmount, and when Lute does get there, she is clearly better for the rest of the game.

-Does Franz not deserve to be a tier up on Duessel?

No. To elaborate:

Have you played a run like this? In chapters 2 and 3 Franz is your best unit both offensively and defensively. In four he's like second defensively and still best offensively. He has the second best MOV possible, and I wouldn't want him to fly, anyways. He makes great use of forests/forts. This whole best offense thing is unchallenged for a long time, and his durability starts to overtake Gilliam's pretty quickly. He takes on the role of Seth in Seth's absence- that role being saving a bajillion turns. Would you care to argue that Duessel has anything that compares to this?

I tried Sethless earlier, and Eirika is definitely better than Franz through Chapter 4, at least. To start with, I don't know how you would claim Franz has better offense than Eirika when he fails to double everything in Chapter 2, and most everything in Chapter 3. Additionally, while he is concretely better defensively, he is no where near good enough to charge ahead and save turns like Seth does and in relation, Eirika's avoid is good enough. In Chapter 3 (and 2, really), he's also worse than Garcia since Garcia's key for knocking down walls and is better offensively and defensively. It's not like Franz's move matters yet, either, as the maps are simply too small and dense. In chapter 4,

Your assertion that Franz replaces Seth is a severe exaggeration; Franz is never clearly the best the character in any given chapter

If that's the case, why did I have him at level 14 by the end of chapter 6? It's not because I made sure he got a lot of kills. It's because he was just so good that it was most efficient to have him do things, and as time went on he became better and better. And he was slightly screwed, too. I'll just look at the first few chapters here without Franz:

Try this with Eirika.

Chapter 1: Enjoy fort/vulnerary spamming with Eirika and Gilliam.

Franz saves 1 turn here.

Chapter 2: What are you going to do without Franz? Gilliam is doubled without luck, and his offense isn't anything to boast about here, either. lolvanessaagainstaxes. lolross. Are you gunna rush to recruit Garcia and forest tank with him and Eirika?

You can do this as fast as with Franz as without; baiting the reinforcement brigands can be done simultaneously with killing the boss.

Chapter 3: Well, I guess Gilliam has his uses against the sword/bow enemies, but against axes we're left with just Eirika and Garcia (and sorta Colm) to deal with the axe guys.

He helps, but it's hard to say whether he definitively saves a turn here or not. By any means, he's still the third best in this chapter.

Chapter 4: When I did this, Franz basically soloed that bottom right section. I guess we're letting the other people fight off the other enemies, then move down there instead of doing it all simultaneously.

Again with not definitely saving a turn. Garcia with a strength proc can ORKO everything in the south minus the boss, Vanessa and Lute are needed to clear the southwest in time, and Gilliam is cool hanging back.

Chapter 5: Enjoy fighting on all those fronts and getting the villages with still so few frontliners.

Franz can frontline, but he's not near durable enough to be comparable to Seth. Visiting the houses isn't really a top priority outside of the dracoshield. Also, here you get Joshua, who beats Franz offensively for a while.

Chapter 6: I had Franz at level 11 here at the start, and he was responsible for the final charge to the boss. I guess someone not on a horse is plodding along to the boss, and it'll be harder to deal with the initial enemies, too.

Considering the Eirika should be used over Franz in the beginning, 11 is too high for this point, and even then, he cannot immediately rush the boss because he can't take hits that well. I haven't gotten this far yet, but I'm pretty sure Josh's clearing offense is going to be the most significant performance.

So we've now taken, what, a dozen more turns with less reliable strategies? We've still got three more chapters before Duessel shows up, too. Show that Duessel or Vanessa have that kind of impact, please. I don't see it.

A dozen is a ridiculous overestimation. Try Franzless vs Eirikaless. What were your turncounts?

[Rewjeo]

You have to visit all the Ch5 villages to get the Guiding Ring, and Vanessa does this faster than anyone else.

I'll also note that recruiting Ross means we get Garcia. Without Vanessa around to save Ross, he's most likely dead and no Garcia recruited.

I mentioned those.

How can I provide 'proof' on a matter of opinion? It is my opinion that Franz does not deserve to be a tier over the others because he doesn't ORKO and never die from the moment he joins (he reaches that point eventually obviously, but so do a multitude of units). It is your opinion he does because he saves more turns than any other unit.

What does everyone else think?

The idea here is that the game is completed as quickly as possible while still being reliable.

What's this referring to/mean?

Healers. I was working on English final stuff and my teacher likes it when I use random metaphors, so that's where that came from.

I seem to recall Artur failing to secure ORKOs when doubling early, which lead to a 2RKO vs 2RKO offense comparison. Even despite the initial speed lead, it's not that hard to surmount, and when Lute does get there, she is clearly better for the rest of the game.

Lute has 1 more base MT. I recall them both 3HOing stuff, but Artur doubling means he 2RKOs, making it easier for others to finish enemies or for Artur to finish someone weakened from enemy phase.

No. To elaborate:

I tried Sethless earlier, and Eirika is definitely better than Franz through Chapter 4, at least. To start with, I don't know how you would claim Franz has better offense than Eirika when he fails to double everything in Chapter 2, and most everything in Chapter 3. Additionally, while he is concretely better defensively, he is no where near good enough to charge ahead and save turns like Seth does and in relation, Eirika's avoid is good enough. In Chapter 3 (and 2, really), he's also worse than Garcia since Garcia's key for knocking down walls and is better offensively and defensively. It's not like Franz's move matters yet, either, as the maps are simply too small and dense. In chapter 4,

Guess what? Eirika isn't necessarily doubling, either. 9 base SPD against 6-7 SPD enemies. That said, I started up another Sethless game after this post, and yes, her offense is slightly better for 2RKOing some enemies that he doesn't.

I'm not saying he IS Seth, I'm saying he's the closest thing we have. He's taking Seth's role. He IS durable enough to go ahead. Not durable enough to barrel ahead alone and never ever die, but he's certainly more durable than miss-2HKOd-by-everything. I'd rather KNOW that my strategy will work than hope. In fact, that's part of the goal of the list: a strategy that is fast and reliable.

Chapter 2 I don't bother to recruit Garcia so he can deal with the archer and I don't end up in a cluster around that fort. Chapter 3, Garcia knocks down walls, great. Why? So that I can put Franz through the hole since he can reach enemies better and handles them well. I could also have Franz attack walls. And his MOV does matter. It's not putting him way ahead, but he is ending up farther ahead and can reach enemies sooner. What happens in chapter 4?

Your assertion that Franz replaces Seth is a severe exaggeration; Franz is never clearly the best the character in any given chapter

I never said he REPLACES Seth, I said that he TAKES ON HIS ROLE. They're different.

Try this with Eirika.

What I think is happening is that I'm letting Franz take EXP while you're letting Eirika take EXP. It is my opinion that Franz makes better use as he has more MOV and access to 1-2 range. I can test this.

Franz saves 1 turn here.

Cool. I feel like it's more than that, but I haven't tried, so whatever.

You can do this as fast as with Franz as without; baiting the reinforcement brigands can be done simultaneously with killing the boss.

So Eirika's surrounded by brigands who 2HKO her and we hope that she doubles enough and gets some crits and doesn't get hit? We also have less offensive power on player phase. I doubt again that he makes no difference.

He helps, but it's hard to say whether he definitively saves a turn here or not. By any means, he's still the third best in this chapter.

Oh, right, because Eirika is flimsy and might have slightly better offense and Garcia can attack walls.

Again with not definitely saving a turn. Garcia with a strength proc can ORKO everything in the south minus the boss, Vanessa and Lute are needed to clear the southwest in time, and Gilliam is cool hanging back.

Awesome. So we agree on the strategy for everywhere except the south. Because guess what? Franz gets there faster. And ORKOs basically everything as well if we haven't been handing Eirika kills.

Franz can frontline, but he's not near durable enough to be comparable to Seth. Visiting the houses isn't really a top priority outside of the dracoshield. Also, here you get Joshua, who beats Franz offensively for a while.

He isn't Seth, yeah. I had I think at 8/0 Franz here, so depending on Franz's luck with his SPD the offense could change. But yes, I did exaggerate with how good Franz's offense is at first. And I think we want that guiding ring. But the site says that the villages must just be intact. I had thought that they had to be visited. Okay.

Considering the Eirika should be used over Franz in the beginning, 11 is too high for this point, and even then, he cannot immediately rush the boss because he can't take hits that well. I haven't gotten this far yet, but I'm pretty sure Josh's clearing offense is going to be the most significant performance.

Again, I don't feel that Eirika deserves to be used over Franz. This chapter is a good example of why. Franz isn't bumrushing the boss from turn 1, but after the starting area is cleared out some, Franz can rush and take out the boss. Certainly faster than Josh and his clearing power can. I don't recall Josh being all that super awesome here, either, but I have only just started another Sethless run and didn't have much time when I started and only got to chapter 3.

A dozen is a ridiculous overestimation. Try Franzless vs Eirikaless. What were your turncounts?

Well you seem to be suggesting like two to four turns. I think it's between our exaggerations. I don't remember my turncounts. But I won't claim to be the best FE player out there.

I haven't debated in a long time. Can you tell? Should we start a thread for comparing early game turncounts and strategies, or shall we clutter this thread with that stuff?

Edited May 27, 2011 by Rewjeo

[Bryan]

Guess what? Eirika isn't necessarily doubling, either. 9 base SPD against 6-7 SPD enemies.

What mode are you playing? I've never had her fail to double unless I hand her the steel sword.

(I do play on hard mode.)

Yea, I pretty much just Eirika solo the first few chapters. It gets the job done quickly.

Franz is great, but IMO, training Eirika is top priority. We have to make sure she can survive, plus, it's important to have her at 20 by chapter 16's end. We can't have a level five lord running around chapter 9. (Or 10, 11, 12, 13...)

Edited May 27, 2011 by Nyan

[Rewjeo]

If Eirika doesn't get that speed proc, she's sitting at 9 SPD against 6-7 SPD enemies. I've had her fail to double multiple times, and fairly often she hits 10 AS during chapter 2.

Just ran through chapter 1 with Franz and without. With Franz, 5 turns. Without I got 8 turns the first time and then actually managed to get 5... in which Eirika dodged five the six times she got attacked and scored four critical hits, including one that KOd the boss. Had this not happened, there was a ~70% chance she would have died, not to mention the many times she survived by dodging a whole lot of attacks. She also got an early SPD proc and so doubled everything when that won't always happen. But I don't know that that is all that reliable, what with several 13/14% crits and dodging a whole lot of hits in the 50s and 70s. My run with Franz involved one crit and dodging a much more reasonable number of attacks. I am sure that I can cut down on that 8 turn without demanding luck, though. That said, it looks to me like Franz saves more than one turn there. I'll work on that tonight, then tomorrow I'll continue on with the game. WoMC, if you're so inclined, you can do vanilla and then Eirikaless. I must say, having never fully committed myself to a very low-turn Sethless run of this game, I'm excited.

[Radiant Dragon]

The idea here is that the game is completed as quickly as possible while still being reliable.

That's cool and all, but it doesn't address my point. Franz is the best unit in a no-Seth run: Fact. He is so much better than everyone else that he deserves his own tier: Opinion.

[Rewjeo]

The basis behind your opinion is that he isn't an invincible ORKO unit from the get-go. That is not the point of this tier list. The proof would be that Duessel and Vanessa both save a comparable number of turns reliably. If Franz saves us 12 more turns than them, and saving turns is the goal of this list, then I think it's safe to say that there should be a tier gap to represent the disparity between how much the contribute to minimizing turns. It is still opinion since there are no specific rules as to what deserves a tier gap and what doesn't, but if there's such a significant lead... And the opposite is true. If Franz only saves one more turn than Duessel, although still opinion, I think it would be safe to say that there would be no tier gap.

So, I managed to consistently 6 turn Chapter 1 without Franz despite it requiring luck. Whatever, I'll accept that. So far, Franz has saved 1 turn over the course of 1 chapter. Tomorrow I'll try to at least go through chapter 5. Hopefully I can get to the route split.

[Bryan]

If Eirika doesn't get that speed proc, she's sitting at 9 SPD against 6-7 SPD enemies. I've had her fail to double multiple times, and fairly often she hits 10 AS during chapter 2.

Wait... Wait... What? She'll gain around 165 exp from killing the two bandits and the boss in the proluge. She has a .6 chance of getting speed in the first level. That's over half. PLUS, if Eirika kills the first bandit in chapter two, she'll level to two. You've got like a .16 chance not to gain one speed in those two levels.

(PEMN...)

In my 40+ play throughs on all of the different difficulties, I have never had her fail to double unless I make her use the steel sword. I play Sethless every run through.

You're getting screwed.

[Rewjeo]

I did chapter 1 8 times last night. I had her at 12 SPD once, 11 SPD twice, 10 SPD twice, and 9 SPD thrice at the end. Her level varied from three to five at the end. That's 3/8 of the time that she couldn't double. Yeah, PEMN, but if it happened that often and I remember it happening in the past, I think that it can happen often enough for it to be mentioned.

I also realized that Eirika is sorta huge for chapter 1, what with being the only one who can kill the boss. I do think that I either misremembered my earlier playthroughs, or I've just gotten way better at FE over the last three months of not playing FE. But I still believe that Franz is good enough to have a tier gap between him and Vanessa/Duessel. Although I could see Eirika in Top on her route now with him. The big question is her performance from 9-16.

Edit: First attempt had 7 turns with Franz, 10 turns w/out Franz because the boss and one of his lackeys targeted Garcia and I had to ship Eirika over there. I think, though, that if Garcia had moved differently I could have shaved two turns off of that. Ultimately, though, it's luck based. After all, with luck I could get a 6 turn or even a 5 turn with a lot of luck. Assuming I'm getting the timing right for the reinforcements.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Rewjeo

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Lute has 1 more base MT. I recall them both 3HOing stuff, but Artur doubling means he 2RKOs, making it easier for others to finish enemies or for Artur to finish someone weakened from enemy phase.

Enemies have mostly 7 AS in Chapter 5, which means it's going to take until level 10 and more to double. By the time that happens, you're close to/have access to Thunder, and while you also have access to Shine, that drops Artur's AS, so, combined with better growth means Lute opens up about 5 att lead. And again, how much does Artur's period of doubling advantage matter against clear post promotion win for Lute?

Guess what? Eirika isn't necessarily doubling, either. 9 base SPD against 6-7 SPD enemies. That said, I started up another Sethless game after this post, and yes, her offense is slightly better for 2RKOing some enemies that he doesn't.

With the two bosses alone in P and 1, Eirika gets two levels. Regular enemies amount to at least another level. 10.8 speed at level 4. The first 7 AS enemy is in Chapter 3.

I'm not saying he IS Seth, I'm saying he's the closest thing we have. He's taking Seth's role. He IS durable enough to go ahead. Not durable enough to barrel ahead alone and never ever die, but he's certainly more durable than miss-2HKOd-by-everything. I'd rather KNOW that my strategy will work than hope. In fact, that's part of the goal of the list: a strategy that is fast and reliable.

Seth's role was to rush to wherever, kill everything, and not die. Franz cannot do this and so does not take that role.

Chapter 2 I don't bother to recruit Garcia so he can deal with the archer and I don't end up in a cluster around that fort. Chapter 3, Garcia knocks down walls, great. Why? So that I can put Franz through the hole since he can reach enemies better and handles them well. I could also have Franz attack walls. And his MOV does matter. It's not putting him way ahead, but he is ending up farther ahead and can reach enemies sooner. What happens in chapter 4?

I meant Garcia as NPC, but yeah that doesn't really count. In Chapter 3, Garcia knocking down walls as he does probably saves a turn, and you're ignoring that he has better combat than Franz. Using Franz here in front instead of Eirika will slow you down since he doesn't double. Movement doesn't matter in 2 since Franz's deployment spot is behind and Eirika gets where she needs to fast enough. Movement doesn't matter in 3 because enemies are in the way and Eirika's speed is max speed. Chapter 4 was supposed to just be the other mention of 4 in above post.

I never said he REPLACES Seth, I said that he TAKES ON HIS ROLE. They're different.

That's what replaces means. Say a boss fires his secretary and hires a new one. The new one has taken on the role and is said to replace the old one.

What I think is happening is that I'm letting Franz take EXP while you're letting Eirika take EXP. It is my opinion that Franz makes better use as he has more MOV and access to 1-2 range. I can test this.

And with Eirika taking EXP, you do early game faster.

So Eirika's surrounded by brigands who 2HKO her and we hope that she doubles enough and gets some crits and doesn't get hit? We also have less offensive power on player phase. I doubt again that he makes no difference.

Eirika at level 4 has 29 avo, +forest/fort, +WTA gives 64 avo against the most common 77. Vulneraries also exist and can be used without slowing down since she 2RKOs. Crits are unnecessary. What is Franz doing here that does not slow down Eirika?

Oh, right, because Eirika is flimsy and might have slightly better offense and Garcia can attack walls.

And help clear the chapter more than Franz.

Awesome. So we agree on the strategy for everywhere except the south. Because guess what? Franz gets there faster. And ORKOs basically everything as well if we haven't been handing Eirika kills.

Actually, Vanessa dropping Garcia may be even better. There goes the move. Beyond this, Franz is not ORKO'ing everything because he needs level 5 to catch 30 hp/1 def revenants, and we would be feeding kills to him, not Eirika, because that implies slowing down to do. Also, his durability is questionable since two mogall attacks and the boss kills him even at level 5, there's more enemies besides that, and he's probably not at level 5 anyway.

Again, I don't feel that Eirika deserves to be used over Franz. This chapter is a good example of why. Franz isn't bumrushing the boss from turn 1, but after the starting area is cleared out some, Franz can rush and take out the boss. Certainly faster than Josh and his clearing power can. I don't recall Josh being all that super awesome here, either, but I have only just started another Sethless run and didn't have much time when I started and only got to chapter 3.

Clearing out the starting front line is the most important part of this chapter, as even though Franz gets to the boss a turn quicker, he doesn't ORKO the boss and the boss 2HKO's him back, which gives an extra turn for other units to catch up. This is not a valid reason to favor Franz.

Well you seem to be suggesting like two to four turns. I think it's between our exaggerations. I don't remember my turncounts. But I won't claim to be the best FE player out there.

I do not exaggerate. In comparison, Vanessa saves more turns in Chapter 7 alone. Same tier.

I haven't debated in a long time. Can you tell? Should we start a thread for comparing early game turncounts and strategies, or shall we clutter this thread with that stuff?

Not really; I don't think it matters that much.

[Rewjeo]

Enemies have mostly 7 AS in Chapter 5, which means it's going to take until level 10 and more to double. By the time that happens, you're close to/have access to Thunder, and while you also have access to Shine, that drops Artur's AS, so, combined with better growth means Lute opens up about 5 att lead. And again, how much does Artur's period of doubling advantage matter against clear post promotion win for Lute?

I didn't mean by chapter 5. But that IS the question. Either way, both need to drop.

With the two bosses alone in P and 1, Eirika gets two levels. Regular enemies amount to at least another level. 10.8 speed at level 4. The first 7 AS enemy is in Chapter 3.

Ah, so that's why my 10AS Eirika at level 4 failed to double some of the brigands in chapter 2 and I had to be careful with what I had Gilliam do because he was doubled by some enemies.

Seth's role was to rush to wherever, kill everything, and not die. Franz cannot do this and so does not take that role.

He can do it eventually.

I meant Garcia as NPC, but yeah that doesn't really count. In Chapter 3, Garcia knocking down walls as he does probably saves a turn, and you're ignoring that he has better combat than Franz. Using Franz here in front instead of Eirika will slow you down since he doesn't double. Movement doesn't matter in 2 since Franz's deployment spot is behind and Eirika gets where she needs to fast enough. Movement doesn't matter in 3 because enemies are in the way and Eirika's speed is max speed. Chapter 4 was supposed to just be the other mention of 4 in above post.

Because Franz cannot attack walls and does not take only two hits to knock them down just like Garcia. Now, Garcia IS more flexible as to who he can go with to knock down a wall, but Franz can do it, too. Further, I'm pretty sure that Franz can save a turn here, just like he saves anywhere from 2-5 turns between chapters 1&2. If he kills an enemy, Eirika can move farther. But we'll see when I test chapter 3 w/out Franz.

That's what replaces means. Say a boss fires his secretary and hires a new one. The new one has taken on the role and is said to replace the old one.

Your wife dies of cancer. You marry someone else. She has taken the role of wife. Did she replace your first wife?

And with Eirika taking EXP, you do early game faster.

So far, that isn't true.

Eirika at level 4 has 29 avo, +forest/fort, +WTA gives 64 avo against the most common 77. Vulneraries also exist and can be used without slowing down since she 2RKOs. Crits are unnecessary. What is Franz doing here that does not slow down Eirika?

Shit happens when we rely on just Eirika to tank. It can't when we have Franz tank. And how on earth does Franz SLOW HER DOWN?

And help clear the chapter more than Franz.

Which is why I mentioned her maybe moving into Top with Franz depending on chapters 9-16.

Actually, Vanessa dropping Garcia may be even better. There goes the move. Beyond this, Franz is not ORKO'ing everything because he needs level 5 to catch 30 hp/1 def revenants, and we would be feeding kills to him, not Eirika, because that implies slowing down to do. Also, his durability is questionable since two mogall attacks and the boss kills him even at level 5, there's more enemies besides that, and he's probably not at level 5 anyway.

I've had no trouble getting him to level 5. Yes, you do have to give him higher priority than Eirika, but that means that when they both only need one round to finish of an enemy, you let Franz do it. Get the mogalls to go after someone else, then.

Clearing out the starting front line is the most important part of this chapter, as even though Franz gets to the boss a turn quicker, he doesn't ORKO the boss and the boss 2HKO's him back, which gives an extra turn for other units to catch up. This is not a valid reason to favor Franz.

Unless Franz does ORKO the boss. In which case, favoring him is saving us turns... Yeah, that's a bad idea.

I assume you have enemy stats? If so, please link.

I do not exaggerate. In comparison, Vanessa saves more turns in Chapter 7 alone. Same tier.

Given that he's possibly saved us 5 turns in the first two chapters if you're horribly unlucky, and 2 turns unless you get ridiculously lucky, I'd say you exaggerate.

Not really; I don't think it matters that much.

Well, I feel like I've been making some pretty obvious mistakes, so...

Edited May 27, 2011 by Rewjeo

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

If Eirika doesn't get that speed proc, she's sitting at 9 SPD against 6-7 SPD enemies. I've had her fail to double multiple times, and fairly often she hits 10 AS during chapter 2.

Just ran through chapter 1 with Franz and without. With Franz, 5 turns. Without I got 8 turns the first time and then actually managed to get 5... in which Eirika dodged five the six times she got attacked and scored four critical hits, including one that KOd the boss. Had this not happened, there was a ~70% chance she would have died, not to mention the many times she survived by dodging a whole lot of attacks. She also got an early SPD proc and so doubled everything when that won't always happen. But I don't know that that is all that reliable, what with several 13/14% crits and dodging a whole lot of hits in the 50s and 70s. My run with Franz involved one crit and dodging a much more reasonable number of attacks. I am sure that I can cut down on that 8 turn without demanding luck, though. That said, it looks to me like Franz saves more than one turn there. I'll work on that tonight, then tomorrow I'll continue on with the game. WoMC, if you're so inclined, you can do vanilla and then Eirikaless. I must say, having never fully committed myself to a very low-turn Sethless run of this game, I'm excited.

I did Chapter 1 again, and I'd revise my statement to Franz not even saving on average 1 turn. There's a strategy which manipulates the enemy AI to attack Eirika most of the time only once until she reaches the boss. On turn 2, Gilliam soaks most of the hits one square south of the fort while Eirika chills between the two fighters and sees them run off to where the first soldier suicided. Turn 3, Eirika kills the soldier below Gilliam and Gilliam moves one to the left of Eirika and heals. Turn 4, Gilliam kills the soldier and Eirika moves in front of the boss. Here Franz can help kill the remaining fighter to save a possible 32% chance Eirika dies, and also probably prevent a 3% chance of death earlier, but all in all, not that much. This also does not require Eirika to gain any stats. Another note is that Eirika is either going to have to crit the boss or gain strength to 5 turn, and this is independent of Franz.

I didn't mean by chapter 5. But that IS the question. Either way, both need to drop.

5 was for reference.

Ah, so that's why my 10AS Eirika at level 4 failed to double some of the brigands in chapter 2 and I had to be careful with what I had Gilliam do because he was doubled by some enemies.

Eirika on average has 11 AS here, and 7 AS brigands are rare. Hardly an issue.

He can do it eventually.

Not any time soon, and when he does, the rest of your team will be pretty awesome too. Duessel is the closest thing to a replacement Seth.

Because Franz cannot attack walls and does not take only two hits to knock them down just like Garcia. Now, Garcia IS more flexible as to who he can go with to knock down a wall, but Franz can do it, too. Further, I'm pretty sure that Franz can save a turn here, just like he saves anywhere from 2-5 turns between chapters 1&2. If he kills an enemy, Eirika can move farther. But we'll see when I test chapter 3 w/out Franz.

How is he concretely saving a turn here? How is concretely saving even 1 turn in 2? Post some proof.

Your wife dies of cancer. You marry someone else. She has taken the role of wife. Did she replace your first wife?

Yes. Though this is just debating definitions.

So far, that isn't true.

The classic "no" defense.

Shit happens when we rely on just Eirika to tank. It can't when we have Franz tank. And how on earth does Franz SLOW HER DOWN?

If enemies target Franz, they will take longer to be killed later. Eirika's durability is easy to work around, like above.

I've had no trouble getting him to level 5. Yes, you do have to give him higher priority than Eirika, but that means that when they both only need one round to finish of an enemy, you let Franz do it. Get the mogalls to go after someone else, then.

I have Franz getting less than a level in 1, less than a level in 2, and a level in 3. That's not undoable without favoritism, but then again, 5 still isn't that great anyway. There is one Mogall which Franzrush is going to have to face.

Unless Franz does ORKO the boss. In which case, favoring him is saving us turns... Yeah, that's a bad idea.

Yeah, at level 11. So no.

I assume you have enemy stats? If so, please link.

There's this.

Given that he's possibly saved us 5 turns in the first two chapters if you're horribly unlucky, and 2 turns unless you get ridiculously lucky, I'd say you exaggerate.

See above. 5 turns is what Seth saves us.

[Anouleth]

So Franz is our best unit for 9 (and a half-ish) chapters prior to Duessel's existence. Not just best, either, hugely better than everyone else. Then Duessel shows up and has generally better stats and axes, but has significantly less speed (although he is doubling a lot, Franz will double more) and two less MOV. Franz shouldn't be a tier up on him for that? Gerik should be lower, anyways. He's currently above Kyle/Forde.

I'd put Franz into his own tier. He really is that good.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

He shouldn't be the only Top unit though. Vanessa, Ephraim!Duessel, and Ephraim!Ephraim are too good and useful to be dropped to High. (Also, Eirika!Gerik, maybe)

[Rewjeo]

Why?

Why is Eph. Ephraim nearly as good as (or as good as) Franz? Why is Vanessa nearly as good as Franz? Why is Eph. Duessel nearly as good as him? Why is Eir. Duessel nearly as good as him? Why is this not true, Anouleth? WoMC and I are at least working out what he contributes, but no one has really compared what anyone else contributes.

@WoMC

How is Eirika getting that far that quickly without critting? She doesn't exactly ORKO enemies, and if she's moving instead of attacking, we're getting her surrounded by enemies who 2HKO her.

If Eirika misses one SPD proc she can face problems. Not as often as she doesn't have a problem, but it's there.

I didn't record the playthroughs, but I can say that Franz saved me a turn in chapter 2.

Except that Franz+Eirika kills an enemy in as many rounds as Eirika+Franz.

I had Franz get a level in 1, two levels in 2, and another level in 3. It's called choosing to let him kill when it doesn't make a difference.

Well, the other thing here is to use both Franz and Garcia to speed things up and make it more reliable- Garcia's hit is a little shaky.

Franz is level 5 going into chapter 4. He's clearing stuff out around the bottom. Chapter 5 his durability is helpful, he can double quite a bit, and we could maybe have him grab the boss kill if he can use the armorslayer. Chapter 6 we've got the whole path to the boss. I think you could get him there. Close, but the more EXP he gets, the easier it is to get him EXP.

Thank you for that. I was not aware that we had them here on SF.