Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[grandjackal]

You can't give him ZERO credit for his thieving. At least earlygame he's helpful for that. Then there's the desert, which admittedly is shared credit with Rennac. But if he's being used as a combatant, I would rather bring him than Rennac for also being useful outside of finding stuff.

A 20/1 Colm only really has a 2 STR advantage on Rennac (and Rennac has weapon rank still). You'd waste all the money an Ocean Seal nets you for a slightly less crappy Rennac?

Also, name one thing of importance that Colm nabs us that we can't just get with chest keys in earlygame.

I did give him credit for the desert, not saying he should be thrown into Low here.

I sorta hate tiering thieves. You have to give them credit for ALWAYS doing certain things (like opening chests) but only SOMETIMES will he be used for combat, whereas with other units, it is assumed that, when they're used, they're used.

Well FE8 made it easy on us by giving thieves awful combat, so we know they'll simply never be really fighting unless we feel lke wasting kills on them.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Grandjackal

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Colm only has some combat use as an Assassin but even that's debateable, because getting Colm to level 20 efficiently would take forever. In fact, I don't think it's possible. (even having him kill Entombeds, who give 100 EXP most of the time, is tough)

He should be dropped to the top of Mid, maybe? His thief utility is still somewhat useful in Renvall and Eirika's chapters, and he can nab the first three chests in Grado Keep with a guard while everyone else rushes Vigarde.

[Rewjeo]

A 20/1 Colm only really has a 2 STR advantage on Rennac (and Rennac has weapon rank still). You'd waste all the money an Ocean Seal nets you for a slightly less crappy Rennac?

True, it does take a lot of effort to get Colm to a point where he is noticeably better than Rennac. But I'd be surprised if Colm hasn't managed to gain three weapon ranks over nineteen levels.

Also, name one thing of importance that Colm nabs us that we can't just get with chest keys in earlygame.

How many keys do we have in chapter 7? There's some good treasure there.

I did give him credit for the desert, not saying he should be thrown into Low here.

I know, I was just listing some of his thieving contributions. Mind you, there is also some stuff to be stolen from enemies throughout the game. An energy ring, a speedwings on Ephraim's route, a goddess icon, a dragonshield, a talisman, a body ring, and a guiding ring. That's a lot of gold if we don't decide to use that 2 STR/SPD/DEF/CON(/LUK/RES/magicunitpromotion) and if we do, well, it's worth more than the gold obviously.

Well FE8 made it easy on us by giving thieves awful combat, so we know they'll simply never be really fighting unless we feel lke wasting kills on them.

So we should just ignore it? Oh, wait, we must rank him based on when he's actually used. I guess if he's only used as a combatant in 3% of runs, though, that impact is rather miniscule compared to his thieving impact 100% of the time.

Anyways, where do people think he could go exactly? Top of Upper Mid would put him just above Eir. Saleh, top of Lower Mid would put him just above Tana. Higher? Lower? In between?

[Anouleth]

Some of those items take too long to get, like the Eph Route Speedwings (and probably the Body Ring as well). The same goes for the C17 Dracoshield and the C15 Guiding Ring.

[grandjackal]

True, it does take a lot of effort to get Colm to a point where he is noticeably better than Rennac. But I'd be surprised if Colm hasn't managed to gain three weapon ranks over nineteen levels.

Even if he did, I would still find the price of Colm just to be sliiiightly better than Rennac to be ridiculous. EXP investment AND price of Ocean Seal.

How many keys do we have in chapter 7? There's some good treasure there.

3, which is exactly how many treasures there are in there. Hell, 2 of the chests are clear across the map and through a breaking wall, making me question Colm could get there without needing to take the time of some cavalier to assist him. I'd think taking the keys from Ephraim's chapter for those chest is well worth having over the luxuries of an Elixer and a Killer Lance.

I know, I was just listing some of his thieving contributions. Mind you, there is also some stuff to be stolen from enemies throughout the game. An energy ring, a speedwings on Ephraim's route, a goddess icon, a dragonshield, a talisman, a body ring, and a guiding ring. That's a lot of gold if we don't decide to use that 2 STR/SPD/DEF/CON(/LUK/RES/magicunitpromotion) and if we do, well, it's worth more than the gold obviously.

It would be nice if you laid out what chapters you nab these. After all, some of these might be around the time that Rennac's around, and he's quite capable in stealing as well.

As for Ephraim's route, I'd be far more linient with him there, I'm just arguing there's not much he does for us in Eirika's route.

So we should just ignore it?

If it's awful, then yes.

Oh, wait, we must rank him based on when he's actually used. I guess if he's only used as a combatant in 3% of runs, though, that impact is rather miniscule compared to his thieving impact 100% of the time.

Precisely WHY it should be ignored, and is part of the reason it sucks tiering thieves. Someone who's only fighting 3% of the time and actually being helpful with that amount of combat is top? Get out of town.

Anyways, where do people think he could go exactly? Top of Upper Mid would put him just above Eir. Saleh, top of Lower Mid would put him just above Tana. Higher? Lower? In between?

At this point I'd argue Lower Mid, either above or below Tana. Tana ferries and can actually be good at some point in time, Colm gets us nice things. Both are minorly helpful in their own way.

[Bearissoslow]

Also, name one thing of importance that Colm nabs us that we can't just get with chest keys in earlygame.

Waterside Renvall Energy Ring.

[Rewjeo]

I think Colm could be below Tana, at least on Eirika's route. Ephraim's route Tana doesn't have chapter 9 and Colm has that Speedwings.

[Anouleth]

I think Colm could be below Tana, at least on Eirika's route. Ephraim's route Tana doesn't have chapter 9 and Colm has that Speedwings.

As I have said, it's too difficult to steal the Speedwings. The Mage that carries it is on the bottom side of the map and trying to get a unit as awful at combat as Colm down there will almost certainly cost you a turn that the Speedwings will not save you later.

[Rewjeo]

I can't imagine there is no situation in which the speedwings won't make up for the turn it takes to get them. I'm sure there are also plenty where they don't, so it's not a huge point or anything, but between that and Tana not having chapter 9 there... Well, actually, there are very few things that Colm can steal at all, and, as you pointed out, some are not worth getting (usually, at least) and the others probably won't have a very big impact. His other thieving abilities are easily replaceable. All he has is half credit for desert stuff, and I'd be surprised if anything other than the swiftsole, silver card, and warp made any sort of significant impact. And you might have so much money at this point that the silver card doesn't make all that much of a difference. Tana at least gets half credit for ferrying people/stuff around for the last half of the game. God, Colm really sucks as a thief, doesn't he?

[Anouleth]

I can't imagine there is no situation in which the speedwings won't make up for the turn it takes to get them.

I imagine there is are very few situations where they will make up for it. When exactly is the Speedwing going to save us a turn? Most of the enemies remaining that 'need' to be killed are unpromoted in any case - there are some Druids/Sages in C16, and some bosses. Assuming your team is respectably levelled, they will not struggle with that.

I think that Kyle and Forde should move up, to the top of Top Tier in Ephraim Route. They should certainly not be below Gerik. Gerik struggles to keep up when he has only 6 movement and 15CON, and while his combat stats are better, he is put in the position of almost having to promote straight away to be competitive in Chapter 13 and 14. While he is arguably better in 13, 14, and 15, he drops behind the Cavaliers again very quickly once they promote and the maps become larger, such as in chapters 16 and 18 where Forde and Kyle are invaluable for Rescue-Dropping and can easily move ahead. They also have use in midgame before Gerik exists.

[Bryan]

Waterside Renvall Energy Ring.

At least somebody remebered this! I was banging my head against the table because no body had even mentioned this.

I also never said that Neimi was good, but she does get her own promotion item. That really should count for something. It's not like she's fighting with somebody over it, like any one of our mages, Josh, Gerik, Franz, Forde. The list goes on...

Edited June 6, 2011 by Nyan

[Integrity]

I also never said that Neimi was good, but she does get her own promotion item. That really should count for something. It's not like she's fighting with somebody over it, like any one of our mages, Josh, Gerik, Franz, Forde. The list goes on...

Speaking as a major fan of Neimi, her biggest contender for her "own" promotion item is $5k worth of Killing Edges and Swordreavers and, hell, maybe even a Physic.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Integrity

[Shadow Mir]

Speaking as a major fan of Neimi, her biggest contender for her "own" promotion item is $5k worth of Killing Edges and Swordslayers and, hell, maybe even a Physic.

Uh, Physic staves are pretty expensive without the Silver Card, which doesn't come around until chapter 15. Not to mention that they're only buyable in secret shops, one of which is before you get said item... Also, Swordslayers aren't buyable.

[Integrity]

Also, Swordslayers aren't buyable.

...

Yeah, that's what I get for getting Slayers and Reavers backwards. Thanks.

Physic is 3750. The Orion's Bolt sells for 5k. That's 15 uses of Physic from the very first secret shop in C14 - where you're not rather likely to have money for more than one ordinarily.

Or, it's the C5 (backtracking, ho!) Restore staff for making C9 Eph easier, plus hand axes hand axes javelins javelins javelins.

Either way, 5k isn't an inconsequential amount of money.

[Anouleth]

All characters take 5k to promote. How is Neimi taking 5k to promote any different?

For what it's worth, I didn't even visit the Secret Shop. It was too out of the way.

[dondon151]

You're right that all characters cost 5000 G to promote, but what's worth more: 5000 G in good items or a promoted unit?

[Anouleth]

You're right that all characters cost 5000 G to promote, but what's worth more: 5000 G in good items or a promoted unit?

A promoted unit, almost invariably. Most of the 'good stuff' is in the secret shop which is time-consuming to visit anyway. And while promoting Neimi pays off immediately, the secret shop isn't until Chapter 14. While you can buy some nice things in Chapter 17, it's questionable if it's worth never promoting a character in order to get at it. Killer weapons are not really crucial to deal with Gorgon Eggs, and most of what's left in the game would be better dealt with using Sacred weapons. Personally, I don't think that's even necessary. I didn't get the Silver Card and I only sold a single promotion item, yet I am nowhere near running out of money, with about ~15k to my name. And that's before selling items of dubious value such as the Fili Shield, Hoplon Guard, Goddess Icon, and Member Card.

[grandjackal]

You say almost invariably. But what if in this variable this were Neimi we're talking about? What is this promoting "immediately" business? When does she hit level 10? Is she any good (she's a worse Franz at 10/0 due to worse durability and far worse weapon ranks) at that time? I'd much rather have the gold in my account just to have a pretty number to stare at. At least a high gold count boosts my morale.

[Anouleth]

You say almost invariably. But what if in this variable this were Neimi we're talking about? What is this promoting "immediately" business? When does she hit level 10?

I've discussed this before: around Chapter 11.

Is she any good (she's a worse Franz at 10/0 due to worse durability and far worse weapon ranks)

Franz is at the top of the tier list. It would set a dangerous precedent to refuse to promote a character because they are not as good as Franz.

at that time? I'd much rather have the gold in my account just to have a pretty number to stare at. At least a high gold count boosts my morale.

I don't care about your morale, and I don't think the tier list should arbitrarily refuse to promote certain characters in order to make your feel better.

[Integrity]

Everybody costs 5k to promote, Anouleth. You're very correct on that.

The point you're missing, however, is that not all promoted units are equal. A 10/1 Neimi is worth absolutely fuck-all compared to a 10/1 Artur, and the monetary investment is the same. Since the Orion's Bolt is used only for Neimi and Neimi is ballstacular, the Orion's Bolt is worth less when used than the also-5k Guiding Ring.

Incidentally, you say that the Secret Shop "only" arrives in C14 - when's your Neimi hitting 10, again?

EDIT: Just to cover my bases: obviously if we're actually USING Neimi than the promotion is worth it - but generally, we aren't and it's better to sell the Orion's Bolt and bench Neimi than to have a 10/1 E-Swords user.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Integrity

[dondon151]

I'm pretty sure if we're actually using Neimi, her use on its own is already a sunk cost, and the cost of an Orion's Bolt is just another 5000 G tossed into a pit.

[Integrity]

I'm pretty sure if we're actually using Neimi, her use on its own is already a sunk cost, and the cost of an Orion's Bolt is just another 5000 G tossed into a pit.

Sure, sure. I'm not saying Neimi is worth anything - simply that if we're committing to using her than the extra 5k is ...well, as you said, she's already a sunk cost so what's another 5k going to do?

[Shadow Mir]

Everybody costs 5k to promote, Anouleth. You're very correct on that.

The point you're missing, however, is that not all promoted units are equal. A 10/1 Neimi is worth absolutely fuck-all compared to a 10/1 Artur, and the monetary investment is the same. Since the Orion's Bolt is used only for Neimi and Neimi is ballstacular, the Orion's Bolt is worth less when used than the also-5k Guiding Ring.

Incidentally, you say that the Secret Shop "only" arrives in C14 - when's your Neimi hitting 10, again?

EDIT: Just to cover my bases: obviously if we're actually USING Neimi than the promotion is worth it - but generally, we aren't and it's better to sell the Orion's Bolt and bench Neimi than to have a 10/1 E-Swords user.

Correction: she gets D swords.

[Anouleth]

Everybody costs 5k to promote, Anouleth. You're very correct on that.

There are an enormous number of things I am correct on, and I recommend you not make a point of all of them since we'll be here forever if you do.

The point you're missing, however, is that not all promoted units are equal. A 10/1 Neimi is worth absolutely fuck-all compared to a 10/1 Artur, and the monetary investment is the same.

Hence why Artur is a full two tiers above Neimi.

Since the Orion's Bolt is used only for Neimi and Neimi is ballstacular, the Orion's Bolt is worth less when used than the also-5k Guiding Ring.

I don't get your point. Are you suggesting that because there are multiple units that can use Guiding Rings, that Neimi has a lower associated opportunity cost for her promotion item? Because that's correct.

Incidentally, you say that the Secret Shop "only" arrives in C14 - when's your Neimi hitting 10, again?

I haven't used her in such an environment, but since I got Lute to level 10 halfway through Chapter 11, I imagine that Neimi will promote at a similar time.

And as I mentioned earlier, I'm not sure how realistic visiting the Secret Shop in C14 is. Or even how useful. How much would you even spend? I think that one Barrier and one Physic pretty much covers staffing needs, and you should be able to afford that.

EDIT: Just to cover my bases: obviously if we're actually USING Neimi than the promotion is worth it -

So you agree with me?

but generally, we aren't and it's better to sell the Orion's Bolt and bench Neimi than to have a 10/1 E-Swords user.

Well, if we aren't using Neimi, she won't reach level 10 and the only thing the Orion's Bolt will do is look pretty, so you might as well sell it. Did you want to state anything else obvious?

Edited June 6, 2011 by Anouleth

[Integrity]

Apparently we're on the same page, then.