Why all the hate for SS?

[kel]

Title. Especially when it gets compared to Blazing Sword. I've never really gotten why the FE community seems to generally consider FE 8 so inferior. One of the main things seems to be the lack of difficulty, because of the abundance of strong characters, and because of the potential for abuse inherit in the tower, and later, the ruins. As far as the tower issue goes, it's completely optional, so I can't really understand the flack it's caused. I actually like that most of the characters (really all of them) are strong enough to consider using because it gives me more freedom to pick characters that are my favorites as opposed to having to pick a character based on his stats.

Another argument I see sometimes is the weak story, but I find that the dialogue is much more enjoyable in SS than BS and that the story arc, although relatively straightforward, is also more engaging. And I happen to like the lords in this game a lot more than Eliwood and Lyn. I won't talk about Hector though :) Haha.

As a little background, I've played FE 1 (DS remake), and FE 7, 8, and 9. This is also my first post.

Cheers,

Kel

[General Banzai]

Mostly it's because people played FE7 first.

FE7 is waaaaaaay worse in terms of story, characters, and gameplay.

[Mirron]

I like Ephraim more than Hector, personally. Hector isn't that exciting to me.

I love both of them personally. No hate for either of them. Honestly, out of the GBA games, so far FE6 is the lowest, just because it's a bit more tricky to play it so far.

[Rodykitty]

I haven't even played Sacred Stones (besides Mekkah's troll hack) and I am starting to think it is much better designed than FE7, not because of extra features like dual-class promotion or monsters, but because they actually kept things like 3x effective Mt and apparently late game enemies are actually kinda good (if it weren't for everybody being super heroes).

That and its color palette doesn't suck.

The game just needed a bunch of hard modes like FEDS and FE3DS have. Any FE game is gonna have the conviction of having to compared to FE7's story and wind up being bashed for it, so FE8 isn't alone here.

[General Banzai]

The game just needed a bunch of hard modes like FEDS and FE3DS have. Any FE game is gonna have the conviction of having to compared to FE7's story and wind up being bashed for it, so FE8 isn't alone here.

Er... what exactly is supposed to be good about FE7's story?

[Rodykitty]

I don't much care for FE7's story or characters, but it tends to get used as a shining example of story and character.

[Lord Raven]

See, I loved FE7's story and characters if only because it felt like the only FE game that wasn't involved with a full-blown war -- it was, for all I&P, not too different from gang warfare considering Black Fang is kind of a mafia. I used to hate 8 but now I love it, especially with this hard mode patch...

[General Banzai]

I don't much care for FE7's story or characters, but it tends to get used as a shining example of story and character.

That's funny, considering the plot has to dance around FE6's plot considerably, the main villain's motivations are disgustingly one-dimensional, and one of the main characters (Lyn) has absolutely no reason for existing after Chapter 16, and yet persists to stand around and say things until endgame.

Furthermore, Lyn and Eliwood are unbelievably bland. And the cumulation of the plot is to fight something that was a generic enemy in FE6.

[grandjackal]

I haven't even played Sacred Stones (besides Mekkah's troll hack) and I am starting to think it is much better designed than FE7, not because of extra features like dual-class promotion or monsters, but because they actually kept things like 3x effective Mt and apparently late game enemies are actually kinda good (if it weren't for everybody being super heroes).

That and its color palette doesn't suck.

The game just needed a bunch of hard modes like FEDS and FE3DS have. Any FE game is gonna have the conviction of having to compared to FE7's story and wind up being bashed for it, so FE8 isn't alone here.

FE8 would have enjoyed multiple difficulties for sure. Lategame enemies? They are pretty good (and varied, you actually have to worry about magic to an extent), but the problem is as stated: Your army is just better.

Er... what exactly is supposed to be good about FE7's story?

I dunno why people hype up FE7's story (Aside from maybe that it was a break from "Countries are at war" thing, but the thing I liked about FE8 was that it was a sudden turning of allies, and it showed how disasterous the results of it were), but it's not like FE8's a masterpiece either.

[Rodykitty]

That's funny, considering the plot has to dance around FE6's plot considerably, the main villain's motivations are disgustingly one-dimensional, and one of the main characters (Lyn) has absolutely no reason for existing after Chapter 16, and yet persists to stand around and say things until endgame.

Furthermore, Lyn and Eliwood are unbelievably bland. And the cumulation of the plot is to fight something that was a generic enemy in FE6.

Pretty much. A lot of the cheerfulness is off putting too. It was nice going to an FE game that wasn't trying to match the mood of an Advance Wars game.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

FE8 has pros and cons.

Pros:

Branching promotion paths are pretty cool.

Ephraim is a solid lord.

Both Lords gain horses on promo, which is neat.

Skill integration is neatish.

Creature Campaign is marginally interesting.

All difficulties unlocked from the start.

Cons:

Short game- 22 chapters (including 5x), and a couple where the map is basically trivial. (compare to FE7, which has ~40, even though 1 is 31x battle preparations)

Less characters- 33 characters in FE8, compare to 41 in FE7.

More blatantly useless characters - Amelia and Ewan are worse than their non-trainee counterparts even when raised, L'Arachel shows up at a stupid low level, Marisa is barely trainable, Neimi is the standard archer, etc.

Garbage endgame- With sacred weapons having 3x MT against every single endgame enemy, you basically can rattle together any set of 10 scrubs and destroy what's supposed to be the biggest challenge in the game.

Split promotions are squandered- Many choices are fairly obvious, such as SM > Assassin, Paladin > Great Knight, Great Knight > General, Ranger > Sniper, Mage Knight / Bishop > Sage, Summoner > Druid, etc. Defeats the point of a good idea.

Route split only lasts for 1/3 the game- Having to replay all 22 chapters just to see the 7 chapters where the game is questionable at best.

Seth. Need I say more?

Just in general, the difficulty level of the game is pretty garbage.

I don't hate FE8, and I'm enjoying the Sethless run that I'm doing for enemy stat collection. I just think that FE7 is a lot more balanced throughout in terms of character usability and difficulty. Plotwise, I'm pretty sure nobody really plays Fire Emblem games for the plot.

[-Cynthia-]

I dislike how Sacred Stones treats Ephraim. Eirika looks up to him as her ultimate savior and protector, despite the fact she can lead an army herself (and then there's the weird stuff like the face stroking). People also go on about how great of a tactician he is, despite that probably not being the case (I'm going to conquer this castle with 4 guys! Then...run away? Yeah brilliant.). Lyon is probably the worst going on about how Ephraim "blinded him with his radiance" and other needless fanboying. There are other characters like Neimi I also don't care for, but since Ephraim's the lord he's really hard to avoid.

Gameplay wise I like a lot of FE8's features better, though the difficulty isn't so good. That can be fixed with a patch though (ZXValaRevan has one I found enjoyable).

Edited July 10, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Swordsalmon]

I'm a bit biased because Sacred Stones was my first Fire Emblem game, but I felt that it's plot was more interesting than Blazing Sword's. It's mainly because it's antagonist; Lyon, is a lot better developed than Nergal. I feel that Nergal isn't engaging as an antagonist becuase he's in the shadow for half the game. With Lyon, they actually built him up a bit throughout the story, and it shows. ^_^

Also, Sacred Stones is its own 'story', so to speak. It's the only Fire Emblem disconnected from any other titles, with I think allowed the designers the leeway for its own graphic and story style. Magvel certainly isn't the most interesting continent, but I appreciate having the whole story started and tied up in the one game.

Gameplay-wise, branched promotions was a great addition that was sadly not kept. It's a feature I want to see in every title. ^_^ Sacred Stones is pretty short and easy; if that was changed, it'd be even better. I certainly think it's a lot better than Blazing Sword.

[Janissary]

SS was so boring. The story was lame and I thought Lyon was kind of lame, to perfectly honest. Sure he was built up, but part of Nerg's appeal to me was the unknown.

[Flying Shogi]

Gameplay wise I like a lot of FE8's features better, though the difficulty isn't so good. That can be fixed with a patch though (ZXValaRevan has one I found enjoyable).

Do you think you can give a link to that thread? I searched his name in the ROM Hacking section and gave negative results. There was one called FE8 Hardtype but I can't access that page.

Like others said, overpowered army and weak enemies doesn't make the game fun.

[Rodykitty]

I just think that FE7 is a lot more balanced throughout in terms of character usability and difficulty.

I don't know how FE8's inter-character balance is (besides Seth being broken), but when attempting LLR in FE7, I discovered that only a very select number of characters (around 3 or so) outside of Marcus and Oswin were usable early on unless I was playing on ez mode. Early game FE7 characters aren't capable of working together as a whole if you take away the strongest ones.

I don't think any other FE I've played felt so limiting in how I was allowed to use my characters. Even a game like FEDS allows for improvisation and on the fly strats.

[-Cynthia-]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15692&st=0&p=496984&hl=+hard%20+type&fromsearch=1entry496984

It's a pretty cool hack since it depowers Seth (though I still think he's the best unit) powers up enemies (especially monsters) and removes Sacred Twins effective bonuses, so it addresses multiple problems.

[Hippoman]

FE7 is still my favorite, but I've never played FE8. In fact, outside of 2,4,5, and 6 (if Shadow Dragon and New Mystery count for 1 and 3) it's one of the few I haven't played. From what I can see, people are complaining it's too easy due to this Tower Of Valni, which is basically (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), an always accessible grinding spot to battle monsters.

But you never HAVE to visit the tower, do you? This game actually looks interesting to me, and I remember (though it was a few years back) Amelia being hyped up as the best character in the game... Is she like Nino or Est or something, and has thus died out with the wave of low turncount runs?

Basically, I'm saying that I actually really want to play ths one, regardless of easyness or whatever.

[Flying Shogi]

http://serenesforest...=1

It's a pretty cool hack since it depowers Seth (though I still think he's the best unit) powers up enemies (especially monsters) and removes Sacred Twins effective bonuses, so it addresses multiple problems.

Thanks.

[kel]

But you never HAVE to visit the tower, do you?

No, you are never forced into the tower or any of the other optional creature areas. Amelia is really weak at first and hard to train without tower abuse, but she ends up with really high speed and luck, and other decent stats all around.

[chococoke]

In a nutshell:

-FE8 is too easy

-Both lords seem kind of lacking in terms of personality. Though I kind if laughed at the storyline and skipped every cutscene involving Lyon

-Again, too easy

Even without Seth, I'd say FE8's HM is easier than HHM.

[General Banzai]

I'm gonna throw out that Ghost Ship is more difficult than anything HHM has to offer. Although I'll agree that HHM as a whole is more difficult.

[RNG Princess]

The enemies have the same growths and bases as FE7, the difficulties should be around the same. What makes FE8 easier is the world map, it gives access to the tower/ruins and shops/armories giving the player an easier time compared to FE7. I happen to like FE8 the most of the GBA FE's and I think it has the better story compared to the other GBA FE's, I also really liked the branch promotions and the characters.

@ Cynthia: Ephraim was just there to be "cool" I guess, out of the two lords he seemed to be the unnecessary one.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Just call me AL]

I found FE7's and FE9's stories more interesting than FE8's. I also found the characters in said games far more interesting than in this one. Ephraim wasn't exactly engaging. In fact, another user already mentioned that he's hailed to be a great tactician, despite him not living up to the hype. Eirika is also too dependant on him for her own good, and does happen to fall in love with someone who basically treats her like some sort of object in one of her endings. Lyon, while I liked that he does have feelings for Eirika, I admit that the Ephraim fanboying felt forced, and seemed like an empty reason for a motive.

Gameplay wise, I did like the idea branched classes and innate class skills. But like Seven Deadly Sins said, one choice is inherently better than the other, with Paladin > Great Knight and Bishop/Mage Knight > Sage being examples of that. As such, having one class option better than the other class option defeats the purpose of branched promotions. And not to mention the lack of difficulty.

[Thor Odinson]

I'm gonna throw out that Ghost Ship is more difficult than anything HHM has to offer. Although I'll agree that HHM as a whole is more difficult.

Battle Before Dawn, man.

So luck-based. Urgh.

FE8's actually one of my favorite FEs, Seth being my favorite character in the whole series helps, and it was my first FE as well. I find it's a great game to do themed runs with, making it a nice change from doing regular runs. 's also nice when I want to run through a game quickly, since it's short and Seth exists to make it shorter.