Pokemon Crystal Ratings

[Zkirsche]

It's hard to swallow Ratata > Cyndaquil, cyndaquil may have a bit of a drought in terms of good attacking moves in the 20s, but his stellar gym leader performances along with a strong third tier in terms of typhlosion make him much better than a normal type with bad durability and worse gym domination.

[Espinosa]

Wait. Rage is considered a good attack? Even earlygame I found it much faster to gum things to death with Scratch and Water Gun than Rage.

Anyway I think that for a typical player, having a team of 2 combat Pokemon is probably the easiest way to go through the game because it allows for not only sufficient overleveling but also a way to cover weaknesses and a contingency plan in case the other faints. Soloing the game is a bit less safe and is rather stifling on discussion.

I only remembered using Rage from RBY, where you were stuck using it if you chose it once. In GSC, it ups your attack one level after every blow you take and you can switch to a stronger move, be it Scratch, Headbutt, Earthquake or anything else once you're ready for a sweep.

Totodile's Rage is really good for gyms, as I found out after it was brought up in this thread. For example, Whitney's Miltank can be a difficult Pokemon to face. But she opens with Clefairy, who likes using Double Slap. Use Rage against it and you'll get +2 attack per each Double Slap. When it's Miltank's turn, your attack is so high that she can't do Milk Drink loop to survive anymore.

I guess Rage's proved value ups other Pokemon that have access to the move, namely Tauros, but also Dodio, Snubbull and Dunsparce.

It's hard to swallow Ratata > Cyndaquil, cyndaquil may have a bit of a drought in terms of good attacking moves in the 20s, but his stellar gym leader performances along with a strong third tier in terms of typhlosion make him much better than a normal type with bad durability and worse gym domination.

I'm looking at it too right now, and I'm not liking it either, lol. Perhaps I should give more prominence to super-effective STABs when deciding the rating. There's no denial though, that Quilava is a burden for the team a lot during a very large portion of the maingame. Last time I played 2nd gen with Cyndaquil as my starter, I almost wanted to shout at it. Everything else I trained just performed a lot better in comparison. I'll see if I should push down Rattata/Sentret, move Cyndaquil up, or leave it be - probably going to have to rate more stuff to be able to compare things more easily.

[dondon151]

I only remembered using Rage from RBY, where you were stuck using it if you chose it once. In GSC, it ups your attack one level after every blow you take and you can switch to a stronger move, be it Scratch, Headbutt, Earthquake or anything else once you're ready for a sweep.

I'm 99% sure that atk increases from Rage only apply to subsequent uses of Rage, not to any other attack.

[Espinosa]

That's what I thought too. I did some testing on Pokemon Online with Salamence (which I gave Rage), and when it got hit after using Rage, I got an attack boost, which displayed as +1 when I pointed my mouse at it, therefore affecting all physical attacks I put on it.

I think that's how it works in the actual game too, haven't tested it there just yet though. Bulbapedia lists Rage as not having gone through any change since the first generation (where you were stuck using Rage until you died or the battle was over).

[Zkirsche]

http://serebii.net/pokedex/156.shtml

Tm48 is fire punch, and as seen here quilava can learn it. And this is easily obtained from goldenrod, so actually, I don't believe quilava is a burden at all, considering his statistics aren't bad IIRC. In fact, with this in mind, I'd say that cyndaquil should be raised to near-totodile levels. Cyndaquil is a perfectly valid choice in efficient runs with this in mind, as I really don't see any flaws. He'll only struggle against the dragon users I guess, and pryce. He's easily deserving an 8 or an 8.5.

[Espinosa]

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Fire_Punch_%28move%29

http://pokedream.com/pokedex/pokemon/quilava?gen=2

Both these credible sources suggest otherwise. I don't remember Quilava having Fire Punch on any of my runs ever, either.

Totodile has access to early Surf, Quilava is stuck with Ember for a very long time. Quilava doesn't get Rage either, so it is unable to setup to be able to face strong Gym Leader Pokemon single-handedly (which I now know Totodile and its evolutions can). Indeed, Cyndaquil is particularly helpful in many gyms, which is something I took into consideration when forming the final verdict, but there were also shortcomings that I couldn't ignore. IMO, Magmar is a lot better than Cyndaquil from any point of view besides availability. I'll explain why later, but for now I just want to remind you that Ember as your strongest move at lv. 30 just doesn't cut it.

Also, Pryce is perhaps the only battle where Typhlosion (hopefully he's fully evolved by that point) is perfectly comfortable. Seal and Dewgong don't have any water-type attacks, and Piloswine doesn't have any ground-type attacks. Typhlosion just Thunderpunches the first two and Firepunches Piloswine.

[samthedigital]

dondon151 is right in that Rage increases the Pokemon's attack by 1 stage, but only if Rage is used. The attack stat is normal for every other move. I tested this in the game just to be sure. Anyway, Rage is notable for two reasons. Totodile and Cyndaquil don't get a STAB move until level 13 and level 12 respectively, and Totodile is the only starter that doesn't need excessive Potion use, training or luck to take the Pokemon on in Falkner's Gym. Scratch takes around 8 hits to take out trainers in Falkner's gym whereas Rage takes 5, but that doesn't take into account that Potions don't have to be used as much because Totodile doesn't have to fight as many rounds of combat. Rage remains useful as an attacking move up until after beating the rival the second time. Whitney is the exception to the rule, but Rage is completely useless after that.

Edited August 19, 2011 by samthedigital

[Espinosa]

Oh yeah, I should correct by saying that subsequent use of Rage does nothing about the user's attack stat. You need to be attacked on the same turn or the next one (if you're slower) if you want to receive a boost to attack. So if the enemy Pokemon decides to go crazy on debuffs or whatever, instead of doing direct damage, Rage will only be a waste of time. However, get hit by something like Fury Attack or Fury Swipes, and your attack will skyrocket.

[dondon151]

Right. But that only applies to Rage. A +2 atk Rage has the same base power as an unboosted Scratch. At +4 atk, it has the same base power as a STAB unboosted Water Gun (but Totodile has more atk than spa). Given that most enemies don't use multi-hit attacks like Fury Swipes, and given that you have to get hit first in order to power up Rage, it kind of sucks as an attack. Maybe it's more useful earlygame against trainers with many Pokemon, but I can't imagine it being very useful at all when Totodile gets STAB Water Gun at level 13.

[samthedigital]

I think that the Rage mechanics given by bulbapedia are false, but I don't know why. Two rage (the first without the boost) are almost equivalent to using two Scratch (being slightly weaker) while the third does more damage than three scratch attacks. After getting Water Gun Rage is still useful for 3 battles though, but the main point isn't that Rage is a good move, but that it lets Totodile fight enemies more efficiently than the other two starters early on.

[dondon151]

So Rage doesn't increment in power like a traditional stat boosting move? Otherwise, the 3rd use of Rage should have the same power as Scratch.

[Anouleth]

The issue with only evaluating contributions to an efficient run is that many, many pokemon do not make any contribution to an efficient run and thus end up unranked. It really depends on how you define "efficient run". If a player uses more than one pokemon, or uses Togepi, or does not use their starter, does that make the run inefficient?

[samthedigital]

So Rage doesn't increment in power like a traditional stat boosting move? Otherwise, the 3rd use of Rage should have the same power as Scratch.

I'm guessing it works like Rollout and doubles the base power every turn. It's the only option that makes sense given that it almost goes even after two turns and wins after three turns.

The issue with only evaluating contributions to an efficient run is that many, many pokemon do not make any contribution to an efficient run and thus end up unranked. It really depends on how you define "efficient run". If a player uses more than one pokemon, or uses Togepi, or does not use their starter, does that make the run inefficient?

I think that the best way to rank Pokemon is to assume they are being used without any other assumptions being made. Tier lists for some of the Fire Emblem series are done this way too.

[dondon151]

I'm guessing it works like Rollout and doubles the base power every turn. It's the only option that makes sense given that it almost goes even after two turns and wins after three turns.

If it works like Rollout, then it should go even in damage with Scratch on its second usage.

Hm. Where are you getting these damage figures from? Is it hearsay or are your reporting your observations from the game itself?

[Zkirsche]

Totodile has access to early Surf, Quilava is stuck with Ember for a very long time. Quilava doesn't get Rage either, so it is unable to setup to be able to face strong Gym Leader Pokemon single-handedly (which I now know Totodile and its evolutions can). Indeed, Cyndaquil is particularly helpful in many gyms, which is something I took into consideration when forming the final verdict, but there were also shortcomings that I couldn't ignore. IMO, Magmar is a lot better than Cyndaquil from any point of view besides availability. I'll explain why later, but for now I just want to remind you that Ember as your strongest move at lv. 30 just doesn't cut it.

I just played all the way up to pryce to test how well quilava does, and even with ember he is a force to be reckoned with. If you think he'll be typhlosion by pryce, then he'll have no trouble swatting the common trainers' who's pokemon stays around level 17 even on the route to the lake of rage. What does that mean? Even in the late 20s, ember is enough to sustain quilava's combat due to his sheer overlevelledness.

[samthedigital]

If it works like Rollout, then it should go even in damage with Scratch on its second usage.

Hm. Where are you getting these damage figures from? Is it hearsay or are your reporting your observations from the game itself?

I tested by playing the game. The damage doubles after every hit for Rollout, so after two uses it's 60 total base power to 80 for scratch.

[dondon151]

I'm assuming you meant Rage in that post. I meant going even in per-hit damage, not total damage, which I thought would be easier to observe. I also probably misinterpreted your results in your post aways back.

[samthedigital]

I meant Rollout since that's what I compared Rage to in terms of damage, but it was because I thought you were talking about total damage. It's not as easy to calculate per hit damage though without looking at the damage done directly with memory watcher or whatever, but I didn't really feel like going through the trouble.

[Espinosa]

The issue with only evaluating contributions to an efficient run is that many, many pokemon do not make any contribution to an efficient run and thus end up unranked. It really depends on how you define "efficient run". If a player uses more than one pokemon, or uses Togepi, or does not use their starter, does that make the run inefficient?

Using more than one Pokemon can be seen as efficient as when your main soloist fails to take on a tough Pokemon (perhaps unable to survive two attacks in a row), you can have back up that doesn't get knocked out in one hit (allowing you to use a Revive and then a Hyper Potion, or whatever is relevant). I also think that if you pick Chikorita as your starter, it is more efficient than not to dump her at some point (perhaps very early, like when your Geodude learns Rock Throw).

My vision of an efficient run in Pokemon is something not too restrained (i.e. you're not exactly forced to use any particular Pokemon), yet I do penalise lack of availability and immediate effective options for offence in my ratings. I'm not equating an efficient run to, say, a speed run, because the latter demands a lot of attempts to achieve a desirable outcome. In my ratings, I value convenience/safety in addition to efficiency in availability and strength right off the bat, because I do believe it is inefficient to have to reset several times for a strategy to work.

I just played all the way up to pryce to test how well quilava does, and even with ember he is a force to be reckoned with. If you think he'll be typhlosion by pryce, then he'll have no trouble swatting the common trainers' who's pokemon stays around level 17 even on the route to the lake of rage. What does that mean? Even in the late 20s, ember is enough to sustain quilava's combat due to his sheer overlevelledness.

Were you using other Pokemon, too? Being underlevelled isn't such a problem when you're facing generic trainers (it's mostly gyms and elites that feature higher-levelled pokes), but when Quilava is decent at burning things with Ember, other Pokemon will be even better at it with good STABs with more than 40 base power. It's not impossible to beat things up with Ember, it's just it's far from the best way to do it. 7 out of 10 is hardly a poor score, mind you.

[Espinosa]

Spearow

One of the Pokemon exclusive to Route 46 for a while is Spearow, definitely a big improvement to Pidgey and Hoothoot whom you'll be catching if you're too lazy to stray from the path to Cherrygrove. However, Spearow really does make the brief trip worth it.

Everything that applies to Pidgey and Hoothoot in terms of learnset and type effectiveness against the various gym leaders and elites applies to Spearow as well. Well, besides the ability to to put things to sleep lol. However, unlike Pidgey, Spearow takes only until lv. 20 to fully evolve (and it is quite a heavy hitter before the evolution too), and it doesn't suffer from offensive impotence like Hoothoot and its evolution.

Spearow is the most offensive of the three early birds, starting with Peck and being able to destroy those early game bugs with ease. Evolved at lv. 20, Fearow is very strong at that point of the game, and can serve the team until the very end game effectively, which cannot be applied the same way to its other bird competitors.

Drill Peck is learnt only at lv. 40, probably on time for Bruno and his fighters (who all had a noticeable special defence increase since gen 1's special split, making psychic-type counters less effective), so Fearow might want to make use of Fly until then, which has 10 less base power, worse accuracy and requires two turns to use. Until then, Peck for grass-types, bugs and fighters is sufficient, and it can utilise Swift/Return as reliable normal-type STABs for everything else that it might face.

Rating: 8/10

[Zkirsche]

Were you using other Pokemon, too? Being underlevelled isn't such a problem when you're facing generic trainers (it's mostly gyms and elites that feature higher-levelled pokes), but when Quilava is decent at burning things with Ember, other Pokemon will be even better at it with good STABs with more than 40 base power. It's not impossible to beat things up with Ember, it's just it's far from the best way to do it. 7 out of 10 is hardly a poor score, mind you.

It is for a very solid starter, and what other pokemon can do is superfluous. And yes, I was using otehr pokemon: two in fact. (Poliwag and a Raticate).

And there is no way in hell spearow does more throughout the game than cyndaquil can do. I can accept totodile > cyndaquil, but I will never accept spearow > cyndaquil. You are vastly exaggerating the problems with a 40 STAB move. He could even just use headbutt or something and deal very good damage with a chance to flinch.

Drill Peck is learnt only at lv. 40, probably on time for Bruno and his fighters

This is completely false, cyndaquil just barely managed to become typhlosion by pryce, and even with 2 pokemon, they're not reaching level 40 by Chuck. If they are, then Quilava really doesn't face any problems as he'll become a typhlosion by Morty.

[Espinosa]

I said Bruno, not Chuck. I'm not sure if I'd recommend that you send your Fearow out against Poliwrath... perhaps after it's weakened a bit? I wouldn't want it to eat a Dynamicpunch, or even a Surf. Lv. 40 Fearow is very feasible for the elite four.

And really, I don't see how anybody can believe Cyndaquil > Spearow. Spearow loses only a little in availability, and at such a point in the game where it can fixed in a matter of seconds. Spearow doesn't wait for lv. 12 to learn a move that OHKOs all the bugs and Bellsprouts around. At lv. 20, it has 90 base attack, while Quilava has 64 and no physical STAB. I'd rather kill things with Swift, then hope for Headbutt to work. Typhlosion's endgame movepool is richer, but Thunderpunch and Earthquake on it are about as useful as Steel Wing on Fearow - much like Typhlosion won't really be Thunderpunching Slowbro without facing a much bigger threat, Fearow won't be using Steel Wing on Jynx either.

Cyndaquil and Spearow are Pokemon who both take care of similar type weaknesses, and really, Spearow does the job better and has no period where it is below average in performance, and if I had to choose one of these two to use in a run, I'd choose Spearow.

[Venusaur]

Cyndaquil and Spearow are Pokemon who both take care of similar type weaknesses, and really, Spearow does the job better and has no period where it is below average in performance, and if I had to choose one of these two to use in a run, I'd choose Spearow.

Another thing to add to this is that choosing Spearow over Cyndaquil also lets you choose a different starter that can take care of Rock/Grounds. Spearow and Totodile make a decent combo for earlygame, as they cover their early-game weaknesses well.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

You should point out the spearow you get in goldenrod at lv20.

While it misses sprout tower and bugsy, Its still good and wont even need any training in compare to otherwilds at that point of came, thus letting you to put more in totodile/cyndaquil. Also 1 lv away of fearow is sweet

[Espinosa]

Another thing to add to this is that choosing Spearow over Cyndaquil also lets you choose a different starter that can take care of Rock/Grounds. Spearow and Totodile make a decent combo for earlygame, as they cover their early-game weaknesses well.

Great idea! I should think about possible team synergies when rating specific Pokemon.

You should point out the spearow you get in goldenrod at lv20.

While it misses sprout tower and bugsy, Its still good and wont even need any training in compare to otherwilds at that point of came, thus letting you to put more in totodile/cyndaquil. Also 1 lv away of fearow is sweet

The problem is that the Spearow you get is only lv. 10 in the 2nd generation (it is indeed lv. 20 in gen 4, ready to evolve, as you pointed out). So if one is to make use of Spearow in this generation, catching one at the earliest convenience is the best idea.