Esaka

Meta Knight is banned for all tourney's following official rules.

60 posts in this topic

The irony of those videos is that I played DLA, Arty, and YoshQ about 3 weeks ago at IMDB

I'm surprised Arty went G&W vs Ganon. Perhaps he wanted to train his G&W or maybe just agreed to do it with DLA.

Edited by Coconut&Lime

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"It is funny how some people put hints of shame if you got beaten by a low tier character when a lot of the time it really shouldn't matter."

This is very true, yet I do it myself too sometimes, LOL. I mean, I always scoff at such behavior and laugh if my Link manages to get a win against anybody.

"Dony Kong does not look like that bad a matchup, just kind of annoying that his air back kick is like the most annoying thing ever."

DK's back air is really good for spacing purposes and easily his best aerial for overall purposes.

At any rate, Ganondorf sucks, but is still good in the right hands.

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I'm not saying that those that play top tier should be shamed to be beaten by low tier, rather the opposite. Great pride to win with characters who have a clear disadvantage/take serious execution to win. That, and some players you just know are tier whores, playing just cause they saw a tier list and saw someone was the best, and thus picked him. Kinda how one can tell how strong top tier is with how many people play the best. If I recall correctly, usage of Meta Knight was out of control, much like in Street Fighter 4 AE the metagame was basically "Play Hong Kong or Seth". Not sure how bad tourneys got with Brawl and Meta Knight, but the past like...10 tourneys with top 8 was basically the same 5 characters (Yun, Yang, Seth, Viper, Fei Long), and there was no real questions. Like, that's how it is in AE it's so bad.

Like, exhibit A.

I dunno who this meta knight player is, but he's either a tier whore, or it's a perfect example that you would never see this shit in Street Fighter 4.

People bitch about Brawl, but after seeing AE and that piece of shit's at EVO, consider me a fan. This Vermanubis fellow is my hero.

Also, I can see why Meta Knight's so dumb. Not only is he mobile, damaging and fast along with the ability to actually gank you, but his sword in tandem with how small and mobile a target he is makes him near unpunishable. He is the lamest play character I've ever seen who doesn't have fireballs or limbs. I saw Meta doing nothing but play keep away until he could land a stupidly easy gank.

Seriously, this is a weak Meta and I can STILL see how bullshit he is. Here's to this fucker getting banned.

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This meta is not weak, it's just that Vermanubis is strong in comparison. Top 10000 Meta Knight against top 5 Ganondorf. And in Tampora 2 (a Finnish tournament last summer), Riolu came top 9 out of like, 40-50 participants. Using Ganondorf. And he isn't even close to top 9 in the Power Rankings, plus we had players from Sweden there. He went against the odds, beat everyone on his level with a "handicapped" character and many more. I think this result just goes to prove that really no character in Brawl is unplayably bad. But hey, one tournament and stuff. All characters have their good moves and gimmicks, it's just that all others are generally better or have specialization in their gamestyle.

But obviously there are many better metas out there too, and as long as the meta doesn't plank much, Ganondorf actually has a somewhat usable fighting chance against him. If on the ledge.. It sucks as a Ganondorf, but that is acknowledged in Ganondorf's metagame and there are strategies around it - whereas no Meta player would probably be knowledgeable about Ganondorf's metagame and expect them to use such strategies to prevent planking ahead of time. If it's good, use it. If you can't, figure a way to defeat it.

Well, mobility and attack speed are pretty much given for all the high tiers, not just MK. Marth has better punishment options, has a much faster walk speed (dashing instead of walking limits your options, so this is actually important), a better range and auto-cancelling aerials which do more damage, etc. The thing is, that's only what Marth is good at. Meta Knight is pretty good with all that stuff and plenty others, plus Tornado has a mad priority - it can eat most projectiles without cancelling, Meta Knight has a much better ledge game and gimping ability, and has like, 6 jumps. That equals serious air pressure, and you're always in the air if you've been hit offstage or have to approach when MK is planking.

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I would prefer you use the term matchup instead of meta. The meta emplies the entire game and what sort of strategies work best within it and generally how it's played. Like, Brawl seems to have a metagame that favors very floaty, defensive, and predictive play. The matchup is just how two characters best fight one another. For example, when fighting Ganondorf I would imagine that being in constant movement causes him nightmares. Generally, he just seems to punish foolish movement with huge ranged normals like his flip kick and his stomp, all of which can also kill. Generally he seems to be able to get the most after a forward B, as it forces you on the ground. It reminds me of Tager's Gadget Finger in that it forces the opponent into specific oki (a word I'm sure never occurs in the Brawl world). You basically have to either roll one way, another, or jump after he gets you in this grab, and this leaves you in a more predictable situation than usual, which he has more tools than at neural to hit you with (such as catching a roll behind you with a down Smash, for catching a backroll with another forward B, etc). His spiking also seems really good, especially his down A in the air, since it hits so hard it can basically spike you on solid ground.

He seems most helpless when he's trying to get back on stage, or even when the enemy is off the stage, since he doesn't want to get off stage himself. However, I think a bit of riskiness should be called for when Ganon has people off stage when he has a stock lead, even moreso if they're 1 stock from death. At worst, you screw up and you come back at "unkillable" percentage of damage. Ganon as I know basically has 3 spikes in the air, 2 of which are suicidal. His thunder stomp is a solid one, but if it means you kill the enemy and you're at no risk, there's no reason not to milk it with attempts at doing a forward or down b to send them to hell. Hell, let's say the enemy is off the ledge and you're tied, but at a major disadvantage. Just reset the situation with a suicide attempt.

I dunno, good as this Ganon play is, I just feel there could be more room to be risky with him. Can you cancel a down B from the air with a forward B? If so, that's a tricky suicide dive setup he could attempt if it's to secure him a victory.

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I think this result just goes to prove that really no character in Brawl is unplayably bad.

This is a really bad conclusion to make. If your justification is that there is 1 guy in the entire world that manages to be competitive at a high level with a terrible character, then your statement really has no meaning whatsoever because you're just basically saying that skill trumps a matchup chart. That's trivial.

Also in consideration is what is the definition of "unplayable." If your goal is to win tournaments (and not small local tournaments), you're already shooting yourself in the foot by picking a low tier character. You're probably never going to get top 1, top 4, etc. because your character's matchups are just that bad. That constitutes "unplayable" in my book.

Generally he seems to be able to get the most after a forward B, as it forces you on the ground. It reminds me of Tager's Gadget Finger in that it forces the opponent into specific oki (a word I'm sure never occurs in the Brawl world). You basically have to either roll one way, another, or jump after he gets you in this grab, and this leaves you in a more predictable situation than usual, which he has more tools than at neural to hit you with (such as catching a roll behind you with a down Smash, for catching a backroll with another forward B, etc).

You see a lot more of this in Melee. Reason number 14 why Brawl sucks, etc. We just call that a tech chase, though.

Edited by dondon151

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Kirby's only good move in melee apart from utilt it seems lol

Darn it, the video time didn't stay intact, oh well. Still, how does one play against Kirby or Pichu for that matter? NO one plays them. Edited by Coconut&Lime

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Some of the arguments here are lol.

You have to play the game at tournaments to understand why MK is banned. He breaks smash's counterpick system. I have experienced this first-hand. I usually have to think a lot in order to counterpick someone somewhere. Like, I could counterpick this guy who uses peach to frigate but then I have to think that he could have a pocket Metaknight. I could go Rainbow Cruise against a snake, but what If that guy seconds Metaknight and picks him? I got tired of the above things and picked up Metaknight as a secondary. After a while, I found myself using him more and more over my other characters because there is NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT when picking him. Its completely safe to double blind pick him. He has no bad matchups and no bad stages. Hell, no one even goes even with him. -_-

Needless to say, after another while, I got tired of using Metaknight myself and started using my other characters again (Toon Link- main, Marth- secondary) and turned myself into pro-ban when I was REALLY ANTI BAN BEFORE. I especially hate Metaknight in teams. Literally EVERY team in brawl has to have a metaknight. Im a fan of brawl teams but when it comes to character diversity, brawl teams sucked hard. Now, with MK gone, Im expecting to see some very creative team combinations ^^.

Oh, and Im part of the guys that make the matchup chart :p. I write my opinions and findings in each matchup for Toon Link. I havent applied for Marth but I dont think I could contribute that much for marth as my Marth is mostly a carbon copy of european marths >.> unlike my Toon Link which is my own style.

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"I would prefer you use the term matchup instead of meta."

In that post, I shortened the name "Meta Knight" to just calling him Meta. (although looking back, I didn't capitalize it all the time)

Most command grab specials in Brawl are quite useful, but Ganondorf's is really good. It's a major part of his game, at least.

"This is a really bad conclusion to make."

The very next sentence in my post tells you that I don't still think of making a rule out of an example.

"You're probably never going to get top 1, top 4, etc. because your character's matchups are just that bad. That constitutes "unplayable" in my book."

I guess that's very right, but there still is the chance, as you said. I talked in an earlier post about how high on a level you look at things, though, and mentioned this. If not getting to top 200 worldwide is "unplayable" to you, I guess it is, then.

Edited by mmKALLL

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