ITT I rank the characters

[I.M. Gei]

No one cares about endgame in FE9 because it's "Ike wrecks Ashnard and nobody else even matters."

[Snowy_One]

No one cares about endgame in FE9 because it's "Ike wrecks Ashnard and nobody else even matters."

Different times. Ike quick-killing Ashnard had not been discussed to my memory. Edit: Also remember that 'endgame' doesn't mean just the final chapter but, more or less, the final third/quarter of the game.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Snowy_One

[I.M. Gei]

Even then, it's not like Titania is "mediocre" in that last stretch of the game; she still doubles everything that needs to be doubled, she's still very much an immortal killing machine... really, she has other units to compete with now, but it's not like she's going to be a terrible lategame unit unless you just didn't use her for whatever reason, and she has still been irreplaceable during the first two thirds of the game.

[dondon151]

I still find it ridiculous that people would go so far as to assume that units can claim possession of entire weapons throughout their entire existence. It's an overly simplifying assumption that bears no resemblance to how one actually plays the game. When you have a limited resource, you'll distribute it however you think it will benefit you the most, not just blindly assigning it to a unit.

[Interceptor]

hey look, now we just need narga in this topic and it'll be like the good ol' days

Narga posted in this topic, so in terms of how closely you pay attention, it seems like the good old days are already here.

So, there are too many problems with this list to tackle them all, but picking one at random: Brom's placement at 6.0 seems a little bit silly, I can't figure out why you put him where you did.

There's his mobility, for one. I can understand why you don't personally find his MV to be a problem, what with your molasses style of play. But if mobility is no big deal, then why is there such a huge 4.5 gap between Mia and Marcia? Aside from lances in place of swords, and a pegasus, they are essentially the same unit, right? Given the massive premium that mobility is given in rankings in this case, why is Brom's "worst mobility in the game" getting hand-waved? Mia is doing cartwheels around him, and even the sages at least are lightweight, plus have freedom of movement in the desert.

And then there is the Knight Ward. Brom's modest offensive prowess is completely reliant on this item, which is a big problem for him. First, he is hogging it away from other deserving units that can benefit from it (even Titania wants this thing), which is a mortal sin in your world. To minimize his impact in a team, you nearly have to custom-build one that doesn't want the KW. Second, it takes forever to see any returns on this training, which suggests he spends a large portion of the game just playing catch-up (combat-wise AND geographically) with the rest of the team, not performing. And it's not even clear that there's much time left in the game once he finally gets there, considering that you are deploying 10 people in every chapter that the game allows you to. By the way, do you max out your deployment slots on "Clash!"?

Finally there's his vaunted durability, for which I have but one rhetorical question: were you aware that Brom spends a large portion of his career facing OHKO threats from Thunder mages, because his RES/LCK is horrible? Themoreyouknow.jpg.

[Snowy_One]

Even then, it's not like Titania is "mediocre" in that last stretch of the game; she still doubles everything that needs to be doubled, she's still very much an immortal killing machine... really, she has other units to compete with now, but it's not like she's going to be a terrible lategame unit unless you just didn't use her for whatever reason, and she has still been irreplaceable during the first two thirds of the game.

Imagine if it wasn't talked about ever though or when it was the people supporting her were more than willing to give her multiple forges while you had to fight for even one forge. I think it was pretty much solely that one thing that turned me off to the concept of the overleveled early-game unit, how it was either never talked about or, when it was, given immense benefits while I had to argue for even basic things.

[Anouleth]

Titania isn't mediocre in lategame. Not only does she have higher strength, defense, and indeed everything except for HP/SKL/SPD than Mia (not a problem since Titania can double everything but SMs with some KW use), she also has a much stronger weapon type. If Titania is mediocre in lategame, then Mia is bad.

[Life]

Different times. Ike quick-killing Ashnard had not been discussed to my memory. Edit: Also remember that 'endgame' doesn't mean just the final chapter but, more or less, the final third/quarter of the game.

I SMELL HYPOCRISY!

Seriously, Snowy. Whenever you talk about Endgame, you usually pull up stats that ONLY exist in the Final chapter. I should know, I've known you for years (I think since about 2007) and have debated against you a couple times. Nice try but not this time.

[Snowy_One]

You... didn't even bother to think before calling me a hypocrite, did you? Did you think that there may have been a reason behind why I used 20/20 stats? Namely because, back then, it was assumed that units would hit 20/20 near the endgame and, instead of nitpicking away at the levels to figure out exactly where they were and what stats they would have, it was easier to just assume that they would be near 20/20 and utilize a bit of logic for them (ergo, if unit X has enough STR to kill at 20/20, then they will likely have about as much STR at 20/17, especially if their growth is under 50%). I admit I still use them today, but as a 'high water mark' for units (how strong they will likely get) instead of hard fact.

[Anouleth]

I usually assume that characters will be near 20/15 for Endgame in HM. 20/20 is a little bit high, I think, only characters like Astrid, Geoffrey, Titania, Jill, Tanith, and Marcia would reach it.

[Life]

You... didn't even bother to think before calling me a hypocrite, did you? Did you think that there may have been a reason behind why I used 20/20 stats? Namely because, back then, it was assumed that units would hit 20/20 near the endgame and, instead of nitpicking away at the levels to figure out exactly where they were and what stats they would have, it was easier to just assume that they would be near 20/20 and utilize a bit of logic for them (ergo, if unit X has enough STR to kill at 20/20, then they will likely have about as much STR at 20/17, especially if their growth is under 50%). I admit I still use them today, but as a 'high water mark' for units (how strong they will likely get) instead of hard fact.

No Snowy, you'd compare performances in Endgame. Like Final chapter. It's why I called you out the second I read it.

Besides, the bold is wrong. Remember the math lesson I gave you on percentages? Still counts.

[Progenitus]

I like how a flame war with snowy has taken over my ranking topic even though snowy actually has his own ranking topic.

Narga posted in this topic, so in terms of how closely you pay attention, it seems like the good old days are already here.

Oh, you're actually right, although since he hasn't actually flamed me yet, it doesn't quite count.

[Snowy_One]

Nah. It's mainly just Life being his usual anti-snowy self. I mean, the 'lesson' he 'taught' me was that, if a unit has 9.8 in X stat, I have to consider it to be a practical 9 instead of rounding it to a 10 when talking about how they handle in combat and he said this in a topic where he tried to pass Astra off as a good thing.

[Life]

Nah. It's mainly just Life being his usual anti-snowy self. I mean, the 'lesson' he 'taught' me was that, if a unit has 9.8 in X stat, I have to consider it to be a practical 9 instead of rounding it to a 10 when talking about how they handle in combat and he said this in a topic where he tried to pass Astra off as a good thing.

I think I'll quote the actual mistake.

You see, when a unit levels up, they have a percent chance to increase in a certain statistic. If a unit has a 40% growth rate, then four out of every ten level-ups they will gain a stat. So a unit that has leveled up twice with a 40% growth rate has a 80% chance of having gotten the statistic and only a 20% chance of not having gotten one at all.

Sound familiar?

[Lord Raven]

Ike too.

[Dark Sage]

Soren's MAG growth is already very high, Ilyana would rather have a speed band, Tormod won't even exist until chapter 16, and Calill joins too high level for a band to be of any real use (and nobody cares about Bastion). Don't forget the dusts either. Mia gains +4 attack from supports as well which was key in getting her to the point where she could reliably kill.

So you admit the healers are much better band recipients than Mia.

Look at it from my point of view at the time. Zihark needs Muarim to be as good as he is and Muarim could be interchanged with another Laguz and had a very real possibility of being out of range. Mia only 'needed' Rhys/Ilyana if she was going with the SS, otherwise her better skill selection and earlier join time was worth far more. Stefan, meanwhile, needs you to divert a laguz for a full chapter and comes in with other units on the team capable of doing what he did better.

This doesn't really make sense. No laguz for one is as good as Muarim (Lethe and Janaff have attack issues, Ulki and Mordecai have gauge and speed issues) so he's not really interchangeable with another laguz. For another, Mia's jointime isn't anything to write home about. Sure, it's cool she's around for a few more chapters than Zihark, but she's not really doing all that much. She is arguably deadweight in Chapter 7 for one thing. In Chapter 8, she can get some BEXP and then 2RKO armors with an Armorslayer, functioning as a weaker Ike with the rest of the enemies. Chapter 9 she goes to the beach to help clear out the bandits and mages which can be a little helpful. It's mostly self improvement though. Chapter 10 is almost certainly going to be stealthed, so Mia is not going to be doing anything there. Zihark joins in Chapter 11. So basically, Mia has only two chapters where she can be useful and even then, she's still not contributing that much. A 13/0 Mia (likely by the time Zihark joins) has around the same base parameters with an attack and defense advantage of 1, though she loses HP by two IIRC. They're pretty much on par and Zihark can also be BEXP'd.

In addition, Vantage isn't worth "far more" than Adept. Sure, it's a reliable skill but prepromotion, Mia's not really doing much with it, only killing severely weakened enemies with it to avoid a counter. Zihark's Adept could possibly allow for a ORKO. Once Wrath rolls around, Mia's not even the best with it. The correct answer is Ike, who can use it to great effect to smash Ashnard's and the Burger King's faces in when combo'd with Resolve. And just like how Mia can combine Wrath with Vantage, Zihark can combine Adept with Vantage. Sure, it's worse, but there's less opportunity cost with it. The h4x avoid he can achieve thanks to his supports can aid in his durability and he has comparable stats to Mia. So he's pretty durable, he has a good skill, and he is very similar statistically. Obviously Mia>>Zihark.

As for Stefan, recruitment costs are silly arguments. Also he didn't require resources and training like Mia and Zihark did.

I won't deny that it wasn't the most equal comparison (Zihark having trouble keeping up with Muarim, but Rhys/Ilyana not having trouble with Mia), but to acknowledge a shortcoming back then was to give a opening for smash to bash in.

That's a terrible excuse. None of us here seem to absolutely hate Mia the way smash seems to and you don't even argue with him anymore. If anything, it's because you're gaga for Mia.

That was never my argument. My argument was that Mia could take wrath, and then if the situation called for it, take either the dusts or band to utilize the SS. Not all three at once.

I don't really care. Tanith absolutely shitstomps Mia with it since she has 10 base magic, 20-something AS, and 9 move and that's enough to ORKO all the wyverns with it anyway. The high base magic means Tanith could possibly be dusted should she desire an increase in offense with it. Basically only Mist and Tanith really get a major benefit out of it. It gives the former offense on the level of Boyd and the latter is serviceable with it (both have higher move than Mia). Giving Mia a dust or banding her throughout her entire career just to make her useful with it is pretty unimpressive really.

1) At the time 20/20 stats were considered the likely endgame (unlike the seemingly 20/10 stats on SF).

Just because it was accepted then doesn't mean you should continue arguing with such logic.

2) I REALLY hate the prepromoted early-game units and how people always seem to pop them up at the top of the list without even talking about their (usually lack-luster) endgame.

I don't really care about your personal biases. Just because you personally don't like them doesn't mean you should be claiming incorrect stuff about them.

People already jumped you about Titania doesn't even suck or is mediocre in Endgame, so I'll say nothing about that. I just don't see why the endgame is so important to you. Or your definition anyway. If a unit has been much more useful than other units throughout the game and then has a mediocre or bad late game, then that character should of course be high.

tl;dr version is, as usual, you are wrong.

@Smash: I think Elincia could go up by maybe a .5 point. She has high move and instant A in staves for the Rescue staff, which can be pretty useful to have.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Dark Sage

[Anouleth]

Chapter 10 is almost certainly going to be stealthed, so Mia is not going to be doing anything there.

Um, why are we almost certainly going to stealth it? I never stealth Chapter 10 any more. The strategy is boring, easy to make a mistake on (forcing a restart), slower than fighting your way through and doesn't provide appreciably more experience iirc. Snowy is clearly trying to consider a wide range of strategies, and while we could get into a debate about what that does or doesn't mean, it should be perfectly obvious that both ways to clear the chapter should be considered.

As for Stefan, recruitment costs are silly arguments. Also he didn't require resources and training like Mia and Zihark did.

I agree. I don't think that anyone should be penalised for their recruitment cost. It's one thing to say that, for example, Soren might not get the Stefan support because we won't always recruit him, but it's ridiculous to say that Stefan is a bad character because we won't always recruit him.

[Dark Sage]

Um, why are we almost certainly going to stealth it? I never stealth Chapter 10 any more. The strategy is boring, easy to make a mistake on (forcing a restart), slower than fighting your way through and doesn't provide appreciably more experience iirc. Snowy is clearly trying to consider a wide range of strategies, and while we could get into a debate about what that does or doesn't mean, it should be perfectly obvious that both ways to clear the chapter should be considered.

Sure, but I doubt Mia is doing anything useful if we bruteforce that map either. Most of the enemies are Armors, Archers, and Soldiers, so she's at a distinct disadvantage in this map.

I usually assume we're going to stealth the map because if we use say, Marcia and Jill, the large BEXP we get from it allows us to pump more levels into them and destroy everything than if we bruteforced. It also makes it easier to raise units like Nephenee as well.

Regarding recruitment costs, I think a lot of people agree with you Anouleth, except on like some grey area like Xavier (who's recruitment is the opposite of efficiency). I don't think we should penalize Xavier's recruitment personally since I want the recruitment costs (or lack thereof) to be consistent.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Dark Sage

[Anouleth]

Sure, but I doubt Mia is doing anything useful if we bruteforce that map either. Most of the enemies are Armors, Archers, and Soldiers, so she's at a distinct disadvantage in this map.

I usually assume we're going to stealth the map because if we use say, Marcia and Jill, the large BEXP we get from it allows us to pump more levels into them and destroy everything than if we bruteforced.

You can do that anyway. And again, Snowy is trying to consider a range of strategies, which presumably has breadth beyond deciding on whether it's Jill or Marcia that you want to give everything to and watch them kill everything.

Regarding recruitment costs, I think a lot of people agree with you Anouleth, except on like some grey area like Xavier (who's recruitment is the opposite of efficiency). I don't think we should penalize Xavier's recruitment personally since I want the recruitment costs (or lack thereof) to be consistent.

Penalising Xavier's recruitment would put him in an "unrecruited" tier, which I hate the idea of.

[Dark Sage]

You can do that anyway. And again, Snowy is trying to consider a range of strategies, which presumably has breadth beyond deciding on whether it's Jill or Marcia that you want to give everything to and watch them kill everything.

I did mention Nephenee. There's also Rolf, Mist, Brom, and later on if you still have a good amount left over, Astrid and Makalov, who appreciate the extra BEXP. Anyway I don't object to multiple strategies really. My main point was that Mia's performance in chapter 10 wasn't good and that her availability is not much of an advantage that Mia has over Zihark, which Snowy said it was.

Penalising Xavier's recruitment would put him in an "unrecruited" tier, which I hate the idea of.

IIRC, Bblader made an FE5 list where he simply shoved Xavier into Low or Bottom tier and refused to listen to any arguments about moving him up. I think so anyway.

[aku chi]

No laguz for one is as good as Muarim (Lethe and Janaff have attack issues, Ulki and Mordecai have gauge and speed issues) so he's not really interchangeable with another laguz.

Lethe and Ranulf (when he joins) can replace Muarim. Full-transformed Lethe has almost identical stats to a Demi Band Muarim (Lethe has a little more Spd, Muarim has a little more Atk). Ranulf can match Muarim's stats with a Demi Band but might occasionally be full-transformed thanks to his situationally tolerable starting gauge. The only department in which Muarim is clearly winning is shove utility, which is quite minor (especially when compared with Ranulf).

[Lord Raven]

Penalising Xavier's recruitment would put him in an "unrecruited" tier, which I hate the idea of.

Leave it to Anouleth to contradict himself yet again. Tell me why you are saying this now when your viewpoints against ranking laguz royals were more or less placing them in an "unrecruited" tier like you are apparently against.

[Anouleth]

Leave it to Anouleth to contradict himself yet again. Tell me why you are saying this now when your viewpoints against ranking laguz royals were more or less placing them in an "unrecruited" tier like you are apparently against.

I don't feel like I have to tell you anything.

[Lord Raven]

Then you're fine looking like a self-contradicting debater who takes the worst possible extreme of others' arguments while not keeping his own consistent with each other.

[Anouleth]

Then you're fine looking like a self-contradicting debater who takes the worst possible extreme of others' arguments while not keeping his own consistent with each other.

Yes, I am.