Hoenn region tier list

[Smiley Jim]

I notice the complete lack of Anorith and Lileep on this tier list.

Where would you rank the two fossil dudes(in your opinion.) Personally, Anorith is about Lowmid-Mid thanks to his good offence and decent bulk. Lileep... I'd recommend Low, maybe Lowmid. Anything above that is pushing it. I didn't recommend them in the higher tiers because they DO show up after Lavaridge at Lv20(which, compared to the rest of the team, is 8-10 levels behind), they evolve pretty late at Lv40 for both fossils, and taking a look at their movepools, it isn't that great.

As for gym effectiveness, they'd be decent against Norman if sufficiently leveled, and can do the same with Winona somewhat if you are willing to use your precious TM39 on them(or grind Anorith to Lv37 so he learns AP, but since I'm assuming ~Lv30 at best for him, this isn't happening), even though neither want anything to do with Skarm, and Anorith doesn't want to take on Pelipper. And lolTateandLiza, though Cradily is probably better here due to having a non-Rock STAB option in Giga Drain(or Sunny Day+Solarbeam), as well as better special bulk since T+L throw nothing but special attacks in R/S, and only Claydol has physical attacks in Emerald. It's against Juan(Wallace in R/S)that their different typing makes a real difference. Cradily is fairly good against Juan thanks to STAB Giga Drain, his neutrality to water and high Sp.Def. Armaldo, on the other hand, gets raped. He can only take one Water Pulse before dying(compared to Cradily's 6+), and his speed is little better than his counterpart's. It doesn't help that AncientPower is weaker than Earthquake even after factoring in STAB.

As for the E4, both are roughly neutral against Sidney. Phoebe is a defense fest, so Armaldo wins since his atk isn't garbage. Glacia is a nightmare for Cradily due to all the Ice Beams flying around, not to mention that Walrein has both that and Surf, making Armaldo an automatic out as well. Dragonfest is worse for Cradily than it is for Armaldo since Armaldo can actually kill shit, assuming ~lv50, and in R/S, neither want anything to do with Steven. Cradily obviously wins against Wallace due to not flopping in one hit against Surf.

Edited February 6, 2012 by darkandroid125

[Shadow Mir]

Hmmmmm.

How 'bout Makuhita rising?

Its got a nice movepool.

Decent bulk

And has arm thrust/cross chop for stab.

As well as belly drum! Bulk up, EQ! Rock tomb, and return.

It can also surf for HM slave stuff.

And has counter/reversal too.

I'm not seeing Arm Thrust as all that good thanks to multi-hit unreliability (heck, only the likes of Cincinno and other Pokemon with either Skill Link or Technician would want to bother with multihit moves; granted, this is third gen we're talking about, but still). Also, Cross Chop has only 5 PP. In addition, it has to be bred onto Makuhita. And might I add, I'm not seeing Counter as all that useful when most major opponents near endgame specialize in special types, and Hariyama's much too slow to use Reversal effectively (aside from the fact that Reversal's learned at level 55, at which point the game's pretty much over). ...Besides, whatever is Makuhita doing in high tier?

Edited February 6, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[grandjackal]

The only thing I can think of is being the nly reliable fighting type you can find. Even then, I would question Senior Bag of Crap for a Head being on my team due to his slowness and the Hoenn region not being all that friendly to fighting types. I question him being above Aron.

In fact, there are many things wrong with this list.

-Treeko is in top? I don't give a shit how much availability he has and even ignoring the "he's not Mudkip" argument, he's bad offense on a bad offensive typing and mediocre defense on a meh defensive typing. What, he's in high because a lot of wild pokemon who give shit exp in this game in what is a gigantic ocean? Hooray, that pathetic exp pillow will make up for me sucking at every gym this game has to offer except for Roxanne, whm even the fire type can kick to the curb cause it evolves into a fighting type.

-By what miracle is Zangoose that high? What exactly does he do other than be completely meh? I'd put him above Shroomish's current position.

-Marill is above Carvahna. I will not stand for this blasphemy.

-Zigzagoon should be higher than that for being the world's best HM slave. Pretty sure the only HM he can't learn is Waterfall and Fly.

-May I ask what Absol is doing otu of Low Tier? Low encounter rate for something generally unimpressive and lacking in a movepool...

-Same with Whismur. Seriously, it's above SKARMORY.

-Anyone else feel that Solrock is underrated? Like seriously, am I the only one who's used him? You get him immediately at a time when he would be good: Against Flannery. Takes little damage and can hit back hard against her. Deals with Winona as well (even Skarmory since I recall Solrock gets a fire attack, or at least you can give him one). Outside of that, I recall him having decent ofense and speed, Levitate is always a good ability, I recall it gets calm mind.

Then again, t's been a while since I even touched the advance games. Not even sure why I'm talking about them, seeing as I hate the Hoenn series.

[MacLovin]

Grovyle gets stab leaf blade.

Runs off high sp attack.

Geodude learns magnitude, early, and helps with watson/flannery.

Whismur has a wide movepool and decent offensive stats.

Zangoose has swords dance+any other physical move that's stab/high power. And is good asap as you get it.

Solrock isn't meant for special attacking, but I see your point.

Both Solrock and Lunatone need to rise IMO.

Absol gets Swords dance+quick att right out of box.

And has decent stats and movepool.

As well as a ridiculous shadow ball+swords dance to wreck tate+liza and phoebe.

But, its rare and has a lower catch rate than Shuppet, who gets 105 att, and stab Shadow ball as a Bannette.

Drop to where, and rise Shuppet to where?

Blasphemy, Hoenn>4th gen and 5th gen combined!

And nothing you guys say will change it!

Carvahnas got 2 great stabs, and hits hard as fuck.

Also, it comes at a nice time, and is a very good mixed sweeper.

Maril has early use, and flannery.

But it has low sp att.

Edited February 6, 2012 by The Creeper

[Ciarre]

I think Sableye needs to rise a bit. He makes the entirety of Brawly's gym a complete joke. He should be at the top of low, because you don't even get Bagon until way later and have fun training that thing up to a Salamence, Slugma/Macargo is slow and is utterly raped by both ground and water, and Duskull is yet another ghost type but comes when you don't really need him. Defensively good, sure, but he can't roflstomp an entire gym like Sableye can.

[Shadow Mir]

Geodude learns magnitude, early, and helps with watson/flannery.

...And just as suddenly, its period of being good is over. Also, Magnitude's unreliable.

Whismur has a wide movepool and decent offensive stats.

But I don't see that as nearly enough to justify it being over frigging Skarmory.

In essence, I agree with grandjackal that this list is so flawed, I don't even know where to start pecking away...

Edited February 6, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[grandjackal]

Grovyle gets stab leaf blade.

Runs off high sp attack.

It's not THAT high, and you forget again that Grass is a god awful offensive element. Tell me one time where he's actually good outside of the ocean parts.

Geodude learns magnitude, early, and helps with watson/flannery.

Both of these gym leaders and him helping are straight lies, of which I will explain mainly due to wo problems Geodude has.

1. He is notably slower than just about everything. This is mostly a problem with Wattson because every mon he tends to throw out first has Sonic Boom, and he will spam that garbage till Geodude is dead, which is not hard considering you're not super high level against him.

2. Crap special defense, something that is a problem with Flannery due to again Geodude's awful speed. Fire he may resist, but he'll still take notable damage. Not to mention there are plenty of Numels around there, and they got Magnitude of which Geodude is weak to as well. Solrock does not face this problem because he has Levitate. Did I mention that Solrock has speed and does not have double weakness to water and grass (of which due to some fire type attacks he could at least fight bck against the grass types somewhat)?

Sure he's not there for Wattson, but he makes up for it by not sucking. I wouldn't even bother with Geodude against Wattson anyways.

Whismur has a wide movepool and decent offensive stats.

Both of which are hampered by his meh Normal typing and the fact he levels slowly.

Zangoose has swords dance+any other physical move that's stab/high power. And is good asap as you get it.

Why do we need to set up in this game? We're not playing PvP here. At best it's a nice perk.

Absol gets Swords dance+quick att right out of box.

This does not impress me in the slightest. Needing to set up for a priority move is something so dumb it stuns me. Why do I need to bother with this?

And has decent stats and movepool.

A bald faced lie if I've ever heard one. It has an attack stat and that's pretty much it (and it's typing screws that over too). It's meh everywhere else.

As well as a ridiculous shadow ball+swords dance to wreck tate+liza and phoebe.

I'd imagine it'd get wrecked due to being frail by the time it manages that.

But, its rare and has a lower catch rate than Shuppet, who gets 105 att, and stab Shadow ball as a Bannette.

Drop to where, and rise Shuppet to where?

I feel Absol should be in Low whle Shuppet should be somewhere..hmm..I'd say as close to dead middle as one could manage.

Blasphemy, Hoenn>4th gen and 5th gen combined!

*shoryuken*

Carvahnas got 2 great stabs, and hits hard as fuck.

Also, it comes at a nice time, and is a very good mixed sweeper.

Again, this isn't a PvP, judge it by the facts of ingame. It comes instantly with stab surf which is automatically good no matter what, quite nice speed and dark giving it an immunity along with the fact it gets the equally good Crunch as well. The psychic twins gym he basically swims through, and the troublesome duo use a bunch of psychic types that are also unfortunately also ground or rock types so Surf messes them up royally thanks to the fact they're dumb enough to double team you. Then of course, Phoebe.

Dies fast, but that's like it's only issue. Other than finding a good physical element attack to benefit off it's huge attack stat.

Maril has early use, and flannery.

But it has low sp att.

It also sucks on toast. Being a water type doesn't make you automatically good against elements you should be good against if you just suck, Marill being just that. Quite sure you only get Surf ater beating Norman and visiting Wally's folks again, so I don't believe that can be used as an excuse.

[dondon151]

1. He is notably slower than just about everything. This is mostly a problem with Wattson because every mon he tends to throw out first has Sonic Boom, and he will spam that garbage till Geodude is dead, which is not hard considering you're not super high level against him.

Magnitude is, like, 1-2HKO on Wattson's Pokemon... You must be clinically retarded if you don't think that Geodude makes this gym battle a joke. It's so much harder with any other Pokemon (except for Marshtomp) due to either not resisting Shock Wave or having poor coverage against steel types' good resistances.

2. Crap special defense, something that is a problem with Flannery due to again Geodude's awful speed. Fire he may resist, but he'll still take notable damage. Not to mention there are plenty of Numels around there, and they got Magnitude of which Geodude is weak to as well. Solrock does not face this problem because he has Levitate. Did I mention that Solrock has speed and does not have double weakness to water and grass (of which due to some fire type attacks he could at least fight bck against the grass types somewhat)?

Graveler ties base spd with Numel, is faster than Torkoal, and has no problems with taking a Magnitude and returning several times the damage with his own Magnitude. Throw in Selfdestruct as well.

The arguments in this thread are mind-numbingly stupid.

Edited February 7, 2012 by dondon151

[X-Naut]

After looking over the tier list, I have a few thoughts...

1. Vulpix should be lower. All it gets is Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Will-O-Wisp, and Confuse Ray. Between coming late and its mediocre Sp. Atk, I don't see how that alone warrants Upper Mid. Not to mention its STAB sucks for the last few Gyms it's available...

2. What makes Seedot belong in Mid tier? It doesn't have much to keep it out of Low or lower...

3. I think Torkoal's a bit too low. It has great stats as soon as you get it and learns Body Slam, Protect, and Flamethrower all by Level 30. He's a great answer to Flannery, Norman (especially RS Norman), Winona, and Steven. Sure it's slow as fuck, but its Defense is very good, and its only special weakness is Water. It has the same late-game Gym issues as Vulpix, but comes much earlier where Fire-typing is actually useful.

4. Zigzagoon needs to High or better. It doesn't even need to be a combatant to be useful: it takes care of half your HMs and has Pickup (especially good in RS) to bring you an occasional item. Stick two or three in the party when grinding and watch your pockets fill.

[MacLovin]

After looking over the tier list, I have a few thoughts...

1. Vulpix should be lower. All it gets is Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Will-O-Wisp, and Confuse Ray. Between coming late and its mediocre Sp. Atk, I don't see how that alone warrants Upper Mid. Not to mention its STAB sucks for the last few Gyms it's available...

It has good sp defense, can use roar+will o wisp/toxic combo, and can use stab F-thrower and maybe HP special.

2. What makes Seedot belong in Mid tier? It doesn't have much to keep it out of Low or lower...

Availibility, good offensive stats, and wide movepool, except for having a powerful grass STAb not named solarbeam/giga drain

3. I think Torkoal's a bit too low. It has great stats as soon as you get it and learns Body Slam, Protect, and Flamethrower all by Level 30. He's a great answer to Flannery, Norman (especially RS Norman), Winona, and Steven. Sure it's slow as fuck, but its Defense is very good, and its only special weakness is Water. It has the same late-game Gym issues as Vulpix, but comes much earlier where Fire-typing is actually useful.

Torkoal is slow as fuck.

lategame has a million water types.

EQ, Rock tomb, and maybe Sludge bomb have competition

Especially EQ.

4. Zigzagoon needs to High or better. It doesn't even need to be a combatant to be useful: it takes care of half your HMs and has Pickup (especially good in RS) to bring you an occasional item. Stick two or three in the party when grinding and watch your pockets fill.

Well.

IDK about Zigzagoon.

[General Horace]

Ralts is still too high, it's offence is fucking terrible until level 26 or 28 or whenever it learns Psychic, and Gardevoir is just a slower, more bulky Kadabra. Ralts even is unimpressive against Brawly, thanks to it's terrible offensive and defensive stats, even with type advantage factored in. It's completely useless against Wattson, Flannery, and Norman, you have better options against Winona and the twins. I don't what the last gym leader uses in Emerald (i've only played Sapphire), but if he's anything like Wallace, Gardevoir is actually pretty decent with it's high sp.def and access to thunderbolt.

Also, what's Voltorb doing in lower mid? It comes at a reasonably high level, evolves quickly, and has access to that thunderbolt TM you just received. He's also great against Winona (except for Altaria), but it's not like fellow electric Magneton is doing any wonders there either. Also, it's really fucking fast, and even with it's average Sp. Atk, a STAB thunderbolt hurts a lot, and there are like, no ground pokemon in this game at this point.

Edited February 7, 2012 by General Horace

[MacLovin]

Where's Sho?

Also, Ralts comes early, can be babied until lvl 6, and as a Gardevoir, wrecks later mid-late game with Calm Mind+Tbolt.

But, that period of babying can produce a decent pokemon that has the entire game to grow.

Unlike Bagon, who comes whoa late, takes forever to evolve, and hits final form at lvl 50.

And, outside of dragon claw, uses contested TMs, like EQ, AA and Flame thrower.

Voltorb can't take a hit, but should rise.....

Magneton has a nice typing, and wrecks the ocean.

110 sp attack!

But shallow movepool.

Also, if a pokemon comes early, needs babying to become good, and is good later on, isn't that > bagon/trapinch?

[General Horace]

I find Voltorb is better than Magneton on the ocean because it can kill stuff before it gets hit. Sure, Magneton isn't going to die or anything, but it's still annoying getting outsped by stuff like Wingull. And really, when will Electrode need to take a hit? It OHKO's the stuff it should be fighting with thunderbolt, and the bulkier waters aren't really much of a threat to it anyway, it's Sp.Def isn't bad enough that it's getting OHKO'd. Why bother with Calm Mind + Thunderbolt when Gardevoir (or Kadabra) OHKO with Psychic anyway.

Honestly, the only use for stat up moves is maybe on gym leaders. Also, don't you get Bagon like, after the 8th gym or something ridiculous like that? Why is it an option? It's kind of like Nino in FE7.

Also, the period of babying Ralts from level 4 to level 30, you could have a Kadabra who only needs 5 levels and is instantly awesome once it evolves.

And don't kid yourself, Ralts or Kirlia are nowhere what anybody should call decent.

[Shadow Mir]

I still think Lotad can stand to drop. Other than against Roxanne, its offense is terrible early on, and doesn't get anywhere near decent for a long time.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[MacLovin]

Lotad-drop where.

Ralts is like Nino joining in ch12 with Rebeccas bases.

Voltorb-rise to where.

Geodude-drop where

Aron-drop where

Makuhita-rise where

Ralts-drop to upper mid?

I think Staryu needs to drop.

Numel-drop where

Sableye-rise where?

[Shadow Mir]

I'd say...

Lotad can go down to Low.

Makuhita shouldn't be rising; in fact, I think it, too, can drop. Besides, what's it doing in High anyway??

Geodude and Numel can go somewhere in Lower mid.

Sableye should at least be the top of Low or bottom of Lower Mid.

Can't really say on Aron or Voltorb.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[MacLovin]

Makuhita hits hard, is fairly durable, has stab fighting, has 2 good abilities, Makuhita with guts activated, does rape-and Flannery loves will o wisp.

Also, there are a bunch or rock/normal types early on, the bike bridge has steels, and there are plenty of random trainers with dark types.

Oh, and high HP subs ftw.

I'm not convinced that it should drop, I think it should Rise.

I'm on a phone, and its hard to edit stuff.

Also, Luvdisk rising?

It has spd/sp attack, and can rape Drake, and lovely kiss is a good staller.

Also, recover.

Sableye could rise a bit, but Low seems a bit too low.

Lotad isn't that bad IMO

But, I guess it could drop somewhere.

Numel and Geodude will drop, good offense, but are slow and weak to ocean trainers.

Not fun, really not fun.

Aron may drop with Numel and Geodude.

Spheal and Chinchou could rise, but, I can't put my finger on it.

Also, Voltorb can rise, but how about Electrike-who is superior to it in every way but speed.

And has Tbolt+bite for type coverage.

Whismur drop to where?

Anyone have any thoughts on Slakoth rising?

Or Heracross/Pinser rising?

[Titamon]

I didn't realize Hoenn had that many Pokemon

But anyways...

I don't really think Mudkip is really that much better than Torchic that he deserves a tier to himself...

And Aron > Geodude? Aron's movepool is fairly lacking and he evolves very late. Geodude evolves earlier and has a better movepool. I could easily see him being better than Aron.

Electrike and Voltorb should move up as well.

And I c/s with those who said Ralts should drop

[MacLovin]

Mudkip has good stats, movepool, stab and beats the shit out of just every gym.

Torchic can't take many hits, and isn't much faster than Mudkip.

Oh, and 4 gyms kinda have the advantage over it.

5, If you don't have it evolved for Roxxane.

Maybe 6, if Flannery and her Camerupts mag. Counts.

And then, Steven makes it miserable with EQ and stuff.

Wallace and Juan make it hard, unless you go adamant and spam sky uppercut.

So, it is powerful, but not>mudkip.

Nothing is > Mudkip.

[Shadow Mir]

Makuhita hits hard, is fairly durable, has stab fighting, has 2 good abilities, Makuhita with guts activated, does rape-and Flannery loves will o wisp.

Also, there are a bunch or rock/normal types early on, the bike bridge has steels, and there are plenty of random trainers with dark types.

Oh, and high HP subs ftw.

I'm not convinced that it should drop, I think it should Rise.

I'm on a phone, and its hard to edit stuff.

Also, Luvdisk rising?

It has spd/sp attack, and can rape Drake, and lovely kiss is a good staller.

Also, recover.

Sableye could rise a bit, but Low seems a bit too low.

Lotad isn't that bad IMO

But, I guess it could drop somewhere.

Numel and Geodude will drop, good offense, but are slow and weak to ocean trainers.

Not fun, really not fun.

Aron may drop with Numel and Geodude.

Spheal and Chinchou could rise, but, I can't put my finger on it.

Also, Voltorb can rise, but how about Electrike-who is superior to it in every way but speed.

And has Tbolt+bite for type coverage.

Whismur drop to where?

Anyone have any thoughts on Slakoth rising?

Or Heracross/Pinser rising?

There's the fact that it's sloooow, and aside from its high attack and HP, its other stats are lackluster. Also, Flannery doesn't use Will-O-Wisp. And since 75% of Makuhita are male... Have fun dealing with Attract (her Torkoal and Camerupt know it).

Rock and normal types aren't exactly hard to dispose of, and Steels are rare.

Well, on the other hand, I'm not convinced Makuhita deserves its current position. Heck, I think it's too high.

Luvdisc... rising? Don't kid yourself. 45 sp. atk isn't going to do much of anything.

I think Sableye could go up to Lower Mid (though I'm not sure exactly where).

I'm not seeing how Lotad "isn't that bad", really. It can't train on the many normal types early on thanks to lolastonish, and it just doesn't learn any decent moves for a while...

Edited February 7, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[MacLovin]

Lotad, Roxanne, Geodude trainers, maril trainers, seashore house.

Bullet seed.

Unless you're using Shroomish/Treecko.

Seedot is mediocre, Oddish is meh, and lol at seriously using any other grass type in Hoenn.

Also.

Zigzagoon needs to rise.

HM slave is already good.

And, having decent combat, along with access to-

Pin Missle.-late psychics, and random dark/grass types

Return/body slam/slash

Shadow ball

Quick attack

BB/AA

IDK what else, but it needs to rise.

[Shadow Mir]

Lotad, Roxanne, Geodude trainers, maril trainers, seashore house.

Bullet seed.

Unless you're using Shroomish/Treecko.

Seedot is mediocre, Oddish is meh, and lol at seriously using any other grass type in Hoenn.

Also.

Zigzagoon needs to rise.

HM slave is already good.

And, having decent combat, along with access to-

Pin Missle.-late psychics, and random dark/grass types

Return/body slam/slash

Shadow ball

Quick attack

BB/AA

IDK what else, but it needs to rise.

Just how common are trainers with Marill?

10 BP a hit. That's not exactly impressive.

On Zigzagoon: lolpinmissile. What more needs to be said? (I actually think the other moves are good options, but delaying evolution just to learn a crappy Bug-type move isn't worth it.)

[Titamon]

Mudkip has good stats, movepool, stab and beats the shit out of just every gym.

Torchic can't take many hits, and isn't much faster than Mudkip.

Oh, and 4 gyms kinda have the advantage over it.

5, If you don't have it evolved for Roxxane.

Maybe 6, if Flannery and her Camerupts mag. Counts.

And then, Steven makes it miserable with EQ and stuff.

Wallace and Juan make it hard, unless you go adamant and spam sky uppercut.

So, it is powerful, but not>mudkip.

Nothing is > Mudkip.

My post wasn't to say Torchic > Mudkip, I was just stating a there isn't a tier difference between them, but your recent post has just convinced me otherwise.

Oh and Blaziken thoroughly destroys Steven, the only guys he may have a problem with is Metagross and Cradily.

[Shadow Mir]

Oh and Blaziken thoroughly destroys Steven, the only guys he may have a problem with is Metagross and Cradily.

*points to Claydol* That's half Steven's team that gives Blaziken trouble. And there's the fact that Armaldo's part Bug, meaning Blaziken's STABs are both neutral on it. In addition, Swampert also does a number on Steven.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[MacLovin]

How many of Stevens team members pack EQ, rock slide/tomb/Ancientpower.

Armaldo packs water pulse.

Cradilly is a bitch

Metagross is bulky, and takes awhile to kill.

Swamperts only prob is Cradilly.

Now, imagine that Cradilly with recover ....

Zigzagoon doesn't need to learn it, but it is a mediocre option-that could be considered.