Titamon Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Ok, but Caterpies one problem is durability. But hell, its a support mon with psychic attacks. Mid of upper mid. Butterfree: 60/50/80 Wartortle: 59/80/80 Considering Wartorle is the bulkiest starter and doesn't evolve until level 36, Butterfree isn't that bad in terms of durability. Also, Butterfree has better special attack than Wartortle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I personally don't see the point of training a Butterfree long-term. Its offence stays bad with no decent STAB for a long time (until that really late Silver Wind, and it's weak and obsolete when you do get it). Confusion is nice early on for all those Machops and poisons, but as the rest of your team grows, you'll find that Butterfree only has the powders and everybody else does the attacking better. Wartortle, on the other hand, gets Water Pulse from Misty, has a versatile learnset (mainly from TMs, but he's a great candidate for them) and can solo the game. Can Butterfree solo the game? There you go. Not a fair comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titamon Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Perhaps I should do a Butterfree solo then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) ok, this was a bad idea. Edited March 8, 2012 by The Insane One Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Cubone is really average. It comes low-levelled when you can first see it after getting the Silph Scope, and its typing being pure ground is actually kinda bad for this game. You can't hit the Koffing and Gastly families with your attacks anymore and those are problematic enemies to deal with. Bone Club, the one thing that makes Cubone special, is so rare that you might as well beat the whole game in the time spent farming it (even with save states and a Pokemon with the Thief TM, which says something to say the least). Without it, Marowak doesn't stand out at all, with average offence and poor speed. Sure, it's bulky, but you're better off using Graveler and Sandslash, or Dugtrio who comes at such a high level, for their better availability and offensive potential. By the way, can you skip the ghost Marowak in this version of RBY? If that's the case, we have a "Cubone doesn't exist" argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 no, we can't also, its not moving, you made your point. What about Clefairy rising, anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Evolves very early with a Moon Stone and boasts really high bases for that point. Can learn Mega Punch to have a nice STAB, though its physical attack is nothing to write home about. Can take on Misty's Starmie with the help of Sing/Encore (let it do something useless and force it to repeat it), which is desirable if your starter isn't Wartortle or Ivysaur. Its special learnset is diverse giving it great coverage, and it does have a nice special attack stat, plus Calm Mind access which gives it setup options. However, it's kinda slow. I would say it's deserving of High tier anyway, somewhere above Mankey perhaps, since being fighting-type isn't a huge advantage in this game unless you're beating up normal-type mooks (which anyone can do without super-effective damage really). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Evolves very early with a Moon Stone and boasts really high bases for that point. Can learn Mega Punch to have a nice STAB, though its physical attack is nothing to write home about. Can take on Misty's Starmie with the help of Sing/Encore (let it do something useless and force it to repeat it), which is desirable if your starter isn't Wartortle or Ivysaur. Its special learnset is diverse giving it great coverage, and it does have a nice special attack stat, plus Calm Mind access which gives it setup options. However, it's kinda slow. I would say it's deserving of High tier anyway, somewhere above Mankey perhaps, since being fighting-type isn't a huge advantage in this game unless you're beating up normal-type mooks (which anyone can do without super-effective damage really). Also, Boltbeam, meteor mash, and softboiled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Meteor Mash is learnt at lv. 45 in the event you don't evolve, which is a really stupid stunt to pull off. Softboiled doesn't sound bad except items are more effective and you should have enough money to afford them. I'd rather have Calm Mind and more attacks for coverage. But yeah, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam access makes it good, because these two types not only hit everything for at least neutral damage besides Magnemites, but they also happen to hit a lot of stuff effectively, penetrating some key 4x weaknesses too. Psychic, ice and electric are probably the best types in FR/LG, with Ground losing its position due to all the Levitate Pokemon out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Meteor Mash is learnt at lv. 45 in the event you don't evolve, which is a really stupid stunt to pull off. Softboiled doesn't sound bad except items are more effective and you should have enough money to afford them. I'd rather have Calm Mind and more attacks for coverage. But yeah, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam access makes it good, because these two types not only hit everything for at least neutral damage besides Magnemites, but they also happen to hit a lot of stuff effectively, penetrating some key 4x weaknesses too. Psychic, ice and electric are probably the best types in FR/LG, with Ground losing its position due to all the Levitate Pokemon out there. Actually, the only worthwhile levitate mon is the gastly line. Maybe Koffing, but low sp def vs the amount of e4 mons that have good sp att is derp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I personally don't see the point of training a Butterfree long-term. Its offence stays bad with no decent STAB for a long time (until that really late Silver Wind, and it's weak and obsolete when you do get it). Confusion is nice early on for all those Machops and poisons, but as the rest of your team grows, you'll find that Butterfree only has the powders and everybody else does the attacking better. Wartortle, on the other hand, gets Water Pulse from Misty, has a versatile learnset (mainly from TMs, but he's a great candidate for them) and can solo the game. Can Butterfree solo the game? There you go. Not a fair comparison. Thank you for figuring out that Butterfree is not the best pokemon in the game. How about Butterfree versus Golbat? Golbat is limited to Wing Attack for a good long while, which, while stronger than Psybeam (90 attack versus 65 attack) has inferior coverage. Statistically, they're both pretty meh. And Butterfree has options that are stronger than Psybeam such as Psychic, Dream Eater, and Shadow Ball, plus all those nifty status moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 Shadow balls a physical move, Dream eater is kinda gimmicky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I was questioning the one statement that argued that Butterfree has good durability because its relevant base stats are comparable to a starter Pokemon's 2nd tier form. You don't see anyone hyping up Onix because he has far more physical durability than Mankey, and that in itself would be a valid argument. Anyway, I don't see why Butterfree wouldn't rise over Tangela or Golbat because those two are pretty bad. Having a powerful Psychic move in Psybeam (and if you're not training anything else that would probably put it to better use, the actual Psychic TM in Saffron) is more rewarding than anything Tangela and Golbat offer. Tangela requires Surf access and is either underlevelled when you catch it, or comes without Sleep Powder if you catch a higher levelled one. Erika's Giga Drain is its only real option for offence and it's easy to tell how long that one will last. Golbat has to endure a bit of tedium before it learns Wing Attack a little before it evolves from Zubat, and that amount of tedium is compared and I would say even surpasses that which is needed to raise a Caterpie, so there's absolutely nothing that makes Golbat superior to a Butterfree either. If it could learn Sludge bomb and evolve into Crobat like in the previous generation, then maybe they'd be about even. If we talk about status move usage, Butterfree is faster than Tangela and has an accurate sleeping move while Zubat is stuck with an inaccurate confusing move (55% accurate Supersonic is just bad) and weak flinching. Butterfree's no spectacular Pokemon but yeah, Psychic move access alone makes it better than those other two you brought up, I've no doubt about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 Ok, Caterpie to...top of upper mid? Also, last page, someone made a point about surf+IB being excellent coverage for kanto. So, any water with decent sp attack can go up, I guess. Psyduck In addition to S+IB, BB, AA, and Dig. Slowpoke In addition to s+IB, it has acess to Shadow ball, Flamethrower/fire blast, dig, BB and psychic Seel Signal beam Cloyster ....IDK anything about this Lapras Body slam, Psychic, TB. Vaporeon Bite...acid armour...ummm.... Tentacool SB, Giga drain, barrier, confuse ray. Poliwrath- Bulk up/belly drum, BB, EQ, Rock Slide, hydro pump..... What else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Dewgong and Tentacruel have pretty poor special attack bases. Dewgong's Ice Beam receiving STAB is nice, though, but it's also kinda slow. Lapras comes at such a low level, that it is inefficient to train it. Slowbro is one of the slowest Pokemon you could possibly train, and we should take that into account and not only its diverse movepool. It's good for facing other Psychics though, regardless of whether it gets Shadow Ball or not (I believe Surf will hit harder). Cloyster does have good bulk and gets dual STABs, and its speed actually isn't that bad. Once you get a Super Rod, you can fish a Shellder out at lv. 25. I don't see how Golduck benefits from Aerial Ace and Dig, but it gets Psychic and Calm Mind. Add that to the usual water-type Surf/Ice Beam combo, and with its high speed it has setup-and-sweep capabilities. Consider moving it up much higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) Dewgong and Tentacruel have pretty poor special attack bases. Dewgong's Ice Beam receiving STAB is nice, though, but it's also kinda slow. Lapras comes at such a low level, that it is inefficient to train it. Slowbro is one of the slowest Pokemon you could possibly train, and we should take that into account and not only its diverse movepool. It's good for facing other Psychics though, regardless of whether it gets Shadow Ball or not (I believe Surf will hit harder). Cloyster does have good bulk and gets dual STABs, and its speed actually isn't that bad. Once you get a Super Rod, you can fish a Shellder out at lv. 25. I don't see how Golduck benefits from Aerial Ace and Dig, but it gets Psychic and Calm Mind. Add that to the usual water-type Surf/Ice Beam combo, and with its high speed it has setup-and-sweep capabilities. Consider moving it up much higher. 1- 80-100 isn't bad, its merely averageish 2-Slowbro, like SNorlax-can take a crapton of hits. 3-Cloyster has shit sp def 4-Golduck has like 85-90 base att and screech. It only gets Psychic through breeding. Also, Cloyster has awesome def, but shit sp def and lowish HP. And, the e4 likes Rock and Fighting moves. Slowbro, has nice def/sp def/hp, and can CM+IB/Surf/Psychic/Flamethrower+Shadow Ball/EQ the e4 while sustaining a lot of damage. Edited March 9, 2012 by The Insane One Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiley Jim Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) I don't see how Golduck benefits from Aerial Ace and Dig, but it gets Psychic and Calm Mind. Add that to the usual water-type Surf/Ice Beam combo, and with its high speed it has setup-and-sweep capabilities. Consider moving it up much higher. Uh, Golduck cannot use TM29. The only way to get Psychic in its moveset is through breeding(Slowpoke family), which cannot be done until you get the rainbow pass(since the breeding center is on Floe Island), which neccessitates not only beating the Elite Four, but also catching or evolving 60 species of Pokemon and visiting the first three Sevii Islands(Knot, Boon, and Kin Islands)during the Bill sidequest. Even if the breeding center WASN'T on Floe Island, you'd still have the problem of having to obtain a male Slowpoke with Psychic first(Slowpoke learns Psychic at the high level of 40, Slowbro gets it at Lv44. You COULD use the TM29, but that's better used on things that don't learn it naturally or those at unreasonable levels for ingame runs.), waiting a while before your Psyduck egg shows up AND hatches(Psyduck takes 5120 steps to hatch), then having to grind a Lv5 hatchling 40 levels. Edited March 9, 2012 by darkandroid125 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Yeah, I'm not going to argue Psychic is a reasonable option anymore, thanks for correcting me there. I wonder why I was so sure Golduck always had access to Psychic? Are there any more instances of Pokemon who can learn moves by breeding but can't learn the same moves via TM? Excluding learnset changes with new generations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiley Jim Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Yeah, I'm not going to argue Psychic is a reasonable option anymore, thanks for correcting me there. I wonder why I was so sure Golduck always had access to Psychic? Are there any more instances of Pokemon who can learn moves by breeding but can't learn the same moves via TM? Excluding learnset changes with new generations. As far as I know, no. well, Ok, there's things like Pokes getting screens through breeding that they don't get through TM, but I don't give two shits about setting up anything that isn't going to help me kill shit faster ingame. As far as offensive attacks go, other than the Psyduck dealie, no Pokemon learns a TM move through breeding that they can't get through the TM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 I'm thinking Electabuzz up, it comes same time as Zapdos, and has a better tm movepool. Along with naturally learned TB. I'd think to put it above magnemite at least....anyone have any input on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sakusa Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) I don't really wanna say it's above Magnemite. Steel has a bunch of awesome resists, namely Psychic/Dragon/Ghost and immunity to Poison, and Magneton hits harder, though at the cost of speed. Another problem with Magneton is the need for a Thunderbolt TM, which Electabuzz can learn naturally, albeit at a high level, so I dunno. :< Edited March 12, 2012 by Sakusa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venusaur Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I'm thinking Electabuzz up, it comes same time as Zapdos, and has a better tm movepool. Along with naturally learned TB. I'd think to put it above magnemite at least....anyone have any input on this? Well, first of all it doesn't even exist in LeafGreen, a minor point, sure, but it's still something. Also, that natural Thunderbolt is at Lv. 47, so it might as well not even exist at all... Still, ThunderPunch is pretty good for a while. Magneton ends up being much more powerful, though, 120 vs 95 in SA... In summary, Electabuzz wins until Magnemite evolves, but loses afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Electabuzz's natural access to Thunderbolt is actually pretty important, as its bases are good right off the bat and Thunderpunch is better than what the other electrics, besides Pikachu, get. Electrode, Magnemite, Jolteon and even Zapdos all require a Thunderbolt TM to function well, and in this generation Surge gives you a Shock Wave TM instead, so you have to waste quite a lot of money buying coins in the casino to get a TM, and the same amount of money could be used for, say, Ice Beam or Shadow Ball, so catching Electabuzz is actually a very efficient choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 Yeah, good point, also, Zapdos has whirlwind (I think) I caught one with whirlwind once, but every other one didn't have it....must've been a glitch or something. Electabuzz up soon, anything else folks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aere Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Why is NidoF below the other two starters? It's pretty much on par with NidoM, what does one KO the other cannot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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