• Announcements

    • Tangerine

      Serenes Forest Scribbles 2016 has begun, Raffle prizes have been updated!   12/03/16

      Hey everyone! We've started up our Creative event once more, you can check out the thread here:

      http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=67567

      If you're new here, it's an event where people can submit something they've created for the chance to have some fun and win some prizes. If you've got a talent you'd like to share with the FE community, there's no harm in giving it a go!
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Progenitus

Masteries should have been unique skills instead of "lol OHKO"

84 posts in this topic

They're mastery skills; wouldn't anything less than an OHKO be rather underwhelming to the name?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Black★Rock Shooter' date='05 March 2012 - 11:39 PM' timestamp='1330990778' post='1879257']They're mastery skills; wouldn't anything less than an OHKO be rather underwhelming to the name?[/quote]

Which is why Bane sucks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='shadowofchaos' date='05 March 2012 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1330989425' post='1879204']
... err what?

Masteries ARE broken.

Though, I love the bit about:


> Lethality

IS Staff: It's too broken!

> Change to "Leaves them at 1HP".

:O
[/quote]


Isn't that Mercy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree that having skills that could be useful without being basically super-crits would have been very nice. Actually unique skills > kekekekcrit > wastes (FE9). Wouldn't be terribly hard to do anyways. I don't know why, but game developers seem to forget that there are 'active' abilities which can open up a LOT of potential. Abilities that have costs (lower one stat to raise another), or can be REALLY powerful in some situations but REALLY weak in others (An ability that causes automatic damage to any enemy who passes through a square would be powerful on a defend map, but aweful on rout), or being powerful but having a usage limit (auto-critical, can only activate X times per map).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Othin' date='05 March 2012 - 10:33 PM' timestamp='1330986834' post='1879081']
Well in that case we now know precisely nothing of any value that we didn't know before you posted. Congratulations?
[/quote]
Typical whase post, then.

[quote name='shadowofchaos' date='05 March 2012 - 11:17 PM' timestamp='1330989425' post='1879204']
... err what?

Masteries ARE broken.
[/quote]
No, they're not. I rarely had to rely on Masteries in my playthrough: when I did, I had to do so in combination with Adept and then only on certain very high speed units like Hawks and Naesala who can't ORKO naturally. If anything is "broken", it's not Masteries letting you occasionally OHKO, it's characters like Caineghis or Tibarn who ORKO everything, all the time. Or in FE9's case, BEXP which lets you have ridiculous Paladins that mow the enemy down.

Did many characters in FE7 having ~20 crit on everything in lategame break the game? What about many characters in FE12 having 25 crit on everything? Or FE5 characters having 100 crit, easily, plus skills and movement stars? Or FE4 characters having skills out the bumhole?
[quote]
> Lethality

IS Staff: It's too broken!

> Change to "Leaves them at 1HP".

:O
[/quote]
I don't think that IS would have been worried about Sothe trivialising Endgame...

[quote name='Florina' date='05 March 2012 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1330983600' post='1878966']
I kinda wish they had Maelstrom (like in FE9) for Naesala as a mastery instead of Tear. Like he could totally use Wind magic! That was awwweeesome! Y U TAKE THAT AWAY RD? RD's Maelstrom sucked. I mean come on, Naesala isnt getting hit.
[/quote]
With his low magic, it's unlikely that FE10 Naesala would even be able to damage enemies with Vortex, let alone kill them. What's awesome about tinking enemies?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Anouleth' date='05 March 2012 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1330997263' post='1879434']
No, they're not. I rarely had to rely on Masteries in my playthrough: when I did, I had to do so in combination with Adept and then only on certain very high speed units like Hawks and Naesala who can't ORKO naturally. If anything is "broken", it's not Masteries letting you [u][b]occasionally[/b][/u] OHKO.
[/quote]

Point 1: Activation rate is unaffected by enemy's anything, unlike crit is affected by their luck.

Let's list them shall we?

Savage: Triples STRENGTH, not damage. The likeliness of someone surviving even if they were gonna do 0 damage originally is about as likely as Gatrie is to get married. Unlikely chance they survive? Status effect.
Rend: 5x STRENGTH. Again look at Savage's comment.
Roar: See Savage.
Ire: Another non affected crit. You're a dragon. This is just another critical. Now if you're a BLACK Dragon... yeah you can see this doing damage.
Aether: One of the crappiest Masteries, but it still does its job.
Astra: 5x Consecutively. Add a Brave Sword and how Trueblades are most likely doubling everything in sight and there you have it.
Impale: 4x Damage. Not broken, but not the worst either
Luna: 3x Damage AFTER your defense has been nulled to 0. With something like a Silver Lance, that's 39 damage WITH ZERO STRENGTH.
Eclipse: You're dead. Enough said.
Sol: Another critical, and you gain what you do. NOT that bad compared to strength multipliers.
Flare: Now THIS is one of the ones that I'd accept you saying isn't broken. Negates Res and gives you back health.
Corona: Same as Flare except no health gain. It'll almost always give them a crappy hit rate if they happen to survive.
Bane: Nerf'd Lethality. Works best with Adept.
Lethality: It's good... except it doesn't work on Bosses and Volke could probably kill them with a crit anyways.
Stun: Another critical
Deadeye: Deadeye... Deadeye again. Rinse. Repeat. They're asleep. They're already dead.
Colossus: See Savage, except without the status effect.
Tear: Do I even need to say anything? If you Tear, they're dead. If they happen to survive? You'll double them.

Example on Savage:

Volug Level 30: 29.5 Str Average when transformed. 88.5 damage - def.

Unless you're facing REALLY buffed def Disciples of Order "Pseudo-Marshalls"... they're dead.


Experiences:

Savage: I've seen FEW Disciples of Order Marshals survive this.
Rend: Never seen anyone survive this. Not even in Goldie's hack videos.
Roar: Lions/Tigers and THEIR Strength? You're not surviving.
Ire: Dheg wants you dead.
Aether: A few survived this... assuming they have full HP.
Astra: Ahahahahaha. I have to use a Bronze sword just to see the full animation
Impale: With a Silver weapon? I've seen someone survive it ONCE.
Luna: No one survives this.
Eclipse: You're kidding right?
Sol: One of the masteries that are lower on the list via mortality rate
Flare and Corona: Definitely one of the survivable ones
Bane: They always survive this unless they have an adept activate before it.
Lethality: Miracle. Only way. Or Nihil.
Stun: Another crit
Deadeye: They don't survive after being put to sleep. It's an unwritten rule.
Colossus: Gatrie on Goldie's hack videos has been the ONLY one I've seen survive this.
Tear: Same as the other strength multiplying skills.

Only ones I can accept that aren't broken:

Ire (It's another crit)
Aether (It got nerfed from the increased HP in enemies compared to FE9 and it's activation rate)
Sol (Again, another crit)
Flare and Corona (Negating Res isn't that much of a bonus to damage, unless you're target is Res heavy)
Bane (It's just silly)
Stun (Crit replacement)


"Occasionally" one hit KO eh? Majority of the skills listed there 99% of the time kill their target.

Also, depending on your biorhythm, you COULD also have a +10% activation rate regardless of your stats. Edited by shadowofchaos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Masteries are pretty hard to survive, from my experience. Most of the time, my characters just kill stuff if they ever activate a mastery. Exceptions being an archsage using Flare on a white dragon, if they don't activate Flare twice. And perhaps Corona. But for almost all of the other Masteries that I've seen ... enemy dead. (Unless I leave Mercy on Elincia.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The problem with FE9's masteries isn't that they didn't have strong enough effects, it's that they took skill capacity. If they took 0 capacity they'd be very useful.
And having to use an Occult scroll didn't help them either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='shadowofchaos' date='06 March 2012 - 01:51 AM' timestamp='1330998703' post='1879473']
Point 1: Activation rate is unaffected by enemy's anything, unlike crit is affected by their luck.
[/quote]
Enemies usually lack luck. Only in FE5, 6, 8, 9, and 10 have enemies had any luck stat at all, and FE5 enemy luck is usually negligible. FE8 luck is typically quite low, too. FE6 has +30 crit SM bonuses.
[quote]
"Occasionally" one hit KO eh? Majority of the skills listed there 99% of the time kill their target.
[/quote]
I mean that they "occasionally" OHKO in the sense that they only activate about ~30% of the time, which isn't outrageously higher than FE7 or FE11 crit rates and certainly lower than FE5.

[quote name='BwdYeti' date='06 March 2012 - 02:09 AM' timestamp='1330999783' post='1879513']
The problem with FE9's masteries isn't that they didn't have strong enough effects, it's that they took skill capacity. If they took 0 capacity they'd be very useful.
[/quote]
They wouldn't be very useful, given that FE9 enemies aren't so tough you really need fancy status effects to deal with them. Edited by Anouleth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote]They wouldn't be very useful, given that FE9 enemies aren't so tough you really need fancy status effects to deal with them.[/quote]

Actually, no. This is true. The biggest problem with FE9 masteries was the capacity cost. I mean, just look...

Aether: Broken. One of two good masteries.

Sol: Other good mastery.

Stun: Costs 20 points to leave a enemy unable to move for 2 turns. To make it worse it only has a SKL/2 chance of activation. Even if the enemies were gods among men, this is simply too unreliable to be used. At best your falcon knight has, like a 10-15% chance of stunning a 1-range enemy then runs away and lets ranged units pound them down. Had this cost 5/10 points it *might* have been worth it, but as-is you sacrifice your ability to use all other skills for something that might only activate once or twice per map on something outright useless and might not even survive long enough for that lack of movement to even matter.

Astra: You're paying 20 capacity for a version of Adept with lower activation rates, can potentially murder your forged silver sword/KE/VK/whatever's durability, and isn't even guaranteed to deal more damage than its cheaper counterpart.

Luna: While this might have been useful, it's on the general class, which is NOT known for having exceptional speed or high SKL. Even on the Hali's it's iffy and won't really help out too much unless you're fighting DEF loaded enemies. Not actually a bad skill, but not worth 20 points by far, especially since this means Nephenee needs to give up Wrath if she ever wants to use it (leaving Devdan as the only user of Luna).

Colossus: Because Warriors are known for lacking damage and having extra-ordinary high skill. Sarcasm aside, this is another one that could have been useful, but at 20 points... it's just not worth it in the end. Only a few non-bosses could survive two attacks anyways, so the value comes from jumping Boyd's damage up somewhere between 4-7 points (I am assuming this is after DEF... No one talks about Colossus).

Deadeye: Could have actually been useful if it wasn't on a sniper, but has the same problem as stun.

Lethality: Awesome... when it activates. Probably worth 10 points, but it requires Volke to be used who will suck when this skill doesn't activate. To make it worse it's a SKL/2 thing, making it even worse. Might have been worth 10, but certainly not 20 and deploying Volke.

Roar: One turn without movement. Actually not too bad... but unless you have a habit of using Lethe into the endgame and sticking her in a location surrounded by enemies it simply won't ever be in a spot where it can be used with even remote effectivness.

Cancel: Awesome. Doesn't exist unless you take Tibran.

Vortex: Kinda cool, but only exists if you take Naesala and even then it's only chip damage. Beats no damage, but is unlikely to do more than bother or maybe push a enemy into KO range who wasn't before. Certainly not worth 20 points.

Blessing: Pretty cool... if it wasn't on a Heron which is the least likely class to have player units standing around them at the start of the turn (since they will likely have been chanted and moved). Only 'worth it' on a heron because herons don't get into combat making most abilities useless to them.

Boon: Even assuming you had a dragon member with this from the beginning of the game and had 1 character per map get hit with a status effect, the simple odds of the two being next to each other at the start of the turn makes this something that wouldn't be used more than once or twice per game. Just NOT worth 20 points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Snowy_One' date='06 March 2012 - 11:31 AM' timestamp='1331051475' post='1880192']Cancel: Awesome. Doesn't exist unless you take Tibarn.
[/quote]Janaff and Ulki can use it too.

Of course, this brings up the issue of giving them an Occult scroll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Even if Masteries weren't automatic kills, third tier units are trained to the point where they should be one rounding well over half the map. I like the fact that they can auto kill enemies that otherwise would not be one rounded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='incognit0' date='06 March 2012 - 09:23 PM' timestamp='1331086986' post='1880851']
Even if Masteries weren't automatic kills, third tier units are trained to the point where they should be one rounding well over half the map. I like the fact that they can auto kill enemies that otherwise would not be one rounded.
[/quote]
In a game with serious balance issues, sure, that's all that matters. Edited by Othin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Othin' date='07 March 2012 - 02:29 AM' timestamp='1331087399' post='1880866']
In a game with serious balance issues, sure, that's all that matters.
[/quote]
All Fire Emblem games have serious balance issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Anouleth' date='07 March 2012 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1331158149' post='1881836']
All Fire Emblem games have serious balance issues.
[/quote]
And this is why I play Berwick Saga.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I once had something approaching a similar line of thought, and Othin's trample is kind of interesting. What I had in mind was more along the lines of skills the units would always have, though, but being masteries or abilities they get on promotion is an option I'm also ok with. Giving unit types really unique abilities sounds cool to me, in general. I guess the easiest things to think of for me are movement skills. Things that had already come to mind before (or maybe I even saw them somewhere else without realizing <_>) :

- Thieves getting something like the ability to try to vault a couple spaces over an enemy unit and getting an evade bonus against that unit on their phase (guessing this would have a roll dependent on speed/skill)

- Warriors, fighters etc being able to try to tackle/pin down an enemy so that friendly units can pass over them, maybe putting the warrior at a disadvantage to being attacked by other enemies on that phase (maybe dependent on strength/constitution/speed)

- Knights, armors etc having an ability where, if they used it before moving, they would end their phase immediately but, if an enemy unit tried to run past them on their phase, then they would automatically be attacked, and if hit, be pushed back in the direction they came from (stalwart/NONE SHALL PASS mode)

Thinking out loud; maybe soldiers could take a similar defensive stance with their shield, and just get a regular old defense/evade boost? Maybe this could make them a lot harder to trample, since pikes and halberds etc were used to great affect against horses (thank you, Age of Empires). Maybe myrmidons could try to disarm an enemy for a turn. Kind of harder to think of something for mages, but maybe they could do something along the lines of channeling their type of magic for different stat boosts? Fire = MT, wind = evade/accuracy, thunder = attack speed, light = resistance, something like that. And for archers, uh, maybe a bonkers crit boost ("headshot" or something)? Or maybe a special reaction where when they're attacked at 1 range, if they dodge they get 1 free movement while still on the enemy's turn. You get the idea


It could take a lot of extra effort to throw all this stuff in the same pot and make it balanced, though, and maybe some catches or limitations could be thrown in here and there. And I might want, just to be safe, the option to turn them all off. But then again, horses already have canto (in some games at least) so it would be nice to throw foot units unique stuff, I think.

I think think thunk Edited by Rehab

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trample wasn't my idea.

But I'd suggest that a lot of stuff along the lines of these could work quite well:

http://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Berwick_Saga_Skills

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ooo, some of those are pretty interesting, imo moreso than FE9 and FE10 skills. [s]I forget if I have a reason for not having played Berwick Saga yet[/s]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Rehab' date='07 March 2012 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1331176778' post='1882414']
Ooo, some of those are pretty interesting, imo moreso than FE9 and FE10 skills. [s]I forget if I have a reason for not having played Berwick Saga yet[/s]
[/quote]
No translation patch? Lack of ways to play it? (It's obnoxiously slow on older computers, to the point of being basically unplayable.) If neither of those are issues, I do suggest at least giving it a try.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
will there ever be a translation pack for the tear ring saga and berwick saga? ^^'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think people have pretty much translated TRS and started to work on a translation patch, but I haven't heard anything about it actually going anywhere.

Banzai and I have been working on translating Berwick Saga, but it's a slow process. And neither of us has the slightest idea of how to actually make such a patch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Perfect balance is a hard thing to accomplish in any game and can be done through a multitude of ways. For example, Paladins and mounted units in general ride a thin line in terms of balance. If their stats are even slightly above average they become powerful units due to their naturally high movement, but if their stats are just a hair too low they quickly become useless. Snipers require special control/weapons to be anything more than whimps. Even if a Sniper had 100 STR, they could still feasibly end up unbalanced due to a lack of counters. Balance is a difficult thing to handle at best. Even major companies fail at it frequently (Blacksmithing/Enchanting combo in Skyrim, the OP'edness of frictonless materials in ME, Natsu in SCV) and it takes a lot of work to be certain. Especially when you realize that it's not uncommon for something to appear balanced on paper/theory, but end up unbalanced once the game is actually released.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Perfect balance is also very very stupid. A game doesn't need to be perfectly balanced in order to avoid serious balance issues; that just limits its options too much. Edited by Othin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IS also gives every appearance of not caring about balance in their games. I'm not even sure if they should care. We can complain about "underpowered" characters like Marty or Fiona or Wendy, but these characters still have fans who enjoy using them in spite of the attention that they need. At the very least, IS seems to cotton on when people come across a completely game-breaking strategy, indicated by the removal of Warp from the very highest difficulties of FE12.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Balance should always be striven for even when the game is unbalanced. Just a different sort of balance than when you are trying to make a unbalanced game than when you are trying to make a balanced one. If you don't you will end up with a game where (in FE's case) there is a group of characters who can easily bash through the game and characters who simply suck so much that using them is a no-no by anyone who knows anything about them. If a game devolves into little more than making one choice over and over again because it is the only choice that is worth making any degree of pursuit towards then your game will become boring and stale. If you're looking for OP'ed characters creative skills become more important because the player will rarely be in actual danger and, if skills are the same, they will just see the maps as boring filler to sweep out between story segments; not actual challenges or levels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.