Rate the Unit: Sacred Stones Endgame

[Elieson]

? He quite explicitly says "I think they're better than 'other units' (read: everybody?)"

I read "other units" as "some other units", referring to units like, Syrene (for late availability), or Niemi/Marisa.

[Integrity]

I read "other units" as "some other units", referring to units like, Syrene (for late availability), or Niemi/Marisa.

Maybe, maybe not. S'pose he'll clarify.

[Cereal Bawks]

Uh, their growths are always the same unless you hacked. In which case it's not qualified to be talked about in a rating thread. I can hack all of Seth's growths to 255 and he would be EVEN MANLIER.

Amelia 60 35 40 40 50 30 15

Seth 90 50 45 45 25 40 30

Let's just look at Amelia vs Seth for a second. The ONLY growth she wins in is lolluck. And this is only taking into account growths, nevermind Seth also have spectacular bases and domination throughout the entire game. This is just growths alone.

If yer gonna talk about growths, check the damn data.

yay. Did I ever say she was better than Seth? No. Better than some other units? Yes.

Edited March 26, 2012 by AssassinRogue

[CT075]

yay. Did I ever say she was better than Seth? No. Better than some other units? Yes.

so please name these other units, hm?

Amelia 60 35 40 40 50 30 15

Franz 80 40 40 50 40 25 20

loses in everything except def (and it's fucking 5%) and luck

Gilliam 90 45 35 30 30 55 20

she beats him in skill by 5% (wow!), speed by 10% (okay) and loses in everything else important. you could *maybe* make a point for her > him but i doubt it

Ephraim 80 55 55 45 50 35 25

loses or ties spectacularly in everything

Forde 85 40 50 45 35 20 25

Kyle 90 50 40 40 20 25 20

beats them both in luck and... well maybe she can have pity points for her 5/10% defense (keep in mind that a 10% difference makes up for a grand total of +2 in the end)

Duessel 85 55 40 30 20 45 30

speed and luck. and the speed is still only 10%. mind you that it takes her to level 10/10 to match his BASE speed.

---

would you like me to come up with more?

[Thor Odinson]

yay. Did I ever say she was better than Seth? No. Better than some other units? Yes.

Actually their growths are much lower than even the average. The lowest growth total is Saleh, whose low growths is made up by having good bases and staffspam abilities. Ross and Amelia have 270 total, and Ewan 275, nevermind factoring in that some of their highest growth rates is luck, which is pretty useless in SS once you get more than like, 10 luck.

The average growth totals is ~301 not counting Myrrh's 580 outlier. that means Amelia and Ross are below the growth average by 31 points and Ewan by 26 points. Nevermind the other units in the 270-275 range have other utility to make up for it, such as Moulder's healing, Rennac desert items, Knoll autophantom, etc.

Their growths are among some of the worst in SS. If you are gonna argue trainees, don't argue growth rates.

I even did the math for you. How nice.

oh herp I just typed it into my lab data now moved to new file

Edited March 26, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[I don't play for turns]

I didn't become a member in time to rate these characters, so here's what I would've put, not including creature campaign characters.

Eirika: 5/10 (no bias)

Seth: 9.5/10 (9 + .5 bias for silver knight)

Franz: 8.5/10 (no bias)

Gilliam: 6.5/10 (6+.5 bias because I like his color scheme)

Moulder: 4/10 (no bias)

Vanessa: 5.5/10 (no bias)

Garcia: 5.5/10 (no bias)

Ross: 6.5/10 (6+.5 bias for trainee. That's why they made tower of valni.)

Neimi: 6/10 (6.5-.5 bias for crybaby)

Colm: 3/10 (no bias)

Lute: 7.5/10 (no bias)

Artur: 6.5/10 (no bias)

Natasha: 6/10 (no bias)

Joshua: 7/10 (6+1 bias because I like his character and backstory)

Ephraim: 9/10 (8.5+.5 bias for sprite)

Kyle: 8/10 (no bias)

Forde: 4/10 (4.5-.5 bias because Cain's aren't supposed to be blonde)

Tana: 6.5/10 (no bias)

Amelia: 4.5/10 (4+.5 bias for trainee)

Duessel: 4/10 (3+1 bias because he's just a boss)

Cormag: 9.5/10 (8.5+1 bias because everything about him is freakin awesome and he's my favorite character in this game)

L'Archel: 7.5/10 (no bias)

Dozla: 1.5/10 (2.5-1 bias because he's a moron)

Ewan: 7.5/10 (7+.5 for trainee)

Marisa: 3.5/10 (no bias, even though part of me wants to)

Tethys: 4/10 (no bias)

Gerik: 8.5/10 (8+.5 bias because I respect dudes with scars)

Rennac: 2.5/10 (2+.5 bias for putting up with L'Archel)

Innes: 3/10 (no bias)

Saleh: 3.5/10 (no bias)

Myrrh: 7.5/10 (no bias)

Syrene: 1/10 (1.5-.5 bias because she wears too much lipstick, which is unattractive)

Edit: I haven't played hard mode very often, so maybe I just got lucky. I only put this here because of the haters.

Edited April 22, 2012 by I don't play for turns

[Integrity]

Kyle: 8/10 (no bias)

Forde: 4/10 (4.5-.5 bias because Cain's aren't supposed to be blonde)

Amelia: 4.5/10 (4+.5 bias for trainee)

Ewan: 7.5/10 (7+.5 for trainee)

Tethys: 4/10 (no bias)

what the bloody fuck

How in God's name could you even justify Kyle 4 points over Forde?

[Ciarre]

what the bloody fuck

How in God's name could you even justify Kyle 4 points over Forde?

also check out myrrh saleh and innes

[Integrity]

also check out myrrh saleh and innes

no trust me I know I only picked out the very worst of those

EDIT: also check neimi

Edited April 22, 2012 by Integrity

[Toothache]

You know what's worse than people who post without knowing what they are saying? People who do know what they are saying responding to them. Until they prove their opinions are worth a damn, don't respond.

[Integrity]

You know what's worse than people who post without knowing what they are saying? People who do know what they are saying responding to them. Until they prove their opinions are worth a damn, don't respond.

How will they know their opinions aren't worth a damn unless somebody prompts them to justify them?

[I don't play for turns]

what the bloody fuck

How in God's name could you even justify Kyle 4 points over Forde?

If Forde could actually kill anyone with that piece of garbage he calls a strength stat, I might have rated him higher. Besides, it was only 3.5 points without bias. Kyle's speed and skill aren't that bad, and he actually has good defense and strenth, which is very rare in the gba games. i don't care about luck and resistance stats, and Kyle's HP just makes him an even better tank. So anyway, just shut up.

[Jaybee]

If Forde could actually kill anyone with that piece of garbage he calls a strength stat, I might have rated him higher. Besides, it was only 3.5 points without bias. Kyle's speed and skill aren't that bad, and he actually has good defense and strenth, which is very rare in the gba games. i don't care about luck and resistance stats, and Kyle's HP just makes him an even better tank. So anyway, just shut up.

No, you shut up.

Kyle beats Forde by 2 strength at base. Cool. Kyle's growth is 10% higher. Cool. Does that make Forde's strength 'garbage'? FUCK NO.

First things first, 3.5/10 on a score of 10 is still 35% of the score. This is also known as 'ridiculously huge'.

Kyle's Def compared to Forde's isn't even that great. Kyle has 1 higher base, +5% growth. Yes, I'm absolutely sure that's doing a huge amount for Kyle, isn't it? HP wise, it's the exact same thing. Neither of them are absolutely begging for Angelic Robes, and they're tanky enough to survive, provided you don't do something retarded like "hey cavs go fight that fucking deathgoyle in c11".

If anything, it's speed that kills Kyle the most. 16 speed is required to double the majority of enemies in FE8 (Barring bosses/SMs/Heroes/You know what I mean). Kyle needs to be, like, 15/11 to begin reliably doubling everything in sight. That's endgame level. Forde hits it at 15/7. That's way before endgame level.

In comparison, Forde's strength isn't exactly raping him to death. Kyle destroys him in Strength, admittedly, but it's not as though Forde is so crippled he can't even ORKO a little baby. Eirika's strength is kind of pathetic, but then again, do you see people rating Eirika 4/10? Nope, guess it's only an isolated idiot case!

Basically, yes, Forde ought to be lower ranked than Kyle. However, how in the blue hell can you even justify Forde having... half of Kyle's score, when in all honesty, they're differences aren't that great and they are good enough asskickers anyway?

also good defense and strength are not 'rare'

what the hell

[MacLovin]

If Forde could actually kill anyone with that piece of garbage he calls a strength stat, I might have rated him higher. Besides, it was only 3.5 points without bias. Kyle's speed and skill aren't that bad, and he actually has good defense and strenth, which is very rare in the gba games. i don't care about luck and resistance stats, and Kyle's HP just makes him an even better tank. So anyway, just shut up.

Forde's bases and growths are very, very similar to fe7s Kent.

Kent, in NO way is frail.

Also, low str can be fixed with stronger weapons, low spd is only fixed by spdwings(High competition stat booster) or perhaps a body ring(Rare, and giving them to mounts makes Mounts utility even more useless.

[Parrhesia]

I like how Duessel and Amelia got fours as well.

EDIT: Ewan got a seven.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Furetchen

[MacLovin]

I love how Tethys, Syrene and Saleh are under pieces of shit.

God, I like laughing

[I don't play for turns]

No, you shut up.

Kyle beats Forde by 2 strength at base. Cool. Kyle's growth is 10% higher. Cool. Does that make Forde's strength 'garbage'? FUCK NO.

First things first, 3.5/10 on a score of 10 is still 35% of the score. This is also known as 'ridiculously huge'.

Kyle's Def compared to Forde's isn't even that great. Kyle has 1 higher base, +5% growth. Yes, I'm absolutely sure that's doing a huge amount for Kyle, isn't it? HP wise, it's the exact same thing. Neither of them are absolutely begging for Angelic Robes, and they're tanky enough to survive, provided you don't do something retarded like "hey cavs go fight that fucking deathgoyle in c11".

If anything, it's speed that kills Kyle the most. 16 speed is required to double the majority of enemies in FE8 (Barring bosses/SMs/Heroes/You know what I mean). Kyle needs to be, like, 15/11 to begin reliably doubling everything in sight. That's endgame level. Forde hits it at 15/7. That's way before endgame level.

In comparison, Forde's strength isn't exactly raping him to death. Kyle destroys him in Strength, admittedly, but it's not as though Forde is so crippled he can't even ORKO a little baby. Eirika's strength is kind of pathetic, but then again, do you see people rating Eirika 4/10? Nope, guess it's only an isolated idiot case!

Basically, yes, Forde ought to be lower ranked than Kyle. However, how in the blue hell can you even justify Forde having... half of Kyle's score, when in all honesty, they're differences aren't that great and they are good enough asskickers anyway?

also good defense and strength are not 'rare'

what the hell

Maybe it's just that I've gotten bad luck with Forde every time I've played with him (not all have been on hard mode) , but he's never been able to ORKO anyone but thieves, soldiers, revenants, and characters that a character as awful as Syrene could one-round. My Forde might have gotten screwed in defense, but his HP hasn't been too bad. I just got bad luck with Forde if what you're saying is right. Also, my Kyle usually is able to one hit a lot of the enemies Forde can ORKO before promotion, and by 20/3 he can usually ORKO the majority of all enemies, not including most elder bael or cyclops. After looking at their stats, I probably have gotten lucky with Kyle in my hard mode run-through's, but my Forde has always been awful.

Forde's bases and growths are very, very similar to fe7s Kent.

Kent, in NO way is frail.

Also, low str can be fixed with stronger weapons, low spd is only fixed by spdwings(High competition stat booster) or perhaps a body ring(Rare, and giving them to mounts makes Mounts utility even more useless.

I never said Forde was frail. I only said he couldn't tank and Kyle could. Also, steel lances are too heavy, and the rest won't one-round except silver weapons until much later, and even they don't work on a good amount of enemies. I don't want to give him that many items that other characters could need. Also, my Kent has always been better than Forde was.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Sirius

[CT075]

for the love of god

check your fucking facts

they are almost IDENTICAL

and considering that fe8's enemies are worse than fe7's

gg research

[Integrity]

If Forde could actually kill anyone with that piece of garbage he calls a strength stat, I might have rated him higher. Besides, it was only 3.5 points without bias. Kyle's speed and skill aren't that bad, and he actually has good defense and strenth, which is very rare in the gba games. i don't care about luck and resistance stats, and Kyle's HP just makes him an even better tank. So anyway, just shut up.

At least you have the gall/stones to counter hostile with even more hostiler. That's nice, I guess.

Let's play a game. It's called "I don't care that JB and Cam have already been mean to you I want to be mean to you too even though I partially suspect you're a troll/an alt".

"that piece of garbage he calls a strength stat" is a 7 base +40% growth. That's Franz's parameters, to the letter, except he has fewer levels to make up for it. That makes him worse than Franz.

No shit. You know who else has shit Strength? Amelia. You rated her on a level with Forde even though her meaningful gains on him are sorry I lied she doesn't have any. At all. Wanna know what Neimi's STR parameters are? They're base 4 +45%. That means that she beats Forde by a whopping grand total of two points. At 20/20. Which she starts a very long far way from. You rated her a fair sight BETTER than Forde, though, because why?

Screw it, I'm taking this thing as a whole piece now. I'm done picking at the amazingly bad ones like Forde and Ewan. I'm gunning for the whole lot.

L'Arachel: 7.5/10. Let me lay one thing out for you: I love L'Arachel. It hurts me to condemn her. This is how far I'm willing to stoop for your amusement. Here are her meaningful leads on Natasha: wait fuck I did that lying thing again. Okay, not really, L'Arachel wins in one stat by a good margin: Skill. Congratulations. She also shows up six chapters later (that's almost a third of the game) and at level 3. Good. Does this mean I won't almost always use L'Arachel instead of Natasha? No, it doesn't. Does this mean L'Arachel is actually better than Natasha? (hint: the answer is also no.)

Saleh: 3.5 vice Ewan: 7.5. No, let's even be fair to you and drop your bias and call your Ewan as it is at 7. Here are Saleh and Ewan's respective stat pages. Do you notice how at Saleh's 20/20/1 he has almost the same stats as a 10/20/1 Ewan? For none of the effort? With a Staff Rank that Ewan doesn't have? Taken to he 20/20 conclusion, Ewan has a massive 4 points MAG and 2 points SPD win. That's a 12000 gold difference - you probably spend that much money on weapons, staves, and the Guiding Ring just to bring Ewan up to Saleh's base parameters. Nicely done! Do you see how Ewan > Saleh is absolutely inconceivable?

(here's a quick hint before you bring up the subjective defense: i didn't tell you not to like ewan. read closer.)

What else do I want to do today? Ooh, I know, Innes. Let's go with comparing him to Neimi! Thaaaat's, kill the bias, 3 vice 6.5. 20/1 Neimi has ...a 2 point SPD lead on base Innes. Hell, if it were easy to get her TO 20 I'd say you might have a stance saying Neimi > Innes, if only by a little bit and only if we're rating Ephraim Route. Except, the problem is, same with Saleh and Ewan, Innes hasn't taken a damn thing to be the man he is today and you sure as hell don't have a 20/1 Neimi in Chapter 11. So that means that Neimi contributes while Innes isn't around, but when Innes rolls around he's contributing more than she is. At the VERY BEST, playing a style that heavily favors Neimi, you could argue that Neimi = Innes. No, you didn't go for that, you went for the 3.5 point difference.

Tethys ...eh, I don't feel like tackling your Tethys score. It's too dumb.

You want to do this, man? I want to do this. I'm raring to argue me some Sacred Stones. I love arguing me some Sacred Stones.

[I don't play for turns]

At least you have the gall/stones to counter hostile with even more hostiler. That's nice, I guess.

Let's play a game. It's called "I don't care that JB and Cam have already been mean to you I want to be mean to you too even though I partially suspect you're a troll/an alt".

"that piece of garbage he calls a strength stat" is a 7 base +40% growth. That's Franz's parameters, to the letter, except he has fewer levels to make up for it. That makes him worse than Franz.

No shit. You know who else has shit Strength? Amelia. You rated her on a level with Forde even though her meaningful gains on him are sorry I lied she doesn't have any. At all. Wanna know what Neimi's STR parameters are? They're base 4 +45%. That means that she beats Forde by a whopping grand total of two points. At 20/20. Which she starts a very long far way from. You rated her a fair sight BETTER than Forde, though, because why?

Screw it, I'm taking this thing as a whole piece now. I'm done picking at the amazingly bad ones like Forde and Ewan. I'm gunning for the whole lot.

L'Arachel: 7.5/10. Let me lay one thing out for you: I love L'Arachel. It hurts me to condemn her. This is how far I'm willing to stoop for your amusement. Here are her meaningful leads on Natasha: wait fuck I did that lying thing again. Okay, not really, L'Arachel wins in one stat by a good margin: Skill. Congratulations. She also shows up six chapters later (that's almost a third of the game) and at level 3. Good. Does this mean I won't almost always use L'Arachel instead of Natasha? No, it doesn't. Does this mean L'Arachel is actually better than Natasha? (hint: the answer is also no.)

Saleh: 3.5 vice Ewan: 7.5. No, let's even be fair to you and drop your bias and call your Ewan as it is at 7. Here are Saleh and Ewan's respective stat pages. Do you notice how at Saleh's 20/20/1 he has almost the same stats as a 10/20/1 Ewan? For none of the effort? With a Staff Rank that Ewan doesn't have? Taken to he 20/20 conclusion, Ewan has a massive 4 points MAG and 2 points SPD win. That's a 12000 gold difference - you probably spend that much money on weapons, staves, and the Guiding Ring just to bring Ewan up to Saleh's base parameters. Nicely done! Do you see how Ewan > Saleh is absolutely inconceivable?

(here's a quick hint before you bring up the subjective defense: i didn't tell you not to like ewan. read closer.)

What else do I want to do today? Ooh, I know, Innes. Let's go with comparing him to Neimi! Thaaaat's, kill the bias, 3 vice 6.5. 20/1 Neimi has ...a 2 point SPD lead on base Innes. Hell, if it were easy to get her TO 20 I'd say you might have a stance saying Neimi > Innes, if only by a little bit and only if we're rating Ephraim Route. Except, the problem is, same with Saleh and Ewan, Innes hasn't taken a damn thing to be the man he is today and you sure as hell don't have a 20/1 Neimi in Chapter 11. So that means that Neimi contributes while Innes isn't around, but when Innes rolls around he's contributing more than she is. At the VERY BEST, playing a style that heavily favors Neimi, you could argue that Neimi = Innes. No, you didn't go for that, you went for the 3.5 point difference.

Tethys ...eh, I don't feel like tackling your Tethys score. It's too dumb.

You want to do this, man? I want to do this. I'm raring to argue me some Sacred Stones. I love arguing me some Sacred Stones.

I've seen a lot of your posts, and you seem like an expert. I don't want to argue with you, even though it's what you're asking for.

I'm only saying a few more things on this topic. These are based on how they've performed when I played, which was only a few times. I'll swallow my pride here, which I almost never do. You're probably right. I don't want to make enemies with anyone. I probably got good/bad luck with the characters you all disagree with. So there. You got me to say it. Happy now trolls?

And I'm not excellent at rating non-combat characters, but My L'Archel came close to capping basically all of her stats before romotion, and Natasha didn't.

P.S. I was considering to to thank you from what you said earlier, but I don't really feel like it anymore.

[Ciarre]

I'm only saying a few more things on this topic. These are based on how they've performed when I played, which was only a few times. I'll swallow my pride here, which I almost never do. You're probably right. I don't want to make enemies with anyone.

That takes major balls. Respect, man.

[Ansem]

Happy now trolls?

So pointing out you're wrong = trolling? I would love to live in your world.

[Integrity]

These are based on how they've performed when I played, which was only a few times. I'll swallow my pride here, which I almost never do. You're probably right. I don't want to make enemies with anyone. I probably got good/bad luck with the characters you all disagree with. So there. You got me to say it. Happy now trolls?

I'm going to zone straight in on this, regardless of whether you decide to respond or not, because I'm mostly positive that you'll read this and it might help you since you seem like a decent person even if you're quicker than I am to jump to hostility.

I don't care what CR-S01 says, it doesn't really take major stones to say "i'm rating based on what they were for me" - considering that a watered down version of that was what the threads were based on. *I* rated characters more based on what I wanted to than what was really right than I'm comfortable admitting, and I was really free in exercising my +/- 1 bias rights. The point of the matter is, if you want to be in the arguing threads you have to be willing to play by the arguing threads rules. I won't take any offense to your playstyle - I worked with fucking General Banzai, who rates his units explicitly on Creature Campaign performance - as long as you're not saying things that are actually provably wrong - Kyle's "not that bad" SPD is identical in all forms to Forde's "shitty" STR. I'm just throwing that out there. In a similar vein, I'll not typically (sometimes I fanboi mode) get pissy for you saying you *like* a character, but say they're *better* than another character when they're not and that's when you get my stupid essays.

Now that that's done, when I said the arguing threads rules consider please an anecdote. By your other posts in the rest of the forum I can surmise that you've played FE11, yes? I had a Marth - I shit you not, this is on record in the drafting section - who 1RKOd most of everything he touched on H5 through to about Chapter 20, when Catria overtook him. That one Marth was a spectacular unit. Absolutely amazing. Because of that one Marth, I'll use Marth much more than I did before because I had him go right once. As far as the arguing threads go, should I be arguing that Marth > ...some other people? Probably not, since a typical Marth is sorta wishywashy. On a similar vein, I had a solid fucking bombastic 10/10 Eirika who tanked through the first roughly 12 chapters of the game without even slowing down, but I definitely wouldn't say Eirika's a 10/10 unit. That's what the average stats are for, mate - to give us something to argue about.

If you want to keep your subjective bias-riddled opinions on characters go ahead. I encourage you, in fact! I'm among the worse for that. But if you're going to go in the arguing threads at least have some respect for the purpose of the threads.

Now to cap it off, we're not "trolling" - this is an arguing thread for arguing, and we're arguing with you. Define trolling, again?

The rest of the post is irrelevant to the above:

And I'm not excellent at rating non-combat characters, but My L'Archel came close to capping basically all of her stats before romotion, and Natasha didn't.

Either you had a fucking incredibly stupid blessed L'Arachel, or "basically all of her stats" = "spd and res".

[Parrhesia]

Or twenty-five out of sixty qualifies as 'coming close to capping'.

[MacLovin]

hoooooboy.

First of all, someone needs to learn PEMN.

Secondly, the same person needs to do research.

and it's not any of the people without a "Turns" in their username.

Also, HOW IS TETHYS A 4/10?

UNDER FUCKING NEIMI AND EWAN.

I MEAN, A DANCER UNDER A SEVERELY UNDERLEVELLED EST?

THAT HAS 8 ATTACK AT BASE?!