Rate the Unit: Sacred Stones Endgame

[Integrity]

Or twenty-five out of sixty qualifies as 'coming close to capping'.

Give her a Robe and she's halfway there.

EDIT: Harpoon, stop undermining my argument.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Integrity

[I don't play for turns]

I'm going to zone straight in on this, regardless of whether you decide to respond or not, because I'm mostly positive that you'll read this and it might help you since you seem like a decent person even if you're quicker than I am to jump to hostility.

I don't care what CR-S01 says, it doesn't really take major stones to say "i'm rating based on what they were for me" - considering that a watered down version of that was what the threads were based on. *I* rated characters more based on what I wanted to than what was really right than I'm comfortable admitting, and I was really free in exercising my +/- 1 bias rights. The point of the matter is, if you want to be in the arguing threads you have to be willing to play by the arguing threads rules. I won't take any offense to your playstyle - I worked with fucking General Banzai, who rates his units explicitly on Creature Campaign performance - as long as you're not saying things that are actually provably wrong - Kyle's "not that bad" SPD is identical in all forms to Forde's "shitty" STR. I'm just throwing that out there. In a similar vein, I'll not typically (sometimes I fanboi mode) get pissy for you saying you *like* a character, but say they're *better* than another character when they're not and that's when you get my stupid essays.

Now that that's done, when I said the arguing threads rules consider please an anecdote. By your other posts in the rest of the forum I can surmise that you've played FE11, yes? I had a Marth - I shit you not, this is on record in the drafting section - who 1RKOd most of everything he touched on H5 through to about Chapter 20, when Catria overtook him. That one Marth was a spectacular unit. Absolutely amazing. Because of that one Marth, I'll use Marth much more than I did before because I had him go right once. As far as the arguing threads go, should I be arguing that Marth > ...some other people? Probably not, since a typical Marth is sorta wishywashy. On a similar vein, I had a solid fucking bombastic 10/10 Eirika who tanked through the first roughly 12 chapters of the game without even slowing down, but I definitely wouldn't say Eirika's a 10/10 unit. That's what the average stats are for, mate - to give us something to argue about.

If you want to keep your subjective bias-riddled opinions on characters go ahead. I encourage you, in fact! I'm among the worse for that. But if you're going to go in the arguing threads at least have some respect for the purpose of the threads.

Now to cap it off, we're not "trolling" - this is an arguing thread for arguing, and we're arguing with you. Define trolling, again?

The rest of the post is irrelevant to the above:

Either you had a fucking incredibly stupid blessed L'Arachel, or "basically all of her stats" = "spd and res".

My L'Archel must've been the latter over the former. And don't worry, I'll take part in these argument's when I'm ready, which doesn't seem to be right now. I kind of exaggerated in how I felt in all of my posts, 'cos this is my first time in a forum. Especially, the last one. I kinda felt like guilting you into making posts like the one you just did. (MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA) i probably shouldn't have been so violent with my opinions either, and frankly, I just couldn't respond to that entire post you made in one sitting. It was long! Anyway, no hard feelings to you or the three or four other guys who disagreed with me.

P.S. Thanks for what you said earlier, about giving me a chance.

Edit: I forgot to say trolls was a joke. Don't take everything so seriously, sheesh,... It's not like I did in, like, all of my other posts. (Hehehehehe)

Edited April 23, 2012 by I don't play for turns

[eclipse]

The only character I missed was Neimi, so I'll unofficially rate her:

Her absolute greatest use is chipping the wall she starts next to. If you can be bothered to bring her frail self with you, and don't mind taking delicate bites out of enemy's HP, then she might do well. Luckily, she's not fighting with anyone over her promotion item. I guess being on a horse means that she'll be mobile chip, but getting her there is hard. That being said. . .

3/10

EDIT: Wait, I'm an idiot. Who did I not rate then? I'll put that below, once I figure out who it is.

EDIT THE SECOND: No wonder I got them mixed up. The person I forgot to rate was FE7's Rebecca.

Edited April 23, 2012 by eclipse

[Raven]

I think I missed/didn't bother rating every FE8 unit. Can't remember.

But yeah I disagree with maybe one or two positions on there. I'll scan through later when I'm not FUCKING PROCRASTINATING FROM MY DISSERTATION WORK WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO BE FINISHED BY TOMORROW FUCK.

[Hawk King]

Haha, he gave Syrene a -.5 bias for "wearing too much lipstick"...

Syrene isn't wearing ANY lipstick. Tethys is the only character who wears lipstick.

[Elieson]

serenesforest.net/fe8/average/

Visit that link, Mr.Turns. There, you can see the mathematical average for every units stats, at any level.

Learn to use it. It is effective information to show how you were "blessed" or "cursed".

[eclipse]

I think I should've given Vanessa and Syrene a -.5 for "how do you ride your mount?"

[Colonel M]

I have to admit, I'm kind of surprised at the Lute score. Odd how so much changes over the years.

EDIT:

I just finished my "Lute is awesome PT" where I mostly routed every map with Lute from the point she showed up.

magic always has either 1-2 range or 3-10 range, she gains staves upon promotion, either a horse or light magic with it, she starts in an easy chapter to train her in, joins pretty early, anima is the best magic type, what else would you want?

9/10

She's fucking amazing.

10/10

OH COME THE FUCKS ON!

Also God fucking damn at this vote:

relatively low starting stats, won't reach any caps on average. early game he's overpowered, when trying to start using him later in the game, he's under powered.

I know he can solo the game, but that's just early recruitment speaking, anyone could if they joined earlier.

6/10 for early recruitment

Does this man / kid / whatever have any sort of a brain?

Edited April 23, 2012 by Colonel M

[Parrhesia]

I think

4/10, overshadowed in terms of endgame stats. Because I don't rate on utility (except for thieves and even then they need to have some potential to dodge).

I'm ready to be "tarred and feather'd"

was worse, because if 'Killing everything forever with 8 move from the first chapter' falls under 'utility' then what the fuck is he rating anyone on?

I also like the fact that he assumes Seth doesn't match up to everyone else at level 20 Paladin, considering he beats Amelia's averages (considering everything worth a damn in FE8 is slow as molasses anyway) and is pretty equal to the rest.

[I.M. Gei]

I like how FERS was so butthurt that he committed account suicide after his Duessel vote was tossed.

and lolwhase

Edited April 24, 2012 by Black★Rock Shooter

[Irony]

Why DID Amelia and Ewan get such low scores? If anyone bothers to train them, they end up better then prepromotes themselves. Also, Ewan as a lvl 20 druid (having promoted to druid at lvl 20) can KO any monster in 1-2 hits, and is my best magic unit. Amelia, 2nd best non mounted unit as she can weild all 3 weapons in weapon tri and has the 2nd best stats (After Gerik).

Gerik deserves his high score though, he was AMAZING!!!! Tethys on the other hand, I NEVER use. She cannot attack, wastes a unit space and can get killed realy easily.

If I were to rate the units, then I would rate them thus:

Eirika: 7/10 (6 + 1 bias for being the main lord)

Seth: 3/10 (4 -1 bias for being prepromote. Also got massacered by a RANGER in chapter 10.)

Franz: 9/10 (7 + 2 for being awesome in presonality)

Gilliam: 5/10 (No bias)

Moulder: 7/10 (8 -1 bias for ending up with 6 magic at lvl 19 sage. Had to unwillingly support him with Clom to help him kill SOMETHING)

Vanessa: 6/10 (no bias)

Garcia: 8/10 (No bias)

Ross: 10/10 (9 + 1 bias for being a trainee.)

Neimi: 7/10 (6 +1 bias for her C support with Amelia)

Colm: 8/10 (No bias)

Lute: 9/10 (no bias)

Artur: 9/10 (no bias)

Natasha: 7/10 (6.5 +.5 bias for looking strangely like my sis )

Joshua: 9/10 (8 + 1 bias for being my awesome assassin)

Ephraim: 9/10 (no bias)

Kyle: 7/10 (no bias)

Forde: 7/10 (6.5+.5 bias because he is an artist)

Tana: 8/10 (no bias)

Amelia: 10/10 (9.5+.5 bias for trainee, and being awesome as a general in general)

Duessel: 4/10 (5-1 bias because he is a prepromote.)

Knoll: 8/10 (no bias)

Cormag: 9/10 (8.5+.5 bias because everything about him is freakin awesome)

L'Archel: 8/10 (7 +1 bias because she makes me laugh in the game)

Dozla: 3/10 (2.5+.5 bias because he's amusing)

Ewan: 10/10 (9.5+.5 for trainee and being awesome)

Marisa: 7/10 (6.5+.5 bias for looking awesome.)

Tethys: 0.5/10 (1-.5 bias (-1 bias for being completly and utterly useless but +.5 bias because of her name))

Gerik: 10/10 (9.5+.5 bias for being God)

Rennac: 1/10 (2-1 bias for being one of my worst units.)

Innes: 3/10 (3.5-.5 bias (-1 bias for being a prepromote but +.5 bias for his A support with Erikia))

Saleh: 3.5/10 (4.5 - 1 bias for being a prepromote)

Myrrh: 8/10 (10 - 2 bias because her dragonstone has only 50 uses)

Syrene: 3/10 (4-1 bias for being a prepromote)

Edited June 7, 2012 by GoldenEmblem7

[OrangeCrush980]

popcorn.gif

[Starwave]

Not even worth it.

I wish had joined sooner so I could partake in these. Would have enjoyed backing Eirika up :/

[Just call me AL]

Why DID Amelia and Ewan get such low scores?

They have the misfortune of being underleveled, having craptacular bases, and having a high chance of dying. Sure they turn out comparable to the rest of the group when trained (even though their growths aren't anything special), the need to eat up a substantial amount of turns worth of babying to get there.

If anyone bothers to train them,

Hence what I mean by babying, which isn't favorable because of the amount of turns it takes.

they end up better then prepromotes themselves.

One: Personal experiences mean nothing. Just because a unit wound up good/bad for you, the same thing isn't likely to happen again, or be shared by anyone else. Two: Even if this were true, since we're talking about FE8 here, it wouldn't be by much even with something as meaningless as 20/20 stats. The only real differences would be in weapon levels, and overall performance. Which are just two of the advantages prepromotes themselves have. Don't believe me? Just the check base stats and averages pages on this site. And the FE8 enemy stats topic.

Also, Ewan as a lvl 20 druid (having promoted to druid at lvl 20) can KO any monster in 1-2 hits, and is my best magic unit. Amelia, 2nd best non mounted unit as she can weild all 3 weapons in weapon tri and has the 2nd best stats (After Gerik).

Again: Personal experiences mean nothing. Besides, just about anyone can take monsters in 1-2 hits. And really? Making Amelia a General? I have no problem with that, but it's just that WTC isn't worth missing out on extra movement. Even when using someone as bad as Amelia.

Tethys on the other hand, I NEVER use. She cannot attack, wastes a unit space and can get killed realy easily.

It sounds like you're putting Tethys on the front lines, which isn't what she's meant for. True, many units she'll be next to are front-liners, but having her on the team isn't a detriment, but a benefit instead because of her refresh ability.

Seth: 3/10 (4 -1 bias for being prepromote. Also got massacered by a RANGER in chapter 10.)

I'm just gonna say it right now: If something like this is happening to Seth of all units, either you just majorly unlucky, or you're doing something wrong. Edited June 7, 2012 by Little Al

[Rewjeo]

Seth got massacred in chapter 10? I'd like to see how Amelia or nonexistant Ewan would have done.

Also: http://serenesforest.net/fe8/average/amelia1.html http://serenesforest.net/fe8/average/seth.html

Notice that the two of them are practically identical (the SKL/SPD/LUK she has isn't doing anything) but Seth has twice the time to gain half as many levels.

[Thor Odinson]

More like Seth massacred the Ranger in chapter 10

Oh, and carrying Eirika at that

I remember that chapter on my Eir route Sethsolo full recruitment run. Getting Seth to not murder Marisa was the hardest part of the chapter.

The trainees actually have very below average growths. Like, some of the worst growths for SS. All they have is 10 extra level ups for more standard deviation, while the average unit beats them out by 20-30 more points of actual growth rates. Disregarding that Seth wins both bases and availability and talking from a straight growth rate perspective, The trainees have 270 total growths (one of them has 275, don't remember who, might be Ewan) while Seth has 325. If I want to see all-stat level ups, I'd have a better chance seeing it on Seth than the trainees.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Sunwoo]

First off, it's your right to rate the characters however you wish, according to your own play style. However, note that many people are not going to have the same way of playing the game as you do and, therefore, not hold the same characters in the same regard as you. I don't like using Ewan and Amelia much. They come much too underleveled in the main story and require grinding to level them up. Amelia has crummy bases (including con), a javelin leaves her with 0 AS (which is bad), and hits defense at that. Ewan at least can hit resistance at 2-range, but you have other magic users who either came in early or come in decently leveled for the time they show up.

In other words, trainees are a pain because they come in massively underleveled at inappropriate times in the game. Ross is the exception in which he comes early enough to be made useful. But if you hate grinding or prefer units who can contribute from the get-go, trainees are not going to be highly regarded. In other words, Amelia and Ewan got low scores because the majority of people who rated them hate to train them or don't feel as if they are more worthwhile than other units who show up more appropriately leveled.

Dancers like Tethys can be annoying to score because either they're awesome because they let another person move or they're worthless because they can't attack. However, you have to acknowledge that dancers are key in many players' strategies. Therefore, she may be a "waste of space" for you, but absolutely essential for other people. It's all play style.

Second, reasonings where you provided them seem to heavily weigh on your personal experiences. Which, in retrospect, everyone has their own. But it's more reliable to rate characters on their averages. For example ... I had an awesome Lyn the last time I played FE7. She had 18 strength before promotion. BEFORE. She was tanky and solid. No statboosters, even though I went through Lyn's mode. She was speed-screwed, but her speed was still good enough to double pretty much everything she fought against.

Let's say that I rate Lyn based just on this one Lyn's performance. That isn't accurate at all, though, because on average Lyn with Lyn's mode only has 11.6 strength before promotion. Her durability stinks and doesn't shape up fast enough. In other words, it's not an indicator of how Lyn does ON AVERAGE, but how one specific Lyn on one specific playthrough did for me. Likewise, your justification for Ewan and Amelia seems based only on how well they did for you, without taking into consideration how they may usually end up.

It's your right to rate characters however you want to rate them. However, other users also have the right to rate characters how they feel and you have to keep in mind that most people play a different playstyle as you. Also, you were allowed only one point of bias. You would have given some characters two.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Folgore Yellow

[Colonel M]

Dozla: 3/10 (2.5+.5 bias because he's amusing)

But he's a prepromote.

Wouldn't that mean he gets a -1 bias?

[riariadne]

popcorn.gif

Way too late, Man. Integrity is probably (rightfully) not going to adjust the scores for a bunch of votes that deviate far from the average (... all I should have to say is seth) and are not adequately backed up.

[Baldrick]

But he's a prepromote.

Wouldn't that mean he gets a -1 bias?

Obviously he gets +1.5 bias for being amusing, and the PP bias cancels that out somewhat.

[Esaka]

So, I guess these people came onto the scene because of the ambassador program?

[Colonel M]

Obviously he gets +1.5 bias for being amusing, and the PP bias cancels that out somewhat.

I will not believe it until I hear it from the horse's mouth.

3/10 for Seth and 4/10 for Duessel? Madness...

Edited June 8, 2012 by Colonel M

[MacLovin]

Way too late, Man. Integrity is probably (rightfully) not going to adjust the scores for a bunch of votes that deviate far from the average (... all I should have to say is seth) and are not adequately backed up.

Integs going to rage if this thread keeps geting bumped.

Why DID Amelia and Ewan get such low scores? If anyone bothers to train them, they end up better then prepromotes themselves. Also, Ewan as a lvl 20 druid (having promoted to druid at lvl 20) can KO any monster in 1-2 hits, and is my best magic unit. Amelia, 2nd best non mounted unit as she can weild all 3 weapons in weapon tri and has the 2nd best stats (After Gerik).

Gerik deserves his high score though, he was AMAZING!!!! Tethys on the other hand, I NEVER use. She cannot attack, wastes a unit space and can get killed realy easily.

If I were to rate the units, then I would rate them thus:

Eirika: 7/10 (6 + 1 bias for being the main lord)

Seth: 3/10 (4 -1 bias for being prepromote. Also got massacered by a RANGER in chapter 10.)

Franz: 9/10 (7 + 2 for being awesome in presonality)

Gilliam: 5/10 (No bias)

Moulder: 7/10 (8 -1 bias for ending up with 6 magic at lvl 19 sage. Had to unwillingly support him with Clom to help him kill SOMETHING)

Vanessa: 6/10 (no bias)

Garcia: 8/10 (No bias)

Ross: 10/10 (9 + 1 bias for being a trainee.)

Neimi: 7/10 (6 +1 bias for her C support with Amelia)

Colm: 8/10 (No bias)

Lute: 9/10 (no bias)

Artur: 9/10 (no bias)

Natasha: 7/10 (6.5 +.5 bias for looking strangely like my sis )

Joshua: 9/10 (8 + 1 bias for being my awesome assassin)

Ephraim: 9/10 (no bias)

Kyle: 7/10 (no bias)

Forde: 7/10 (6.5+.5 bias because he is an artist)

Tana: 8/10 (no bias)

Amelia: 10/10 (9.5+.5 bias for trainee, and being awesome as a general in general)

Duessel: 4/10 (5-1 bias because he is a prepromote.)

Knoll: 8/10 (no bias)

Cormag: 9/10 (8.5+.5 bias because everything about him is freakin awesome)

L'Archel: 8/10 (7 +1 bias because she makes me laugh in the game)

Dozla: 3/10 (2.5+.5 bias because he's amusing)

Ewan: 10/10 (9.5+.5 for trainee and being awesome)

Marisa: 7/10 (6.5+.5 bias for looking awesome.)

Tethys: 0.5/10 (1-.5 bias (-1 bias for being completly and utterly useless but +.5 bias because of her name))

Gerik: 10/10 (9.5+.5 bias for being God)

Rennac: 1/10 (2-1 bias for being one of my worst units.)

Innes: 3/10 (3.5-.5 bias (-1 bias for being a prepromote but +.5 bias for his A support with Erikia))

Saleh: 3.5/10 (4.5 - 1 bias for being a prepromote)

Myrrh: 8/10 (10 - 2 bias because her dragonstone has only 50 uses)

Syrene: 3/10 (4-1 bias for being a prepromote)

.5/10 for being entertaining

Also, Prepromotes aren't bad, Amelia, Ewan and MArisa are horrible.

Also, I brought more popcorn.

Oh wait, you rated a dancer useless?

I'm entertained.

Gerik is decent, due to bases+instant promotion.

But, Seth Can just solo the game on HM at half speed, while Dragging other units for route maps.

Like Garcia/Franz for ch4, and Duessel/Cormag/Saleh/Innes/GErik/Syrene/Garcia for later routes

Also, Garcia does better than Gerik, due to helping longer than Gerik, all for the price of Hero+Spdwings.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Folgore Green

[ZemZem]

I'd give the characters these same scores if I was rating them a year or two ago.

I'm glad I changed my play-style.

[MacLovin]

I'm suprised that there's still prepromote hate, even when it has been proven that prepromoted units>growth units.