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Tear Ring Saga Tier List

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That was the original purpose of tier lists, it is the only practical purpose, and it makes the comparisons grounded in something more tangible than other (flexible) scoring methods. So no, I'm not thinking something about current tier lists' objectives; I'm saying that this is the objective they should return to.

That said, your presence reminds me that perhaps this is not the place for this. Ideally, I would start a discussion about this as its own thread with a full tier list as a demonstration, which I should probably get around to making.

Edited by Othin

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The fact that this place tends to have tier lists that focus overly on availability does not change the fact that that is wrong.

This is what you don't seem to understand. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to tier characters. After all, what makes a character "good" is subjective. The criteria used in tier lists is not supposed to be some objective arbiter of pure fact, nor do I have any illusions that arguing over tier lists is some sort of noble endeavour after truth. Nor should you, and you should accept that if you want to debate and discuss characters in obscure SRPGs on message boards, you are going to have to accept the standards and rules of the community, as with all social activities.

Renee's lack of availability earlier does not change that she is a fantastic choice for the time she's available, and should be used for that reason, and the tier list should reflect the advantages of using her while she's available.

And the fact that Renee is good when she is available doesn't change the fact that she is not always available. The tier list should reflect the advantages of existing and being deployable, since a character that exists and is deployable is invariably superior to one who is not. You can tell this because a player that does not use Athos is affected barely at all but a player that does not use Marcus is affected a great deal.

Nothing to misunderstand, because that's false.

Perfection, in all things. Accept nothing less. I always seek the truth, the right answer, however much it may go against existing conventions. Anyone who refuses to consider alternatives is an obstacle that must be worked around or removed.

No doubt, you think you are some kind of Zen badass. You imagine yourself, like a laser, honed purely on The Goal of Noble And Beautiful Objective Truth. Except that your philosophi-fu is weak. The question of what makes a unit good or bad is not one that has an objective answer. What does it mean for a unit to be "good"? It is a question that you could ask a thousand different people and get two thousand different answers. And in a way, that is what makes discussing Fire Emblem so endlessly entertaining.

Don't say "we". You don't; I would.

Athos is my favorite example of the problems with these lists. You look at a typical FE7 tier list, and Athos is ranked low. It sounds like that means "don't use Athos". But that's ridiculous; of course you should use Athos. He doesn't need training; he doesn't need (contested) weapons; he doesn't even need a unit slot.

Tier lists are not meant to be guides to using characters, nor would your suggestion really be any better. To take the example I gave last time you brought up this tripe, if you ranked Erk below Athos, then that might give players the impression that Erk is not worth using and they should use Athos instead.

Actually, I would rank units based on their ability to compete for a unit slot throughout their availability, so because of that last point, there's no need to even rank Athos, same with most Lords. If they're going to be forcibly deployed in every mission, then there's no question of whether or not to use them, so what is there to rate?

Imagine, for example, such a question as applied to the FE10 list! Astrid faces no competition for deployment in CRK chapters, for instance, so technically she should be above Ranulf who always faces competition. Moreover, such a list wouldn't prove to be a great guide to what characters to use anyway. After all, someone like Micaiah is always forced, yet it's not generally worth your while to train her.

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Moreover, such a list wouldn't prove to be a great guide to what characters to use anyway. After all, someone like Micaiah is always forced, yet it's not generally worth your while to train her.

All that's making her worthwhile at all is her Thani tome. Although it sucks that she can never double without forging her a Light tome with less weight. Her already high mag will make her worthwhile to use along with a forged Light tome. She still is forced and should be used though, or you'll never get through the Final Battle since many of her attacks hits all characters.

I honestly should lower Rene because of her lack of availibility. Rene is below Mahter now.

Edited by Elesa

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That was the original purpose of tier lists, it is the only practical purpose, and it makes the comparisons grounded in something more tangible than other (flexible) scoring methods. So no, I'm not thinking something about current tier lists' objectives; I'm saying that this is the objective they should return to.

That said, your presence reminds me that perhaps this is not the place for this. Ideally, I would start a discussion about this as its own thread with a full tier list as a demonstration, which I should probably get around to making.

Are you certain that was the original purpose? As far back as I can remember, it was rating their contribution, not rating how much you should use them when they exist. And who said a tier list needs to have a practical purpose. Anyway, if you want to make a "whom should I use" so-called tier list, then go ahead. You'll even get some traffic, probably, for a little while.

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All that's making her worthwhile at all is her Thani tome. Although it sucks that she can never double without forging her a Light tome with less weight.

Actually, Micaiah isn't weighed down by either Thani or Light, so reducing the weight of Light tomes is just needlessly inflating the cost which is already high. I wouldn't know if it's even possible to reduce the weight of Light tomes since they start at 1WT. Thani is stronger than Light forges anyway.

Her already high mag will make her worthwhile to use along with a forged Light tome. She still is forced and should be used though, or you'll never get through the Final Battle since many of her attacks hits all characters.

It's actually rather easy to have Sothe pick Micaiah up in 4-E-5 to protect her from AoE attacks. And my point was that she shouldn't be used since the experience can be better used on other units.

However, I think any discussion of Micaiah's relative merits should end here since this is not a FE10 tier list.

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Are you certain that was the original purpose? As far back as I can remember, it was rating their contribution, not rating how much you should use them when they exist. And who said a tier list needs to have a practical purpose. Anyway, if you want to make a "whom should I use" so-called tier list, then go ahead. You'll even get some traffic, probably, for a little while.

For the ones I was familiar with, I recall that being a main focus. Don't know about others.

A practical purpose is not necessary, but it's a good basis, and gives the tier list an anchor in reality.

Such a list would rate characters based on how well they give value to a deployment slot. It's based on efficient use not so much of time, but of unit slots. So I think the most fitting title is Deployment Efficiency.

And with that, I believe we've said all we need to say about this. Now, back to Kriess.

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I would play it if there were translation patches... I downloaded it, and briefly tried playing it in Japanese. Didn't work out...

The translation patch is seriously pretty close to done. I've been plugging away at editing the translation (which is complete, albeit not entirely comprehensible) when I can. I haven't heard anything from the guys running it though, but all the data is still there on their Google Docs site.

I think all the guts of it are done, like weapon names and stuff. Doesn't look like there's a beta patch or anything though. Unfortunate, because I really want to finish playing it too but I could only get so far.

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I seriously don't get how language could be a barrier. What problems have you been having?

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I would just like the menus and stats translated. It's just annoying to have to guess and fumble your way through...

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TRS already lists the stats in English, like FE5. And menus are easy to learn.

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TRS already lists the stats in English, like FE5. And menus are easy to learn.

Except that I don't want to have to "learn" what squiggles correspond to what.

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So did I. But more than that, I wanted to play the game.

The time you've spent remarking that you want the menus translated is likely less time than it would take for you to learn them yourself.

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I was like that too when I wanted to play TRS very badly. I tried looking for an english patch for it, so I can play it in english. After months of not finding any english patch, I was like "Fuck it, I'll play it in japanese." and so I did.

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I've imported it since I already know Hirogana, Katakana, and some Kanji writings already. :D

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I've imported it since I already know Hirogana, Katakana, and some Kanji writings already. :D

I did import it, but I couldn't get the disc to work to bypass the region lock on my PS2. Another disc worked for Berwick Saga, but this one didn't for some reason.

I've taken like half a year of high school Japanese so far, so I know some things, but not much. Probably the most valuable thing I know is katakana, which I taught to myself in a day using Berwick Saga weapons well before the class got to it anyway. I'd recommend anyone learn katakana just because you only need to know the alphabet; it's so convenient and easy.

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So did I. But more than that, I wanted to play the game.

Yes, and I'm happy to wait for a translation to be released.

The time you've spent remarking that you want the menus translated is likely less time than it would take for you to learn them yourself.

Except that I enjoy arguing, whereas I don't enjoy fumbling through menus.

Edited by Anouleth

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Personally, I enjoy arguing with reality and winning so it doesn't force me to wait for people to do stuff they may or may not do. But to each his own.

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Personally, I enjoy arguing with reality and winning so it doesn't force me to wait for people to do stuff they may or may not do.

I really don't understand what this means!

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I think he says he has no problem with playing a game without understanding the story if it permits him to argue with you about it.

And I don't think you actually memorise the hieroglyphs unless you are able to read them or it's very necessary to distinguish between them - mostly you just remember that the first option is Wait, second is Heal, etc. We do already have a patch of this game with all character names and weapons/items translated, so it's not terribly confusing to play - you just miss out on the story.

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Nah. To me, overcoming challenges like a language barrier is a lot like winning a good argument.

If you know approximately what will show up, you don't even need to know the exact positions to identify it. For example, if you know that the command you want has a longish name, and you know approximately where it'll show up on the menu, you can find it easily even if some unexpected options are around it. Also, the commands tend to not share symbols, so if you identify a noticeable symbol at the beginning of a command and just associate it with that command, you can find it easily. All in all, it's very, very easy. Takes five minutes to learn, tops, most of it right at the beginning.

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We do already have a patch of this game with all character names and weapons/items translated, so it's not terribly confusing to play - you just miss out on the story.

And menus?

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Nope, the menus are unaltered (at least in the patch that I applied to my ROM).

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I really want to play this game ^^' I just don't know how to get it

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I really want to play this game ^^' I just don't know how to get it

You could buy an imported copy and play it in japanese if you want.

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You could buy an imported copy and play it in japanese if you want.

I tried that, but the disc that was supposed to bypass the region lock wouldn't work.

I wound up just playing through it on emulator and experiences no problems, although I still prefer playing games on the console.

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