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FrostyFireMage

I hope Archers get a buff in this game.

112 posts in this topic

BTW, I should mention I wrote that page before I played the game and I haven't gotten round to checking out the Double Bow yet (that part was added by a contributor).

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I'm pretty sure it doesn't because the Double Bow's innate range is 1-2. I'm also pretty sure that longbows didn't cut accuracy at 3-range either, since their innate range is 2-3. You just think it did because their innate hit is terrible.

Nope. Longbows suck even worse at three range. You have the game. Do me a favour. Get leo a longbow, stand at two range without supports, then stand at 3. If the hit is the same, fine.

Similarly, if you have a 4-E-5 save, take the double bow at 1 range against an aura. Now do the same thing at 2 range. See the difference.

Anyway, back on topic, you should be able to try to crack heads at 1 range with your bow like staffs in fe10. It should also cost 5 uses (bows aren't meant to be used that way so it's gotta do something bad to the bow) and have lower accuracy and damage (-10 to -20 accuracy and mt = str + 2 to 5 depending on the weapon). Now, this could actually make things worse for archers, considering it's a waste of uses and will probably do low damage. At least if they miss they won't burn any uses of the bow.

Edited by Narga_Rocks

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I'm thinking it'd make things worse.

"OKAY GOT MY FRESH DLC INNES GONNA FUCK SOME SHIT UP WITH MY SILVER Boh fuck he has nothing to switch to on EP"

*four melee attacks later*

"WELL THEN SO MUCH FOR THAT"

Edited by Furetchen

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I'm thinking it'd make things worse.

"OKAY GOT MY FRESH DLC INNES GONNA FUCK SOME SHIT UP WITH MY SILVER Boh fuck he has nothing to switch to on EP"

*four melee attacks later*

"WELL THEN SO MUCH FOR THAT"

Yep. It'd be hilarious. He'd do like 5 damage to each of them and then it'd break. Awesome. Okay, maybe it should only burn 2 uses instead of 5, but I've always found it silly that an archer would just stand there and do nothing rather than at least try to punch the guy or something.

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Enemy Killer Bow Snipers could would be a huge pain though if your characters defense isn't too high, 1 range Killer Punch.

Edited by arvilino

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I loved the FE10 marksmen 2-3 range and would like it to return. But I think to make archers viable hte hit rate on javalins and hand axes need to get nerfed thus archers, and light magic users too I guess

I think you'd be better off to go with nerfing MT on javelins and hand axes, not accuracy, as in FE12 (it worked well). If you want to know why, play FE6. colon-e.gif

Magic users target RES, while archers target DEF; in addition, magic users tend to have notably worse HP/DEF than archers to limit their 1 range attacking and overall EP potential and, in FE10 and FE12, crappy SPD bases or caps (or both). So I never found they invade in each other's territory too much.

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Nope. Longbows suck even worse at three range. You have the game. Do me a favour. Get leo a longbow, stand at two range without supports, then stand at 3. If the hit is the same, fine.

Similarly, if you have a 4-E-5 save, take the double bow at 1 range against an aura. Now do the same thing at 2 range. See the difference.

Anyway, back on topic, you should be able to try to crack heads at 1 range with your bow like staffs in fe10. It should also cost 5 uses (bows aren't meant to be used that way so it's gotta do something bad to the bow) and have lower accuracy and damage (-10 to -20 accuracy and mt = str + 2 to 5 depending on the weapon). Now, this could actually make things worse for archers, considering it's a waste of uses and will probably do low damage. At least if they miss they won't burn any uses of the bow.

I think ideas like that are kind of lame. While we're at it, why don't we let sword users counter ranged attacks by throwing their sword with a million hit penalty?

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I think ideas like that are kind of lame. While we're at it, why don't we let sword users counter ranged attacks by throwing their sword with a million hit penalty?

This idea wouldn't be balanced unless it consumed all remaining uses of the sword. After all, you're throwing away the sword, are you not?

EDIT: But seriously, Narga, from somebody who uses archers a crapload and loves the class -- bad idea, imo.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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Yep. It'd be hilarious. He'd do like 5 damage to each of them and then it'd break. Awesome. Okay, maybe it should only burn 2 uses instead of 5, but I've always found it silly that an archer would just stand there and do nothing rather than at least try to punch the guy or something.

Oh, I agree it's a good idea. I just would personally rather an archer try and shiv them or something.

But personally I'm another in favour of good bases + 2-3 range + crit bonus on promotion.

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I think ideas like that are kind of lame. While we're at it, why don't we let sword users counter ranged attacks by throwing their sword with a million hit penalty?

Difference? It's entirely possible if you're a snap shot to get off a close range shot with an arrow. INCREDIBLY difficult but entirely possible. Swords are not made for throwing, unless they are. In fact the best throwing weapon in history are axes, most easily caught as well.

Regardless, One of two things need to happen to keep an archer viable

1. They must be able to attack at range 1

2. They must be so good at killing dudes that the lack of an enemy phase does not hinder them at all.

Either would work, but the way it stands FE gives you an archer and s/he's the worst unit to field, bad bases, bad growths, weak weapon. Bench Fodder. Whether that range 1 is a dedicated knife sub weapon, or crossbows, or an accuracy penalty at range 1, or they can only counter at range 1. Or that they let loose an arrow and the enemy goes 'splat' which is pretty much the case Shinon and Klein make as being good snipers (See that dude? he's no longer on the field.)

Either must happen, because otherwise they will be used until they get to promotion, then get ponies with swords. if you even bother. As it stands, Armor Knights and Archers are the classes that IntSys need a lot of help making better (not so much the latter in FE10, due to all the different bows)

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1. They must be able to attack at range 1

2. They must be so good at killing dudes that the lack of an enemy phase does not hinder them at all.

Or...

3. Play Lunatic and realize offense on PP is usually 10x better than EP and that attacking a H3 beserker wielding a killer axe with 44 ATK without eating a counter is pretty awesome.

I'd kind of be in favor of archers getting 1 range, but if it happens, I want it to be a short bow option; 2-3 MT, low durability before breaking, and expensive -- like javs and hand axes. It would otherwise a poor option compared to other bows, but useful when archers need EP offense. So unlike the weapon trinity, which specializes in 1 range but can do 2 range, bows specialize in 2 range but can do 1 range.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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Realise Lunatic is only one mode and not one that caters to all players, at that. Its difficulty level might be bow-friendly due to the importance of offing a guy on PP before he gets you, but most players would be turned off by the difficulty alone. It's fine to have it as a mode, but it'd be better if bows were balanced better for the less difficult modes as well.

Though, I enjoyed Snipers on FE12 H1 as well, often having 3 orso on my team because why the hell not and javs/handaxes suck. 2-3range and +crit is a fairly simple solution that many have already stated which would help their PP power enough. Even if enemies don't have 1-2 range, it would still be useful in providing situations where the archer can chip without getting in the way of another unit in places like hallways and the such.

Edited by Luminescent Blade

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Or...

3. Play Lunatic

So we should base everything upon the mode that IntSys said is meant to be beyond stupidly difficult, and not at all a representation of the games nature? Because that's what you're saying, and it sounds retarded. That would be like me ranking all units in Gihren's Greed off Hell mode instead of Hardest Mode. One is meant to be "Okay we've just outright started fucking with you" and the other is "This is the highest reasonable difficulty before we actually have to go into a mode named 'HELL' mode"

Of course GG is a legitimately balls hard game to begin with, to the point where you are still likely to get your ass handed to you on Normal mode. But regardless my point stands.

Also a single bow with EP potential, but is so weak you wouldn't consider using it (comparatively not what the Hand Axe/Javelin/Wind Sword are) is not a good idea because A. It's a single weapon B. it does nothing to mitigate the problem with the class C.none of the games have actually featured 'The short bow option' that's hacks. D. It still wouldn't address the fact that InySys has no idea how to make a starting archer. Yes I know you fellate Wil like he's the second coming of Jesus Christ, I don't care. He sucks. So does Wolt, and Ronan, and Rolf, and Neimi, and Jamuka, and Gordin, and Leonardo, and the only possible exclusion to this is in Gaiden, which I haven't played.

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Difference? It's entirely possible if you're a snap shot to get off a close range shot with an arrow. INCREDIBLY difficult but entirely possible.

Is it impossible to throw a sword? Of course not. It's possible; just incredibly difficult.

Swords are not made for throwing, unless they are.

And bows are not made to club people with.

Also; Javelins and Hand Axes magically reappear back in your hand after you throw them. A similar thing would happen with a sword.

And one more thing; even in FE10, bow users still stink. I remember having to basically hide Rolf T in later chapters because he was screwing up my enemy phase and costing turns. I think the best answer is to, like KoT said, make a game where avoiding counter-attacks is actually more relevant, and give archers stronger 3-range options (I don't know about all bows being 2-3 range, but a good set of readily available longbows would be ok).

Edited by Anouleth

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This might be just me, but I think bows should be slightly more ranged. I mean ... they're BOWS. Swords, lances, and axes ... you have to be up close to fight the enemy with them. Throwing spears and axes, even, you have to be a tad closer if you want them to hit. But bows are literally MADE for attacking far away. Of course ... giving bows super range might make archers a little on the broken side, especially if they had high strength and speed to go with it (can you imagine picking off every boss by using an archer like a mage with a siege tome?), so I think that longbows should have the same range as siege tomes (and work like siege tomes, basically) while normal bows should have 2-3 range ... 2-4 at the most. 5 range would make them a little broken.

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So we should base everything upon the mode that IntSys said is meant to be beyond stupidly difficult, and not at all a representation of the games nature? Because that's what you're saying, and it sounds retarded. That would be like me ranking all units in Gihren's Greed off Hell mode instead of Hardest Mode. One is meant to be "Okay we've just outright started fucking with you" and the other is "This is the highest reasonable difficulty before we actually have to go into a mode named 'HELL' mode"

Of course GG is a legitimately balls hard game to begin with, to the point where you are still likely to get your ass handed to you on Normal mode. But regardless my point stands.

You said that the ONLY way to make archers balanced is either one of two options. I noted that there is at least a third, which is displayed in H3 FE12 but is not exclusive to balls hard modes. I went on to say WHY bows are good there, namely that javs and hand axes have low MT in comparison to other lances/axes (unlike GBA FEs, for example), that PP offense is made important, and that eating counters is unwise. The latter two done largely by making fewer but stronger enemies instead of the FE7 HHM philosophy SPAM CRAPLOADS OF MEDIOCRE ENEMIES GOOOO. You don't NEED to have a balls hard mode to make archers good, rather that anything with great 2 range (or one that is better than most classes) is automatically going to be better on harder modes than on their easier counterparts, where you're punished more and more for eating unnecessary counters because enemy stats go up and up.

Also a single bow with EP potential, but is so weak you wouldn't consider using it (comparatively not what the Hand Axe/Javelin/Wind Sword are) is not a good idea because A. It's a single weapon B. it does nothing to mitigate the problem with the class C.none of the games have actually featured 'The short bow option' that's hacks. D. It still wouldn't address the fact that InySys has no idea how to make a starting archer. Yes I know you fellate Wil like he's the second coming of Jesus Christ, I don't care. He sucks. So does Wolt, and Ronan, and Rolf, and Neimi, and Jamuka, and Gordin, and Leonardo, and the only possible exclusion to this is in Gaiden, which I haven't played.

A. So are the javelin/hand axe in FE6/7/8, and yet they change how the game plays dramatically, especially considering Seth, Zealot, and Marcus can wield them. Obviously short bows would be as accessible as the hand axe and javelin were in FE7/8, being found commonly on recruited characters and in plenty of shops. And it doesn't matter if it's a single weapon, because it single-handedly gives archers better EP.

B. Really? An item giving archers 1 range counters does nothing to help the class? Want to think that one again?

C. Never said otherwise, and that's no reason why it shouldn't be implemented.

D. This is...completely unrelated. Yeah, SF hates units with low bases and high growths. In other news, the sky is blue.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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Is it impossible to throw a sword? Of course not. It's possible; just incredibly difficult.

And bows are not made to club people with.

Also; Javelins and Hand Axes magically reappear back in your hand after you throw them. A similar thing would happen with a sword.

And one more thing; even in FE10, bow users still stink. I remember having to basically hide Rolf T in later chapters because he was screwing up my enemy phase and costing turns. I think the best answer is to, like KoT said, make a game where avoiding counter-attacks is actually more relevant, and give archers stronger 3-range options (I don't know about all bows being 2-3 range, but a good set of readily available longbows would be ok).

Have you ever tried throwing a sword? Like, REALLY tried. Yes. It is impossible, I'm not talking difficult, I'm saying that unless you literally trained your entire life to throw a SINGLE sword, you would not be able to throw one effectively. They are not knives. And it is not at all comparable to making a snap shot with a bow. Keep in mind I'm not talking about clubbing people with bows, that's stupid. it would be just as effective as priests hitting with staffs. It's not about the magical appearance of a weapon in your hand. it's about "Axes and Javelins are actual throwing weapons, swords are not" hence why any 1-2 range sword has to be 'magical' in some capacity.

I know Bow Users still stink, so do Armors. At the very least Bow users in FE10 have the Crossbows/Longbows/Double Bow, not to mention their not at all unwanted crit bonus, so they are still more usable than any other land based Mono-Bow user(So no one starts listing Warriors) that has come before them, sans the Gaiden 1-3 Range archers.

You said that the ONLY way to make archers balanced is either one of two options. I noted that their is at least a third, which is displayed in H3 FE12 but is not exclusive to balls hard modes. I went on to say WHY bows are good there, namely that javs and hand axes have low MT in comparison to other lances/axes (unlike GBA FEs, for example), that PP offense is made important, and that eating counters is unwise. The latter two done largely by making fewer but stronger enemies instead of the FE7 HHM philosophy SPAM CRAPLOADS OF MEDIOCRE ENEMIES GOOOO. You don't NEED to have a balls hard mode to make archers good, rather that anything with great 2 range (or one that is better than most classes) is automatically going to be better on harder modes, where you're punished more and more for eating unnecessary counters because enemy stats go up and up.

A. So are the javelin/hand axe in FE6/7/8, and yet they change how the game plays dramatically, especially considering Seth, Zealot, and Marcus can wield them. Obviously short bows would be as accessible as the hand axe and javelin were in FE7/8, being found commonly on recruited characters and in plenty of shops. And it doesn't matter if it's a single weapon, because it single-handedly gives archers better EP.

B. Really? An item giving archers 1 range counters does nothing to help the class? Want to think that one again?

C. Never said otherwise, and that's no reason why it shouldn't be implemented.

D. This is...completely unrelated. Yeah, SF hates units with low bases and high growths. In other news, the sky is blue.

Lets see, Hand Axe - 7 Mt, Iron Bow - 6 Mt, Javelin - 6 Mt. How is this at all comparable to a Weapon with 2-3 Mt? Oh right it isn't, but you're an idiot so we'll move on

No, it does NOT help the class if it is worthless to begin with. Especially since Nomads/Rangers/Warriors can all use bows, so it's not at all exclusive to them (not to mention your poorly balanced Mt)

Here's a reason, because Crossbows did the job better.

HA! That's a good one, Archers with good growths. You know for a second there, I was maybe thinking about taking you seriously. Then I forgot how absolutely obsessed with Archers you are.The only one for a second who can be considered to have good growths, is Rolf.

Edited by Onmi

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He sucks. So does Wolt, and Ronan, and Rolf, and Neimi, and Jamuka, and Gordin, and Leonardo, and the only possible exclusion to this is in Gaiden, which I haven't played.

Nitpick: Jamka's stats is honestly pretty good and his offensive power is very high. FE4 AI is weird too, so sometimes enemies with javelins still attack bowmen from 2 range making bowlock not as terrible of a curse to have. Jamka's issue is not his stats. Those are completely fine. It's that he's in FE4 with the huge maps without a horse. If FE4 had better balance of movement, he would be a great unit. He's still pretty good to those who don't care about taking their time on maps.

I think FE4 had the right idea by having foot units have higher offensive power than the mounted guys, but the downfall in its implementation was the size of the maps making being mounted of such high importance, and the enemies sucking so much that the higher offensive power, especially in gen2, isn't as necessary.

but screw that overkilling everything with mai goddesses is so much fun

Edited by Luminescent Blade

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Nitpick: Jamka's stats is honestly pretty good and his offensive power is very high. FE4 AI is weird too, so sometimes enemies with javelins still attack bowmen from 2 range making bowlock not as terrible of a curse to have. Jamka's issue is not his stats. Those are completely fine. It's that he's in FE4 with the huge maps without a horse. If FE4 had better balance of movement, he would be a great unit. He's still pretty good to those who don't care about taking their time on maps.

I think FE4 had the right idea by having foot units have higher offensive power than the mounted guys, but the downfall in its implementation was the size of the maps making being mounted of such high importance, and the enemies sucking so much that the higher offensive power, especially in gen2, isn't as necessary.

but screw that overkilling everything with mai goddesses is so much fun

Point taken

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Lets see, Hand Axe - 7 Mt, Iron Bow - 6 Mt, Javelin - 6 Mt. How is this at all comparable to a Weapon with 2-3 Mt? Oh right it isn't, but you're an idiot so we'll move on

No, it does NOT help the class if it is worthless to begin with. Especially since Nomads/Rangers/Warriors can all use bows, so it's not at all exclusive to them (not to mention your poorly balanced Mt)

...Don't call me an idiot when you're the one who doesn't realize I was obviously referring to FE12 javelins and hand axes, which have 3-4 MT. So yeah, a short bow with 3 MT will compete with a javelin with 3 MT.

Here's a reason, because Crossbows did the job better.

Yay, weapons with fixed MT that don't scale with STR and were rather mediocre overall!

HA! That's a good one, Archers with good growths. You know for a second there, I was maybe thinking about taking you seriously. Then I forgot how absolutely obsessed with Archers you are.The only one for a second who can be considered to have good growths, is Rolf.

Dorothy, for example, had a 50% STR growth, 45% SKL growth, and a 45% SPD growth. Rebecca's and Neimi's were almost identical (Rebecca: 40% STR/50% SKL/60% SPD, Neimi: 45% STR/50% SKL/60% SPD), and Wil sacrificed SPD for a little STR and durability over Rebecca. So yeah, easily some of the best offensive growths in their respective games. Their bases just sucked, and bases mean a crapload as you start playing the game faster and faster, since you get less and less time to level up and outgrow them.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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So, basically, the best way to make archers relevant without having to change their uniqueness is to -

- make bows superior options to other ranged physical weapons like javelins and hand-axes and improving their range.

- fill the maps with stronger units instead of spawning easily killable mooks every few turns, thereby making Player Phase more important.

- improve archer base stats.

- improve archer experience gain rates to make up for a lack of Enemy Phase action (optional).

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So, basically, the best way to make archers relevant without having to change their uniqueness is to -

- make bows superior options to other ranged physical weapons like javelins and hand-axes and improving their range.

- fill the maps with stronger units instead of spawning easily killable mooks every few turns, thereby making Player Phase more important.

- improve archer base stats.

- improve archer experience gain rates to make up for a lack of Enemy Phase action (optional).

Yeah, that's a fantastic summary, and basically correct.

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...Don't call me an idiot when you're the one who doesn't realize I was obviously referring to FE12 javelins and hand axes, which have 3-4 MT.

Yay, weapons with fixed MT that don't scale with STR and were rather mediocre overall!

Dorothy, for example, had a 50% STR growth, 45% SKL growth, and a 45% SPD growth. Rebecca's and Neimi's were almost identical (Rebecca: 40% STR/50% SKL/60% SPD, Neimi: 45% STR/50% SKL/60% SPD), and Wil sacrificed SPD for a little STR and durability over Rebecca. So yeah, easily some of the best offensive growths in their respective games. Their bases just sucked, and bases mean a crapload as you start playing the game faster and faster, since you get less and less time to level up and outgrow them.

Which is of course why you didn't actually mention FE12 on the off chance that, I dunno, the person you were talking to hadn't actually played it (News flash. Hadn't) and only mentioned FE6/7/8.

Yes, Which means that while they gave you a Range 1 option, they didn't overshadow an archers main weapon type/job making bows still a completely viable and indeed useful alternative

Considering I don't play for speed it's funny you mention speed play, growths don't mean jack if your low bases kill them and 20/-- Neimi has 12 strength, At 20/10S the average even a regular speed character will hit, she will have 20, and be range locked. will is pretty much the same except 15 strength at 20/-- and is prety much the same at 20/10, Rebecca HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Dorothy gets the bonus of FE6's huge promotion games, which still doesn't invalidate her terrible weapon choice.

Yes even moving slow, and I move slow I don't GOTTAGOFAST, they still suck. Unless I start gaming the RNG to get them above their averages. but in that sense Roy doesn't suck.

Bases mean more than growths even on slow play.

So, basically, the best way to make archers relevant without having to change their uniqueness is to -

- make bows superior options to other ranged physical weapons like javelins and hand-axes and improving their range.

- fill the maps with stronger units instead of spawning easily killable mooks every few turns, thereby making Player Phase more important.

- improve archer base stats.

- improve archer experience gain rates to make up for a lack of Enemy Phase action (optional).

Yes, I would also make them able to move through forest terrain with no issue.

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Dorothy's biggest issue /is/ actually her bases, since FE6 is another game that it isn't terrible to be a bow user in (Klein, Igrene, the nomads are decent-to-awesome range). At level 3, she's tied or outclassed in the majority of her bases by Sue, who joins as a level 1 unit AND has a horse. I like Dorothy, honestly, but the first time I was using her she got to about level 10 when Shin joined and Shin beat her in literally every stat. Her growths are good and bows are not terrible in FE6 (Sacae is nomads aka bowland and has Wyverns and Ilia has a ton of Pegasi, and javs/handaxes are horribly inaccurate that bows provide better chip damage and there are a good number of instances where you do need to hit through walls) and the promotion bonuses are nice, but it does take a her a pretty long time to grow out of it and you're likely to get Klein and even Igrene before she does grow out of it.

Nobody really likes the hit reduction, so FE12's mt reduction works better, but 1-2 range sucking does contribute to bows being more useful.

Edited by Luminescent Blade

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