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Oboro-Garasu

Golden Sun Mafia

1109 posts in this topic

Apparently, if I'm not leading everything, I am scummy. Thanks, everyone.

Shinoriplzstopvolunteeringinfokthx.

I'm in a. . .different role this game. I'm still trying to figure out how to leverage it properly. Maybe I'll get more inspiration when I'm actually awake.

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What is with me and my wonky scumdar as of late? I mean, Touhou OC, KRRM, and now this. I still have to trust it, but, >_<
1. Do you think we should lynch Manix this cycle?
I earnestly believe that he is an excellent option to hang this cycle, if only because I find it highly unlikely that the mafia would get a redirection/roleblocking role and a jack role with a roleblock as an option. Djinns be damned, seeing as whoever the hell is post restricting is almost certainly not town-aligned. :/
2. Assuming we couldn't lynch Manix, who would you lynch this cycle?
Iris, IMO. This may sound like an OMGUS, but with all due respect, I feel that she's using the pending sub request as an excuse to both be inactive and slip under the scumdar. The fact that she isn't backing up her opinions with these nice things called explanations doesn't help her case.
3. Do you think Spike getting kidnapped by Rapier makes him more likely town/mafia? I don't think that it makes him any particular alignment. What I think is that Rapier's kidnap was a very poorly-thought out move by the player, which hampered our chance to gain deeper reads on Spike. I would go on, but I imagine that the SF Mafia community would rather not have to read a stream of profanities.

Anyways,
[b]##Vote:Manix[/b]

Avoiding the OMGUS accusations. For now.

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It's been a toughish week. Yeah. I didn't actually read much of C2, so I asked for a recap. I'm sorry, bros :/
Also, had a rugby match earlier today. I'm fucking devastated. I need to get some rest and I'll probably come back and reread later.
I think at this rate I'll need a sub. Gah.

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[quote name='Kaoz' date='16 April 2012 - 08:51 AM' timestamp='1334580718' post='1941015']
Well, what do you think it is then?
[/quote]

[quote name='Shinori' date='16 April 2012 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1334584000' post='1941044']
I used my djinn on her which resets the djinn cooldown of whoever i use it on, which means it allows someone to use their djinn two cycles in a row.
[/quote]

I know it's easy to say so now, but that was exactly what I had guessed.


[quote name='Snike' date='16 April 2012 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1334604619' post='1941330']
1. Do you think we should lynch Manix this cycle?
I earnestly believe that he is an excellent option to hang this cycle, if only because I find it highly unlikely that the mafia would get a redirection/roleblocking role and a jack role with a roleblock as an option. Djinns be damned, seeing as whoever the hell is post restricting is almost certainly not town-aligned. :/
[/quote]

Now why on earth would Manix claim Reviver, when he wasn't really in much danger, as mafia? A few people said he would be a good lynch for the next day, but I'm pretty certain he wouldn't actually have been lynched based on C1 stuff. If he was actually a Mafia Reviver, yeah, that would make some sense, but then why wouldn't his role have worked? He would know he'd be likely to get lynched if he didn't do anything. There would be no good reason for a townie to block/redirect him that I can think of, unless it was to redirect him to Prims just in case of that crazy scenario of him reviving Marth. (If some townie actually did mess with Manix, please say something.) There's no way he would be scum who just claimed Reviver and did nothing.


Also, I just realized how insane that Marth-revival situation is.[i] Why would Manix claim if he was gonna revive Marth?[/i] I know he's a noob, but he's not brain-dead. Maybe he would be lynched if he didn't claim, yeah. But he'd still be able to claim if people started voting for him, and he would be dead for sure if he revived Marth after claiming that way. Sure, maybe the numbers would make reviving Marth a good strategy even if it revealed Manix and we could just lynch both of them. But there's no good reason why Manix wouldn't have at least tried to stay quiet in that case.

I know I'm at fault for not seeing how absurd this was before, but now I'm kinda suspicious of everyone who actually argued that this would happen. Noobs I understand. But Kaoz, I want a really good explanation of why you think this makes sense.

[b]
##Unvote[/b] (Spike)

[b]##Vote: Kaoz[/b]

Spike, my vote is going back to you later if you don't either post more or actually sub out.

Also, anyone else think we should get some of the scummy people to claim characters? Maybe Manix too, since I doubt it can make him any more of a target than he already is.

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Is nobody willing to give me just a really short recap on C2? Please, bros.

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[quote name='Kay' date='16 April 2012 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1334608629' post='1941398']
Now why on earth would Manix claim Reviver, when he wasn't really in much danger, as mafia? A few people said he would be a good lynch for the next day, but I'm pretty certain he wouldn't actually have been lynched based on C1 stuff. If he was actually a Mafia Reviver, yeah, that would make some sense, but then why wouldn't his role have worked? He would know he'd be likely to get lynched if he didn't do anything. There would be no good reason for a townie to block/redirect him that I can think of, unless it was to redirect him to Prims just in case of that crazy scenario of him reviving Marth. (If some townie actually did mess with Manix, please say something.) [b]There's no way he would be scum who just claimed Reviver and did nothing.[/b]
[/quote]
Bold: So he claims this power role that's pretty amazing, but [i]mysteriously[/i] 'fails' whenever he can prove it. So, if we believe him, we can't lynch him due to the factor of bringing back the dead. Thus, we lynch other people. Which is exactly what the mafia wants.

Now, here's my theory of what happened. Manix is not actually a reviver, and just claimed roleblocked to last longer. The reason he did this was for WIFOM purposes. Namely, to bring up comments like the one bolded. I mean, apparently we now have [i]three[/i] methods of revival, if we are to believe Spike and Manix. I find it highly likely that one or the other is lying.

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[quote name='Kay' date='16 April 2012 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1334608629' post='1941398']
If he was actually a Mafia Reviver, yeah, that would make some sense, but then why wouldn't his role have worked? He would know he'd be likely to get lynched if he didn't do anything.
[/quote]

So he claimed reviver and didn't do anything, and that's why he has 10 votes on him right now... oh wait, he doesn't.

[quote name='Kay' date='16 April 2012 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1334608629' post='1941398']
[i]Why would Manix claim if he was gonna revive Marth?[/i]
[/quote]

Why would he claim at all? It's a bad move regardless of how you look at it. Although that brings up an interesting point. As I explained before, I find it unlikely that, based on what we know, he would get blocked (so either roleblocked or safeguarded) without getting any actual flavour like Prims did, which would leave the redirect as possibility. Now you said yourself that a townie wouldn't do that, hence it would have to be an anti town role... this makes me wonder though why they would redirect him to an invalid target as opposed to Marth.

[quote name='Kay' date='16 April 2012 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1334608629' post='1941398']
I know I'm at fault for not seeing how absurd this was before, but now I'm kinda suspicious of everyone who actually argued that this would happen. Noobs I understand. But Kaoz, I want a really good explanation of why you think this makes sense.
[/quote]

Specify what exactly you want me to elaborate on please.
If it's the thing reviving Marth thing, you just said yourself that it might have been a good idea even if it revealed two mafia (although you could argue about redirectors again), and claiming a strong role like that certainly is a good way to make sure power roles like a Doctor aren't elsewhere. We don't know how the situation is and in my opinion it would be foolish not to consider cases like that, unlikely as they may be.

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[quote name='Kaoz' date='17 April 2012 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1334616597' post='1941645']this makes me wonder though why they would redirect him to an invalid target as opposed to Marth.
[/quote]

Actually Martyr would be a possibility I guess.

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[quote name='Kaoz' date='16 April 2012 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1334617560' post='1941665']
Actually Martyr would be a possibility I guess.
[/quote]
Why the [i]fuck[/i] would a martyr be on Prims' corpse?

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[quote name='Kaoz' date='16 April 2012 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1334616597' post='1941645']
Why would he claim at all? It's a bad move regardless of how you look at it. Although that brings up an interesting point. As I explained before, I find it unlikely that, based on what we know, he would get blocked (so either roleblocked or safeguarded) without getting any actual flavour like Prims did, which would leave the redirect as possibility. Now you said yourself that a townie wouldn't do that, hence it would have to be an anti town role... this makes me wonder though why they would redirect him to an invalid target as opposed to Marth.



Specify what exactly you want me to elaborate on please.
If it's the thing reviving Marth thing, you just said yourself that it might have been a good idea even if it revealed two mafia (although you could argue about redirectors again), and claiming a strong role like that certainly is a good way to make sure power roles like a Doctor aren't elsewhere. We don't know how the situation is and in my opinion it would be foolish not to consider cases like that, unlikely as they may be.
[/quote]

But it's a [i]worse[/i] move as mafia. He said wanted to clear himself by reviving Prims, and didn't want to deal with a counterclaim. This kinda makes sense. I mean, it's not great, but he is new. Why would he claim as mafia if he was going to revive Marth? I just said myself that reviving Marth might have been a good idea even if got him lynched, yeah, but [i]why would he claim right away if he was going to revive someone other than Prims?[/i] It's also reasonably likely that roles like a Doctor would target someone else to WIFOM, and keeping them off of townies wouldn't be worth claiming a role like that and then being unable to prove it. [i]Considering [/i]cases like that? Sure, great, it's good to do that. Trying to lynch someone based on them? That sounds pretty foolish to me.

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It's possible that the person didn't have the ability to choose who it would be redirected at.

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Boy, this Manix business is confusing.

Can someone tell me what a Martyr does?

[quote name='Kay' date='16 April 2012 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1334608629' post='1941398']Also, anyone else think we should get some of the scummy people to claim characters? Maybe Manix too, since I doubt it can make him any more of a target than he already is.
[/quote]

I think this is a good idea. Actually, I was going to suggest for a mass-character claim, but I think Kay's idea works better. BTW, I think it was Kaoz who suggested the 10 town / 5 mafia, but it's probably more likely that it's 10 / 4 / 1 or 11 / 4, since (my Golden Sun canon knowledge is pretty good, but someone else more familiar like BBM can clarify), but there are four guardians IIRC? IDK why he was talking numbers in the first place, but just wanted to point that out for those not familiar with Golden Sun canon.

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When you say character claim, you mean the name of the character, and not the role, right? I'm okay with the former.

Yes, there are 4 Guardians in GS. Initially, it didn't make sense to me how all 4 could be Guardians with the 8 playable Adepts and the 4 antagonistic ones, but upon seeing that even Hamma was a character, I think Proto just picked and chose which Adepts he wanted to use to make up the Town, which means that there can be any number of them.

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I know fuckall about Golden Sun. Hahah.

Anyway, about the Manix business. I think voting him would be silly. He did claim he would revive Prims at almost the start of the cycle (which was incredibly stupid btw ಠ_ಠ) so the mafia had tons of time to react and might have done something about it. I'm not too sure though. Apparently he got no feedback on what happened?

Also, I'm confused about the Kaoz business. Did something notable happen with him at C2?

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[quote name='BigBangMeteor' date='16 April 2012 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1334629234' post='1941894']
When you say character claim, you mean the name of the character, and not the role, right? I'm okay with the former.

Yes, there are 4 Guardians in GS. Initially, it didn't make sense to me how all 4 could be Guardians with the 8 playable Adepts and the 4 antagonistic ones, but upon seeing that even Hamma was a character, I think Proto just picked and chose which Adepts he wanted to use to make up the Town, which means that there can be any number of them.
[/quote]

Yes. For future reference character means the name --- role claim is the role. :) I was going to suggest a mass character claim, but obviously having the most scummiest people character claim first is smarter. Thanks for confirming, I agree -- it's probably the four guardians, and then random adepts.

@Spike: Kaoz is apparently the one who pushed for a Manix lynch hard or something and had some weird numbers for town vs mafia or something. But mostly the former. At least that's what I remember from C2.

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Also, if their in-game effects are any indication, it's entirely possible that one Guardian will be immune to roles and/or Djinn abilities.

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This kind of activity is horrid. Talk, dammit.

I have no idea what a character claim is supposed to accomplish, short of giving hints to everyone about what they do. The town pool looks pretty random, IMO.

Furthermore, this is C3, and there's gotta be something more than people claiming PRs. . .right? Sorry that I can't help with that part, but my role isn't exactly suited for that.

I'd love to go into this further, but my mom's here. I should be back by tomorrow night (I hope).

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I am actually fine with character claiming if we did that. The only issue with it is yes we might be able to find out who a mafia member or two are BUT if the lighthouses are lit by certain characters dieing then we have to be wary of this when our characters are claiming, mafia could focus the people they need for the lighthouses. They might not know anything about them as well, but there is also the chance that they know alot more than us when it comes to that situation.

But considering the last two characters had stuff blanked out of their role to be unreadable, i'm assuming that lighting the lighthouses does have to do with specific characters and is not a random occurence.

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[quote name='BigBangMeteor' date='16 April 2012 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1334621906' post='1941736']
It's possible that the person didn't have the ability to choose who it would be redirected at.
[/quote]

You know, that is actually a really good point. Dazzler would definitely fit.

[quote name='Iris' date='16 April 2012 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1334627241' post='1941853']
Can someone tell me what a Martyr does?



I think this is a good idea. Actually, I was going to suggest for a mass-character claim, but I think Kay's idea works better. BTW, I think it was Kaoz who suggested the 10 town / 5 mafia, but it's probably more likely that it's 10 / 4 / 1 or 11 / 4, since (my Golden Sun canon knowledge is pretty good, but someone else more familiar like BBM can clarify), but there are four guardians IIRC? IDK why he was talking numbers in the first place, but just wanted to point that out for those not familiar with Golden Sun canon.
[/quote]

Targets one person, redirects everything hitting them to itself.

[quote name='eclipse' date='17 April 2012 - 12:02 AM' timestamp='1334635331' post='1941958']
I have no idea what a character claim is supposed to accomplish, short of giving hints to everyone about what they do. The town pool looks pretty random, IMO.
[/quote]

Well, if the mafia doesn't have safeclaims, they'll need to risk being counterclaimed, in which case it should be easier to figure out which of two people is more likely to be mafia. Either way, those hints will also limit what they can claim later on. And while the town pool might be pretty random, I expect it's not [i]totally[/i] random. Isaac is still a riskier claim than Feizhi.

You have any better ideas, Clipsey?

[quote name='BigBangMeteor' date='16 April 2012 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1334629234' post='1941894']
When you say character claim, you mean the name of the character, and not the role, right? I'm okay with the former.
[/quote]

Right. Just the character. No details about your role/ability or Djinn or anything like that.

[quote name='Shinori' date='17 April 2012 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1334635916' post='1941965']
I am actually fine with character claiming if we did that. The only issue with it is yes we might be able to find out who a mafia member or two are BUT if the lighthouses are lit by certain characters dieing then we have to be wary of this when our characters are claiming, mafia could focus the people they need for the lighthouses. They might not know anything about them as well, but there is also the chance that they know alot more than us when it comes to that situation.

But considering the last two characters had stuff blanked out of their role to be unreadable, i'm assuming that lighting the lighthouses does have to do with specific characters and is not a random occurence.
[/quote]

I think the lighthouses being lit would have to be caused by something bigger than just single characters dying. Otherwise they would all be lit really fast, don't you think? Besides, aren't the blanked out parts of the role PMs just spoilers? Since it's only in the flavor, I doubt it has anything to do with gameplay...


Anyway, I suggest that everyone order all players in the game, with the obvious exception of themselves, from least to most likely to be mafia. It would be useful if we do decide on popcorn claiming, and if not, it's still discussion.

As for mine:

Manix
Joshaymin/Aurora
Shinori
Strawman/StrawSloththeSawSlothStraw
BigBangMeteor
Iris~
Clipsey!/eclipse
Snike/Paperblade
Spike
Kaoz/Ether

Despite my placing Manix at the top of the list, I think he should claim his character [i]if[/i] he doesn't think it will give away any more details of his role. There can't be that many Golden Sun characters who would be likely to be revivers, and IIRC he said that was his actual role, not a Djinn. So that ought to help ascertain his alignment, no?

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Shinori
Kay
Aurora
Eclipse
Iris
Strawman
Spike
Manix
Snike
Kaoz

That's how my list goes... Should I start it off, or should someone who's lower down on the list start, like Kaoz or Snike?

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Okay, cause I'm willing to character claim: I'm Garet.

My knowledge of Golden Sun is very limited (like, I haven't played the games before), but from what I can gather: Naturally, I can't revive people. But, through Role PM flavor: I've read the Tomegathericon (which changes someone to the Dark Mage class series, which eventually can revive people.), which granted me the capacity to revive people. Other fun facts (and those that need repeating):

- I can revive anyone, but only one at once
- Reviving occurs at the end of the phase
- I can choose whether to keep them alive or not.
- Previous omission: [b]When I die, whoever I have revived dies with me.[/b]

Okay, let's review quickly: I doubt there's a mafia redirecter. Because 1) They would have redirected to Marth (unless it's random), and 2) I can terminate Marth whenever I want. Which would be immediately. (That doesn't rule out the possibility of a Dazzler, as Kay said)

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Something is bugging me about the failure (I believe your role, Manix). Like, why make the failure silent? And how badly will whatever that caused you to fail screw with everything else?

Also, the popcorn list goes the other way 'round, Kay. If you're convinced that this'll catch mafia, then you have the scummiest people go first, so you don't give the town ideas on who's who. Also, how do you know that the mafia doesn't have fakeclaims? If they do, all you're doing is giving them a town roll call. . .something that I can't see benefiting the town, while telling the mafia who not to claim.

[b]##Vote: Kay[/b]

I'm sorry, this, combined with your hit-and-run posting style comes off as extremely scummy.

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Dammit, wording.

[quote]If you're convinced that this'll catch mafia, then you have the scummiest people go first, so you don't give the town ideas on who's who.[/quote]

That's supposed to say "give the mafia ideas on who's who".

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[quote name='Snike' date='17 April 2012 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1334617760' post='1941671']
Why the [i]fuck[/i] would a martyr be on Prims' corpse?
[/quote]

The point was a Redirector that could redirect to an invalid target, but not to Marth.

[quote name='Kay' date='17 April 2012 - 02:00 AM' timestamp='1334620840' post='1941722']
But it's a [i]worse[/i] move as mafia. He said wanted to clear himself by reviving Prims, and didn't want to deal with a counterclaim. This kinda makes sense. I mean, it's not great, but he is new. Why would he claim as mafia if he was going to revive Marth?
[/quote]

Maybe he thought it'd be worth taking a risk and hoped that it would turn out exactly how it does right now?

[quote name='Kay' date='17 April 2012 - 02:00 AM' timestamp='1334620840' post='1941722']
It's also reasonably likely that roles like a Doctor would target someone else to WIFOM, and keeping them off of townies wouldn't be worth claiming a role like that and then being unable to prove it.
[/quote]

You could argue that way.

[quote name='Kay' date='17 April 2012 - 02:00 AM' timestamp='1334620840' post='1941722']
[i]Considering [/i]cases like that? Sure, great, it's good to do that. Trying to lynch someone based on them? That sounds pretty foolish to me.
[/quote]

Normally I would be inclined agree with you. But under the given circumstances, you guys did very little work throughout the rest of the cycle and I had like 15 hours to get anything done with the general activity for half that time being not exactly great. In that situation, I find it reasonable for me to talk with one of the few people that were actually there.

I will freely admit that it doesn't look too good, but as I said, I didn't have too many choices in that situation and I refuse to just sit here and do nothing, so I went with what I thought would be the best course of action for that time.

You will also notice that I was very much willing to concede the point and talk about alternatives [url=http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31619&view=findpost&p=1939409]here[/url] when activity started to pick up.

[quote name='Kay' date='17 April 2012 - 06:28 AM' timestamp='1334636915' post='1941980']
Anyway, I suggest that everyone order all players in the game, with the obvious exception of themselves, from least to most likely to be mafia. It would be useful if we do decide on popcorn claiming, and if not, it's still discussion.
[/quote]

Shinori
Manix
Strawman
JB
BBM
eclipse
Kay
Snike
Iris
Spike

Something like this I guess. There are a few that could switch, but it probably wouldn't be too helpful to have slashed entries for this.

I'll kick things off once a few more lists have been posted and I'm on the bottom of the majority of them, assuming not too many people disagree with the claiming process.

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