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Integrity

Rate the Unit, Day 33: Lalam and Elphin

37 posts in this topic

[u][b]Dat Rules[/b][/u]
- Ratings are assumed to be on Hard Mode.
- [b]Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted[/b]. If somebody else said what you want to already, quote them [b]explicitly[/b].
+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is encouraged, but no more. If you exercise your bias privileges, please do so explicitly.
- Numerical votes out of 10, or something proportional to it. Make it easy to calculate for my sake.
- Every ranking phase ends whenever I get out of bed, between 0700 and 0800 EST. Do the math for your timezone, Brits.
- I will insist you do not use the "Not X" reason on any character, where X is another unit. If you do, your vote will be thrown out.
- Characters should be rated for their performance on all possible routes (A/B / Sacae/Ilia) but should not be penalized for routes they physically cannot exist on (z.B Juno in Sacae).
- "Recruits X" or "takes you to X chapter" arguments are explicitly banned. C'mon, people, this shouldn't need to be a rule. That's not gameplay performance.
- I withhold the privilege to tell you your rating is bogus and demand you revise it if it breaks any of the above. I will not throw out votes anonymously, you [b]will[/b] be informed and given a chance to revise.

[url="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aio24jefkQdqdDQ1MWp5X1N1TGdWeVhqTkxrcEM2dlE#gid=1"]AVERAGES[/url]
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31442"]WENDY![/url]: 0.19
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=30996"]Bors[/url]: 1.14
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31404"]Barth[/url]: 2.07
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=30977"]Wolt[/url]: 2.16
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31080"]Ward[/url]: 2.61
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31239"]Dorothy[/url]: 3.17
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31381"]Lilina[/url]: 3.53
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31016"]Merlinus[/url]: 3.53
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=30921"]Roy[/url]: 3.54
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31561"]Geese[/url]: 3.70
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31301"]Treck[/url]: 4.66
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31421"]Oujay[/url]: 4.80
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31464"]Fir[/url]: 5.08
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31060"]Lot[/url]: 5.40
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31531"]Gonzales[/url]: 5.45
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31264"]Sue[/url]: 5.64
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31022"]Ellen[/url]: 5.73
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31149"]Lugh[/url]: 5.98
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31333"]Noah[/url]: 6.13
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31125"]Chad[/url]: 6.42
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31591"]Klein[/url]: 6.53
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31355"]Astohl[/url]: 7.17
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31218"]Saul[/url]: 7.18
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31500"]Shin[/url]: 7.42
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31280"]Zealot[/url]: 7.56
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31170"]Clarine[/url]: 7.78
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31634"]Tate[/url]: 7.89
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31045"]Dieck[/url]: 7.94
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31106"]Thany[/url]: 8.01
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=30960"]Alan[/url]: 8.52
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=30960"]Lance[/url]: 8.59
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=30943"]Marcus[/url]: 8.77
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31193"]Rutger[/url]: 9.61

fun fact: if Brad comes back and actually justifies his 10/10, we're going to have [b]tate > dieck[/b]

OKAY for today we're doing two units separately because I suspect people want to apply bias differently but the units are essentially the same. Have ats.

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[quote name='Anouleth' date='05 April 2012 - 08:00 AM' timestamp='1333627243' post='1925424']
10/10

because dancers
[/quote]

the sad thing is
that's a perfectly acceptable answer

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[img]http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu3v6lHZW41qm68p1o1_500.gif[/img]
[s]Roy, you should take advantage of this opportunity. [/s]

Lalum...dances. And giving a unit another turn in FE6's huge maps is always awesome.

10/10

EDIT: Oh shit, forgot Elphin. He also gets a 10/10, due to not dancing, but...barding. [img]http://serenesforest.net/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/gee_wiz_emoticon.gif[/img] Edited by ZM456

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9/10 for both

They let your units move again. Only thing that annoys me is that these two have no way to defend themselves if an enemy attacks them :/

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Your standard one-unit dancers, except Elphin just inspires your troops with the power of rock or whatever. Anyway, they can make one unit move again. That's great. They also replace another unit, are made of paper, and don't do anything else ever. How that's worth a 10/10 is pretty much beyond me. They don't even have the force multiplier advantage of FE4 dancers or Herons.

Elphin has better supports but Lalam has Echidna. Kind of balances out there. Both have Douglas as a fast support. HEH.

[b]7/10[/b]

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[quote name='Renall' date='05 April 2012 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1333631600' post='1925497']
They also replace another unit,
[/quote]
All units in this game replace another unit.
[quote]
are made of paper,
[/quote]
Fortunately they don't need to fight.
[quote]
and don't do anything else ever.
[/quote]
Why would you ever want to do anything other than dance?

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Of the two. Elphin is the better choice. But Lalum has a better support affinity. Despite that she clings to Roy so much, it's shocking that she supports slow with him. Another straight dancer. Upon which we have to kill Sylvia for the better one. :facepalm:

Elphin is better statwise. But Lalum has a better support affinity and recruits a better character, named Echidna. Of the two...

Lalum
9/10

Elphin
9.5/10 Edited by リンダ

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[quote name='リンダ' date='05 April 2012 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1333632278' post='1925508']
Of the two. Lalum is the better choice.
[/quote]

Followed immediately by Elphin > Lalam. What?

[quote name='リンダ' date='05 April 2012 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1333632278' post='1925508']
Elphin is better statwise.
[/quote]

Excuse me, but are you daft? Lalam is faster per-level than Elphin, which is good because either one's recourse to being attacked is to dodge. Elphin has a DEF lead that never exceeds 3 points and a RES lead that he doesn't even pick up until level 14 (do you realize how much dancing this is) thanks to Lalam's higher base. Oh, and Elphin has a 1 HP lead that eventually becomes [b]3[/b]. [i]Holy shit.[/i] So by one argument, they're statistically balanced and by the other argument Lalam is better because evade > * for Dancers and Lalam has higher Evade. You could almost make a case for RES meaning something, but Lalam has a higher RES for most (or all) of the game anyway so.

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Lalum has hilarious supports and Dances, Elphin has an interesting character and interesting supports and channels Mic Sounders the 13th.

10/10 for the pair of them. And their personal theme in my mind (even though you can't use the two together)

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82tzllnsQ38[/media]
[spoiler=Lalum]]
[img]http://i39.tinypic.com/jrs31x.jpg[/img]

[/spoiler]No Elphin picture unfortunately Edited by Onmi

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9/10 for them both, because even though they dance, you still gotta be careful with then both for a while (especially Elphin).

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[quote name='Integrity' date='05 April 2012 - 06:41 AM' timestamp='1333633302' post='1925525']
Excuse me, but are you daft? Lalam is faster per-level than Elphin, which is good because either one's recourse to being attacked is to dodge. Elphin has a DEF lead that never exceeds 3 points and a RES lead that he doesn't even pick up until level 14 (do you realize how much dancing this is) thanks to Lalam's higher base. Oh, and Elphin has a 1 HP lead that eventually becomes [b]3[/b]. [i]Holy shit.[/i] So by one argument, they're statistically balanced and by the other argument Lalam is better because evade > * for Dancers and Lalam has higher Evade. You could almost make a case for RES meaning something, but Lalam has a higher RES for most (or all) of the game anyway so.
[/quote]

Even though Elphin averages more in stats but dodge than Lalum does. But he gets those better stats slower. And he does not need a Robe like Lalum does. Because of her lower HP; and being at risk of getting 0HKOED until she at least gets to around LV11, or so. Recommeded to give her a Robe though. They are about equal having their differences. Lalum is only better to choose as to what u said already of her better dodge; and because of her recruiting a better character and having a better support affinity. Edited by リンダ

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[quote name='リンダ' date='05 April 2012 - 10:10 AM' timestamp='1333635043' post='1925555']
Even though Elphin averages more in stats but dodge than Lalum does. But he gets those better stats slower. And he does not need a Robe like Lalum does. Because of her lower HP; and being at risk of getting 0HKOED until she at least gets to around LV11, or so. Recommeded to give her a Robe though. They are about equal having their differences. Lalum is only better to choose as to what u said already of her better dodge; and because of her recruiting a better character and having a better support affinity.
[/quote]

Please read.

I'll do a more bigger rundown for you, since this is escaping you.

RAW STATS:
HP: Elphin wins by 1. Elphin's lead grows to 2 at level ~6, and 3 at level ~19. This does not constitute "Lalam needs a Robe but Elphin doesn't" unless you're actually bright enough to also count DEF, which I don't know if you are.
STR: Lalam wins forever. Not a single fuck was given that day.
SKL: Elphin wins forever. Not a single fuck was given that day.
SPD: Lalam wins forever having a 1 higher base and a 5% higher growth. Elphin ties her a 17, when he also naturally caps SPD. Note: 1 SPD > 1 HP.
LCK: Elphin has a higher base by 2 but a lower growth by 15%. Lalam spends the whole game closing the LCK gap. Note: 2 LCK = 1 SPD for the terms of evasion, but doesn't help against doubling.
DEF: Elphin's only real win is a +2 DEF base, plus a 5% higher growth. The gap doesn't become 3 DEF until level 17.
RES: Lalam has a +3 RES base, and Elphin has a +25% growth. Elphin ties Lalam for RES at 13, and eventually ends up at 20 with a point-and-a-half lead.
VERDICT: Frankly, who gives a fuck. Lalam is arguably barely better because 1 SPD > 2 LCK.

Lalam's dodgey parameters state that 15 AS doubles her at base. 14 doubles Elphin. Nothing in C12 is on that border. Some Mercs in C14x will double and kill Elphin where they wouldn't have doubled an equivalent Lalam. Point: Lalam, barely.
Lalam's defensive parameters state that 16 (physical) ATK 1HKOs her. 19 ATK 1HKOs Elphin. Exactly one enemy (the Longbowman) in C12 is on that border (with 16 ATK precisely) - everything else 1HKOs both of them. Everything in C14x is 20 ATK or higher, meaning an Elphin with at least +1 HP would elude 1HKO by ...two Archers on the map. Point: Elphin, by a pathetic margin.
Lalam's resistance parameters state that 18 (magical) ATK 1HKOs her. 16 ATK 1HKOs Elphin. The Shamans in C12 1HKO both. Everything in C14x 1HKOs both. Lalam has a meagre bonus against status sticks. Point: Lalam, meaninglessly.

I could hit a couple more chapters other than C12 and C14x, but I don't think it matters tbh. The point of this whole exercise is, statistically, [b]Elphin is not meaningfully not 1HKOd by things that Lalam isn't.[/b] Even if you give each a Robe, they're going to elude almost all of the same 1HKOs. The difference between them statistically is arguably <= 0.2, depending on if you think Lalam's dodging one extra attack in a hundred compares to Elphin not getting 1HKOd by one enemy on each map.

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Dances and shit.
[b]9.5[/b] for Elphin and [b]8.5[/b] for Lalum. Same raw score of 9.5 for both but
Lalum annoys the fuck out of me so a negative bias is in order Edited by Luminescent Blade

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[quote name='dondon151' date='05 April 2012 - 10:38 AM' timestamp='1333636693' post='1925600']
dancers getting attacked

lol get better at this game

anyway 8/10
[/quote]

"yes but dondon not everybody at this game is as amazing as you are"

I don't want to deal with that inevitable shitstorm if I just told Ayanami "why the fuck do you care about stats on dancers". I'd rather just prove that their stat differences are meaningless.

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10/10 dancing

[s]I'd say 11/10 for Lalum alone though[/s]

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[quote name='dondon151' date='05 April 2012 - 10:38 AM' timestamp='1333636693' post='1925600']
dancers getting attacked

lol get better at this game

anyway 8/10
[/quote]
Well... There is Bolting...

...But yeah, they're both pretty much useful. Their differences are minuscule to be honest.

9/10. Dancers give extra turn for units that are bad ass like Miledy and a second chance to kill a boss with Rutgerspeed. I find Renall's rating a little weird to be honest but... I guess it isn't as terrible as Ayanami's description to an extent. Edited by Colonel M

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9/10
because dancing and all that jazz.

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9/10 for both. They prance and all.

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Hey, hey, let's dance all day! Both of them are pretty similar and dancing is always welcome. Both of them are pretty delicate, but dancers aren't fighters!

8/10 for both of them.

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[quote name='Colonel M' date='05 April 2012 - 10:08 AM' timestamp='1333638492' post='1925635']
9/10. Dancers give extra turn for units that are bad ass like Miledy and a second chance to kill a boss with Rutgerspeed. I find Renall's rating a little weird to be honest but... I guess it isn't as terrible as Ayanami's description to an extent.
[/quote]
Sorry I don't fellate GBA-era dancers but they're not 10/10 material just because they happen to be dancers. At least I gave reasons, unlike the flood of "Dancer/10" votes that will invariably be counted anyway. I won't hold it against anybody; it's a rating thread with bias involved, so if you want to just pretend I voted an 8 with -1 bias do that.

Multi-unit dancers are worth 9+, I won't dispute that (and I think I gave Sylvia a 9 in the FE4 rating threads). Single-unit dancers who do nothing else (Ninian would be an example of a single-unit dancer who "does something else" in buffing, Lara a single-unit dancer who "does something else" in thieving and fighting for all that's worth) are not the best units in the game. They are good units. They are critical units for LTC and speed play. But they are not [b]that[/b] good. And I stand by that. You show me Sylvia/Leen or Reyson/Rafiel and I'll concede the point, because that's dancer utility + force multiplication, which is enormous. Lalam/Elphin are not going to be that good unless they have something else going for them in their own game, like rock-solid durability or something distinct. They don't. Therefore, they're good - but not perfect - units.

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9.5/10 for both because they're standard kickass refreshers.

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[color="#FF0000"]They are worth a deployment slot I reckon, especially since there aren't too many units that are worth deploying in the first place.

75%.

Edit: Score is for both.[/color] Edited by Raven

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9 lalum
8 elhpin

this is more counterbias than actual bias because I think differentiating between the two is dumb and I'm kind of sour Edited by ♈Aradia Megido

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