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Zeems

Rate the Unit, Day 27: Muarim

35 posts in this topic

[b]Dat Rules[/b] (stolen/borrowed from Integrity)
- Ratings are assumed to be on Hard Mode+Fixed Mode.
- [b]Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted[/b]. If somebody else said what you want to already, quote them [b]explicitly[/b].
+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is encouraged, but no more. If you exercise your bias privileges, please do so explicitly.
- Numerical votes out of 10, or something proportional to it. Make it easy to calculate for my sake.
- Every ranking phase ends whenever I get out of bed, between 0700 and 0800 EST. Do the math for your timezone, Brits.
- I will insist you do not use the "Not X" reason on any character, where X is another unit. If you do, your vote will be thrown out.
- "Recruits X" or "takes you to X chapter" arguments are explicitly banned. C'mon, people, this shouldn't need to be a rule. That's not gameplay performance.
- Assume that the character in question is being recruited.
- Similar to the "Recruits X" rule, do not use "he brings the Demi Band" or any other justification as an argument.
- BEXP is free to be used in any quantity on any character.
- Rating a unit too low because you think its overrated will make me throw away your vote without mercy public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif.
- I withhold the privilege to tell you your rating is bogus and demand you revise it if it breaks any of the above. I will not throw out votes anonymously, you [b]will[/b] be informed and given a chance to revise.

[b]Averages:
[/b][url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31706&st=0"]Rolf[/url]: 1.15
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=32018"]Sothe[/url]: 2.03
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31916&st=0"]Brom:[/url] 2.32
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31532&st=0"]Shinon[/url]: 3.00
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31851"]Volke[/url] : 4.82
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31662&st=0"]Ilyana[/url]: 4.98
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31596&st=0"]Soren[/url]: 5.15
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31501&st=0"]Rhys[/url]: 5.31
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31562&st=0"]Gatrie[/url]: 5.46
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31637&st=0"]Mia[/url]: 5.71
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31688&st=0"]Mist[/url]: 6.41
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31786&st=20"]Mordecai[/url]: 6.55
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=32237"]Makalov[/url]: 6.59
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=32296&st=0"]Tormod[/url]: 6.62
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31982&st=0"]Zihark[/url]: 6.65
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31753"]Lethe[/url]: 6.75
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31951&st=0"]Nephenee[/url]: 6.79
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=32271"]Stefan[/url]: 7.40
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=32094"]Astrid[/url]: 7.76
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31463&st=0"]Boyd[/url]: 8.29
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31405&st=0"]Ike[/url]: 8.57
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31443&st=0"]Oscar[/url]: 9.08
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31889&pid=1939382&st=0&#entry1939382"]Kieran[/url]: 9.23
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=32044&st=0"]Jill[/url]: 9.31
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31730"]Marcia[/url]: 9.36
[url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31422&st=0"]Titania[/url]: 9.91

Even after the huge discussion in Tormod's thread, only 17 votes were tallied. Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes. [img]http://serenesforest.net/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif[/img] Edited by ZM456

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Tormod beat Makalov. You've got to be shitting me. Anyway, Lethe if she had better bases and growths and came later. 6/10

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Pros:
+Good strength and speed, making him a good candidate for the demi band he comes with.
+Supports with Zihark, pretty much the best support option too for both units.
+Great for shoving mounts when transformed.

Cons:
-Laguz unit. He hits hard to start but either takes a hit to his offence to stay transformed all the time, or else he's dead weight when not transformed.
-No innate skill.
[s]-Defence bases are fine when transformed, but doesn't have the bulk to take hits untransformed.[/s] Not as tanky as Mordecai is in his starting chapters, but his growths at least keep him stable and he probably won't be doubled. He's okay.
-Not the worst transform gauge, but still takes time to fill.

He's a laguz, with all the good and bad it entails. If you're using Zihark, Muarim is his best pairing and vice versa. Total monster when transformed, but his transform gauge starts pretty low. If you give him the demi band, his offence is merely okay. I felt he missed a lot of OHKOs or ORKOs with the demi band that he would have gotten without it. You still get some amazing move out him when he's transformed, though, and he can shove mounts which is always nice.

I'll give him a [b]6/10[/b]. He starts off fine but since laguz weapons don't have ranks in this game, he can't really keep up with silver weapons. If you're using him for utility, you'd be better off with Mordecai. Edited by Samias

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[quote name='bottlegnomes' date='30 April 2012 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1335835363' post='1962402']
Tormod beat Makalov. You've got to be shitting me. Anyway, Lethe if she had better bases and growths and came later. 6/10
[/quote]
[i]zihark[/i] beat makalov

you sound surprised

5.5/10 he's a great unit, good shove user, has better offense than mordecai etc

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I don't like Muarim. There. I said it. Now I will be realistic.

Muarim simply isn't that great of a unit. He suffers the same problem all Laguz do, namely poor weapons. His claws only have 10 MT and if he goes in demi'ed that means he's pushing 37 MT MAX with no crit-bonuses or special effects of any sort. Now, I might be willing to forgive that if he had more availability, but he doesn't even join until chapter 16. Lethe and Mordi were around since 9/10 (depending on how you look at it) and, while not the best either, get a big boost in terms of availability. The one thing Muarim has on them is that his Zihark support is really good (Lethe's supports are meh at best and Mordi's are less stellar on the individual level for sure). On the plus side though, he is pretty powerful when he joins and doesn't start to fall behind for a while (I know people are going to harp, so I will add 'if ever at all') and he's not actually 'bad' even when outclassed. Just... below average. He's got some nice movement too... But even then I just can't overlook the join time, especially when I have two other Laguz in Lethe (who can shift off the bat and has a strong early-game) and Mordi (who may be slow, but ends up stronger).

5.5/10 on the whole, no personal bias. He's not bad... Just... A late joiner who doesn't really amaze and can start falling behind in the later-game.

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nice to see we're on the same wavelength snowy

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[quote]Tormod beat Makalov. You've got to be shitting me.[/quote]
[i]Rhys beat Soren![/i] Now you know my pain. Srsly...

Muarim. Raised Tormod and is all...Battle Cat.

Pros:
Demi band.
Good offense.
Decent bases.
Ok supports.
Not a bad base level

Cons:
Demi band is cool but gimps his stats.
Not as strong as Mordy.


Muarim is kinda cool to have around if you werent really training Mordy and Lethe. Hes not bad even if you did. But hes not like super awesome. Demi band helps him get to the murder right of the bat but he takes speed and defense (i think) penalties and thats a bit pants. It doesnt seem noticeable when he first joins, but a couple of chapters later, he feels those penalties. Still, he joins at like level 8 which is cool and hes got good speed. So Demi'd Muarim is both a pro and a con.

Overall, hes not a bad addition to the team but hes not helping really hold it.
5/10 6/10 bias because hes like, fucken Battle Cat from He-Man.

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He's okay. Helpfully, he has decent bases; his SPD in particular is nice in comparison to fellow tiger Mordecai. He comes with a Demi Band, so obviously there is an immediate dilemma with him; keep it on him and have him be mostly average at all times, or have him face the usual laguz problem instead; be pretty great for a few turns and then total dead weight for a few more.

He's not bad, but the thing is, if you wanted to use a laguz and stand up to their ups and downs, odds are you've already been training Lethe or Mordecai. While his Demi Band means he doesn't have to face the class' sometimes-damaging ebb and flow, it also means, as I stated before, he'll be barely clawing his way out of the moniker of "meh"; as a result, there are better units you could be using than him in that case, particularly with the low-MT claws and fangs of laguz. He's certainly usable, but certainly imperfect.

[b]6/10[/b]

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Are you guys smoking crack? Muarim's [b]untransformed base stats[/b] are equal to a 20/1 Kieran. He's awesome with the Demi Band, he's awesome without it, and while he's not as good a tank as Mordecai he's still pretty hoss in that department. Not as good a support list as Mordy though, but he's a lot faster. Did I mention he can also shove decently and has good movement? Because he does, albeit his shove is no Smite.

Really, lack of range is his only appreciable weakness. "But gauge!" Use the Demi Band, or don't on the maps where his natural transform rate puts him in gear right around the time the action starts anyway. Yeah, there's better units, but 5.5 for a unit that takes no effort to make strong? What? You assholes give BEXP-sucking units 9s and 10s but you'd bag on Muarim and his 70% STR growth for taking [b]nothing[/b]?

[b]8/10[/b], I'm actually rating him a 7 but throwing in a bias point because I feel for the dude, and also because he is green. Why are tigers blue and green? Is Lethe being normal cat-colored just a coincidence?

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[quote name='Renall' date='01 May 2012 - 08:33 AM' timestamp='1335879187' post='1962917']
Are you guys smoking crack? Muarim's [b]untransformed base stats[/b] are equal to a 20/1 Kieran. He's awesome with the Demi Band, he's awesome without it, and while he's not as good a tank as Mordecai he's still pretty hoss in that department. Not as good a support list as Mordy though, but he's a lot faster. Did I mention he can also shove decently and has good movement? Because he does, albeit his shove is no Smite.

Really, lack of range is his only appreciable weakness. "But gauge!" Use the Demi Band, or don't on the maps where his natural transform rate puts him in gear right around the time the action starts anyway. Yeah, there's better units, but 5.5 for a unit that takes no effort to make strong? What? You assholes give BEXP-sucking units 9s and 10s but you'd bag on Muarim and his 70% STR growth for taking [b]nothing[/b]?

[b]8/10[/b], I'm actually rating him a 7 but throwing in a bias point because I feel for the dude, and also because he is green. Why are tigers blue and green? Is Lethe being normal cat-colored just a coincidence?
[/quote]

It's not just about base stats though. Muarim and all other Laguz have one key flaw that really holds them back. Their weapon never upgrades. Muarim is basically stuck wielding a D-class weapon throughout the entire time he is present, which is only half the game.

And no, I'm pretty sure the reason why Muarim and Mordi are strange colors is to allow for easier distinctions when looking at their units from above.

Edit: A base-level Muarim without a demi has 32 MT. A 20/1 Kieran without supports but a forged steel weapon has 33 MT. The forge may be able to be acquired once a chapter, but it should last at least two even with exclusive use and Muarim would have to work around his gauge. Edited by Snowy_One

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Demi-Band Maurim has 28 Atk too. While not exactly "pitiful" thanks to his Str lead, it can deteriorate once Silver forges come into play.

Not that it justifies his 5.5/10 and Tormod's 7.5/10. It should really be reversed IMO, but I digress.

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He gets outpaced late by the best units in the game, nobody's disputing that (that's why guys like Titania, Kieran, Marcia, and Jill score 9s and 10s), but it didn't cost you anything to use him. Outside Titania and other Laguz like Lethe/Mordecai, not a whole lot of units can say they're competitive for the midgame and into the later parts without needing to be given any resources whatsoever. Yes, Marcia and Jill pay off their investment, which justifies their high scores. But not even needing [b]that[/b] seems like it ought to count for more than a 5.5.

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6.5/10. Pretty awesome, but suffers from the same flaw that all laguz do - their weapon doesn't upgrade, which causes them to fall behind when silver weapons show up.

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[quote name='Lord Raven' date='30 April 2012 - 09:36 PM' timestamp='1335839776' post='1962470']
[i]zihark[/i] beat makalov

you sound surprised
[/quote]

That's a travesty, too, but at least Zihark has availability and not needing a bexp dump to contribute on Mak, even if with those Mak is significantly better.

It's also because of ratings like yours that he did. You never did actually explain it, so why exactly does giving Tormod a massive bexp dump to make him a competent unit make him so much better than giving Mak a less big dump to make him a great unit?

[quote name='Florina' date='30 April 2012 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1335844302' post='1962539']
[i]Rhys beat Soren![/i] Now you know my pain. Srsly...
[/quote]

That doesn't actually surprise me all that much :unsure: But yeah, it is a shame. Edited by bottlegnomes

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A lot of people on this board have terrible opinions so should you really be surprised?

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[quote name='Colonel M' date='01 May 2012 - 12:07 PM' timestamp='1335888459' post='1962995']
Demi-Band Maurim has 28 Atk too. While not exactly "pitiful" thanks to his Str lead, it can deteriorate once Silver forges come into play.

Not that it justifies his 5.5/10 and Tormod's 7.5/10. It should really be reversed IMO, but I digress.
[/quote]i repeat what i said in IRC, colonel M:

i'm rating these guys based on how likely I am to use them in efficiency. more likely to use = higher rating, as a general trend. i am much more likely to use tormod because of how useful his move is over someone like muarim who's ultimate niche is good offense for a couple chapters and being a damn good shove user


[quote name='bottlegnomes' date='01 May 2012 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1335890642' post='1963056']
It's also because of ratings like yours that he did. You never did actually explain it, so why exactly does giving Tormod a massive bexp dump to make him a competent unit make him so much better than giving Mak a less big dump to make him a great unit?[/quote]
i'm sure i was thorough with my [i]paragraph[/i], and i even made an efficiency run where tormod saved me a ton of random turns and made some other strategies a hell of a lot more reliable. i have sources and personal experience based on my own efficiency runthrough, where [i]Tormod had his average stats + spirit dust and a mage band[/i], and he was damn well worth the BEXP dump (not that I "dumped" shit on him, it was gradual). on top of how my ratings for characters in this thread are different than how my arguments for tier lists work; no way in hell would i ever argue tormod over makalov, but i would definitely rate tormod higher because of the reasons i've mentioned

why are you people so mad

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Voting is over. Tallying!

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[quote name='Dark Sage' date='01 May 2012 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1335907073' post='1963316']
A lot of people on this board have terrible opinions so should you really be surprised?
[/quote]

True :dry:

[quote name='Lord Raven' date='01 May 2012 - 07:20 PM' timestamp='1335918049' post='1963648']
i repeat what i said in IRC, colonel M:

i'm rating these guys based on how likely I am to use them in efficiency. more likely to use = higher rating, as a general trend. i am much more likely to use tormod because of how useful his move is over someone like muarim who's ultimate niche is good offense for a couple chapters and being a damn good shove user
[/quote]

So good move, decent combat, and some utility a bunch of resources is better than good move and combat with next to no resources?

[quote]
i'm sure i was thorough with my [i]paragraph[/i], and i even made an efficiency run where tormod saved me a ton of random turns and made some other strategies a hell of a lot more reliable. i have sources and personal experience based on my own efficiency runthrough, where [b][i]Tormod had his average stats + spirit dust and a mage band[/i][/b], and he was damn well worth the BEXP dump (not that I "dumped" shit on him, it was gradual). on top of how my ratings for characters in this thread are different than how my arguments for tier lists work; no way in hell would i ever argue tormod over makalov, but i would definitely rate tormod higher because of the reasons i've mentioned

why are you people so mad
[/quote]

:You may be sure, but I don't think anyone else is. I've had runs where having yet another paladin saved me turns. @bold: so giving him a bunch of resources other people would like makes him better than someone who takes one not even limited resouce (KW)?

I at least am not so much mad as that I find your double standard ridiculous.

On a completely random note, ZM, would you mind me ganking the scores for this once the whole cycle is done to add to my FE9 guide? I have a whole series I did a while ago on GFAQs, but the more scores the better.

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[quote name='bottlegnomes' date='01 May 2012 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1335920450' post='1963733']
On a completely random note, ZM, would you mind me ganking the scores for this once the whole cycle is done to add to my FE9 guide? I have a whole series I did a while ago on GFAQs, but the more scores the better.
[/quote]

Sure thing. Just remind me, alright?

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[quote name='bottlegnomes' date='01 May 2012 - 09:00 PM' timestamp='1335920450' post='1963733']So good move, decent combat, and some utility a bunch of resources is better than good move and combat with next to no resources?[/quote]yes, because everyone and their fucking mother in this game has good combat with no/little resources and they exist for longer than muarim

there is nobody who is an 8-move magic user that exists before or after tormod, or anywhere in tormod's existence. absolutely nobody. there are 3 other competitors for siege tomes that have a lot less move and less viable support options. and the best of all, BEXP is abundant enough in this game that you can raise a team of 12 easily enough



[quote]You may be sure, but I don't think anyone else is. I've had runs where having yet another paladin saved me turns. @bold: so giving him a bunch of resources other people would like makes him better than someone who takes one not even limited resouce (KW)?[/quote]many runs would love a siege tome user to hit a boss because your units just don't have the stats to kill them, especially a solo-flier. with the existence of a solo-flier, i'm less likely to want to use more paladins because they wont' catch up and they don't have 3-10 range

just because other people like it doesnt mean it isn't in abundance.

[quote]I at least am not so much mad as that I find your double standard ridiculous.[/quote]what double standard? i stated what i rate based on, and [i]yes i even check my previous ratings[/i] because i compare units to one another. tormod's 8.0/10 is fairly consistent with my criteria




stop now before you fall into the trap of thinking i'm arguing tormod > muarim Edited by Lord Raven

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[quote name='ZM456' date='01 May 2012 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1335920633' post='1963748']
Sure thing. Just remind me, alright?
[/quote]

Will do. Thanks :lol:

[quote name='Lord Raven' date='01 May 2012 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1335921161' post='1963774']
yes, because everyone and their fucking mother in this game has good combat with no/little resources and they exist for longer than muarim
[/quote]

That's just not true. About half the cast has worse availability, combat, or move and requires more resources than Muarim.

[quote]
there is nobody who is an 8-move magic user that exists before or after tormod, or anywhere in tormod's existence. absolutely nobody. there are 3 other competitors for siege tomes that have a lot less move and less viable support options. and the best of all, BEXP is abundant enough in this game that you can raise a team of 12 easily enough
[/quote]

Mist can use the magic swords quite easily, as can Tanith, especially with the mage band and a spirit dust. There's two 9 move units who can essentially use magic. Mia and Lucia with those resources and the boots are also quite similar. As for siege tomes, that is true, but it's a good thing there's more than one competent flier in the game.

[quote]
many runs would love a siege tome user to hit a boss because your units just don't have the stats to kill them, especially a solo-flier. with the existence of a solo-flier, i'm less likely to want to use more paladins because they wont' catch up and they don't have 3-10 range
[/quote]

As I said, good thing there's more than one good flier in the game.

[quote]
just because other people like it doesnt mean it isn't in abundance.
[/quote]

Doesn't change the fact that he takes it away from potentially better units.

[quote]
what double standard? i stated what i rate based on, and [i]yes i even check my previous ratings[/i] because i compare units to one another. tormod's 8.0/10 is fairly consistent with my criteria
stop now before you fall into the trap of thinking i'm arguing tormod > muarim
[/quote]

So Muarim > Tormod, but Tormod's score > Muarim's score? That double standard.

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[quote]That's just not true. About half the cast has worse availability, combat, or move and requires more resources than Muarim.[/quote]Hyperbole, obviously, but the fact that you say "half" is not really doing much but prove my point

[quote]Mist can use the magic swords quite easily, as can Tanith, especially with the mage band and a spirit dust. There's two 9 move units who can essentially use magic. Mia and Lucia with those resources and the boots are also quite similar. As for siege tomes, that is true, but it's a good thing there's more than one competent flier in the game.[/quote]You mean Mist with her D base swords? You mean Tanith with her frailty and bow weakness? ok

Tanith needs to be flying for around 10 turns to compensate for not having a 3-10 range tome. She also doesn't have Fire affinity, nor nearly as much magic or potential to grow with a mage band. Mia and Lucia are the same thing with less move! And a *lot* less magic! Most maps aren't even 10 turns long, despite being huge maps.

[quote]As I said, good thing there's more than one good flier in the game.[/quote]the solo-flier (defined as the one with boots) is the one that tormod will be helping, because the ones without boots won't be able to catch up as easily

[quote]Doesn't change the fact that he takes it away from potentially better units.[/quote]name a couple that fill a unique niche as well as tormod does

read: almost none of them

[quote]So Muarim > Tormod, but Tormod's score > Muarim's score? That double standard.[/quote]double standard? i'm using two different standards. muarim > tormod by tier list arguments, but tormod > muarim by the argument that i'd much rather use tormod because he has a more unique niche to fill, which i feel i can emphasize in an RTU thread

tier lists aren't usage tiers after all, and by those standards my ratings are a lot different than what i post in these threads. after all, why wouldn't applying a different standard to what constitutes "goodness" to achieve the same end result even hurt? otherwise it's circle-jerking around the tier list. i justified my argument well enough, and that's all i really care about, you've no right to say i'm spewing shit

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1) please do not say you mentioned Mia and Lucia should use the Sonic Sword.

2) Tanith isn't that frail. The bow weakness is a minor annoyance, but it's something that can be worked around. Also, Flight > foot movement. All day every day.

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[quote name='Lord Raven' date='01 May 2012 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1335925336' post='1963922']
Hyperbole, obviously, but the fact that you say "half" is not really doing much but prove my point
[/quote]

Being better than half the cast with no resources is still better than being better than 51% of the cast with a bunch of resources. Do you disagree?

[quote]
You mean Mist with her D base swords? You mean Tanith with her frailty and bow weakness? ok
[/quote]

Arms scrolls do exist. And guess what? There are two of them. I can count the number of unit besides Mist who might want one on one hand. Yeah, Tanith's [i]real[/i] frail.

[quote]
Tanith needs to be flying for around 10 turns to compensate for not having a 3-10 range tome. She also doesn't have Fire affinity, nor nearly as much magic or potential to grow with a mage band. Mia and Lucia are the same thing with less move! And a *lot* less magic! Most maps aren't even 10 turns long, despite being huge maps.
[/quote]

Neglecting terrain, yes. But most of the maps where your boots!flier is really getting ahead of other units have plenty of terrain, which is going to hurt Tormod more than the other fliers.

[quote]
the solo-flier (defined as the one with boots) is the one that tormod will be helping, because the ones without boots won't be able to catch up as easily
[/quote]

Forgot about boots, fair enough.

[quote]
name a couple that fill a unique niche as well as tormod does
[/quote]

What niche? Helping against one kinda tough enemy on a few maps? How about the stuff Tormod's not very good at? Like combat outside bombing a boss with a siege tome?

[quote]
read: almost none of them
[/quote]

Good thing a lot of other units do everything else a lot better.

[quote]
double standard? i'm using two different standards. muarim > tormod by tier list arguments, but tormod > muarim by the argument that i'd much rather use tormod because he has a more unique niche to fill, which i feel i can emphasize in an RTU thread
[/quote]

So having a minorly useful nice makes him better than other characters who don't have a "niche" but are better in every other aspect? Nino has a bit of a niche in that she's a low level unit who joins really late and has very good bases for her level, making her somewhat helpful for meeting exp rank. Does that mean she's good, say better than say Kent since his niche is filled by more units?

[quote]
tier lists aren't usage tiers after all, and by those standards my ratings are a lot different than what i post in these threads. after all, why wouldn't applying a different standard to what constitutes "goodness" to achieve the same end result even hurt? otherwise it's circle-jerking around the tier list. i justified my argument well enough, and that's all i really care about, you've no right to say i'm spewing shit
[/quote]

Whatever floats your boat.

If it really isn't a double standard, Calill should get an 8 as well, which I somehow doubt is going to happen.

[quote name='Colonel M' date='01 May 2012 - 09:32 PM' timestamp='1335925933' post='1963940']
1) please do not say you mentioned Mia and Lucia should use the Sonic Sword.
[/quote]

:D: Yeah they're pretty terrible with them, but it was to prove a point.

[quote]
2) Tanith isn't that frail. The bow weakness is a minor annoyance, but it's something that can be worked around. Also, Flight > foot movement. All day every day.
[/quote]

This. Edited by bottlegnomes

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[quote name='bottlegnomes' date='01 May 2012 - 11:03 PM' timestamp='1335927789' post='1963992']
Being better than half the cast with no resources is still better than being better than 51% of the cast with a bunch of resources. Do you disagree?[/quote]a bunch of resources out of resources that are in abundance

[quote]Arms scrolls do exist. And guess what? There are two of them. I can count the number of unit besides Mist who might want one on one hand.[/quote]his name is tormod

[quote]Yeah, Tanith's [i]real[/i] frail.[/quote]cool i'm wrong

[quote]Neglecting terrain, yes. But most of the maps where your boots!flier is really getting ahead of other units have plenty of terrain, which is going to hurt Tormod more than the other fliers.[/quote]no, it's going to help tormod because the other fliers won't have as big a chance to get into range as tormod is with a siege tome, not for another 10 turns

[quote]What niche? Helping against one kinda tough enemy on a few maps? How about the stuff Tormod's not very good at? Like combat outside bombing a boss with a siege tome?[/quote]yes helping against a boss is A Pretty Big Deal, ever heard of this unit called rutger

tormod's combat is fine, he gets 3HKO'd in a game where you are rarely ganged up on by more than 2 enemies

[quote]So having a minorly useful nice makes him better than other characters who don't have a "niche" but are better in every other aspect? Nino has a bit of a niche in that she's a low level unit who joins really late and has very good bases for her level, making her somewhat helpful for meeting exp rank. Does that mean she's good, say better than say Kent since his niche is filled by more units?[/quote]no, it makes me more likely to use him, hence higher rating

nino's minorly useful niche isn't even useful or convenient because she tinks everything after her join chapter in hhm lol

[quote]If it really isn't a double standard, Calill should get an 8 as well, which I somehow doubt is going to happen.[/quote]yes because she has 6 move

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