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Rate the Unit, Day 37: Lucia

68 posts in this topic

Okay then. Assuming Aki's numbers for the enemies are accurate...

Level 13 Haar W/Brave axe: MT: 32, AS: 17

Level 14 Lucia W/ Forged Silver: MT: 34, AS: 25

...

Actually, I see your point now. Against foes that both Lucia and Haar double Haar will win and against foes that Haar doesn't double, the Brave Axe will allow him to land two attacks, and against the foes Lucia doesn't double he will get in two attacks. So, with the brave axe, he wins. Better defenses, joining time, and movement... Fine. I still maintain that the brave axe is a irreplacable weapon and shouldn't be given to Haar and if it is given to him it will break before long, meaning forges are needed.

Level 13 Haar W/ Forged Silver Axe: MT 43: AS: 17

Level 14 Lucia W/ Forged Silver: MT: 34, AS: 25

Seems to me the main factor will be doubling. When Haar doubles, he will win. When Lucia doubles and he doesn't, she will win.

Random Knight: 34 HP, 20 Def, 9 Res, 5 AS

Haar doubles, he wins... Let's just skip the ones he's fast enough to double and summarize it at the end.

Toughest Swordmaster: 36 HP, 11 Def, 22 AS

Neither double, but I'm not sure I want to call this a 'Haar win' as he will have trouble hitting. If he does, he wins though.

Cat: 44 HP, 18 Def, 9 Res, 19 AS

Lucia doubles for 16/32 damage, Haar hits once for 25 damage.

Toughest Tiger: 51 HP, 23 Def, 10 Res, 20 AS

Lecua doubles for 11/22 damage. Haar hits once for 20 damage,

Random Sniper: 33 HP, 13 Def, 14 AS

Lucia 1RKO's, Haar deals 30 damage, meaning he needs a brave weapon.

Fastest Halberdier: 40 HP, 14 Def, 9 Res, 15 AS

Lucia fails to 1RKO and deals 38 damage, Haar deals 30 damage.

Hawk: 42 HP, 16 Def, 9 Res, 18 AS

Lucia doubles for 36 damage. Haar strikes for 27 damage. Clear win for Lucia.

...

That... was not as decisive as I thought it was going to be. Lucia only managed to 1RKO one foe Haar couldn't and, hawk aside, most of her damage leads were minor. While I would say she still 'does' have a better offense (she dealt more damage after all), I appear to have vastly underestimated how much damage Haar dealt in a single strike and overestimated how much she dealt making the 'win' insignificant 90% of the time or so.

I was wrong. Haar > Lucia and she is not redeemable. It's too late to alter my vote now though.

Edit: I did not have Lucia use the Brave or magical weapons because it would be hypocritical of me to claim that Haar can't/shouldn't be taking the Brave Axe as it is a unique weapon and then turning around and giving Lucia a brave sword/magical weapon. Edited by Snowy_One

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You could extract the data you want anytime you want from the HM enemy stats sticky thread, you know.

Also, one thing we could take into account when discussing Haar vs. Lucia in terms of offence is that when neither is able to ORKO, Lucia could gamble it out with a Killing Edge and have decent chances of getting the kill. She can also be given Astra for extra chances, and the competition for Occult scrolls isn't too stiff in this game, I would argue.

Still, Lucia doesn't fly, counter at all ranges with an easily replaceable and forgeable weapon, and can't take hits that she fails to avoid, but I feel like we could give extra credit to her offence just to be fair.

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So this whole fiasco is settled now, right? Edited by bottlegnomes

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Espinoza is right, Lucia > Haar for the reasons he mentioned.

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But then you're giving Lucia a bunch of resources that could go to other units. To make it fair, you have to give Haar similar resources. Haar could take a killing axe or a speedwings for his problems. Also, he's not even saying Lucia>Haar. He's just saying she can do some stuff besides forged silvers to mitigate her poor offense.

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But Haar doesn't benefit from the resources Lucia benefits from. Lucia's mastery skill is highly useful, Haar's is not (since it's not doing triple damage here). Lucia has innate crit and doubles more often to make her chances of critting significant, while Haar equipping a Killer Axe means he will most likely do less damage than if he were using the Brave Axe. Finally, Speedwings is contested by more units than an Occult scroll is. Didn't everybody on the forum agree that Sol is the only worthwhile mastery skill and at the same time state that healing is unnecessary in this game? If Lucia is used, she might as well be taught Astra, giving her even higher chances to ORKO the enemies she easily doubles.

I think we shouldn't forget the fact Lucia has less trouble connecting with her attacks, either.

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[quote name='OrangeCrush' date='12 May 2012 - 06:05 PM' timestamp='1336863916' post='1977628']
hyuck hyuck hyuck i am a troll
[/quote]
that's great, now go away

oh weren't you the guy that got mad because you were banned from smogon

[i]hmm i wonder why that is[/i] Edited by dondon151

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[quote name='Espinosa' date='12 May 2012 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1336866882' post='1977697']
Lucia's mastery skill is highly useful,[/quote]
pretty sure lucia's mastery skill means that 1/4 of your coveted silver sword forge is gone

[quote name='Espinosa' date='12 May 2012 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1336866882' post='1977697']
while Haar equipping a Killer Axe means he will most likely do less damage than if he were using the Brave Axe.[/quote]
but haar never wants to equip a killer axe so your contention is completely useless

[quote name='Espinosa' date='12 May 2012 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1336866882' post='1977697']
Finally, Speedwings is contested by more units than an Occult scroll is.[/quote]
it's contested by like 2 other units, neither of which are great at combat; furthermore an occult skill only increases lucia's chance of doing higher damage but is far from guaranteeing it - astra is only skl/2% activation, which means that lucia's chance of ORKO (if the ORKO is within reach in the first place) is only augmented by less than 11 percentage points at any given time

[quote name='Espinosa' date='12 May 2012 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1336866882' post='1977697']
I think we shouldn't forget the fact Lucia has less trouble connecting with her attacks, either.
[/quote]
hello, i'm muston and i can forge hit on weapons (remember that haar doubles plenty of enemies without a brave weapon)

EDIT: ah, crap, forgot to merge my posts. oops Edited by dondon151

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Not rating anything but isn't Astra in this game strictly worse than a critical by half of your normal single-hit damage output and 4 weapon uses Edited by Luminescent Blade

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[quote name='Luminescent Blade' date='12 May 2012 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1336867749' post='1977711']
Not rating anything but isn't Astra in this game strictly worse than a critical by .5 atk and 4 weapon uses
[/quote]

Lucia's rating is over anyway. And yep, I believe so.

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Don't forget that Haar has the Brave Lance (I did mention it in Swordmaster scenario), which actually has +1 Mt / +5 Hit. Unless Haar goes into shitty bio phase, I doubt his Hit is that low. With WTA, Haar has 134 Hit to the Swordmaster's 47 (this is assuming my Haar levels). Haar at neutral has 87% displayed. I guess negative bio situations can knock it to 67% I think (well you gain +10 Avoid and -10 Hit I guess at worst), but that's assuming worst on Haar and Best on the Swordmaster.

I would also think that Aether / Sol is pretty fucking useful. Even if it is seen as "unnecessary" due to it falling to chance, you can't ignore a free heal whatsoever. It limits Mist needing to heal another unit possibly. Edited by Colonel M

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[b]Someone correct me if I've screwed up the numbers.[/b] [url="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=32543&view=findpost&p=1977252"]Enemy stats from here.[/url]

Base Lucia has 15 STR and 21 SKL. That means she's got a whopping 24 ATK and 55% crit with a Killing Edge and a 10% chance to proc Astra. Given the situations that were outlined in the previous link, and replacing Silver Beatstick with Killing Edge:

- She will fail ORKO the strongest cats, even with double criticals (18 x 2 < 42) or an Astra (6 x 5 < 42). To ORKO that cat, she'd need to get Astra (10%), and get a crit (55%).

- She'll finally be able to ORKO the Ravens, but it'll require one of two 53% crits to hit. Astra will also kill, but that's still 10%.

- She'll also ORKO the Warriors, if you're willing to flip coins (exact 50% crit chance here). However, she can't ORKO the 13 DEF one unless Astra kicks in or she crits twice.

- She requires a crit, or she'll end up doing an amazing 13 damage to the Swordmaster.

- Thanks to WTD, Lucia cannot ORKO the Halberdier without Astra or double crits.

Single crits are iffy enough; requiring Astra or double crits is not to Lucia's advantage.

EDIT: I realized I screwed up the cat calcs, but I don't have time to fix them fully ATM. Edited by eclipse

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[quote name='Luminescent Blade' date='12 May 2012 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1336867749' post='1977711']
Not rating anything but isn't Astra in this game strictly worse than a critical by half of your normal single-hit damage output and 4 weapon uses
[/quote]
No. Astra activates independently of crits. So if you crit once during an Astra, you deal 3.5x damage. If you crit more than once during an Astra (likely with the Killer Edge or Vague Katti), you deal at least 4.5x normal damage. Also, despite the animation, weapon uses are not expended beyond what it takes to kill your foe, so claims that Astra kills weapon durability are overstated. Astra is a decent enough skill. It's low activation rate makes it subpar, but occasionally useful.

The problem with Lucia and the Killer Edge is her poor Atk. It doesn't give her good odds to ORKO Generals, Cats, or Tigers. The other enemies are generally within her power to 2HKO with a Silver Sword forge (and perhaps some Bexp). If Lucia can 4HKO with the Killer Edge, she can 2HKO with a Silver Sword forge, so there's really no point to it.

Still, Lucia does have a smallish chance to crit with the Silver Sword forge, which is pretty cool, I guess. It gives her a slight edge against laguz that Haar can't double.

I still don't see how one could conclude that Lucia has better combat than Haar. Let's not forget that Haar can ORKO Sages, Snipers, Warriors, and Halberdiers at 1-2 range! Lucia does have a chance to pull off some decent 1-2 range combat with the Runesword - but only after C26 and only for 7-8 rounds of combat. Lucia is also weighed down some by the Runesword, which definitely jeopardizes her ability to double Swordmasters and might prevent her from doubling the fastest laguz, too.

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I thought they didn't stack in Tellius

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[quote name='Luminescent Blade' date='12 May 2012 - 09:23 PM' timestamp='1336872213' post='1977802']
I thought they didn't stack in Tellius
[/quote]
They do in FE9, they don't in FE10.

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Yeah, the reason why Lucia misses some ORKOes in Chapter 25 with Brave Sword (well, being able to quad Cats) is because she loses 1 AS from the weapon. Kind of funny, actually.

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Astra is a poor choice for a SM anyways since any equal number of criticals with normal attacks would deal far more and, if Astra fails to critical on it's opening move, you're doomed to expend more weapon uses than you would have normally (and even if it does critical, unless the foe would die in that 1.5 attack, you have to waste another strike. A similar critical without Astra would deal more damage).

And the KE? Seriously? It has only 9 MT. There are other SM who get within 1 attack of that without even wielding a weapon. I mean, I like criticals and I think the killers can have a use, even that late in the game, but even if they were super-special-chocolately-awesome at that use, Lucia's not the one to hold them (Zihark/Mia/Stefan are).

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