Does this game have any "bad" units?

[Carreau Diamond]

Sometimes I wonder what IS is thinking when they include terrible units like FE6 Sophia, FE 10 Lyre, Leonardo, etc etc.

So I was wondering if there are any units of similar terribleness in this game. Please say no );

[Othin]

With grinding, every character is very usable. Donny stands out as being incredibly hard to use without grinding because of his abysmal bases and needing to reach LV10 twice to promote, starting over with a new weapon the second time, but on the other hand, his growths are mind-bogglingly high. Training him in the main story isn't worth the payoff, but he's fun to use regardless.

[Dark Sage]

Henry seems like he sucks balls.

Also Richt.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Tyrant Sage

[Dark Nocturne]

it depends, some units have low defense and can be hard to keep alive, like ronku and sumia, but again they are useable

[Ein]

We'll find out when people start drafting.

I dread the day when that begins...

[CrashGordon94]

With grinding, every character is very usable. Donny stands out as being incredibly hard to use without grinding because of his abysmal bases and needing to reach LV10 twice to promote, starting over with a new weapon the second time, but on the other hand, his growths are mind-bogglingly high. Training him in the main story isn't worth the payoff, but he's fun to use regardless.

You mean "the first time", right? Because it sounds like you're talking about Villager -> Unpromoted Thing -> Promoted Thing.

[Othin]

You mean "the first time", right? Because it sounds like you're talking about Villager -> Unpromoted Thing -> Promoted Thing.

Depending on how you look at it. I was using "the second time" to refer to the start of the second unpromoted class.

[Darros]

I remember hearing, a while ago, that Mariabel is pretty bad.

[FrostyFireMage]

Henry seems like he sucks balls.

Also Richt.

The fact that Henry can promote to Sorceror automatically prevents him from sucking balls.

And Richt can actually take a few hits, unlike Miriel.

[Dark Sage]

The fact that Henry can promote to Sorceror automatically prevents him from sucking balls.

Doesn't have the speed to be a good Sorcerer.

For fuck's sake, the guy has the same base speed as Krom (granted on NM, but his speed is only 10 on Lunatic) but joins a whopping 13 or so chapters after the fact. 8 speed doubles jack shit. There's shit that doubles him which totally undermines and ruins any good defense he has.

And Richt can actually take a few hits, unlike Miriel.

Based on videos I saw, Miriel is like, 2-3HKO'd on like NM and I'm pretty sure both get 1HKO'd on Lunatic (and if Richt isn't, he's doubled more often). A 4/0 Miriel has around 20 HP, 3.75 defense compared to base Richt's 20 HP, 6 defense. If you get Miriel to 5/0, then Miriel has 21 HP and 4 defense, which is barely worse than Richt. And Richt's reclass options are complete shit (Cavalier and Archer lol) while Miriel can access Dark Mage and negate any durability advantage Richt has with Nosferatu. Plus Miriel kicks Richt's ass in offensive growths as well as speed base and can negate any magic lead Richt has with a few levels. Her growths are also better for the most part.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Tyrant Sage

[Titamon]

Nono looks pretty bad too

[Sasori]

Its a bit hard to say since the growth rates have been giving a boost. I heard a long time agon on gamefaqs that Liz wasn't that good, but I can't really remember why.

Is Richt really bad or just outclassed by Miriel?

[Othin]

Hey, I just so happen to have my Lunatic+ file on Ch5.

Let's see, Richt joins with 20 HP, 5 Spd, 6 Def, and 3 Res. Enemy Barbarians have 28 Mt and 11 Spd, solidly OHKOing him and doubling him. The Myrmidons have 23 Mt and 17 Spd, not OHKOing him, but cleanly one-rounding him regardless. Even the Mage one-rounds him with 19 Mt and 10 Spd, although he only needs +1 Spd to avoid being doubled and survive. That's easy enough to get with a Double, but he's not getting away with that against the Barbarians or Myrmidons. And there's only one Mage on the map.

The Dark Mages have 18 Mt and 7 Spd, so he can survive a round against them no matter what. On the other hand, they all have Nosferatu, so they'll be healing 7 HP from hitting him, and he only does 8 damage to them. Finally, the Dracoknights have the same 28 Mt and 11 Spd as the Barbarians, and also the possibility of getting the Strength +2 skill. The boss won't have that skill, but he has 29 Mt and 12 Spd, and has 1-2 range unlike the others due to having a Tomahawk instead of a Steel Axe.

Neither Richt nor Miriel are surviving anything on Lunatic.

As for Henry, the only things that don't double him in his joining chapter on Lunatic are the Fighters, and he's not surviving two hits. Granted, he only needs +1 Spd or +3 Def to avoid being one-rounded by Archers, which is reasonable, but it's still a pain.

Don't get me wrong: these characters are useful. Ranged attacks are valuable in Lunatic and even moreso in Lunatic+; I'm finding Viole useful despite him being one-rounded by everything just because half the enemies have skills that fuck up melee attacks somehow. But yeah, on Lunatic, they're not surviving things.

[Lord Raven]

Tyrant Sage, I'm going to keep saying this until you get the point: stop speaking out of your ass, you haven't played this game yet.

Richt is generally pretty bad even on NM, his reclass options are awful and he's a pretty terrible person to pair someone up with overall. His Magic growth is good and he can become a competent Dark Knight or Sage, and he's usable but he's really not good.

I thought Henry was pretty good on my NM file. Though, right now I'm having a bit of fun grinding some of the characters that i dont plan on using for the rest of the game (so that their children don't end up with dumbshit base stats, because I like the Gaiden chapters a lot), so I'll let you know later... but Henry's damage output is pretty ridiculous at base level even if he doesn't have the Speed to match it. It's not like anything ever doubles in this game outside of NM save a Swordmaster or a Swordmaster doubled with someone. I don't htink people should be too bothered with durability as a whole anyway; if someone has a lot of it they're not dying, and anything outside of "a lot" is at the mercy of the RNG and evasion, because enemies hit like a truck even on NM. Most units you get in this game, mages or not, can get killed quite quickly if you're not careful.

Still based on NM, but in my mind right now, outside of Krom/MU/Frederick (Frederick tends to lag, because he never ever speeds up in the EXP gain department)/Sumia everyone is at the very least at the same level. Not mediocre, but usable and strong if you put work into it. Some moreso than others, but I do feel there are a lot of options and there is a good amount of balance in this game. Characters who join later (like Serge) have their roles when they join too and can be usable after that (back to the Serge example, she can use the Hammer on the myriad of Armors in her join chapter). I'll let you know more on Hard Mode, but Lunatic is something else entirely.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Othin]

I don't htink people should be too bothered with durability as a whole anyway; if someone has a lot of it they're not dying, and anything outside of "a lot" is at the mercy of the RNG and evasion, because enemies hit like a truck even on NM. Most units you get in this game, mages or not, can get killed quite quickly if you're not careful.

On NM, maybe, where characters can take hits and enemies can miss. On the harder modes, durability becomes much more valuable of a commodity, and you really do need to focus on reliable, raw defenses, because the only situation where your characters are going to be dodging is a Swordmaster vs. a Berserker, and not even that on Lunatic+ if the Berserker has Absolute Hit. It's hard to withstand attacks, but it's a substantial concern.

I didn't really use Henry on Normal, but I tried to use him on Hard and didn't have much success. He's just too damn slow.

I should mention that while it might not be coming up yet, the impact of Double is huge on the higher difficulties. This isn't FE12: enemies are far out of the reach of your characters' raw stats.

[arvilino]

Henry isn't that good as a straight up combat unit in his base class. As a Magic User I say he's best as a Dark Knight for the movement range, though Sorceror can also be good for the Ruin Spell(his Skill is quite high and his skills help it further). The Ranged Damage can be worth it and Curse and Crimson curse are pretty useful support skills on the higher difficulties as at 1 range Henry reduces the enemy evasion 25 and critical evasion by 10 and supporting/doubling with a Melee unit he can be at no risk while providing both bonuses.

Though while I haven't used him as one, his stats as a Barbarian/Berserker seem promising if you have a Arms Scroll spare, his physical stats are pretty high and the Barbarian/Berserker provide high speed which is what he was mostly lacking.

Edited July 26, 2012 by arvilino

[Anouleth]

Doesn't have the speed to be a good Sorcerer.

For fuck's sake, the guy has the same base speed as Krom (granted on NM, but his speed is only 10 on Lunatic) but joins a whopping 13 or so chapters after the fact. 8 speed doubles jack shit. There's shit that doubles him which totally undermines and ruins any good defense he has.

From what I understand, at 10/15, Henry is only about 4 points behind Sariya's speed. Since Sariya is apparently capable of doubling just about everything, I get the impression that Henry isn't going to get doubled all that much with a good double partner and so on. He backs that up with leads in other areas, namely, everything except resistance, which he loses by one point. He has 6HP and 5DEF, for example, and a huge accuracy advantage (14 more skill and 8 more luck).

[Othin]

If Henry is keeping pace with Sariya, which isn't exactly a realistic situation. Sariya joins four chapters earlier and can easily get a substantial level lead, and because she's fighting so much better than he is, that level lead keeps growing. That head start and better effectiveness also lets Sariya get ahead in building up supports to increase her Double payoffs.

But it's true that they shouldn't really end up in a situation where Sariya is 10+ Spd ahead of Henry to double things that double him. On Hard, she can double things with good buffs, while Henry doesn't have too hard of a time avoiding being doubled, but he's still not doubling things. On Lunatic, Sariya isn't doubling anything, but Henry's going to have a hell of a time finding things that don't double him. The Myrmidons in his joining chapter have 24 fucking Spd.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Othin

[Westbrick]

Nono looks pretty bad too

Depends. On Lunatic, she's pretty much trash / relegated to chip-damage like 90% of the roster. On Normal and Hard, however, she can quickly break the game in a way matched only by sorcerers: sick defense, amazing growths, and her weapon is both ranged and melee. Only problem is that troublesome speed.

[Ein]

teehee

The kids aren't even going to exist unless they show up in such a way so that drafters can somehow add them to the rules in such a way that makes sense and doesn't mess with turn counts~

[Titamon]

Depends. On Lunatic, she's pretty much trash / relegated to chip-damage like 90% of the roster. On Normal and Hard, however, she can quickly break the game in a way matched only by sorcerers: sick defense, amazing growths, and her weapon is both ranged and melee. Only problem is that troublesome speed.

I'll take your word for it since I haven't played yet

[Ein]

If Lunatic is anything like Lunatic on FE11/12 then only horses, main Lord, MU, prepromos, and Sariya will be the only ones worth using in the long run. The kids can sit back in the their non-existence and deal with it.

[Lord Raven]

FE12 Lunatic didn't like horses very much

[Ein]

Is that so? Well good to know.

[Rewjeo]

I have a feeling we're going to reach a point in time where the majority of kids are considered bad on the basis that they won't exist without grinding.