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Anacybele
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My point still stands. Obviously things should be realistic (unless the point is to be unrealistic, but that's not the case here), but you sometimes have to sacrifice a bit of realism to get a better gameplay flow, which this map obviously lacks.

That's your opinion then.

http://puu.sh/10J43

Seem pretty straight to me =/.

Because you're making them seem straight. You completely left out the curves and slants.

Well you have terrible taste, then. And this isn't much of a challenge when you only face axe units, while you have a prepromote sword user, and Ike on a forest. I'm not even mentioning Ranulf since he isn't needed at all (and if he could transform it would be a cakewalk anyways, especially using the forests).

Except Ike is entirely unarmed (which you probably couldn't tell, I can understand that), and he has three guys surrounding him. Also, these bandits could easily gang up on Ranulf, who is average-leveled for an early map like this. Elincia, yeah, she could technically take these guys by herself, but they could gang up on her too. They don't have zero chance of hitting her, after all, and swordmasters are quite fragile.

And, it's not supposed to be THAT difficult. It's only chapter 2, after all.

K.

Except it could be executed a whole lot better.

To you. I like it the way it is.

But hey, you obviously seem to know this better than me, so why am I even arguing with you?

If I have lived on mountains for so long and walked as many mountains paths as I have, then yes, I probably do know more than you about them.

Also, if it makes you feel any better, the next chapter's map is much more open and less linear.

Edited by Anacybele
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While you do have a point that mountain paths in nature wind a lot, the chances of them turning out that symmetrical are pretty much nil. It still looks way too man-made.

Well, no one's saying that nobody actually built some of these paths themselves. Probably should've mentioned this earlier though.

It's not impossible, even for medieval people, to dig out a simple mountain road.

Edited by Anacybele
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That's your opinion then.

It might be, but I'm sure 90% of the people here would agree with me that it doesn't look (and isn't) fun to play (it would be 99-100 if this place would have less insane people).

Because you're making them seem straight. You completely left out the curves and slants.

Oh but you completely fail to see what I mean.

They're /tiles/. And the cliff tiles are almost all lined up together. Sure, the use of different cliff tiles make it look less straight, but they're still straight strips of cliff tiles. And that's a bad thing because cliffs just aren't supposed to be like that in FE maps. They just don't work that way. No good mapper makes their cliffs like that.

Except Ike is entirely unarmed (which you probably couldn't tell, I can understand that), and he has three guys surrounding him. Also, these bandits could easily gang up on Ranulf, who is average-leveled for an early map like this. Elincia, yeah, she could technically take these guys by herself, but they could gang up on her too. They don't have zero chance of hitting her, after all, and swordmasters are quite fragile.

And, it's not supposed to be THAT difficult. It's only chapter 2, after all.

Oh but I knew that Ike was unarmed (heck we even spoke about that some time ago). The point is that Ike is on a forest, so he will like, almost never get hit. The Brigands are like lvl 1-3, right? With an Iron Axe, they'd have about 80 hit (75+ like 1-3 skill, and if you give them a bit luck it might go near 85).

Ike probably has at least 30 natural avoid. Forests give 20 avoid. 80=50 = 30.

Sure, it's not 0, but unless on a bad RNG spree, this wouldn't get Ike dead in at least 10 turns. And hell, I'm probably very lenient on the Brigands, since Ike will probably be even higher leveled (I don't know when this fanfic of yours is, but if it's after PoR, I expect him to have at least 50 natural avoid, and if it's after RD, it'd be even more).

Now, Elincia is obviously prepromoted, and with her high speed and luck, I say good luck to those Brigands and Fighters. Unless they somehow have Swordreavers (but those don't exist in PoR and RD so I guess not).

I don't care about Ranulf since Elincia can do all the work, as you said.

I know it doesn't have to be challenging, but you said it yourself "I like to play it for the challenge", so I just proved you wrong in that it doesn't yield any form of challenge whatsoever.

To you.

And 90-99% of the rest of the forum.

I like it the way it is.

Sure, that's fine. But that doesn't mean you can just blow out the legit CnC I and others give. Becuase this map. Just. Isn't. Good.

If I have lived on mountains for so long and walked as many mountains paths as I have, then yes, I probably do know more than you about them.

Oh but I wasn't talking about real life mountains (as I said before).

I'm talking about FE maps. And I think you know the answer to that.

Also, if it makes you feel any better, the next chapter's map is much more open and less linear.

Set me on fire.

Edited by Feawture
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You're dodging the point. Let's say they dug the paths out for the sake of argument. Normally it would be efficient to dig the path as the crow flies, however the path of least resistance when digging barely ever follows such a path up a mountain. Naturally though, the diggers would want to dig a path that has the shortest length while maintaining a fairly low resistance to travel (ie no steep cliffs). Following this logic, the chances of the path of least resistance following a perfect zig-zag (one of the most ineffecient paths I might add) are still next to zero.

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If people built that road then they were aiming for it to be an inconvenience XD People would likely prefer to make the path as straight as possible. I don't think it being made by people would be all that plausible. They're too impatient for taking the long way XD

I think I agree, the cliffs could afford less symmetry too. If I were to try compare this to something I have learned about in geology, it almost looks like a huge slump in the ground, but it would also be too even for that (even as in the distance between each cliff). I also don't know if slumps break off into so many cliffs or not, probably just depends on how loosely the ground sticks together? And I also think that in the slump the cliffs would be round. But at least in that case it makes sense that the cliffs are all facing downward...

But idk, I'm trying to see if I can make the way the cliffs are set up to make sense and it looks like I'm failing already XD

I also still have to disagree about the cliffs being too straight or unnaturally so... it looks like the idea is only that in FE maps they don't make sense? x3

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It might be, but I'm sure 90% of the people here would agree with me that it doesn't look (and isn't) fun to play (it would be 99-100 if this place would have less insane people).

lol yeah right. Someone posted in this thread earlier saying that they liked the concept and that the map would have excellent gameplay.

Oh but you completely fail to see what I mean.

They're /tiles/. And the cliff tiles are almost all lined up together. Sure, the use of different cliff tiles make it look less straight, but they're still straight strips of cliff tiles. And that's a bad thing because cliffs just aren't supposed to be like that in FE maps. They just don't work that way. No good mapper makes their cliffs like that.

It doesn't matter if they're tiles. Some still don't have straight cliff pieces.

Oh but I knew that Ike was unarmed (heck we even spoke about that some time ago). The point is that Ike is on a forest, so he will like, almost never get hit. The Brigands are like lvl 1-3, right? With an Iron Axe, they'd have about 80 hit (75+ like 1-3 skill, and if you give them a bit luck it might go near 85).

Ike probably has at least 30 natural avoid. Forests give 20 avoid. 80=50 = 30.

Sure, it's not 0, but unless on a bad RNG spree, this wouldn't get Ike dead in at least 10 turns. And hell, I'm probably very lenient on the Brigands, since Ike will probably be even higher leveled (I don't know when this fanfic of yours is, but if it's after PoR, I expect him to have at least 50 natural avoid, and if it's after RD, it'd be even more).

Now, Elincia is obviously prepromoted, and with her high speed and luck, I say good luck to those Brigands and Fighters. Unless they somehow have Swordreavers (but those don't exist in PoR and RD so I guess not).

Nope. These bandits (there are Fighters on the map too, you know) are actually around lv. 10-11. The boss, I'd say is lv. 15 or 16. Ranulf is lv. 14. Elincia is lv. 2. Ike is lv. 12 (Hero).

And 90-99% of the rest of the forum.

Again, I highly doubt that.

Sure, that's fine. But that doesn't mean you can just blow out the legit CnC I and others give. Becuase this map. Just. Isn't. Good.

To you it isn't. Others do like it. And if I'm blowing out people's critique, why have I edited the map using exactly what everyone said? Make the mountains more natural? Did that. Make the cliffs less straight? Did that. Fix the paths to make them more natural? Did that too.

Look, I've edited this map several times over already. I'm tired of messing with it. And I feel it's fine as it is. I know I'm no expert at making GBA maps, but I'm done with this one.

Edited by Anacybele
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Fair enough. Just remember that CnC is only there to help you adhere to the highest standard of quality that's manageable. If you post a map with flaws in it, we're going to point out those flaws. Whether you fix them or not is up to you, but if you choose the latter, don't expect the feedback to be consistently positive.

If at some point in the future you do become a much better mapper, I can promise you that looking back on this will irk you, quite possibly into re-doing the entire map. Trust me, I did the same with all the earlier maps in my own (now dead) hack.

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Anacybele, I give up. I'll see you again in a few years, and I hope you'll have learned more about FE mapping. And how to deal with criticism.

The people who say this map is good are either a) being overly nice, b) don't know shit about mapping, c) have a wrong definition of good.

And don't say I'm ridiculous by saying that. As I said, in a few years you'll see what I mean.

Oh and, you know why I went through all the crap of posting this? Because I want to see you become better. I want to see you make good maps. But you'll first have to learn to know what's right and wrong. And how FE mapping works. But if you don't want to learn that, then fine, don't improve.

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And how to deal with criticism.
Fair enough. Just remember that CnC is only there to help you adhere to the highest standard of quality that's manageable. If you post a map with flaws in it, we're going to point out those flaws. Whether you fix them or not is up to you, but if you choose the latter, don't expect the feedback to be consistently positive.
And if I'm blowing out people's critique, why have I edited the map using exactly what everyone said? Make the mountains more natural? Did that. Make the cliffs less straight? Did that. Fix the paths to make them more natural? Did that too.

I simply am getting pissed that even after all the critique I listened to in order to improve this map and the Kiara mug I posted, you all are sadly still accusing me of not doing so.

Edited by Anacybele
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I acknowledge that you're at least trying. The problem isn't anywhere near solved however. If the problem still persists, we will continue to redundantly point it out. You have made improvements, yes, but the problems are still glaring us in the face when we look at the map.

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I acknowledge that you're at least trying. The problem isn't anywhere near solved however. If the problem still persists, we will continue to redundantly point it out. You have made improvements, yes, but the problems are still glaring us in the face when we look at the map.

Trying? No, I've been DOING. Someone says the mountains look unnatural and need improved. I said okay and improved them. That's not TRYING to accept criticism. That's actually accepting and using it.

Also, you say I've made improvements, but then you say the map still has the same problems as before. That also pisses me off. Not only is it contradictory and making no sense (if it still has the same problems, how is it improved at all?), but I try and try but nothing ever satisfies you people.

Edited by Anacybele
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Also, you say I've made improvements, but then you say the map still has the same problems as before. That also pisses me off. Not only is it contradictory and making no sense (if it still has the same problems, how is it improved at all?), but I try and try but nothing ever satisfies you people.

Wat. Pretty sure that before we were all talking about your mountains so you went and fixed them. This is good. Now we're talking about your cliffs and you're throwing up a brick wall at us. This is bad.

Also, I'll just leave this here:

c805844a4e77904d885fdfbfed845c89.png

Top three tiles I circled are cut off. The bottom one you should be using the circled tiled where the arrow is pointing since that's cut off too.

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Well I did say I was glad you improved many aspects of the map. And we're not saying you're ignoring all the criticism.

Here, this is what you do;

> is you, and - is someone who gives criticism.

> post stuff

- gives criticism

>I don't see that, I don't understand, it's fine as it is.

- gives more insight

>okay *edits*

- something is still wrong with it

> but I just edited that, I don't understand, it's fine now.

- clarifies, etc

>I really dont see it

blahblahblahblah

>okay *edits*

- something /still/ is wrong

>wth I edited it so many times its good now

- but its still wrong

>no it isnt

- it is

> no it's not quit it, I like it as it is.

- but it's still wrong

And then you're off again to ignoring the criticism =/.

Oh, and, improving something doesn't automatically erase the problem at hand. It only decreases the size of the problem.

As Mariobro said, we will keep pointing the problems out until we are fine with it. Sure, a part of it may be opinions and taste, but if many people point stuff out, it might as well be taken as a fact. We're not ridiculous people (at least, most of us aren't). We just want to make you better.

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Trying? No, I've been DOING. Someone says the mountains look unnatural and need improved. I said okay and improved them. That's not TRYING to accept criticism. That's actually accepting and using it.

Also, you say I've made improvements, but then you say the map still has the same problems as before. That also pisses me off. Not only is it contradictory and making no sense (if it still has the same problems, how is it improved at all?), but I try and try but nothing ever satisfies you people.

First off, when people say that the cliffs look linear, they mean the tile placement themselves, not what each tile looks like, sprite-wise. Feaw's diagram a bit back showed a bunch of different cliff tiles in a straight line. The actual tiles made the cliffs look slightly less linear, but it's the actual tile placement they were referring to.

Second, You've made improvements, and most of the comments about THOSE problems have stopped. But there have been specific problems such as the cliff tile placement that people have been talking about for some time now, and it is still a large problem. Hence, same problem (or problems, as the case may be).

And lastly, welcome to SF. We're rarely satisfied with anything because everything can always be improved. The reason the more successful spriters get a lot of praise mixed in with the crit is because they've garnered enough skill that the good of a work vastly outweighs the bad.

EDIT: Damn, ninja'd

Edited by Mercenary Lord
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Well, the thing is, I'm tired of messing with it and I want to make something new. I'm getting bored of working on the same piece over and over. Is that really a crime?

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Not at all. But it's just the way you say things that makes you appear to not understand our statements. And you're just shrugging things off, so we keep continuing to poin things out.

If you want to leave this map alone becuase youre sick of editing it, sure. As I said, in a few years or whatever, you'll see the things that are wrong with it. At that point you can choose to either fuck it, or edit it, it's your choice.

But just respect the criticism that's thrown at you.

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Not at all. But it's just the way you say things that makes you appear to not understand our statements. And you're just shrugging things off, so we keep continuing to poin things out.

If you want to leave this map alone becuase youre sick of editing it, sure. As I said, in a few years or whatever, you'll see the things that are wrong with it. At that point you can choose to either fuck it, or edit it, it's your choice.

But just respect the criticism that's thrown at you.

Okay then. For now, I want to leave this map alone. I know I said before that I wouldn't touch it again, but I'll get back to it eventually. I've realized that it has a difficult concept to pull off, and wasn't the best map to start with. I'll work on easier maps first. Is that fair?

And of course I respect the criticism I'm given. It might not seem like it, but I swear I do.

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No. If you're tired of it, just move on and come back to this later.

Edit: late reply is late.

Don't worry, I do that a lot here myself. xP

And also, chapter 3's map should be much easier for me to pull off anyway.

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