How balanced would you say this game is compared to other FEs?

[grandjackal]

Difficulty is not balance. Balance is generally the effectiveness of features the player has access to. If there are a few options the player has available to them that are extremely effective relative to the other ones, it's an imbalanced game.

So, FE12?

FE12 Lunatic does have a lot of unviable recruits, but that's not a major balance issue. There's not much RNG involved in getting an AAA, esp. if you're using the Rainbow Potion. FE12 Lunatic is one of the most balanced FE modes because not only is there no feature to trivialize the game with (although Rainbow Pot does make it a good deal easier), but they went out of their way to prevent boss chipping and such.

Really, bosschipping was something that broke the game? Yes, heaven forbid a player take two hours out of their day to max out the level of a single unit, god smite the man who allowed that nonsense. Truly that is how cheaters have fun, too many abuse this incredibly arduous and slow process. It must be annihilated off the face of the earth. Nevermind that you can totally still do it on Lawrence.

Maybe I just hate doing the one same thing over and over and over, but I find a game that gives you only one real option to ever bother with as being a terribly designed game, even if it is supposedly the ultimate challenge. All that does is make me never wanna play it again after I beat it once.

EDIT: Also the reason I bring up difficulty is because a game doesn't need to be played at the highest difficulty to be fun, and FE12 is pretty much the worst offender of being dull even on lower difficulties. It's fun for no one is what I'm saying.

Edited April 2, 2013 by grandjackal

[Dark Sage]

EDIT: Also the reason I bring up difficulty is because a game doesn't need to be played at the highest difficulty to be fun, and FE12 is pretty much the worst offender of being dull even on lower difficulties. It's fun for no one is what I'm saying.

I'm sorry. Since when exactly did you speak for what everybody finds fun?

[PKL]

Last I checked, FE12 was a well received FE. Fun might have something to do with that.

[grandjackal]

I'm sorry. Since when exactly did you speak for what everybody finds fun?

Sorry, you're right, I worded that a bit arrogantly.

I don't see how anyone could find this fun. Still opinionated, but not as smug.

Last I checked, FE12 was a well received FE. Fun might have something to do with that.

Last I checked, no one really talks about this game. FE12 hasn't really made explosive topics, and most aren't really gameplay related. If you mean in sales, it's kinda hard to say that when it was released only in Japan.

[Dark Sage]

Nobody talks about FE12 because a) the game was only released in Japan, b) most discussion of this game revolved around Lunatic, which simply does not have a lot of room for it due to its nature, and c) Awakening is out so no one really cares. There was an increase in discussion recently in this game, what with the release of a translation patch and all, but the timing was somewhat unfortunate as everybody's attention turned to Awakening pretty quickly.

I don't get how you can bash FE12 for its imbalances but praise FE11 when the latter is just as heavily imbalanced, if not moreso, and I'm not even talking about Warpskip. I don't hate FE11 or anything, I just find your opinion unusual (note I didn't say bad).

[grandjackal]

Nobody talks about FE12 because a) the game was only released in Japan, b) most discussion of this game revolved around Lunatic, which simply does not have a lot of room for it due to its nature, and c) Awakening is out so no one really cares. There was an increase in discussion recently in this game, what with the release of a translation patch and all, but the timing was somewhat unfortunate as everybody's attention turned to Awakening pretty quickly.

Suppose that's true, but it does reinforce that no one is really interested in 12. Even after the translation patch making it viable for just about anyone on the site, people weren't that willing to turn their attention back here. If it does come back here, then cool.

I don't get how you can bash FE12 for its imbalances but praise FE11 when the latter is just as heavily imbalanced, if not moreso, and I'm not even talking about Warpskip. I don't hate FE11 or anything, I just find your opinion unusual (note I didn't say bad).

The reason is that FE11 doesn't quite force your hand so hard. I still have room to play the game as I want rather than how the game once me to play. A good example of FE12 doing this is chapter 7, where you get Navarre (If that's not 7, I still mean Navarre's chapter). Basically if I don't have a bunch of fliers to get the Scorpio Shard and save my dancer, my whole playthrough is boned. If I don't get Marth in a specific part of the north area in 2 turns, I'm screwed cause heroes start moving and I can't outrun them unless I sacrifice my dancer, which comes with the problem above. Yes, LTC for something like 11 clearly exposes imba and acc issues (DS has a terrible acc formula), but the game isn't straight telling me to play the one way I want you to or die. To top this off, even the worst of units in FE11 are merely bad. FE12's cast on the other hand has a majority of units so unusable that they can't survive to do anything at all, or are just obvious shitbaggers by the time you get them in easier difficulties (which in turn made their additions feel lazy considering they added a bunch of new units that were just flat out terrible/unusable).

As for the diffuclty scaling aspect, no unit in FE11 is on a level that MU is. Even on easier difficulties of FE11, I can't just have a unit exist like MU that can laugh their ass off through the entire game (partly because the game is kind enough to remove Prologue, something I wish FE12 did, then scaled the game from Chapter 1 onwards).

In short, even though 11 has it's flaws, I can still have fun with the game. FE12 on the other hand is as abusive as a violently bad marriage, be it for the player or against. Hope that clarifies my thoughts to you.

[eclipse]

Sorry, you're right, I worded that a bit arrogantly.

I don't see how anyone could find this fun. Still opinionated, but not as smug.

I find H1 enjoyable, because it's hard enough that I can't randomly bumrush and expect no casualties, but not so difficult that it makes anyone impossible to use. If I want to do something like Wrys the Berserker, I can probably get away with it on Hard. Of course, you aren't me, so I can't expect you to see things from my point of view.

[Tamanoir]

Wait, why is everyone talking about lunatic here ?

I thought that was balance in general.

Didn't play FE11, but FE12 makes missing characters extremely easy. Having Marth for both visiting village and seizing is a pretty stupid choice.

Character recruitment is extremely badly done. I missed Vantuu and Castor inmy actual playthrough, and Minerva is pretty easy to miss to.

I think that if you play for turns, you have to miss half of the cast. (I'm curious what LTC player have to say, honnestly)

Bantuu makes you miss precious turn, and force Marth againdt strong unit, mainly having WTA. And Mionerva includes a giant sidetrack just to recruit her. (Or Warp/Return abuse obviously, but having to use it doesn't count as balance in my book, it doesn't really count as good design either...)

That being said, I'm still early/midgame, and except for MU who is particulary great (Especially as a Cav/Paladin), thedifficulty is consistent.

They also limit the use of Areana Abuse, and generally punish you for taking too much turn. Dire Ground can still be really abused though.

Also this game throw weapons and Items at you like crazy, so you don't need to pass to much time in shops.

[fatgamecat]

There is nothing in FE12 that lets you trivialize Lunatic Reverse' difficulty like you can in Awakening or FE11 (Warp staves). Rainbow Potion is about as good as it gets. Stat boosted MU is good early-midgame but does not last.

Strategy = difficulty. A highly difficult game mode like Lunatic Reverse will be puzzle-like because it requires precise and complex strategy. When people say "I want more options to do things" they mean they want an easier game where there are more strategies not likely to end in failure.

Whether a game is measurably difficult or balanced doesn't have anything to do with how subjectively fun it is for someone, of course. Even though FE12 is very difficult and well balanced against the player, you might not find Lunatic mode to be very fun.

Edited April 2, 2013 by mjemirzian

[eclipse]

There is nothing in FE12 that lets you trivialize Lunatic Reverse' difficulty like you can in Awakening. Rainbow Potion is about as good as it gets. Stat boosted MU is good early-midgame but does not last.

Strategy = difficulty. A highly difficult game mode like Lunatic Reverse will be puzzle-like because it requires precise and complex strategy. When people say "I want more options to do things" they mean they want an easier game where there are more strategies not likely to end in failure.

Whether a game is measurably difficult or balanced doesn't have anything to do with how subjectively fun it is for someone, of course.

Or maybe I just want to be stupidly random? It's a reclass system, why wouldn't I want to do unconventional things? I can do sane things like put Rody in a class that can take advantage of his sword rank, or I can say screw it all and give him a staff.

In other words, don't assume that wanting options = "I want an easier game".

(better yet, stop assuming things about people, 'cause not everyone thinks the same way; this goes for more than the person I'm responding to)

[PKL]

Suppose that's true, but it does reinforce that no one is really interested in 12. Even after the translation patch making it viable for just about anyone on the site, people weren't that willing to turn their attention back here. If it does come back here, then cool.

The reason is that FE11 doesn't quite force your hand so hard. I still have room to play the game as I want rather than how the game once me to play. A good example of FE12 doing this is chapter 7, where you get Navarre (If that's not 7, I still mean Navarre's chapter). Basically if I don't have a bunch of fliers to get the Scorpio Shard and save my dancer, my whole playthrough is boned. If I don't get Marth in a specific part of the north area in 2 turns, I'm screwed cause heroes start moving and I can't outrun them unless I sacrifice my dancer, which comes with the problem above. Yes, LTC for something like 11 clearly exposes imba and acc issues (DS has a terrible acc formula), but the game isn't straight telling me to play the one way I want you to or die. To top this off, even the worst of units in FE11 are merely bad. FE12's cast on the other hand has a majority of units so unusable that they can't survive to do anything at all, or are just obvious shitbaggers by the time you get them in easier difficulties (which in turn made their additions feel lazy considering they added a bunch of new units that were just flat out terrible/unusable).

As for the diffuclty scaling aspect, no unit in FE11 is on a level that MU is. Even on easier difficulties of FE11, I can't just have a unit exist like MU that can laugh their ass off through the entire game (partly because the game is kind enough to remove Prologue, something I wish FE12 did, then scaled the game from Chapter 1 onwards).

In short, even though 11 has it's flaws, I can still have fun with the game. FE12 on the other hand is as abusive as a violently bad marriage, be it for the player or against. Hope that clarifies my thoughts to you.

Bolded part: That's really not true. I've proven with a playthrough that even an all-sniper team can get the scorpio shard and seize comfortably before the heroes move.

Italic part: Caeda says hi. And the Prologue being skippable wouldve just made a lot of units of the prologue trash. You cant complain about imba and then say u wish prologue was skippable.

And I dont see how FE12 is abusable. You defended FE13 earlier and said some ppl have funny opinions on it, but that game can be solo'd by Nosferatu users, has Galeforce and almost all of your units other than Avatar and Fred are trash in Lunatic. At least FE12 has Palla, Catria, Avatar, Luke, Rody, Ryan, Cecille, Caeda, Sirius, Draug, Linde, Belf, Leiden, Barst, Ogma, Etzel, Merric, Navarre, Feena, Nagi, Arran (for a while), Malicia, Linde, Roger, Cain, Frey, Drill Grounds and a miriad of stuff to make them usable, like Growth Drop, Rainbow Pot and multiple statboosters. FE13 is just lolavatar. Sure, it also has people like sheema, but doesnt every FE have those?

EDIT: Also, try playing FE11 with a Lorenz marth solo in H5 and them come back to tell me you can play FE11 any way you want.

Edited April 2, 2013 by CordeliaxFrederick

[Jedi]

Bolded part: That's really not true. I've proven with a playthrough that even an all-sniper team can get the scorpio shard and seize comfortably before the heroes move.

Italic part: Caeda says hi. And the Prologue being skippable wouldve just made a lot of units of the prologue trash. You cant complain about imba and then say u wish prologue was skippable.

And I dont see how FE12 is abusable. You defended FE13 earlier and said some ppl have funny opinions on it, but that game can be solo'd by Nosferatu users, has Galeforce and almost all of your units other than Avatar and Fred are trash in Lunatic. At least FE12 has Palla, Catria, Avatar, Luke, Rody, Ryan, Cecille, Caeda, Sirius, Draug, Linde, Belf, Leiden, Barst, Ogma, Etzel, Merric, Navarre, Feena, Nagi, Arran (for a while), Malicia, Linde, Roger, Cain, Frey, Drill Grounds and a miriad of stuff to make them usable, like Growth Drop, Rainbow Pot and multiple statboosters. FE13 is just lolavatar. Sure, it also has people like sheema, but doesnt every FE have those?

EDIT: Also, try playing FE11 with a Lorenz marth solo in H5 and them come back to tell me you can play FE11 any way you want.

To support your points further

All you really need in FE12 to get most anyone useable even in Lunatic is the cash for the drill grounds which the game gives you plenty of. I mean IceSage managed to get WOLF useable in Lunatic.

[Constable Reggie]

Trying to make most units past ch14 usuable is possible, but completely unreasonable. Tomas gets 1rkoed by the dracoknights that spawn near him on hard mode, wtf is that.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[PKL]

Trying to make most units past ch14 usuable is possible, but completely unreasonable. Tomas gets 1rkoed by the dracoknights that spawn near him on hard mode, wtf is that.

Trying to make Sophia usable is possible, but completely unreasonable. She gets 1hko'd and doubled by all the enemies in her join chapter.

Trying to make Wendy usable is possible, but completely unreasonable. She gets 1rko'd by the archers and most enemies in her join chapter in hard mode, wtf is that?

Trying to make Rebecca usable is possible, but completely...u know.

The same applies to a lot of units throughout the series. I'd argue theres more % of unusable/trash characters in FE13 and 11 than in 12.

[Constable Reggie]

Rebecca's not that hard to use.

You're comparing a game where 2 units out of 50+ are difficult to use, to a game where roughly 1/3rd of the characters are difficult to use. Surely you can tell the difference.

Fe13 always gives you the option to grind, so every unit can at least be used in an inefficient playthrough. You don't have infinite money in New Mystery.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[LeaderR Elliot]

Rebecca's not that hard to use.

You're comparing a game where 2 units out of 50+ are difficult to use, to a game where roughly 1/3rd of the characters are difficult to use. Surely you can tell the difference.

Fe13 always gives you the option to grind, so every unit can at least be used in an inefficient playthrough. You don't have infinite money in New Mystery.

Well not infinite money force me to spend it wisely I get that is good. Surely money is not enough to make everyone super but at least works for a couple of units each playthrough and I feel comfortable with that.

[bottlegnomes]

Difficulty is not balance. Balance is generally the effectiveness of features the player has access to. If there are a few options the player has available to them that are extremely effective relative to the other ones, it's an imbalanced game.

FE12 Lunatic does have a lot of unviable recruits, but that's not a major balance issue. There's not much RNG involved in getting an AAA, esp. if you're using the Rainbow Potion. FE12 Lunatic is one of the most balanced FE modes because not only is there no feature to trivialize the game with (although Rainbow Pot does make it a good deal easier), but they went out of their way to prevent boss chipping and such.

Absolute balance in a single player game (and multiplayer to a certain extent) is the absence of a dominant strategy and where all strategies have an exactly equal probability of success (and to the same degree where applicable). Obviously this would make for a boring game, but the more balanced a game, the more viable the non-dominant strategies are.

In multiplayer games, again, absolute balance would entail every strategy being equally viable as well as all competitors having the exact same options.

Not being able to shitstomp the game is not the only thing that goes into balance.

That said, no FE game is particularly balanced, but I'm fairly sure if one were, very few people would like it. All the characters would be identical, which would kill a big part of what I'm guessing a majority of FE fans like. But at the same time, they should try for some semblance of balance.

[Refa]

I don't think what people really want is balance but for every unit to be useful. Noone likes their favorite unit being a PITA to train.

Well, er, people do have different definitions of "useful" (Nino and Amelia are awesome!), but noone would complain if like, Wendy had actual bases in stats not named Luck.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Refa

[Bryan]

I'd argue theres more % of unusable/trash characters in FE13 and 11 than in 12.

No. This is BS. There's two "unusable" characters in FE13. Ricken & Donnel. Both of which can be salvaged, even without grinding. Ricken is worse than Donnel, due to not having Aptitude.

FE12? Past chapter 10, I wouldn't use almost any of those characters. Like three of them are worthwhile. Everyone else is worse than your current characters.

Conclusion? FE13 >>>>> FE12 as far as unusable characters go.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Bryan

[PKL]

No. This is BS. There's two "unusable" characters in FE13. Ricken & Donnel. Both of which can be salvaged, even without grinding. Ricken is worse than Donnel, due to not having Aptitude.

FE12? Past chapter 10, I wouldn't use almost any of those characters. Like three of them are worthwhile. Everyone else is worse than your current characters.

Conclusion? FE13 >>>>> FE12 as far as unusable characters go.

It's not BS. Im talking Lunatic 13 vs Lunatic 12. In one of the games, you only need your Avatar and Frederick to win the game. Why would you bother training anyone else? In 12, you have a lot more viable characters (though u also have a lot more unviable units I guess but that comes with the larger cast) and Lunatic encourages a full team. In Lunatic 13, Miriel joins being OHKO' and doubled by everyone in the chapter. Vaike gets ORKO'd. Stahl gets ORKO'd too. Meanwhile, the only units that could contribute to your chapter 2 clear would be Frederick and Avatar+Chrom. The same applies to a lot of the game. Putting units in range of enemies other than Avatar+Chrom and Frederick is just being stupid Id argue. Considering theyll never be more than a hit and run unit at best that will never be good at Enemy Phase unless you really go out of your way to train them.

And Donnel being better than Ricken is lolworthy.

Edited April 3, 2013 by CordeliaxFrederick

[Shadow Mir]

It's not BS. Im talking Lunatic 13 vs Lunatic 12. In one of the games, you only need your Avatar and Frederick to win the game. Why would you bother training anyone else? In 12, you have a lot more viable characters (though u also have a lot more unviable units I guess but that comes with the larger cast) and Lunatic encourages a full team. In Lunatic 13, Miriel joins being OHKO' and doubled by everyone in the chapter. Vaike gets ORKO'd. Stahl gets ORKO'd too. Meanwhile, the only units that could contribute to your chapter 2 clear would be Frederick and Avatar+Chrom. The same applies to a lot of the game. Putting units in range of enemies other than Avatar+Chrom and Frederick is just being stupid Id argue. Considering theyll never be more than a hit and run unit at best that will never be good at Enemy Phase unless you really go out of your way to train them.

And Donnel being better than Ricken is lolworthy.

Well, either way, I just see Lunatic as boring since it essentially forces you to play a certain way, whether it's here or in Awakening. And I find it worse here because of the whole thing about enemies using silver weapons after the prologue, which I consider fake difficulty.

[PKL]

Silver weapons after Prologue isnt what I'd consider fake difficulty...and you dont really have to play a certain way

[Shadow Mir]

Silver weapons after Prologue isnt what I'd consider fake difficulty...and you dont really have to play a certain way

Maybe, but it's still completely ridiculous in my book...

[Constable Reggie]

It's not BS. Im talking Lunatic 13 vs Lunatic 12. In one of the games, you only need your Avatar and Frederick to win the game. Why would you bother training anyone else? In 12, you have a lot more viable characters (though u also have a lot more unviable units I guess but that comes with the larger cast) and Lunatic encourages a full team. In Lunatic 13, Miriel joins being OHKO' and doubled by everyone in the chapter. Vaike gets ORKO'd. Stahl gets ORKO'd too. Meanwhile, the only units that could contribute to your chapter 2 clear would be Frederick and Avatar+Chrom. The same applies to a lot of the game. Putting units in range of enemies other than Avatar+Chrom and Frederick is just being stupid Id argue. Considering theyll never be more than a hit and run unit at best that will never be good at Enemy Phase unless you really go out of your way to train them.

And Donnel being better than Ricken is lolworthy.

If you're talking lunatic, then now half of Fe12's cast is unusable.

At least most people in 13 can be paired up to fix their flaws. Just because the game can be beaten by just MU doesn't mean everyone else is unusable.

it doesn't help when you have to use the highest difficulty (a difficulty players will probably never play) to make your case. 1/3rd of 12's cast are also extremely difficult to use on hard and maniac, not just lunatic.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Retsudo]

Well, either way, I just see Lunatic as boring since it essentially forces you to play a certain way, whether it's here or in Awakening. And I find it worse here because of the whole thing about enemies using silver weapons after the prologue, which I consider fake difficulty.

How is that fake difficulty?

It is not random and the player can see it coming.