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Seven Deadly Sins

FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

1823 posts in this topic

The following ground rules are laid down:
Difficulty: Hard Mode. Lunatic and Lunatic+ are a bit too constraining for there to be a worthwhile tier list for it, and any lunatic tier list would likely be just a more extreme version of the current tier list.
Efficiency: We are moving at a brisk pace, but this isn't an absolute minimum LTC tier list. No "character <x> shaves a turn in chapter <y>" arguments here.
Paralogues: Assume all available are completed. Paralogues are done as early as possible. The more difficult child paralogues may be delayed due to map difficulty.
Barracks: Not allowed.
Skirmishes / DLC / Spotpass Battles/Shops: Not allowed.
Map Shopping: Allowed, but you may not buy Anna Shop special items.
Event Tiles: No items obtained from event tiles are allowed to be used. Supports / EXP gain can be pushed forward slightly by them, but otherwise no real impact.
Renown: Assume 0 renown start. That means the following items are obtainable via Renown at the following times:
Glass Sword (after Chapter 4)
Second Seal (after Paralogue 3)
Orsin's Hatchet (after Chapter 11)
Seed of Trust (4 maps after Chapter 13)
Levin Sword (6 maps after Seed of Trust)
Energy Drop (6 maps after Levin Sword)
Beast Killer (7 maps after Energy Drop)

Non-Lucina children are ordered in a separate tier list at the bottom of the page. Until we figure out how the hell to tier them, they'll stay there, and discussion on them will be limited at best.

 

Grandmaster Of Disaster:
Avatar

S Tier:
Sully
Panne
Frederick
Stahl

Lucina (Avatar)

Chrom

A Tier:
Anna
Sumia
Cordelia
Lon'qu
Lucina (Sully / Sumia)
Nowi

 

B Tier:
Tharja
Libra
Cherche
Miriel
Vaike
Gregor
Gaius
Lucina (Anyone Else)

C Tier:
Tiki
Kellam
Lissa
Maribelle
Say'ri
Olivia
Henry

D Tier:
Virion
Donnel
Ricken
Basilio
Flavia


Kid Tier List:
Morgan
Yarne
Kjelle
Cynthia
Owain
Gerome
Laurent
Severa
Nah
Brady
Noire
Inigo

Edited by Seven Deadly Sins

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I'm going to assume that tonics can be used as soon as you get access to the shops that have them. I don't think their use will really affect the current placements at this time, though. Edited by Sol Hiryu

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It's a pretty good tier list if you can somehow manage to summon the fortitude to not let one "off-placement" ruin your day. Edited by PK Gaming

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Virion under Henry? seriously? Virion contributes much more in his limited time before Henry shows up than Henry will do for his whole life.

Also Ricken above Nowi at least, due to Elwind spam

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I think you can use the difficulty of their maps as part of the metric to tier child characters. For example, you're more likely to pick up Kjelle before you pick up Inigo, because Kjelle's map is significantly easier. Morgan should probably be at the top of the kids (with the exception of maybe Lucina), due to his/her classes as well as the fact that one of his parents will have kickass stats.

Also, I cannot wrap my head around Panne's placement. A little help here please!

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Panne's placement is based on the fact that once she gets that first Second Seal to reclass to Wyvern Rider, her offense is pretty much unparalleled by anyone that isn't the Avatar. E Rank Axes isn't as much a detriment because Bronze Axes are slightly more powerful than the others.

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[quote name='eclipse' date='06 March 2013 - 10:57 PM' timestamp='1362639457' post='2309169']
Also, I cannot wrap my head around Panne's placement. A little help here please!
[/quote]

If she's swapped over to a wyvern rider she gets pretty massive boosts to Strength and defence in that class and her growths seem to be fairly high, especially strength and speed.

ninja'd Edited by General Horace

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That helps, thanks!

I think the children can be tiered off of a combination of their mothers (including availability) and potential pool of fathers. For example, if Panne's really that ridiculous, she'll probably see a lot of maps; thus, building supports with a viable male is easier than someone like Nowi, who probably isn't going to be on as many maps.

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Ricken is so far outclassed by both Avatar and Miriel (as well as the soon-to-arrive Tharja), and his stats are just so godawful at base that he's barely usable at all. Elwind isn't that good and it's better given to someone that can do something with it.

Virion is bow-locked in a game where enemy phase is more relevant than in any other game. Terrible skills, near-permanent bow lock, and a base 5 speed come together to make him by far one of the worst characters. Henry is at least barely usable (you can patch up his speed with pair up and a speed tonic, and Nosferatu exists for sheer tanking), and has 1-2 range. Plus, Dark Mage is a good contender for best unpromoted class skills.

Also, an addendum on Panne: Taguel bases are atrocious, bad enough that when Panne reclasses, she gets stat bonuses comparable to a full promotion. She basically gets to promote twice, and has utterly ridiculous growths as a Wyvern Rider. It's not just the 75 Str / 65 Skl / 70 Spe growths, it's the 105 HP, 50 Def, and 20 Res growths on top of that. She also gets Even Rhythm, Tantivy, and Quick Burn (if she opts for Wyvern Lord) for crazy evasion. Alternately, Deliverer makes her the most mobile unit in the game at 10 movement without Boots.

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Any reason why Ricken is underneath Donnel? I admit that he's certainly not a fantastic character, especially due to his base speed and a very awkward class set, but I don't get why he's in the same league as Donnel.

Edit: Ninjas are everywhere! Edited by Doofina

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If we're doing any sort of efficiency at all, then Olivia should go way up. Sumia should also be up a few spots. Libra is significantly better than everyone else in his tier, and Tiki definitely should go down. I also don't see how Lon'qu is better than anyone in his tier. Gregor should also go down a fair bit.

I'm way too tired to actually argue for any of these so hopefully someone who agrees can elaborate, otherwise I'll try again after I sleep. Edited by Hawkeye

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Couple things

-Why is Gregor in B tier?
-Why are Chrom and Sully in S tier?
-Why is Frederick above Panne?

I know Frederick is clutch, but I don't think we can really ignore his dismal performance once we start the midgame, and how he's kinda average at best starting at Chapter 9 or so considering he has the shittiest EXP growth out of every unit ever. Maybe I just have the worst luck with his stats... Edited by Lord Raven

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I think Libra is a little bit too low. He's a rather durable healer with really nice bases (and C-rank staves for Physic) that shows up and easily usable for a long time afterwards. And durable is great for a healer, considering Lissa and Maribelle are made of paper. Nice attack as icing.

Anna is the only other character that might be dependable to not die super easily and support with Staves, but she's in her proper place (and she can't use Physics immediately). Edited by monkymeet

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Virion, Miriel and Vaike should be much higher, A tier at least. I can elaborate when I have time, but not just yet.

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I kind of think Brady should be at the bottom of all of the lists. I may be crazy, but it seems like no matter what you do, he starts frail and will never have a good offense, and there are no great magic users to be his parents that won't subtract from his already dismal speed (except the grandmaster of disaster) His only role I can see is as a low-tier staffbot who can't heal as much as her mother or Lissa or do as much damage as a promoted unit. Maybe my Brady is just bad, but it seems like this is true to me. Unless Inigo and Noire are that bad, which I wouldn't know, because I haven't used them. Edited by I don't play for turns

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[quote name='MercuryHg34' date='07 March 2013 - 06:47 AM' timestamp='1362656825' post='2309327']
Virion, Miriel and Vaike should be much higher, A tier at least. I can elaborate when I have time, but not just yet.
[/quote]

OK, so here's what I've got for these three.

Virion is a great support unit, and with a skill stat that's already pretty high and decent offence all you really need is a couple of speed wings (even just one) to make him two-shot most enemies. If you pair him with a spouse the results just get magnified.

Vaike is even better because even with just one secret book his skill becomes ridiculous for a unit of his type. Combined with really high HP and a great offence he becomes a really good warrior who can always land a hit and one-shot's most enemies, even against swords. His weakness to magic is offset by his HP and being paired with a good support like Kellam (to block, despite having no supports), Chrom, or Lissa.

Miriel should definitely be S tier at least. She may start off very squishy with not a lot of punch, but with the right support she easily becomes the best magic wielder in the game besides the Avatar imo. Magic is already OP in this game, and if you have her marry a male Avatar they are literally impossible to beat in the story mode, even assuming you don't spend much time grinding at all. She almost never misses, consistently has support attacks over 70% with the avatar either way when married, can one or two-shot everything, and has ludicrously high res by comparison to other magicians. Reclass to a Sorcerer and give her Ruin and she will land crits more often than not, meaning as long as she goes first she is pretty much guaranteed a kill. Her HP growth is not bad either, which helps offset her otherwise squishy attributes. Another option I've considered but never tried is Dark Knight with Levin Sword, but we all know that would be an obvious choice as a dark knight anyway.

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[quote name='MercuryHg34' date='07 March 2013 - 01:24 PM' timestamp='1362662699' post='2309355']
Virion is a great support unit, and with a skill stat that's already pretty high and decent offence all you really need is a couple of speed wings (even just one) to make him two-shot most enemies. If you pair him with a spouse the results just get magnified.
[/quote]
Virion is not really that great of a support unit. His main asset is the fact that he's very useful for chip damage in the first few chapters, but after that he's not doing very much. Even as a pair-up he gives... skill, which is kind of negligible compared to other characters like Lon'qu who are giving Speed. He's not on-par with any of the A-tiers, in the very least.

The other two are exactly where they belong, IMO. Vaike can be really great because as you said, he's 1HKO-ing stuff very easily after a few levels with a killer axe, especially mages. However, his speed is only so-so, so he's literally relying on killing enemies in one hit. Since his Defense and Resistance are not spectacular, if he misses, he's going to take quite a hit. In addition to this, none of his reclasses are mounts, so he's stuck with average mobility for a good portion of the game. Sure, he's good, but is he doing as much as Sumia and Cordelia? Probably not.

[s]i don't really feel like debating miriel, someone else do it for me[/s]

[quote name='Seven Deadly Sins' date='07 March 2013 - 07:07 AM' timestamp='1362640038' post='2309183']
Ricken is so far outclassed by both Avatar and Miriel (as well as the soon-to-arrive Tharja), and his stats are just so godawful at base that he's barely usable at all. Elwind isn't that good and it's better given to someone that can do something with it.
[/quote]
I think Ricken at least deserves to be higher than Donnel. He has that really short two-chapter period where he's useful (the desert chapters), at least. Edited by Agro

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Does somebody want to make a tier list of units based off their potential and only potential? ie, Donny would be top I'm guessing. And maybe put down their best class next to their name as well?

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[quote name='MercuryHg34' date='07 March 2013 - 08:24 AM' timestamp='1362662699' post='2309355']
Miriel should definitely be S tier at least. She may start off very squishy with not a lot of punch, but with the right support she easily becomes the best magic wielder in the game besides the Avatar imo. Magic is already OP in this game, and if you have her marry a male Avatar they are literally impossible to beat in the story mode, even assuming you don't spend much time grinding at all. She almost never misses, consistently has support attacks over 70% with the avatar either way when married, can one or two-shot everything, and has ludicrously high res by comparison to other magicians. Reclass to a Sorcerer and give her Ruin and she will land crits more often than not, meaning as long as she goes first she is pretty much guaranteed a kill. Her HP growth is not bad either, which helps offset her otherwise squishy attributes. Another option I've considered but never tried is Dark Knight with Levin Sword, but we all know that would be an obvious choice as a dark knight anyway.
[/quote]

Avatar paired up with anyone is already pretty much invincible and ORKOing literally everything by midgame. The main issue with Miriel going up this far for me is that Tharja is doing all of this just as well, and comes before Miriel has really hit her stride (though this is personal experience talking and I had a particularly bad Miriel). Miriel's bases really suck and she's limited to Virion-level chip to start out, though I'll certainly admit she can become a monster eventually. Most of the units in S are useful immediately.

Further nitpicks:

Ricken is a bad unit and an awkward one, but there's no way he's worse than Donnel. Even if Ricken is never deployed after chapter 5, he has some okay chip in that chapter that is probably better than anything Donnel is doing (which isn't much besides costing turns and providing useless pair up bonuses).

I'm surprised Libra is a whole tier under Anna. I know she's fast as hell, but Libra is pretty damn durable and has a better base staff rank. His growths aren't awe-inspiring, and his skills leave something to be desired, but when you get him I'd say he's better than Anna.

Henry is really low. He may be slow but he's not consistently doubled to start out (IIRC?). He can use Nosferatu, be promoted immediately (though I prefer not to), and has a ridiculous amount of Defense. I'm not saying he should be a ton better, mostly because of his terrible join time, but in my hardmode file (which admittedly I went slow on) my endgame team consists of a bunch of children, Chrom, Avatar, Panne and Henry, who ORKOs everything and has more defense than any of my non-overleveled-Kjelle units.

Olivia: She's a dancer. She is made of saving turns, if we care about that even a little, she should be higher.

In my experience Lon'qu is pretty good, but he seems maybe a bit high? It's hard for me to tell because I stuck him and Sully together for most of the game, which made him seem absurdly good. But I feel like his Str growth leaves something to be desired. Edited by Recondite

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Guys I'm pretty sure you're way underestimating Ricken. Like honestly, never even mind trainee crap like Donnel, but just look at the other mages. Avatar is god obviously, Tharja, sure, Henry, whatever; but how the hell is Ricken outclassed by *Miriel*, wtf?

We're assuming efficient play, yes? I don't even see how Miriel gets 2 levels in Chapters 2-4, but assuming she does (to catch up to Ricken's starting level), she:

* is [b]still[/b] less durable against physical units even if she procced HP and Def both times (and her Def growth is only 25% by the best information we have)

* has worse Mag unless she procced it both times, and will only barely outpace Ricken after that

* has better Res sure but that won't matter because you're going to be using units like Sumia to stomp whatever mages are around at this point in the game anyway (and probably for a long time after)

* still hasn't reached D rank tomes, while Ricken is all ready to go with Elwind (on a map with wyverns at that).

Basically, the only thing she has going for her in this comparison, AFAICT, is speed. Is that really supposed to dwarf everything else and put him at the bottom of the barrel while Miriel is in B?!? Her durability is barely even good enough for Normal, let alone Hard, and 1-2 range is largely wasted on units that can't survive enemy phase on the front lines.

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I agree with Zahlman. I've found Ricken to be very useful, especially with a +2 MT forged Elwind tome. He can OHKO wyverns in Ch7. Miriel gets too much hype, she can't really get a lot of levels in efficient play before Ricken shows up. I also definetely do not agree with Libra's placement atm or Lon'qu's. Lon'qu is better used as a pair up bot for his speed bonus anyway. Libra is the most durable Rescue staff user and can even do combat.

EDIT: Also, being outclassed isn't an excuse to throw someone all the way in the bottom. Since when do tier lists do that? Just because Makalov isn't the best FE9 mount option, it doesn't mean that he shouldn't be evaluated if one chose to use him. So even if Miriel outclassed Ricken, that doesn't mean he should be all the way in the bottom. He's more like mid tier. Edited by CordeliaxFrederick

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As people have said, Libra too low. Being outclassed by Anna isn't much of a reason considering you can (almost) never have enough Rescue. Plus he has concrete Hp/Def + Hammers + Physic while Anna has limited Levin Swords.

Olivia is too low (Dancing can be mostly replicated by Rescue, but they cost gold and there's a few things she does you'd need a huge number of Rescue staves to match), and certain low level combat units like Miriel (not any better than Ricken imo), Lon'qu (are we assuming Draco for him too?) are too high. In my experience, there's really not that much exp to go around before the stat curve is too high. But I suppose it depends on how fast you intend on going after Chapter 12 and buyable Rescue.

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[quote name='XeKr' date='07 March 2013 - 11:38 AM' timestamp='1362674295' post='2309504']
Olivia is too low (Dancing can be mostly replicated by Rescue, but they cost gold and there's a few things she does you'd need a huge number of Rescue staves to match)
[/quote]

More like "you'd need one of your Rescuers to have massive Mag and then why is that unit Rescuing instead of actually doing combat". With normal Rescue ranges, unlimited numbers of Rescuers don't help you set up a meaningful chain, but Olivia can basically double your Rescue distance.

Also, Anna isn't exactly terrible with ordinary swords either.

But yeah other than that I agree 100% with your post. Edited by zahlman

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I don't have the game, so no argument is mine (I will have it Friday though), but for now I suppose I can bring up points for when SDS was discussing this with me since I was asking questions. Could consider me a second voice for when he's not around, though I also can't read his head so if I got something wrong, he can pop up eventually and clarify.

For those of you wondering on Olivia's lowness, I asked him the same thing. His reasoning appeared to be that due to the nature of most maps being either route or...I forget which else along with the lack of seize maps, Olivia's not as useful as she would be, and that there is a severe amount of danger with enemies so she does not have as much room to maneuver, limiting how useful dance actually could be.

As for Ricken, I can't speak for myself, but I suppose the issue is how important is wyvern slaying? Cause cool if he can do it if we splurge +2 forge on him, but this won't help his long term which from what I understand is ruined by his awful speed. I dunno if Miriel will have the speed (or if her speed really makes the difference by that time, since I dunno shit about the game), but in the least I could agree with him being over Donnel who just seems like...Well, typical of a shitty base unit. Cause one shotting wyverns, even if only for a brief period of time, is still an actual use from which I understand Donnel does not have.

Can't speak on Anna and Libra. Didn't really ask about them.

Some examples on how these thoughts could be wrong would be appreciated, considering the list is just starting. Nothing is absolutely solid at the moment as we all know.

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[quote name='zahlman' date='07 March 2013 - 08:06 AM' timestamp='1362668775' post='2309412']
Guys I'm pretty sure you're way underestimating Ricken. Like honestly, never even mind trainee crap like Donnel, but just look at the other mages. Avatar is god obviously, Tharja, sure, Henry, whatever; but how the hell is Ricken outclassed by *Miriel*, wtf?

We're assuming efficient play, yes? I don't even see how Miriel gets 2 levels in Chapters 2-4, but assuming she does (to catch up to Ricken's starting level), she:

* is [b]still[/b] less durable against physical units even if she procced HP and Def both times (and her Def growth is only 25% by the best information we have)

* has worse Mag unless she procced it both times, and will only barely outpace Ricken after that

* has better Res sure but that won't matter because you're going to be using units like Sumia to stomp whatever mages are around at this point in the game anyway (and probably for a long time after)

* still hasn't reached D rank tomes, while Ricken is all ready to go with Elwind (on a map with wyverns at that).

Basically, the only thing she has going for her in this comparison, AFAICT, is speed. Is that really supposed to dwarf everything else and put him at the bottom of the barrel while Miriel is in B?!? Her durability is barely even good enough for Normal, let alone Hard, and 1-2 range is largely wasted on units that can't survive enemy phase on the front lines.
[/quote]

She gets chapters 2, 3, 4, and Paralogue 1 all before Ricken shows up. Two level ups between four maps sounds perfectly reasonable. You're also saying all she has going for her in the comparison is better speed, but being around for four more chapters to contribute sounds like another thing in her favor, also.

And her physical durability [i]is[/i] shit, but it's good enough to take one hit from just about anything on hard mode that early on. Unless Ricken is able to take two hits, which I don't believe is the case, his leads in HP and Def don't mean very much. Her lead in speed which can very realistically be the difference between getting hit once and getting hit twice when compared to Ricken, however, can situationally make her capable of getting hit once by something and living whereas Ricken might get doubled and die.

Sumia having good Resistance is not against Miriel in comparing Miriel to Ricken.

Assuming Miriel hasn't reached D rank in the four chapters before Ricken joins (is participating in 13 battles between four chapters really that unrealistic?), Elwind is all of one point stronger than Thunder, which is purchasable by then. Meanwhile, Ricken being all ready to go with that Elwind in his joining chapter? Unless he's doubling, he's not one rounding anything with it. But Avatar probably will be.

And that speed lead of hers is pretty cool because it lets her likely double a lot of enemies if she gets paired up with someone that boosts speed decently (Chrom, Avatar. Lon'qu, or Sumia by that point - surely ONE of them is available). Erstwhile, Ricken is joining with the same base speed as Virion and Kellam. And I'm not sure if it's the case that she'll have a D rank in tomes or not, but if she does, she's making MUCH better use of that Elwind also since she can double so much more easily. If not in Chapter 5, certainly by chapters 7 and 9. Pretty sure Ricken isn't doubling in those instances, although I could be wrong about that.

There are other things to consider in their placement on the tier list, also. Like how Miriel can go Dark Mage very effectively if you want her to while Ricken's class set is shit. 1-2 range is a waste on a unit that can't go to the front lines? Nosferatu fixes that [i]real[/i] quick.

I do think Ricken could stand to go up in the tier list, but comparing him to Miriel is not the way to go about it.

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