FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[dondon151]

Virion is kind of in a weird place. His long term viability is very low, but he's one of your early characters and can help with chip damage during a time where everyone else isn't quite up to doubling status. His contributions in Chapters 1 through 4 is easily a lot more worthwhile than whatever Ricken, and by proxy, Basilio and Flavia, can do.

reminds me of wolt in FE6 HM

[shadykid]

She'll be faced with near certain OHKOs/ORKOs if she ever enters combat, so that limits how she can move. She'll never catch up to mounted units to Dance for them, which is very problematic in large, open maps. If she ever wants to fix that, she either has to take the Boots (which show up in Chapter 17 and have a large cost associated with it), have her paired up with a mount to carry her to the main army (which wastes both the mount's AND her turn), or have someone Rescue Staff her up to the main army (more viable, but still a problem).

this shit happens in every other game with a dancer (except maybe Reyson against enemy sages for the ORKO part, lol)

Edited March 9, 2013 by shadykid

[Dark Sage]

I'd argue that if you let your dancer get attacked in the first place, you're doing it wrong.

I can buy Ricken, but I still can't buy Basilio and Flavia. I'll have to play it again whenever I get it back.

Dude

Basilio and Flavia join at the end of the game and they're basically easily replaceable combat units. It's kind of like Wolt vs Karel or something.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Tyrant Sage

[Espinosa]

I'd argue that if you let your dancer get attacked in the first place, you're doing it wrong.

But there are plenty of benefits in exposing your dancer to enemy phase combat so that they're in range to help you reach the map objective next turn. This is why giving a dancer a robe is a choice often contributing to efficiency.

[Titamon]

I found protecting the dancer a lot more tedious in Awakening compared to other games in this series.

[bottlegnomes]

Dude

Basilio and Flavia join at the end of the game and they're basically easily replaceable combat units. It's kind of like Wolt vs Karel or something.

I'm not saying they're good. I just don't see how mediocre chip damage for 2-4 chapters is better than being a good filler. Plus they join slightly earlier than Karel and actually have some use (since they can counter at range and don't have constant WTD). It's probably more like a worse Shinon (Virion may not leave, but he's still not getting used for very long) vs a better Largo.

Plus they have a free deployment chapter where they can get a few ORKOs

Edited March 9, 2013 by bottlegnomes

[Redwall]

I found protecting the dancer a lot more tedious in Awakening compared to other games in this series.

Yeah, the wide-open maps tend to put Olivia at a disadvantage if you adopt the tier list playstyle of eschewing Rescue-skipping, since you could instead field capable combat units. Olivia is comparatively more useful in Lunatic due to the smaller number of viable combat units you're likely to have, but I feel her position here is fair.

[bottlegnomes]

Also, what's the thinking on the children?

[eclipse]

Also, what's the thinking on the children?

Other than Lucina, they're in their own separate class of "we dunno what to do with you".

[bottlegnomes]

Oh, I meant the order, unless you mean they aren't ordered, which would make sense.

Edited March 9, 2013 by bottlegnomes

[eclipse]

Oh, I meant the order, unless you mean they aren't ordered, which I could see.

They're unordered on the basis that the guys making the list don't know what criteria to use to order them (or something like that).

[Titamon]

If we're ordering the kids then Inigo is right where he needs to be, at the very bottom. Unless you can figure out how to power level Olivia without grinding, his base stats will be super bad. And his join chapter is a nightmare too.

[Sol Hiryu]

In actuality, the kids are technically already tiered in their own separate list, it's just that there's too many variables to allow them onto the list proper. But yes, the general thinking is the easier their paralogue is, the sooner you can get them and have them be worth something.

It doesn't account for who their father is, but then you can probably just assume Avatar and have it somewhat equal or something. I don't see the kids getting tiered onto the regular tier list anytime soon, so the separate list is appropriate.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Sol Hiryu

[bottlegnomes]

They're unordered on the basis that the guys making the list don't know what criteria to use to order them (or something like that).

That would make sense. I have a feeling the kids are going to be a shitstorm when it finally gets to them. Thanks for the answer.

If we're ordering the kids then Inigo is right where he needs to be, at the very bottom. Unless you can figure out how to power level Olivia without grinding, his base stats will be super bad. And his join chapter is a nightmare too.

Completely at the bottom? He's got decent class options and Olivia has some good potential husbands, which could help him. Honestly, I think Noire and Brady should be below him. That said, I'll refrain from the kids until we learn the game a little better.

Edited March 9, 2013 by bottlegnomes

[Paperblade]

He has one of the hardest paralogues and pairing up Olivia is a pain in the ass unless it's with Chrom, plus she probably won't be passing down anything useful (Luck +4 omg so useful)

[simmeh]

You know, I have a half-formed argument in my head that's basically Kellam > Gaius, but ultimately that Kellam could stand to bump up.

A large part of the argument is simply that Kellam is a better Thief than Gaius is. Kellam is 55/65/60 Str/Skl/Spd as a Thief while Gaius is 60/70/70, but Kellam is 60(!!!)/35 Def/Res compared to the 30/20 of Gaius, not to mention Kellam retains the +2 Defence ability to (slightly) mitigate the initial shock of the reclass. For reference, Lon'qu, has 55/75/75/30/25 Str/Skil/Spd/Def/Res (though also 55 Luck compared to 35 of Kellam/Gaius). Going Thief also solves Kellam's movement issues that are inherent to being an Armour Knight in this series. The argument basically boils down to Kellam becoming much more effective offensively if he's reclassed while still retaining some of his defensive attributes. The real question becomes whether those changes make his offensive abilities effective enough, and whether it's worth the defensive sacrifice.

I can definitely see the glaring problems with this theory, though. Kellam is obviously not getting the first Second Seal, and he's getting bumped back to an E-Rank weapon after he finally does get his hands on one. The class change between Knight and Thief also has a really nasty -5 Str/-9 Def, which may be completely untenable (by my estimation that'll put him back down to 8 Str and 5/6 +2 Def if the change is done at 10). Finally, Thief utility itself seems pretty insignificant, as I can't remember too many times where there were chests that were absolutely vital, and the game hands you Anna for when there is something worth going out of your way for.

So yeah, I'm not necessarily making the argument, just throwing the idea out there, maybe for analysis by someone who's better at this stuff than I am.

On the subject of Bronze weapons, though, I would also postulate that this might make Arms Scrolls worth somewhat more than previously. Maybe its just my personal experience talking, but in other FE games I almost always saw Arms Scrolls as an afterthought (with rare exceptions, such as FE9 Mist) because a D Rank in a weapon was good enough to use Steel, and now you need D to even use Iron. Again, this is just something I'm putting out there. I generally enjoy reading tier list topics, but I don't have the patience to form nitty-gritty arguments of my own.

And now that I'm on a roll, I have another question: which characters besides Panne are serious contenders for early Second Seals?

[Florete]

He has one of the hardest paralogues and pairing up Olivia is a pain in the ass unless it's with Chrom, plus she probably won't be passing down anything useful (Luck +4 omg so useful)

Isn't even that really difficult and restrictive unless you use male Avatar and kill off/don't use Sully, Sumia, and Maribelle? Or marry them off in advance, I guess, but I, at least, don't tend to get most marriages that fast. Or is there some easy way to do Chrom x Olivia that I missed?

At least for Brady you can clear his Paralogue in one turn. Noire...well, that's debatable.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Dark Sage]

And now that I'm on a roll, I have another question: which characters besides Panne are serious contenders for early Second Seals?

Sully likes one to go Wyvern Rider (she doesn't give a shit about E Axes because Strength +2 and Discipline). Vaike gets a big boost from a Second Seal because he can go Barbarian and fix his speed and later promote to Berserker. Miriel likes a seal to go Dark Mage and Gregor can do alright as a Myrmidon (and apparently a Barbarian) but they can do well enough in their base classes.

[grandjackal]

There's also the issue of the children of Avatar+Panne, as the Taguel children having any reclass option and the combined superpowers of these gods wanting a second seal.

Though unlike those mentioned above...They do have the problem of weapon rank. In the least, you can get Morgan immediately once children maps become available. Yarne's kinda has to wait...I think.

Still new to the game, still nothing substantial to actually say, other than Great Knight as a class seems to have awful speed growth...Which I feel is stating the obvious.

[Espinosa]

Still new to the game, still nothing substantial to actually say, other than Great Knight as a class seems to have awful speed growth...Which I feel is stating the obvious.

According to the site, it's 15%, which is only 5% less compared to Paladins and losing just 10% to the speediest classes like Assassins and SMs. So don't blame the GK growths, blame yourself or god luck or individual growths. Though the info we have might be off.

[Blademaster!]

I have three things to say:

1. I think we should at least try to work some of the children into the tier list over time. If their parents are married off, you can get Owain, Cynthia, Laurent, Brady (can be reached if Morgan's paralogue is open IIRC), Kjelle, Morgan, and Sereva (you need her paralogue open to reach Cynthia and Owain IIRC) right away, and they have the easiest kid chapters baring Sereva. If you're worried about eugenics, then only just mention if there is a particular paring that stands out above/below the rest, which shouldn't be hard to do in a no grind run of hard mode.

2. Can we at least have some sort of range of turn count used to complete each chapter?

3. Why is Nowi so low?

[Florete]

Pretty sure the information on the site is wrong about Brady's Paralogue since I could only access it with Ch 16 despite having both Olivia and Avatar married. It is across the ocean, after all.

I would guess Nowi is low because of awful Spd and low base level preventing her from re-classing any time soon. Probably mediocre durability, too.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

According to the site, it's 15%, which is only 5% less compared to Paladins and losing just 10% to the speediest classes like Assassins and SMs. So don't blame the GK growths, blame yourself or god luck or individual growths. Though the info we have might be off.

Well, I have a 12/7 Great Knight Sully is packing a wonderful 14 speed, which is actually really intollerable (imo). Like, I could give her Lon'qu support, she still won't double much if anything.

I think I might need to restart. Made several mistakes and I'm paying real hard. I've gotten to chapter 19, and though I feel I fucked up, I do also feel like several factors have carried me almost effortlessly. I haven't played the full game, but just some...initial thoughts. Feel free to take what you will from them, but don't take them as real arguments. If it does bring up something interesting to talk about, of course speak up. But as for thoughts...

-Anyone else think Dark Knight is an absolutely ridiculous class? Tharja is a juggernaut as this class, at least for a good while (I find her needing speed supports more and more, though she doesn't lack in durability. She strikes me as a strong midgame unit that might have a problem or two lategame), and even Miriel can be pretty unstoppable. Though speaking of Miriel...

-I don't like Miriel. She's a pain in the ass to train up, and is a lot like Lou from FE6. I hate Lou. She's the speed mage, but she never actually starts fast enough so she takes forever to actually get fast enough. On top of this, her magic might for a good while is severely lacking. Class changing her to a Dark Mage did not help things, though ultimately once you get her to Dark Knight, she basically is another Tharja. So I can't say she doesn't pay off in the end, but it's a big pain until then. I could think of several situations where I could have ditched her early for someone better performing. I'd say she deserves to be below Tharja, or at least right next to her. I would say to have her wed early though. Like, be able to go right to her son's paralogue once kids become available sorts of early. Her son strikes me as someone who can potentially be good, but only if gotten early. I made the mistake of partnering her up with Henry. Pleasantly surprised by his supportive prowess, disappointed how late that S came.

-Panne needs to be above Fred, there aren't even words.

-I haven't used Stahl, but I find Lon'qu's early strength combined with a really beefy speed support make him pretty usable at least for a good while. Perhaps he and Stahl are good partners?

-I feel Henry could stand to go above Nowi, if only cause he's an awesome mage support. Promote him to Sorcerer (he starts levle 10), let him hold onto a Ruin tome, pair him up with a Dark Knight, watch magic ensue. He doesn't really ever need to fight personally, just needs to supply a mage with some extra beef and stronk, and have him use Ruin so that about half the time he joins in an attack, he just critkills so he..kinda...supplies more defense this way by helping to avoid counterattacks. Rare, but it's a nice bonus. Nowi's support isn't all that useful, and neither is her combat. Was never particularly impressed with Nowi, unless I completely missed something. Perhaps a proper pairing could help her. Her 1-2 range with speed is great, but it's...As a note, I'm not sure how good her kid is. Since she's like a Taguel kid, I assume she can just use a Second Seal and become a monsterous beast as another class, but looking at her paralogue...uhhh....

[Espinosa]

Wouldn't Tharja prefer access to dark tomes over a mount/extra defence? Too bad Sorcerers don't get staves like they did in the DS games.

About Panne, is it her growths that make her so good as a draco? She's basically a much faster Cherche with better availability. I also like how Hammers share rank requirement with Iron Axes, gotta help out with those AKs.

[grandjackal]

Wouldn't Tharja prefer access to dark tomes over a mount/extra defence? Too bad Sorcerers don't get staves like they did in the DS games.

I have found the mobility more useful. Lack of dark tomes is only a minor annoyance.

About Panne, is it her growths that make her so good as a draco? She's basically a much faster Cherche with better availability. I also like how Hammers share rank requirement with Iron Axes, gotta help out with those AKs.

Well, two things. First off, I got her to 10 ASAP, which is around the time you get your first change seal. Taguel bases as a class are god awful, so a promotion to Dracoknght functions almost like a promotion, where she is good everywhere but has a notably great Str base. Growths+leveling speed of being a level 1 base class makes her pretty impressive.

To further her function I did something...Silly. The first Paralogue where you meet Anna (but not the one where you recruit her), you rescue 3 civies (I think that's Anna's? Could be different), to which you get a Seraph Robe, a Log and a Ladle. The Ladle...Is the important part. Forge it to max might, and it's 6 mt. It totaled to 750. It's 1 less mt than an Iron Axe, but comes with 2 benefits. It has 10 more uses, and it's E rank. Considering she was able to one shot mages with it, I found that to be pretty substantial. By the time it broke, she was at D rank for Iron and Hand Axes.

Once she hits D rank, she's pretty much the perfect unit. She has the best combat parameters, and can function is a great support for units that are also great (Avatar, Yarne, Morgan). Example of her and Yarne, I had Yarne class change over to Myrm, and with her support flying him around, he was still capable of ORKOing with Bronze as a Myrm (He wasn't fast enough to fly like his mom). Since Yarne is also amazing...

Like I'd go as far to say that she deserves to be in the same tier as Avatar.