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If using Virion is desired, you can do Virion!Yarne which is effectively the same as Stahl!Yarne, then do Stahl!Inigo, which is effectively a straight upgrade to Fred!Inigo in Apo (but without Griffon Rider). Or you can give Virion to Severa, but it sounds like you want a change for her; or Brady, who doesn't really mind losing 1 point of speed.

Edited by soly

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18 hours ago, Ezrius said:

I really appreciate your replies.  I’m looking forward to this run and feel a lot more confident in my team now.

I'm going to echo the idea that you should use a bunch of staffbots. I frequently run 6 combat pairs, 2 rallybots, Olivia, and 5 staffbots. Having a resuce staff for each combat pair is really good, and Olivia gives some flexibility for your staffbots and rallybots (or a combat pair if she's close enough).

I'm also sorry for only skimming things, but I'm gonna suggest some things you can take or leave. You've probably moved away from the first thing you posted, but I think you should consolidate on 4 child pairs to field.

You should bring Chrom/Sumia, Robin's pair (looks like Lissa, which is fine. She has galeforce which helps), and 4 children pairs. Lucina's pair and Morgan's pair are near guaranteed to be brought, and then you pick from Severa, Noire, Cynthia, or Kjelle's pairs. Lon'qu!Severa is really cool and lets you run Wyvern Lord as a lead with a supporting Berserker and hit 75 speed, then you pick the final pair that gives you something unique. It'll probably look like:

Bow Knight Chrom/ Dark Flier Sumia
Grandmaster Robin / Dark Flier Lissa
Wyvern Lord Severa / Berserker Yarne (just make sure he gets some +hit. Libra, Henry, Ricken, Stahl, and Virion give it in some form)
Valkyrie Morgan / Dark Knight or Sage Brady (I'm a fan of mobility and you have enough pairs to fight bosses, but it's up to you. This pair will just sweep mooks and maybe let Morgan fight bosses.)
Sniper Lucina / Berserker Gerome (Anathema helps, good job putting Henry as the father)
final pair???

I saw that you're looking to get a trickster in there and I'd suggest Noire as the trickster with Owain supporting her, but it's up to you. Levin Sword is great for chipping away at Thronezerker because his resistance is low and Aegis only blocks tomes, and I think Gaius!Noire hits a good speed number to make it work.

Edited by Bane

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Hey all! I'm looking to start a new file and take on the Apotheosis DLC. I've been theorycrafting for a while and nothing has been set in stone yet, so I'm looking for some suggestions or advice, mainly for the parenting and class/skills setup.
Gregor!Laurent and Vaike!Nah have been left out, since they didn't fit in. Also, besides the Chrom and Lucina pairs which feature Dual Strike+, the dual strike rates range from 94-97%. Am I right not to worry too much about this?
Furthermore, Sumia, Lucina and Morgan reach (at least) 75 Spd for Anna with their respective pair-ups. Would it be worth it for Noire, my only Sniper, to lose Anathema and gain All+2, so she reaches the 75 Spd threshold as well?

Sumia @Dark Flier - LB/GF/Luna/TF/All+2
Chrom @Bow Knight - LB/Agg/BF/DS+/Charm

Sumia!Lucina @Great Lord (Boots) - LB/GF/Aether/Luna/DS+
+Skl/-Def MaMU @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hit+20/All+2

Chrom!Cynthia @Dark Flier - LB/GF/Aether/Luna/TF
Ricken!Owain @Sage - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/TF

Sumia!Lucina!Morgan @Dark Flier - LB/GF/Aether/Ignis/TF
Libra!Brady @Sage -LB/GF/Agg/Luna/TF

Donnel!Kjelle @Paladin - LB/GF/Luna/Astra/SF
Stahl!Inigo @Hero - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/AF

Lon’qu!Severa @Wyvern Lord - LB/GF/Vengeance/LF/All+2
Henry!Gerome @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hex/Anathema

Gaius!Noire @Sniper (Boots) - LB/GF/Luna/BF/Anathema
Virion!Yarne @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hit+20/All+2

Olivia @Dancer - LB/Special Dance/SF/All+2/Bond
DLC Elincia @Valkyrie - LB/TF/Mov+1/Acrobat/Charm
DLC Micaiah @Valkyrie - LB/TF/Mov+1/Acrobat/Shadowgift
DLC Katarina @Valkyrie - LB/TF/Mov+1/Acrobat/Shadowgift
DLC Celica @Falcon Knight - Rallies: Spectrum/Skl/Lck/Def/Res
DLC Palla @Falcon Knight - Rallies: Heart/Str/Mag/Spd/Mov

Thanks in advance for any replies!

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Firstly, it's worth noting that going in no-holds barred, with all DLC skills, Brave weapons, and Rally skills, will make Apotheosis a lot easier for you. Enough that most pairings and setups will be able to clear the map with only a minimum of difficulty.

With that said, here are your general notes:

First, don't worry much about 94-97% dual Strike rates. You have to push really, really hard to hit 100% without Dual Strike+.

On 75 Speed:

Spoiler

75 Speed units are primarily valuable for fighting and doubling 70 speed enemies, of which there are two (three): Anna (wave 5 boss), and Nightmare Sniper (Wave 2 boss, reappears in wave 5). The former has Counter and the latter has 70 def and only like 46 Res, so melee units (like Lucina @ Great Lord) don't really want to be fighting them. They can, especially Nightmare Sniper who can't retaliate at 1 range, but if you can get 75 Spe on a magic unit instead, that might be better. 75 Spe Sniper x Berserker is also popular for taking out Anna in one round. Physical units like Wyvern Lord LQ!Severa... honestly don't care as much. It's still good, just not as good as a 75 Spe Sage, Dark Flier or Sniper would be. Someone like Lon'qu!Brady (or Virion!Brady) with a pocket Dark Flier can pull this off; or Owain can carry All Stats +2 with a Dark Flier.

Also, Sumia!Lucina!Morgan-F (Skl/Def) inherits only her mother's +5 Spe. If Dark Flier, she's not fast enough to take a Sage and hit 75 Speed. I believe you meant Sumia, Lucina, and Severa.

As for Noire, drop Anathema. If you want her at 75 Speed, you can put in All Stats +2; if this is not important to you, you can slot in Astra to complement Luna; if both are important, you can afford to drop your weaponfaire since you still have AS+2; alternatively, Vengeance only requires one skill slot, leaving space for both AS+2 and Bowfaire; her final option is to forego the Longbow and pick Bow Knight, which offers mobility, Pavgis control and one more point of speed, letting her hit 75 speed naturally.

 

On Snipers:

Spoiler

Snipers are favoured units in Apotheosis due to their Longbow access, which allows them to attack at 3 range without fear of retaliation. If you're concerned about only having one sniper, Chrom converts easily and performs admirably, sporting a 100% dual strike rate backed by a magic pair-up (Sumia), as well as very potent combat skills in Aether and Luna. Set would probably be Limit/Aether/Luna/Aggressor/Dual Strike+. Sumia would still skirmish against mooks very well, and Chrom would gain Longbow poke/kill ability.

On Luna, Vengeance, and Severa:

Spoiler

I see you've opted for Luna as a proc on everybody except Severa, including Sniper Gaius!Noire (remember that Gaius!Noire has Vengeance, Luna, and Astra). Just because everyone recommends LQ!Severa, and it is very strong, doesn't mean you should feel forced into Vengeance Wyvern Severa. Do realise that Vengeance can prevent Severa from engaging units with Counter, and that 75 speed is honestly a bit wasted on a physical melee unit. (People do LQ!Severa anyway because she's also excellent for challenge runs.)

If you simply prefer to run Luna on your units, Vaike and Stahl are her primary Luna dads, while Ricken!Severa is her versatility dad, able to pull off Paladin, Sniper, Sage, Bow Knight, and Dark Flier (though I'm not a fan of Ricken!Severa since it feels a bit wasteful to me). I personally prefer Virion!Severa; Vengeance is very potent on Snipers (read as: Noire), who don't need to fear retaliation, and in addition to Sniper, Virion!Severa can run Wyvern, Sage, Bow Knight, and Dark Flier.

As for your pairings, you don't have any pairings which are actually bad, so yay for that.

General details:

Spoiler

 

Donnel!Kjelle can afford to run Lancefaire for a bit more damage. Stahl!Inigo can afford to pack Paladin for mobility and +Str on pair up, but Hero's fine if you like it. Inigo in general only really cares about getting Luna and Vengeance and can settle for any Luna or Vengeance dad, so while Stahl!Inigo is very good, it's spending a high-demand Stahl dad on an Inigo who doesn't care that much. You can do it if you like the supports/want Sniper Inigo/like the hair/want a fast Paladin. Just be aware that he can take a lower demand dad like Fred, Libra or even Kellam and still come out fine as long as he has his proc.

Virion!Yarne has Hit+20 to boost his hit and can carry Prescience (Archer 10 skill) over All Stats +2 for +15 more hit on Player Phase; he really doesn't need Noire to carry Anathema. If you shuffle Virion over to Brady, then Yarne wants a dad who can offer +Hit skills. Archer (Stahl, Virion, Ricken) is his preference if possible, and Fred!Inigo works well to shuffle Stahl to Yarne. Alternatively, Dark Mage +hit auras are a good secondary option (Libra, Henry). If all else fails, he can take a mods-only dad and still do well. Look for Str and Skl (Fred, Gregor).

If it were me, I'd try to fit Lon'qu or Virion on Brady to get +Spe; but +Mag is a good secondary choice for Brady. Up to you how much you care.

Lastly, most people will say not to pair Laurent with Nah so that all your pairings have Galeforce. If you're set on benching them, it doesn't really matter, but if you want to keep their long-term potential, consider pushing your pairs around to accommodate them. Gregor!Laurent is an excellent and versatile support who pairs well with any Galegirl, while Nah is a custom-built support who wants a Galeboy (Morgan-M, Owain, Inigo or Brady) and a father who gives her the stats and classes to complement said Galeboy. Vaike!Nah is a fantastic physical support and pairs off well with physical Inigo or Morgan-M; her major magical option is Henry, who passes Valkyrie and a critstacking weirdbuild.

 

 

Edited by soly

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Thanks a lot for your feedback! Very informative and in-depth :)

I've opted for most of your suggested changes, mainly switching the dads of Inigo, Yarne and Brady around. SumiaxChrom I feel I mostly have to play around with to figure out what I'd like best (DFxBK or DFxSniper). I also switched around some pairings for marginal dual strike changes and personal preferences.

It currently looks like this:

Spoiler

Sumia @Dark FlierLB/GF/Luna/TF/All+2
Chrom @Bow KnightLB/Agg/BF/DS+/Charm

Sumia!Lucina @Great Lord (Boots) - LB/GF/Aether/Luna/DS+
Henry!Gerome @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hex/Anathema

Chrom!Cynthia @Dark Flier - LB/GF/Aether/Luna/TF
Virion!Brady @Sage - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/TF (now getting to 75 Spd)

Lon’qu!Severa!Morgan @Dark FlierLB/GF/Ignis/Luna/TF
Ricken!Owain @Sage - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/TF

Donnel!Kjelle @Paladin - LB/GF/Luna/LF/SF
Frederick!Inigo @Hero - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/AF

Lon’qu!Severa @Wyvern Lord - LB/GF/Vengeance/LF/All+2
+Skl/-DefMaMU @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hit+20/All+2

Gaius!Noire @Sniper (Boots) - LB/GF/Vengeance/BF/All+2
Stahl!Yarne @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hit+20/Prescience

+ the exact same Staff/Rallybots

However, I've also given the Nah/Laurent situation some thought. While 'wasting' them doesn't sit right, using them feels like it takes away at the team for Apo. I could change it up and use the above team, with the following changed/added:
Sumia!Lucina @Sniper - LB/GF/Aether/Luna/DS+
Gregor!Laurent @Sage - LB/Agg/TF/All+2/Anathema

Frederick!Inigo @Paladin - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/LF
Vaike!Nah @Hero - LB/AF/All+2/Anathema/Deliverer

Donnel!Kjelle @Paladin - LB/GF/Luna/LF/SF
Henry!Gerome @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hex/Anathema

LucinaxLaurent seems pretty good (I liked Great Lord on Lucina, but Sniper looks like it'll get the best out of the pairing). However, Kjelle and Inigo (due to Nah not having Aggressor) look less potent and I would probably leave Kjelle and Gerome out of the team (their combined skill is relatively low, equaling 128). I rather like the fact I wouldn't be 'wasting' units though and it could be I'm underestimating these pairings. What's your opinion on this and/or what changes would you suggest?
Edit: As I thought about it, I could switch around Vaike and Henry and go Fred!Inigo @Hero x Henry!Nah @Valkyrie with Donnel!Kjelle @Paladin x Vaike!Gerome @Berserker. It would leave Gerome with low hit, but amazing Str. Anyhow, just going over some options..

Edited by Relapse

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2 hours ago, Relapse said:

Thanks a lot for your feedback! Very informative and in-depth :)

I've opted for most of your suggested changes, mainly switching the dads of Inigo, Yarne and Brady around. SumiaxChrom I feel I mostly have to play around with to figure out what I'd like best (DFxBK or DFxSniper). I also switched around some pairings for marginal dual strike changes and personal preferences.

It currently looks like this:

  Hide contents

Sumia @Dark FlierLB/GF/Luna/TF/All+2
Chrom @Bow KnightLB/Agg/BF/DS+/Charm

Sumia!Lucina @Great Lord (Boots) - LB/GF/Aether/Luna/DS+
Henry!Gerome @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hex/Anathema

Chrom!Cynthia @Dark Flier - LB/GF/Aether/Luna/TF
Virion!Brady @Sage - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/TF (now getting to 75 Spd)

Lon’qu!Severa!Morgan @Dark FlierLB/GF/Ignis/Luna/TF
Ricken!Owain @Sage - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/TF

Donnel!Kjelle @Paladin - LB/GF/Luna/LF/SF
Frederick!Inigo @Hero - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/AF

Lon’qu!Severa @Wyvern Lord - LB/GF/Vengeance/LF/All+2
+Skl/-DefMaMU @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hit+20/All+2

Gaius!Noire @Sniper (Boots) - LB/GF/Vengeance/BF/All+2
Stahl!Yarne @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hit+20/Prescience

+ the exact same Staff/Rallybots

However, I've also given the Nah/Laurent situation some thought. While 'wasting' them doesn't sit right, using them feels like it takes away at the team for Apo. I could change it up and use the above team, with the following changed/added:
Sumia!Lucina @Sniper - LB/GF/Aether/Luna/DS+
Gregor!Laurent @Sage - LB/Agg/TF/All+2/Anathema

Frederick!Inigo @Paladin - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/LF
Vaike!Nah @Hero - LB/AF/All+2/Anathema/Deliverer

Donnel!Kjelle @Paladin - LB/GF/Luna/LF/SF
Henry!Gerome @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hex/Anathema

LucinaxLaurent seems pretty good (I liked Great Lord on Lucina, but Sniper looks like it'll get the best out of the pairing). However, Kjelle and Inigo (due to Nah not having Aggressor) look less potent and I would probably leave Kjelle and Gerome out of the team (their combined skill is relatively low, equaling 128). I rather like the fact I wouldn't be 'wasting' units though and it could be I'm underestimating these pairings. What's your opinion on this and/or what changes would you suggest?

I like Bow Knight better for Chrom, but it's all good no matter what.

Swapping Lucina from Great Lord->Sniper is extremely powerful and I'd recommend it over Great Lord. If you like how Great Lord works don't feel bad about using it, but Sniper's a little better.

You should definitely bench a child pair so you keep all your staff/rally bots (I'd drop another pair and use 2 more staffbots personally) because staffbots make Apo runs, but that's up to you. Out of those three pairs you listen I'd take Lucina's pair and drop the other 2.

We're in the land of minor tweaks so feel free to do whatever makes you happy, I'm just suggesting more staffbots because 5 staffbots and 2 rallybots are amazing when you spread yourself out around Apo's map.

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9 hours ago, Relapse said:

using them (Nah and Laurent) feels like it takes away at the team for Apo.

Let me confirm this for you. It is true. In Apo, you usually don't want to field too many combat pairings, because it takes away from your support unit structure (rescue staves and rally bots). 4-6 combat pairs (8-12 units) is a good range.

If Apo is your only goal then don't feel bad about letting Nah and Laurent warm the bench. I'm only saying that if you ever want to switch up your team for fun, or use a different kid setup, or do other maps, then Nah and Laurent will appreciate being part of a pair with Galeforce. Notably, also, you can always build Nah and Laurent as staffbots. They won't be as good at it as spotpass units, but they'll be fine.

Inigo and Nah's support chain is horrendous, which is actually one reason I don't normally recommend Vaike!Nah.

Lon'qu!Severa!Morgan has 4 Str/0 Mag/10 Skl/6 Spe; I feel like she shouldn't be in a magic-focused class like Dark Flier. A powerful physical class like Wyvern Lord or Sniper, instead, might be called for. Carry dual procs (Luna, plus Astra or Ignis) to take advantage of your incredible Skl mod.

Sniper is one of Sumia!Lucina's best sets - she prefers pocket Berserker to pocket Sage, but it's not like Gregor!Laurent (and Henry!Gerome, too!) can't do both sets. If you like Great Lord, though (and it is a very cool class) it's honestly fine to do that. If you're concerned about not having enough Snipers, you can do Sniper Morgan, but neither is Sniper a necessary class, just a good one.

In general though, Bane is right; we're more or less in the land of minor tweaks now so do whatever makes you happy. If it means Great Lord Lucina, well, Great Lord is cool.

One thing I'm curious about - why +Skl Asset? It's not a bad choice, just that it mostly gets chosen when you have something specific you want to do with the +2 Skl (like reaching for 100% Dual Strike without Dual Strike+).

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Thanks for the comments!

I think the main thing that has changed for me is the vision I have; what am I really going to use this team for? Obviously trying to clear Apotheosis, and if (when) I succeed, I might try to make it harder on myself. Moreover, I'll be doing the other DLC maps and will be grinding a lot (I'm a bit of a completionist as well, gotta have all those acquirable skills..at least for the parent units who don't have that many classes). Therefore, I decided to pair all the kids off in a useful way, possibly forgoing some 'best' units/pairs but generally getting the most out of them all, which really is the most useful and fun for the way I'm going to use them. I also took flexibility into account, meaning pairs can change their classes and function differently, and have put a slight emphasis on supports and classes I just like more. After all, these classes are changeable and I think useable in Apo nonetheless.


I came up with the following:

Spoiler

Sumia @Dark Flier - LB/GF/Luna/TF/All+2
Chrom @Bow Knight - LB/Agg/BF/DS+/Hit+20

Sumia!Lucina @Dark Flier - LB/GF/Aether/Luna/DS+
+Skl-DefMaMU @Grandmaster - LB/Agg/TF/Hit+20/All+2

Sumia!Lucina!Morgan @Sniper - LB/GF/Aether/Luna/AT
Gregor!Laurent @Berserker - LB/Agg/TF/All+2/Anathema

Chrom!Cynthia @Dark Flier - LB/GF/Aether/Luna/TF
Virion!Brady @Sage - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/TF

Lon’qu!Severa @Wyvern Lord - LB/GF/Vengeance/AF/All+2
Frederick!Inigo @Hero - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/AF

Gaius!Noire @Sniper - LB/GF/Vengeance/BF/Mov+1
Stahl!Yarne @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hit+20/All+2

Donnel!Kjelle @Paladin - LB/GF/Luna/Astra/LF
Henry!Gerome @Berserker - LB/Agg/AF/Hex/Anathema

Ricken!Owain @Dread Fighter - LB/GF/Agg/Luna/TF
Vaike!Nah @Hero - LB/AF/All+2/Anathema/Deliverer

Sumia!Lucina went Dark Flier since I would have lacked some magic otherwise (and has 76 Spd) . MaMU would probably prefer Sage, but I like the class diversity. If GM doesn't cut it, I can always change it (and also go Sniper/Great Lord x Berserker while I'm at it). Sumia!Lucina!Morgan is a 75 Spd AT Sniper, a unit I just really want to use and seems incredibly potent (Laurent only has Anathema since Hex works just for adjacent enemies). Cynthia and 75 Spd Brady are rather straightforward. SeveraxInigo have some nice supports and they seem to be a great physical GF-pair. Noire and Yarne are pretty much unchanged (and FWIW, I feel like making Noire a Bride outside of Apo). KjellexGerome and OwainxNah will probably be benched. I realize Ricken!Owain x Vaike!Nah aren't the best pair, but it's kindof 'best of the rest' and it gives me an excuse to make an Apo-unused, rather subpar Owain an awesome Dread Fighter.

Olivia @Dancer - LB/Special Dance/SF/All+2/Bond
DLC Eirika @Valkyrie - LB/TF/Mov+1/Acrobat/Rally Heart
DLC Elincia @Valkyrie - LB/TF/Mov+1/Acrobat/Rally Heart
DLC Lyn @Valkyrie - LB/TF/Mov+1/Acrobat/Rally Heart
DLC Micaiah @Valkyrie - LB/TF/Mov+1/Acrobat/Shadowgift
DLC Katarina @Valkyrie - LB/TF/Mov+1/Acrobat/Shadowgift
DLC Celica @Falcon Knight - Rallies: Spectrum/Skl/Lck/Def/Res
DLC Palla @Falcon Knight - Rallies: Heart/Str/Mag/Spd/Mov

Sticking to DLC characters, I've added Eirika and Lyn, leaving the only DLC girl with a negative Mag mod (Catria) left unused. I don't know if I will need them all, but that's the thing. I've played through Awakening multiple times on Hard and Lunatic and have cleared some DLC maps, but never even tried Apo. I need to find out what works and doesn't work for me by actually playing the map. I can't change parents or pairs in hindsight though, and I like all this theorycrafting, so I might be overpreparing, but I suppose I really just need to try it out and adjust accordingly.

Still, any minor tweaks - as you guys put it - on these builds would be welcome! I took the 'do what you like'-advice to heart, but if I could improve overall on certain pairings/skill sets that would be good.

As for the +Skl asset, I like the higher proc activation chance and dual strike rates. I don't feel I need +4 Spd from choosing a +Spd asset, nor do I like locking MU and Morgan into either Mag or Str oriented classes. In my current setup MaMU is a GM while also being able to run Berserker, while Morgan is a Sniper who could go Sage. Although +Str could be useful, since MaMU marries Lucina which has DS+ anyway and also uses swords as a GM, while Sniper Morgan might appreciate the +4 Str and still gets +2 Skl to boot.. I might actually change it now that I think of it.

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+skill is fine. You could take +str or +spd but Morgan will be fast enough at +6 speed and +4 str will end up at +1 after dragonskin/pavise reduction...we're in the minor tweak territory so it's fine.

...Morgan gets enough skill that she might be able to run 100% Dual Strike with Laurent in Hero or Assassin...but it's too late at night for me to run the math.

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I have been attempting a Lunatic+ run with pairings that give canon hair colours (aside from Cynthia cuz Chrom/Sumia) and have skills that somewhat make sense for their personalities but also make them viable for Apotheosis. I feel that most of my pairings just tend to make sense in general too? 

*If anybody has any suggestions for skills, I'm happy to hear them. However, I have already married most of my units, so any pairing suggestions will likely go ignored for awhile. I am thinking Chrom/Olivia with a FMU to marry Inigo next playthrough though.

 

+Spd/-Luck MMU - Sorcerer w/LB, Armsthrift, TF, Hit Rate +20 (for Mire bombing from afar), Sol

*Still deciding on a match for him. Debating Lucina though so Morgan could have good Spd. 

 

Chrom - Great Lord w/LB, RK, DS+, DG+, Aether

Sumia - Falcon Knight w/LB, Healtouch, LF, GF, Luna

 

Lissa - Sage w/LB, Healtouch, TF, GF, Miracle (cuz no attack skill :[ )

Henry - Sorcerer w/LB, Anathema, Lifetaker, Wrath, Lethality (cuz it's bloody)

Henry!Owain - Sorcerer w/LB, Vantage, TF, GF, Vengeance

 

Sully - Paladin w/LB, Defender, Swordfaire, Dual Guard+, Luna

Donnel - Hero w/LB, Armsthrift, Underdog/Aggressor, Counter, Sol

 

Miriel - Sage w/LB, Focus, Lifetaker, Tomebreaker, Vengeance

Ricken - Dark Knight w/LB, Defender, Tomefaire, Hit Rate +20, Luna

 

Maribelle - Valkyrie w/LB, Dual Support+, Renewal, Galeforce, Rally Resistance (no attack skill :[ )

Libra - War Monk w/LB, Healtouch, Renewal, Tomebreaker, Vengeance (I really don't know what to do with Libra)

 

Panne  - Taguel w/LB, Deliverer, Beastbane, Pass, Lethality (since she's a deadly taguel)

Stahl  - Paladin w/LB, Defender, SF, Hit Rate +20, Astra

 

Cordelia - Falcon Knight w/LB, Armsthrift, LF, GF, Sol

Gaius - Assassin w/LB, Locktouch, SF, Pass, Lethality

 

Nowi - Manakete w/LB, Deliverer, Lifetaker, Lancebreaker, AS +2

Vaike - Hero w/LB, Gamble, Axefaire, Counter, Sol

 

Tharja  - Sorcerer w/LB, Anathema, Lifetaker, Hit Rate +20, Vengeance

Lon'qu - Swordmaster w/LB, Deliverer, SF, Vantage, Lethality

 

Olivia - Dancer w/LB, Special Dance, SF, GF, Astra

Virion - Sniper w/LB, Deliverer, BF, Hit Rate +20, Rally Skill

 

Cherche - Wyvern Lord w/LB, Deliverer, Renewal, Iote's Shield, Miracle

Gregor - Dread Fighter w/LB, Armsthrift, SF, Counter, Sol

 

Sumia!Lucina - Great Lord w/LB, RK, DS+, GF, Aether

MMU - Sorcerer w/LB, Armsthrift, TF, Hit Rate +20, Sol

 

Henry!Owain - Sorcerer w/LB, Vantage, TF, GF, Vengeance

Gaius!Severa - Hero w/LB, Armsthrift, Swordfaire, GF, Sol

 

Virion!Inigo - Hero w/LB, Armsthrift, Swordfaire, GF, Sol

Chrom!Cynthia - Falcon Knight w/LB, Defender, LF, GF, Aether

 

Libra!Brady - War Monk w/LB, Healtouch, Renewal, GF, Luna

LQ!Noire - Swordmaster w/LB, Anathema, BF,  Hit Rate +20, Lethality

 

Gerome - Wyvern Lord w/LB, Armsthrift, Axefaire, Counter, Sol

Morgan - Swordmaster w/LB, Armsthrift, SF, GF, Astra???

 

Stahl!Yarne - Taguel w/LB, Deliverer, Beastbane, Wrath, Astra

Vaike!Nah - Manakete w/LB, Armsthrift, Wyrmsbane, Counter, Sol

 

Ricken!Laurent - Sage w/LB, Focus, TF, Hit Rate +20, Luna

Donnel!Kjelle - General w/LB, Armsthrift, LF, GF, Sol

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Bane said:

...Morgan gets enough skill that she might be able to run 100% Dual Strike with Laurent in Hero or Assassin...but it's too late at night for me to run the math.

She actually does with Laurent in Hero, great catch! A good enough reason for me to stick to +Skl over +Str.

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On 6/7/2018 at 5:22 AM, Ragna_Oblivion said:

I have been attempting a Lunatic+ run with pairings that give canon hair colours (aside from Cynthia cuz Chrom/Sumia) and have skills that somewhat make sense for their personalities but also make them viable for Apotheosis. I feel that most of my pairings just tend to make sense in general too? 

*If anybody has any suggestions for skills, I'm happy to hear them. However, I have already married most of my units, so any pairing suggestions will likely go ignored for awhile. I am thinking Chrom/Olivia with a FMU to marry Inigo next playthrough though.

Okay, see, here's the problem.

(1) Lunatic+. Apotheosis doesn't scale with difficulty. Grinding your stats for it on Luna+ is just annoying.
(2) What do you mean, skills that make sense for their personalities? That literally doesn't mean anything.
(3) Apotheosis has a 20 unit limit. You're not bringing the parent units in, so we don't care about them beyond knowing which kids have which parents. Exception: Chrom, his wife, Olivia for Dancer utility, and sometimes Robin's partner if 1st gen.

More general advice:

In Apo it helps to have combat support backing your actual combat units. That means of your 20 unit spots, you won't be bringing 20 combat units that fight the enemies in Apo. Usually 4-6 combat pairs is a good number (8-12 units), leaving the rest for Rally users, Olivia, and staffbots for healing and Rescue mobility.

Unlike the rest of the game ever (Awakening is the poster child for Enemy Phase defensive play), Apotheosis is a very player-phase offensive map. Your goal is to hit as hard as possible, as fast as possible, and get out without drawing fire. You can go without being attacked on enemy phase at all. Obviously this isn't the only possible strategy (Enemy luring and specialty Vantage/Vengeance setups are things that exist). But the most straightforwards strategy is to cram your units with heavy player-phase offense setups and use your staffbots to Rescue them out of trouble if necessary.

Additionally, effectively infinite prep time means you can afford to walk in with the best equipment. That means forged Brave weapons for everyone and forged Celica's Gale for the spellcasters. Dark Magic is basically not even a footnote in this map - some specialty strategies use it, but by and large it's not a thing.

As such, favoured classes in Apo have a heavy focus on combat damage - Sages and Dark Fliers for your spellcasters; Wyvern Lord, Hero, Paladin, Sniper, on the fighters; Berserkers and Sages as hard supports. I haven't listed every useful class, but I think I've hit the high notes. There are middling notes like Bow Knight and Warrior, I'm not gonna bother thinking of all of them. Assassin is a very fast specialty class.

Certain classes are disadvantaged and not commonly seen in Apo. Falcon Knight is used for staff utility and never as a combat class. War Monk has pretty much zero reason to be used. Swordmaster is never seen due to Assassin being flat-out better in basically every way. Low Str and Mag doom the Trickster. Taguel is irredeemable in every way. Manakete loses brave weapon access and bulk doesn't matter in Apo, so it sucks too (also competing with Sniper as a physical Aegis-hitting means it has no use either). Dark magic isn't useful in Apo, so Sorceror's major selling point over Sage stops mattering and its lower stat caps start becoming a big deal.

In Apo, character skills will usually be set up as follows:

Galegirl (eg. Sumia!Lucina): Limit Breaker; Galeforce; weaponfaire; stable proc (Luna or Vengeance); procstack (only if Luna; stack Aether, Astra or Ignis) or other filler (eg. Anathema, Deliverer)

Galeboy (eg. Lon'qu!Brady): Limit Breaker; Galeforce; Aggressor; weaponfaire; stable proc (Luna or Vengeance)

Hard support (eg. Henry!Gerome): Limit Breaker; Aggressor (if male); weaponfaire; two filler skills (three filler if female hard support) (+hit skills like Hit+20/Prescience on Berserkers, Dark Mage auras, All Stats +2). Hard supports basically always want to marry a unit with Galeforce (so pairing Nah with Yarne is usually a bad idea).

Staffbot (eg. Spotpass Nanna): Healtouch, weaponfaire (Lancefaire Falcon Knight with Shockstick or Tomefaire Valkyrie), whatever filler (Charm, Anathema, Acrobat on Valkyries, Mov+1).

Skills you want to ignore are... pretty much everything I didn't list, but here are the notable ones. Sol is worthless because your damage is relatively low so your healing will be lower, and you have Fortify staffbots to heal you anyway. Renewal is worthless for the same reason. Counter and Lethality are worthless because every enemy has Dragonskin. Armsthrift is unimportant because you have infinite prep time to forge massive numbers of Brave weapons. Pavise, Aegis, and Dual Guard+ are worthless because you have staffbots to heal you to full HP after every battle, so they don't matter if they trigger... and if they do matter when they trigger and save a unit's life, it's because you screwed up and left that unit in danger of death.

Here is the post with my recommended parentage for kid units - I should have listed basically all the Apotheosis-viable parents for every child unit. Think I got them all. It just links to page 314 of this thread.

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Hey guys, I recently finished my first lunatic playthrough and feel like all my kids turned out pretty well so I'm going to go for my first full DLC/Apo clear on this file. Hoping you guys can help me decide on 2nd gen pairings (no S-ranks yet). I realize that going in with LB, Agg, rallies etc. will trivialize the difficulty somewhat but I'd like to have pairings that allow for some flexibility and possible challenge runs down the road. Here's what I'm thinking so far:

+Mag-Def FeMU x Ricken!Owain - I still haven't decided on a Dad for Morgan, but Owain gives the highest mag mod and FeMUxOwain would be a very strong magic pair in its own right.

Chrom!Lucina x Gregor!Laurent - Primarily classed as Sniper/Berserker, but DS+ also makes VV feasible.

Chrom!Cynthia x Ricken!Owain!Morgan - Mostly debating between this or Lucina x Morgan. Cynthia works pretty well as a Sage, Dark Flier or Sniper while Morgan would be a Sage.

Gaius!Noire x Stahl!Yarne - Another Sniper/Berserker pair. 

LQ!Severa x Henry!Gerome - Wyvern Lord/Berserker. I did LQ!Severa without knowing about the 75spd Wyvern Lord so that worked out. I've only really used her as a dodge tank so far.

Donnel!Kjelle x Virion!Brady - This was kind of a 'leftovers' pairing. I've been enjoying using Kjelle as a Bride and have been using Brady as a mix of Sage, Dark Knight and Dread Fighter. 

Vaike!Nah x Libra!Inigo - The other leftovers. I haven't used Nah much at all and have only used Inigo as a VV sorc. 

For Apo I guess I would probably end up benching at least Nah and Kjelle's pairs (not sure if it's crazy to consider benching a double GF pair) in order to end up with 5-6 combat pairs including Chrom x Sumia. 

Other Questions:

Brides and Dread Fighters: Noire, Kjelle, Owain and Brady have spent most of their time in these classes, how doable are they in Apo? 

Anna: I've been thinking about bringing Anna as a Trickster staffbot, mostly just because I like her and used her a lot in the main story. Will having 2 less movement than mounted units make a big difference? 

Boots: I still have both boots and I can't decide between giving them to the front line or giving them to say Olivia and Anna. Thoughts?

Mixed Pairs: This might be a dumb question, but are pairs ideally pure magic or pure physical damage?

Lastly, FE:A is my first FE game (crazy, I know) and I was wondering if you lovely people had any suggestions for other particularly great games in the series or similar TRPGs.

Thanks for reading.. Cheers! 

Edited by MmmMapleSyrup

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5 hours ago, MmmMapleSyrup said:

Hey guys, I recently finished my first lunatic playthrough and feel like all my kids turned out pretty well so I'm going to go for my first full DLC/Apo clear on this file. Hoping you guys can help me decide on 2nd gen pairings (no S-ranks yet). I realize that going in with LB, Agg, rallies etc. will trivialize the difficulty somewhat but I'd like to have pairings that allow for some flexibility and possible challenge runs down the road. Here's what I'm thinking so far:

*snip*

Pairing overview:

Spoiler

+Mag-Def FeMU x Ricken!Owain - Mag/Def MU-F passes +2 Spe to Morgan-M for a +3 mod. Also a massive +9 magic. +Speed is actually probably preferred here but they're fine.

Sumia!Lucina x Gregor!Laurent - Gregor!Laurent is versatile and can support both physical and magic Lucina builds, as well as enabling V/V setups if you want to. They're fine.

Chrom!Cynthia x Ricken!Owain!Morgan - Morgan-M wants Sage. +3 Speed lets him hit 75 Spe with LB + Rally + pocket Dark Flier. They're fine.

Gaius!Noire x Stahl!Yarne - No major comments. Recommend you swap Yarne to support Severa, though.

LQ!Severa x Henry!Gerome - LQ!Severa's flagship is Wyvern, but for challenge runs she also has Lancebreaker Hero. This is good. I'd strongly consider swapping Gerome out for Yarne: LQ!Severa doesn't care about Henry!Gerome's Mag support ability like Virion!Severa cares; Stahl!Yarne represents an accuracy upgrade over Henry!Gerome while offering the same damage. Henry!Gerome is flexible and can go to support nearly any other galegirl.

Donnel!Kjelle x Virion!Brady - Kjelle @ Bride passes advantageous stats to Brady, but receives Mag in return. While Virion!Brady appreciates getting +Mag, but fails to hit 75 Speed with Bride's +7 pair-up (LQ!Brady can, but Virion!Brady needs Dark Flier's +3). You can try Hero or Bow Knight in place of Bride for the extra speed.

Vaike!Nah x Libra!Inigo - Vaike!Nah is an intensely physical support with Axefaire General and Hero. This is problematic, because you don't have any physical-bias galeboys. Libra!Inigo has a slight magic/Sage bias, but Inigo's natural class set is also intensely physical (Warrior, Assassin, Hero, Bow Knight, Axefaire, Swordfaire). He can take Nah @ Hero for his Sage sets (though he doesn't benefit amazingly) and either Hero or General for his physical ones.

The recommendation is usually 4-6 combat pairs, filling out the rest of your units with supporting abilities like rallies, rescues, and Olivia. Chrom/Sumia can be considered a combat pair (Sniper lead/Bow Knight hard support x Dark Flier or Sage), or Chrom alone can be a support unit.

Possible changes:

(You're in the realm of small tweaks already and can do nearly anything within reason.)

Spoiler

First, as above, I recommend you move Yarne to support Severa. Mechanically there are no major trade-offs: Severa loses Gerome's Hexathema auras, but her support (Yarne with Hit+20 and Prescience; if you can, have him inherit Lancebreaker from Panne) becomes more accurate in exchange. This is a minor change, but it gives Gaius!Noire a more versatile support - she can Sniper x Berserker, 75 speed Bow Knight x Berserker, 69 speed Sniper x Sage, or try a no-Tomefaire Dark Flier with a pocket Sage.

That said, you're probably guaranteed to bring two magic pairs (MU/Owain and Cynthia/Morgan) and one physical pair (Severa/Yarne or Gerome), as well as one versatile pair (Lucina/Laurent can switch between physical and magical at will, but can't do both at once). And Chrom/Sumia which is either a mainly magic pair (Dark Flier or Sage/Bow Knight) or a mixed one with Sniper Chrom leading sometimes. That's five combat pairs already. So you want to decide (1) what Lucina and Laurent are doing, and from there (2) if you need another magic pair or another physical pair; or if you have enough combat units. Let that be the major factor in deciding how you pair off your remaining units - if you need a physical pair, lean towards Kjelle with a Berserker or Inigo; if you need a unit which can pull off both physical and magic, lean towards Inigo; if you need a Sniper, look at Noire; if you need a spellcaster, look at Brady; if you think you need a pair which can do both physical and magic at the same time... maybe Inigo or Brady. Pair off the unit which you think you'll need most, first. Then pair off the remaining ones.

 

Virion!Brady is a slight issue since you have a lot of magic boys to pair off with a lot of physical girls, and while Bride is a good option it requires Lon'qu!Brady to gain the full, 75 speed benefit. You have a couple of options: dropping his Tomefaire for All Stats +2 means he loses 3 Mag, but gains enough speed to pair off with Bride Kjelle or Noire (plus he's still getting +Mag from his pair-up). It's a good option and probably my recommendation. Alternatively, you can also try pushing Vaike!Nah to Brady - she's the only dedicated hard support girl and doesn't care about not getting +Str from Brady to hit harder. The flipside is that you lose the weaponfaires for Bride, so something like Axefaire Hero would be the setup of choice. Brady keeps his Tomefaire, but loses the +Mag from getting a Bride (-4 Mag while in front). Once you start doing challenge runs Brady starts carrying Tomefaire even with a Bride, so maybe this isn't as good a choice.

Mechanically, Libra!Inigo doesn't really care if he's supporting Noire, Nah or Kjelle since he has the physical and magic sets to work with any of them. The Inigo/Noire and Inigo/Nah support lines are really bad though, so if that matters to you, strongly consider Inigo x Kjelle.

Henry!Gerome (remember that Stahl!Yarne is now with Severa) wants a Galegirl (so either Noire or Kjelle) but doesn't care too much which one he gets. If you decide to keep Severa with Gerome, then you have Stahl!Yarne here. He can still take either Galegirl, but may favour Kjelle's intensely physical class set over Noire's Sniper access (which opens up the possibility of Sage pair).

Noire's major options are the ones she has weaponfaires for - Sniper, Bow Knight, Assassin, and Bride - and she should be able to support any of Gerome, Inigo, and Brady well. I would personally suggest, however that you keep her away from Brady.

Kjelle has Paladin, Assassin, Wyvern Lord, Hero, and Bride. She's fine with anyone, too.

Nah wants to support either Brady or Inigo, since she lacks Galeforce; but has only physical sets. Only having Axefaire limits her options further to Hero and General. She probably prefers Inigo here.

 

Since Nah is the limiting factor here I'd decide if I want to push her to Brady or Inigo first; then append the other Galeboy to Kjelle or Noire and push the remaining girl to Gerome. Because Nah's physical support x magic-bias galeboy is a prime candidate for hitting the bench, I'd probably do Inigo x Nah and bench them. Then Brady x Kjelle or Noire as a Bride. Pair the remaining girl with Gerome and bench this pair, too.

Your alternative is to bench Gerome + Nah forever by pairing them, then pair off the other two galechildren. The main downside to this is that Gerome and Nah will never be useful. If you do this, then you probably want Inigo x Noire and Brady x Kjelle. Again, if supports matter to you, then do Inigo x Kjelle and Brady x Noire; the main difference is that Noire loses Sniper x Berserker.

Other questions:

Spoiler

Brides and Dread Fighters: If you bring them, they can work. Brides are a little niche but work very well within that niche: Lance + Bow gives them physical PavGis control; Staffs allow them to play secondary Staffbot, and their notable pair-up bonuses are +Mag/+Spe despite being a physical class, so there's the niche to pair off with a spellcaster. That gives them some relevance despite slightly middling stats. (Though you do have the problem of not getting +Str from your caster buddy.)

In contrast, Dread Fighter is a combat class with no major utility. Levin Swords and Bolt Axes lose Brave damage so aren't amazing outside no-Brave weapon runs, and the Dread Fighter's Mag is below average, so while there's still some element of PavGis control it's not as potent. Dread Fighter also has some weird pair-up bonuses: +8 Str/+6 Mag/+6 Spe/+8 Res; very few units are poised to take advantage of that scattered spread. If pairing up with a spellcaster, your Dread Fighter's Mag is already on the low side; the +Spe is low enough that you might get better use out of something like Hero for speed, or Sage for +Mag. If pairing off with a physical unit, Assassin or Paladin become premier options. It's not bad, it does its job decently. The thing is, I feel like it's a class which tries to do too much and just ends up a little outclassed at everything by a lot of things, and you should never need a class that does everything it's trying to do. It does pair decently with Bride, but then Bride is moving out of its own niche, a little, so the overall effect is a little mediocre.

Anna: Anna has Mov+1/Acrobat Sage for 7 Mov (Trickster has lower Mag, especially after Tomefaire and possibly Valflame). A typical logbook staffbot will be a Falcon Knight or Valkyrie with natural 8 Mov, usually with Mov+1, then logbook-bootsed in addition for 11 Mov total (boots the unit, save unit to logbook, save game to different save slot, load first save slot, re-hire unit from logbook. Instant bootsed unit without boots consumption!). So you lose 4 Mov in total, not 2.

I mean, you can totally do this. It should still be fine. In fact, it's a fantastic ----ing idea and I'm totally gonna do this, too, Anna's awesome.

Boots: No thoughts from me, sorry. I heard Olivia is one of the best candidates for bootsing. But you can probably also just do it to your favourite units. One setup I've seen used Boots Maribelle, but it was sort of a specialised one. Don't boots hard supports, they need to be in front to give a ----.

Other games: I played the GBA games before Awakening. I enjoyed them, but the gameplay is somewhat different. You can give FE8 a shot; it's probably the easiest in the series. Get used to GBA mechanics then try FE6 or something.

On mixed pairs:

Spoiler

The general rule is to try to stick to one damage type on a unit. You get to hit harder as a pure unit (Berserker 50 Str, Wyvern Lord 48 Str, Sage 46 Mag) than as a mixed one (Dark Knight 38 Str/41 Mag iirc; Dread Fighter is 42/38). There is the versatility argument, but by and large you can work around it by choosing your targets properly - look at skills before sending your units at that enemy.

With pairs it's a little harder to say. To start, a lot of enemies have some kind of defensive bias (Nightmare Sniper, the most extreme example I know, has 70 Def and 46 Res, so he's a lot more vulnerable to magic damage). So it's nice if both your units hit the same defensive stat. Maybe not essential but very nice.

What's probably more important is that your combat pairs have stat synergy, i.e. the support passes stats that the lead wants, and in a double galepair, ideally both units pass stats that the other wants (for example, Berserker, a physical class, passes +10 Str +8 Spe on pair-up; while something like Paladin is probably a premier physical galeboy class, with high mobility, decent stats, and a stellar +7 Str/Skl/Spe/Def stat pass). This is why you get primarily physical x physical pairs and magical x magical ones. One of the few notable exceptions is Sniper x Sage, which combines the Sniper's potent 3-range ability with the stopping power of the Sage's magical Dual Strikes. The downside to this is that the Sage (if not hard support) doesn't get really good stats from the sniper and also doesn't pass Str or Spe to them.

There are other exceptions - Hero and Bow Knight pass +8 Skl/+8 Spe (Hero passes Def and BK passes Mov in addition) which is why you see people recommending Bow Knight Chrom as a hard support to magic combat Sumia. Bride is a physical class which passes +7 Mag/Spe (the flipside is that they won't often get their desired +Str from a magical partner). And of course a hard support doesn't actually care what stats they're getting from their partner since they're never leading.

 

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16 hours ago, MmmMapleSyrup said:

+Mag-Def FeMU x Ricken!Owain 

Chrom!Lucina x Gregor!Laurent 

Chrom!Cynthia x Ricken!Owain!Morgan 

Gaius!Noire x Stahl!Yarne 

LQ!Severa x Henry!Gerome 

Donnel!Kjelle x Virion!Brady

Vaike!Nah x Libra!Inigo 

Lastly, FE:A is my first FE game (crazy, I know) and I was wondering if you lovely people had any suggestions for other particularly great games in the series or similar TRPGs.

Thanks for reading.. Cheers! 

Soly's advice for 4~6 combat pairs is really good and after that I recommend 5 staffbots, 2 rallybots, and Olivia. Dropping the boots on Olivia is good because it gives you more flexibility with staffbots or rallybots and otherwise I'd drop a pair of boots on a non-mounted pair.

I say:

Bow Knight!Chrom x Dark Flier!Sumia (mobility, Sumia gets 75 speed and Chrom uses his Bowfaire)

Dark Flier!Robin x Dark Knight!Brady (I value the speed more than the power on Morgan. It's fine for a double galepair to just sweep up mooks and you don't need 75 speed for that. For Robin and Brady who will have to make sacrifices to reach 75 speed, don't worry about it and stick to mooks)

Sniper!Lucina x Berserker!Gerome (Lucina is a good boots candidate, I but Gerome here because he has higher base power than Laurent while Laurent has more skill)

Dark Flier!Cynthia x Grandmaster!Morgan (Remember what I said with Robin and Brady sacrificing to hit 75 speed? Either Cynthia or Morgan can hit 75 speed depending on whether Morgan is Grandmaster or Sage and I think Cynthia hitting 75 speed is more important than Morgan having it)

Wyvern Lord!Severa x Berserker!Yarne  (full physical set with 75 speed on Severa and Vengeance proc. It's good).

Sniper!Noire x any of the other boys (all the other boys have Berserker + auras and sage. 2 of them have Galeforce and one of them doesn't, but by not taking Galeforce you invest more in damage...look just pick your favorite and go with it.)

So yeah, there's a rough framework you can build on but everything is fungible so you can change things if you want.

If you're looking for other similar FE games, Fates is pretty similar (especially birthright) and Echoes might still be fun. If you're looking for other franchises: Super Robot Wars can be good (J is a good entry point), since you have a 3DS you might want to try Project X Zone 2 (the first game is ok, but not nearly as fun), Final Fantasy Tactics games can be fun (my favorite is A2 on the DS).

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Wow thanks for the awesome responses! That was way more info that I was expecting I'm glad I asked. After thinking over everything you both said I think I've settled on pairings/classes for my first run:

Dark Flier!FeMU x Sage!Brady

Sniper!Lucina x Berserker!Laurent 

Dark Flier!Cynthia x Grandmaster!Morgan

Wyvern Lord!Severa x Berserker!Yarne

Noire x Gerome

Kjelle x Inigo

Nah x Owain

The first 4 pairs will be the main core, and I have enough flexibility with the others that I can maintain a balance between magical/physical depending on what Lucina and Sumia's pairs want to do. I think I'll start with those 4 plus Dark Flier!Sumia x Bow Knight!Chrom, Olivia, and a bunch of bots. If I need 1 more physical pair I'll add Sniper!Noire x Berserker!Gerome.

Swapping Brady in with Robin results in Morgan gaining +4skl/+2spd for -2mag, good call on that one, but unless I'm missing something Sage!Brady hits 75spd exactly without giving up anything (55 base + 12 from rallies/tonic +8 from DF = 75). Is the Dark Knight just a mobility preference with Deliverer or something like that? 

I decided to keep Laurent with Lucina because I know I'll want to play around with VV at some point, and Gerome gives Noire all kinds of options as Soly pointed out. I always considered Morgan a lead in my head so I'm glad you mentioned Grandmaster, I'll definitely try that so I can compare to Sage!Morgan. I also hadn't thought of bringing Chrom as a lone support instead of as part of a pair with Sumia; Great Lord passing +9spd could make for interesting shenanigans. Kjelle and Inigo looks like a fun backup pair; Inigo can go Berserker if physical is needed or use AS+2 to hit 75spd as a Sage with Dark Flier!Kjelle. I'm sure I'll experiment with bringing Noire and Kjelle as Brides at some point as well. As for Nah and Owain I'll just keep him as a Dread Fighter and use them for non-Apo things. 

Thanks for the feedback! Other thoughts and criticism definitely welcome. 

 

Edit: Oh and I'm giving Anna some boots and bringing her along for the ride 'cuz she's a boss. 

Edit2: Just realized that while Owain is a slightly weaker Berserker than Inigo, he has access to Archer and can still hit 75spd as a more powerful Sage if going the magic route. Wondering if the extra +10hit (7.5 net given Inigo's higher base skill) is enough reason to swap their partners.

Edited by MmmMapleSyrup

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Very good catch on Robin x Brady, @Bane. I often take the Robin pair to be relatively inviolable because it's often player preference and didn't even think about shifting RObin to pair off with someone else. Completely agree, inheriting Brady's +Spe is much more valuable for Morgan than Owain's +Mag.

Yeah, I can confirm Bane loves to do Brady @ Dark Knight for the horsie mobility. I'm not a fan, personally; I think that Brady's ability to inherit +Spe means he's really too good as a Sage with a pocket Dark Flier or Valkyrie (requires LQ!Brady). You're correct in that Virion!Brady @ Sage with a Dark Flier pocket hits 75 speed exactly, which is why Virion and LQ are Brady's recommended fathers. IMO Owain makes a better Dark Knight, he doesn't care about the speed drop, has more Mag to work with Dark Knight's lower Mag cap (compared to Sage) and satisfies his Sword Hand. (Unfortunately Stahl!Owain does not have access to the class.)

When I said bring Chrom as a "lone support" I meant leave his wife at home and cart him around as a supply bot; you always want S-rank support pairs. (The supply bot thing is most common with Olivia marriages, except that Olivia comes along to dance instead of staying at home. The thing is, though, Chrom is a really good combat unit, both as a lead due to Aether + Luna and as a support due to Dual Strike+ which is why I don't really like Olivia x Chrom.) Chrom's other option with Sumia is Sniper x Sage, by the way. Bane favours Bow Knight which is still exceptional, giving Sumia 75 Speed. But for me the punching power of Sniper Chrom is always the way to go. (I may be biased because I do Chrom x Maribelle and Mari doesn't lead nearly as well as Sumia does, so Bow Knight is worse on her.)

Kjelle usually never wants to be Dark Flier due to -1 Mag modifier and no Tomefaire. If he's pairing with Kjelle, Inigo should prepare to be always physical unless Kjelle is picking Bride (All Stats +2 Inigo @ Sage can still do 75 Speed with a Bride). Berserker almost never wants to lead; lead Berserker needs to fix 35 Skl, which forces him to carry Luna for high proc rate, and his girlfriend to carry Anathema/Hex/Dual Support+ for increasing his hit rate since he doesn't have room for it (Limit/Aggressor/Axefaire/Vengeance/Galeforce); it's doable, but a little niche and Berserker lead sucks if you do anything else. If you're talking about hard support berserker Inigo, that's a lot better, though with the caveat that he's dropping Galeforce.

Dark Knight might be a thing on Owain, but Owain @ Dark Knight has 36 Str and 46 Mag. As a Dread Fighter he's 40 Str/43 Mag. Up to you. I like the idea of Dark Knight, though.

Regarding Owain, Inigo, and Kjelle, it's a good observation that Owain is more accurate due to archer access. But you do lose power; Ricken!Owain's Str mod is -2 which honestly feels very bad to use, he's weaker than an enemy Berserker mook. Libra!Inigo at least has that +1. More importantly, though, are the knock-on effects on Kjelle. Inigo has good physical sets (Hero, Assassin, Bow Knight, Warrior) to work with physical Kjelle as a double Galepair with complementary stats, and he can still Sage x Bride. Ricken!Owain should basically never be going physical because of his pretty bad Str, but Kjelle is always physical, so you're locking them to Sage x Bride. 7.5 support unit accuracy on a set Kjelle probably won't ever use isn't really worth it.

2 hours ago, MmmMapleSyrup said:

Edit: Oh and I'm giving Anna some boots and bringing her along for the ride 'cuz she's a boss. 

----, I need to up my game. Operation Robin x Anna is a go.

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1 hour ago, soly said:

When I said bring Chrom as a "lone support" I meant leave his wife at home and cart him around as a supply bot; you always want S-rank support pairs.

Ahhh OK, that makes sense.. in that case I doubt I'll ever demote Chrom to pack mule status. I'm planning on trying out Sniper!Chrom, especially since Noire has other options. Aether + Luna has been nasty on Sniper!Lucina in my experience so far. 

1 hour ago, soly said:

More importantly, though, are the knock-on effects on Kjelle. Inigo has good physical sets (Hero, Assassin, Bow Knight, Warrior) to work with physical Kjelle as a double Galepair with complementary stats, and he can still Sage x Bride.

Good point about the class set. I was thinking of something like Paladin!Kjelle x Berserker!Inigo as a physical set (Inigo support). Am I right in thinking that Berserker is the most logical support option for a no-holds run, or is the idea that one of the other classes allows you to keep GF? Seems like it would be the most raw damage whereas the others would be more useful for hitting thresholds for specific reasons or challenges once skills start being removed (ie. Assassin for the extra speed). Bride!Kjelle also definitely makes more sense than a -1 no faire Dark Flier so I'll leave Kjelle x Inigo as is. 

1 hour ago, soly said:

Operation Robin x Anna is a go.

Yeppp! Gonna do this at some point, although I think my next one will probably be a Robin x Aversa to see what I can do with Shadowgift. 

 

Edited by MmmMapleSyrup

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If Inigo is running a hard support set (Limit/Aggressor/Axefaire/Hex/Anathema) then he's fine and Berserker is the best physical hard support class due to very high Str and advantageous stat passes. The problem here is that he's wasting Galeboy potential.

If he wants to Galeforce lead then Berserker suddenly starts getting dragged down by a bunch of issues related to its low Skl cap - low proc rate, accuracy issues, and a ~3% dual strike rate penalty (the low proc rate doesn't matter as a hard support, and not carrying Galeforce + proc means he can bring +hit skills).

You can work around them if you really want to, but for the most part Berserker isn't used as a lead.

Spoiler

Your skill slots are limited like I said (Limit/Axefaire/Aggressor/Galeforce/Vengeance is a lock) so a lead Berserker will need to make up for their accuracy issues. Usually that means a girlfriend with Dark Mage for +hit auras, but she has 5 skill limit, too, so it's annoying. Someone like single-proc Severa (Vaike's Luna or natural Vengeance) can pull it off, or a hard support/soft lead with Dark Mage (eg. non-Galeforce Noire). Forging accuracy axes may also be a good idea.

 

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Missed the speed on Dark Flier, oops. So I guess Brady x Robin could hit 75 speed.

When you see the power of 9 move paired with 9 move and flying, it's hard not to recommend Dark Flier and it's part of why I recommend Bow Knight for Chrom.

If you're looking for a physical support to a Sniper that still lets the Sniper hit 75 speed while also boosting the Sniper's strength, please consider Paladin. Ricken!Owain gets paladin and provides +7/+7/+7 Str/Skl/Spd. Sniper Gaius!Noire falls 1 speed short of 75 with a Berserker anyway (I have a chart up this time so it's not as seat of the pants as yesterday's advice, and Gaius!Noire hits 44 (base) +10 (LB) +2 (tonic) +10 (rally) +8 (Berserker pair up) = 74, 73 with Paladin) so if she takes AS+2 it works out. Paladin Owain also has fewer speed problems because he has more skill in Paladin and he'd be using a different weapon type (swords) that have higher hit. Paladin's a bit slow, but it still hits the 66 speed threshold to never be doubled, so Owain can charge in, kill a mook, then switch to Noire to take her 2 turns with a Brave Bow or Longbow depending on circumstances. You'd end up with:

Gaius!Noire @Sniper: LB,GF,AS+2,Luna,Bowfaire/Astra (run the math for average damage and pick the better one)

Ricken!Owain @Paladin: LB,GF,Agg,SF,Luna/Vengeance

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Ricken!Owain still has -2 Str, so I still don't like anything on him that isn't a primarily magical class.

If the turn ends on Noire, then the next turn begins on Noire and paladin Owain can't go charging around. Paladin Owains want Stahl, anyway.

I mean, I can kind of see how Sniper x Paladin works, I just don't know if I'd recommend it; I don't feel like it's playing to the full strengths of the Sniper class. Sniper/Hero is a very high Skl pair that can aim for 100% dual strikes; taking a Berserker or Sage offers powerful Dual Strikes. Paladin still does what Paladin does best - giving strong pair-up bonuses (but not as strong as the Berserker) while being a high mobility class with solid physical stats.

Ugh. Put like that, it's hard not to say "Need a physical Galepair? Paladin one of them!" Maybe I'm being biased.

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Again, if you're going to be using a double galepair Berserker is not a great lead class. You can just use Sage Owain and ignore getting to 75 speed and just be done with it. You've already got a 75 speed sniper pair with Lucina x Laurent, just make this pair hit magic with the support and call it good.

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