Chiki

Consensual incest

   58 members have voted

  1. 1. Where would you draw the line?

    • Grandparent-child consensual relationships
    • Parent-child consensual relationships
    • Sibling consensual relationships
    • Uncle/aunt-nephew/niece consensual relationships
    • Cousin consensual relationships
    • Never

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130 posts in this topic

Assume all relationships here are 100% consensual and no abuse is going on.

And there is no chance of pregnancy due to multiple contraception methods.

Where would you draw the line?

Edited by Chiki

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uhm...do you mean for ourselves...? i mean, if you're talking about ourselves, then i would never get into a relationship like that with a relative. if you're talking about other people then...that's really none of my business.

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Let me elaborate. Where'd you draw the moral line? At what point does it become wrong to have a consensual relationship for everyone?

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My opinion is that it really isnt a good idea, for genetic reasons, so i dont approve, but if other people want to do it, then its not really my business and i'm not going to stop them

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Ah, another elaboration. Assume that the couples involved are using both condoms and birth control pills so the chance of pregnancy is almost zero.

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i think a parent-child or uncle/aunt-niece/nephew would be pretty disgusting. i mean, i don't think incest is a good idea, but i find those relationships (also grandparent-grandchild fits here too) worse than a cousin-cousin relationship or something.

that being said, if it's all consensual, i'm not gonna stop anyone.

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So two topics with the exact same goal posted in less than an hour? Is that really necessary?

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If two folks have the same great-grandparent (or further up the line), then a union might be acceptable assuming it's a serious relationship. This sort of thing was common not too long ago and is still practiced in certain communities. Anywhere closer is really pushing it. Otherwise, a really bad idea - find a different lay or something.

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So two topics with the exact same goal posted in less than an hour? Is that really necessary?

Wrong. This is a serious discussion about the morality of different contexts of incest in real life. The other thread was on whether one would mind having sibling to sibling incestuous relationships in a game or not.

Try contributing to the discussion, please. How about voting in the poll?

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It's squicky, but incest under the conditions specified in the OP shouldn't be made illegal IMO. Whether it's immoral is less clear; for all we know, there may be an absolute moral standard (e.g. God) that condemns incest. However, from a humanistic standpoint I don't see consensual, no-births incest as unethical.

it's not clear what you mean by "never:" does that mean one would never draw any sort of line since all are ethical, or does it mean that incest is never OK under any circumstances?

Edited by Redwall

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When dealing in relationships of people with sizable age differences, or where one party is naturally subordinate to another (parent/child, teacher/student, boss/employee), there can often be a troubling disparity in power, for lack of a better way to phrase it. When one person is in more of a position of authority over the other person, that can lead to some very undesirable consequences, even when unintended by the party in the position of power. Even if they never intend to leverage their power, the subordinate person may feel a sense of responsibility beyond what should actually exist, and succumb under pressure to things they ordinarily would not take part in.

That said, if things are truly consensual, there is never any moral problem between any actions, including sexual relations, between two consenting parties. Barring of course the obvious cases where force or fraud has been leveraged to obtain consent where it would not be freely given.

Edited by Balcerzak
typos/grammar

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it's not clear what you mean by "never:" does that mean one would never draw any sort of line since all are ethical, or does it mean that incest is never OK under any circumstances?

The bolded bit.

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I would be fine with everything up to and including consensual relationships between siblings, but anything intergenerational just rubs me the wrong way.

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If those involved couldn't result in someone getting pregnant I guess I could see it as something okay, but as an older sibling Incest has always seemed rather disgusting outside of a fictional setting to me.

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I think it's not so bad between cousins. Other than that it's fucking creepy and gross.

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When dealing in relationships of people with sizable age differences, or where one party is naturally subordinate to another (parent/child, teacher/student, boss/employee), there can often be a troubling disparity in power, for lack of a better way to phrase it. When one person is in more of a position of authority over the other person, that can lead to some very undesirable consequences, even when unintended by the party in the position of power. Even if they never intend to leverage their power, the subordinate person may feel a sense of responsibility beyond what should actually exist, and succumb under pressure to things they ordinarily would not take part in.

That said, if things are truly consensual, there is never any moral problem between any actions, including sexual relations, between two consenting parties. Barring of course the obvious cases where force or fraud has been leveraged to obtain consent where it would not be freely given.

This came up in a conversation I had with a therapist, and according to them it's even a wrinkle present for people who have as few years between them as relatively close siblings might- even if it's not intended, there can be a power dynamic there influencing the thought processes of both of them. This can make it hard to separate the "we're together because we love each other" bit that's (ideally) the case in normal, healthy consensual relationships, and the "[i/you] [am/are] obligated to please/defer to [you/me]," aspect that people tend to expect to be present in familial relationships, especially in close ones.

Like, I think we were talking with the assumption that the traditional dynamic is, "family elder protects/provides for younger member, and in return some deference is expected, even when the younger isn't actually relying on them any more." And I can't remember what the actual statistic the therapist cited was, but supposedly in a depressingly high share of all documented sibling incest cases, especially when one or both parties is underage, that power dynamic is openly invoked. So a great majority of (sibling) incest isn't consensual, and it might be hard/leaning towards impossible to get rid of that specter of power dynamics such that the relationship really isn't affected by them in the rest of those relationships. Especially if the siblings grew up in the same house, and especially if they're underage, I think they said.

But it's still kind of hard to tell if those are concerns innate to sibling relationships, or if we see them pop up because of how our cultures/societies have come to view family and siblinghood.

Tough call/situation, regarding people who really aren't doing anything intentionally coercive, and just want to have a union recognized. Not sure where I come down on it.

I mean personally, if a loving couple who never met before a certain point happened to somehow find out they were relatives, as was the case in at least one famous German example, kids aside, I don't think I'd really care that much about any of the above permutations. Otherwise, I guess I start to worry past cousins who happen to be of equalish age/standing.

Edited by Rehab

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If it's really consensual and they're not getting pregnant then it only becomes a problem when no one is having babies anymore.

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Oh, this reminds me of an older thread of the same line.

I'd have to say that I cannot endorse this, for the reason that this is still unaccepted by most religions and governments. While it is amiable that there is no abuse nor possibility of conception involved, which is close to an ideal case for a case such as this, I would disapprove because it is inherently "wrong." It's not that I am personally opposed to unorthodox relationships, and I don't mean to offend, I just feel that such widely unaccepted matter is too radical to support.

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Oh, this reminds me of an older thread of the same line.

I'd have to say that I cannot endorse this, for the reason that this is still unaccepted by most religions and governments. While it is amiable that there is no abuse nor possibility of conception involved, which is close to an ideal case for a case such as this, I would disapprove because it is inherently "wrong." It's not that I am personally opposed to unorthodox relationships, and I don't mean to offend, I just feel that such widely unaccepted matter is too radical to support.

So, just because something is unaccepted by religions and governments, that means it's immoral? Well, masturbation isn't accepted by Islam, Christianity and (I think) Judaism, so that means masturbation is wrong? Of course not.

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So, just because something is unaccepted by religions and governments, that means it's immoral? Well, masturbation isn't accepted by Islam, Christianity and (I think) Judaism, so that means masturbation is wrong? Of course not.

Looks like I shouldn't have used such a blanket word. By "wrong," I don't mean definitively, objectively or provably wrong. I'd meant to cite that the general public (at least in respect to a majority of religions and the laws of countries that I'm familiar with) consider incest "wrong" for reasons nondescript.

Analogizing it with masturbation would necessitate that one apply the same filters of morality. Since both incest and masturbation are both physically viable and relatively safe, as far as I'm aware, one's consideration of them both come down to their own subjective ideas of morality.

So when you ask whether or not it's wrong because two religions are intolerant of it, I can only answer with my own opinion, or redirect you to your answer of "no," for I couldn't have a proper answer.

Edited by Green Poet

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Looks like I shouldn't have used such a blanket word. By "wrong," I don't mean definitively, objectively or provably wrong. I'd meant to cite that the general public (at least in respect to a majority of religions and the laws of countries that I'm familiar with) consider incest "wrong" for reasons nondescript.

Analogizing it with masturbation would necessitate that one apply the same filters of morality. Since both incest and masturbation are both physically viable and relatively safe, as far as I'm aware, one's consideration of them both come down to their own subjective ideas of morality.

So when you ask whether or not it's wrong because two religions are intolerant of it, I can only answer with my own opinion, or redirect you to your answer of "no," for I couldn't have a proper answer.

I think there's a huge difference between what the general public think and what religions think. Most people used condoms even when the Catholic Church didn't advocate it; most Muslim and Christian males masturbate even though it's wrong, and so on. It doesn't seem like the general public cares much for religious ethics.

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I've always had an issue with a number of people I know who are homosexuals, into things like BDSM and similar, who condemn and criticise those who are intolerant of their consensual activities. But then those same people are also very obviously anti-incest (even when it couldn't cause pregnancy) and it seems like a clear case of hypocrisy to me.

I don't have a problem with other people's sexual interests and have actually been saying IRL for a few years. Most of the arguments, except for the risk of pregnancy, for incest are very similar to the ones people had been using against homosexual relationships 10-20 years ago. But incest is a much less widespread thing - probably because even fewer people are sexually attracted to close relatives, and also the pool of people you could be attracted to is considerably smaller, so movements to make it more accepted are a lot rarer. Right now,I'd say our culture is at a point where we tolerate and accept for homosexuality because of an "if that's what they want it's not harming me" attitude. But with incest, we're still at a point where we say "Eww, that's disgusting, stop!"

I've gone back to edit and clarify this post now so many times that I think it probably doesn't even make sense any more. But the point I'm trying to make in short is, if people want to make love to family members, then that's their choice. It shouldn't be persecuted any more than any other uncommon sexual preference is.

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What the heck are all of these topics floating around for o.o

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If its consensual then ts moral bro. Although, I can understand attraction between people within the age gap of 10 years, I mean srsly, I can't ever understand why someone would be attracted to their grandparents but ok.

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I've always had an issue with a number of people I know who are homosexuals, into things like BDSM and similar, who condemn and criticise those who are intolerant of their consensual activities. But then those same people are also very obviously anti-incest (even when it couldn't cause pregnancy) and it seems like a clear case of hypocrisy to me.

I don't have a problem with other people's sexual interests and have actually been saying IRL for a few years. Most of the arguments, except for the risk of pregnancy, for incest are very similar to the ones people had been using against homosexual relationships 10-20 years ago. But incest is a much less widespread thing - probably because even fewer people are sexually attracted to close relatives, and also the pool of people you could be attracted to is considerably smaller, so movements to make it more accepted are a lot rarer. Right now,I'd say our culture is at a point where we tolerate and accept for homosexuality because of an "if that's what they want it's not harming me" attitude. But with incest, we're still at a point where we say "Eww, that's disgusting, stop!"

I've gone back to edit and clarify this post now so many times that I think it probably doesn't even make sense any more. But the point I'm trying to make in short is, if people want to make love to family members, then that's their choice. It shouldn't be persecuted any more than any other uncommon sexual preference is.

Speaking only for myself, I don't really want to be opposed to any kind of attraction between consenting adults. And I wouldn't really contest that a lot of people probably feel a sense of revulsion to the idea of incest simply based on an "ick factor" that may indeed be analogous to an unfortunate number of persons' feelings in response to homosexuality, one which is more a gut feeling than based on an actual argument against it.

But according to a therapist I had about an hour-long conversation with, there might be something else complicating it- incest may be an attraction that distorts (and is distorted by) the way individuals conceive of and develop family relationships, and may be one which causes the people involved difficulty both in developing that relationship and in developing others in their future (my other post got a little more into it).

I'm not immediately familiar with whatever evidence there is myself, so I can't say for sure. And even besides what studies may have shown or implied, I'm not sure if any harm that might have been seen in incestuous relationships is intrinsic to incestuous relationships, or if it's symptomatic of complications that can arise because of social mores regarding family, romance, power, and companionship.

But I do think there may be room to doubt that incestuous relationships are totally equivalent/should be thought of in the same way as other romantic relationships.

Edited by Rehab

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