Choose You're Own Role Mafia - Game Over

[Da Bear]

If you have a legitimate case on BBM, cool, go ahead. If you're trying to lynch him just because of his role, nope, try again.

I don't want BBM lynched, he has done nothing that makes me think he's scum besides make a claim that I feel to be scummy.

I've already stated that my feelings on his claim doesn't make him worth lynching to me.

[Rocker64]

Although BBM's claim does seem kind of solid, and he could very easily prove it (provided I understand it correctly) I'm just not that willing to trust him right off the bat.

Its pretty suspicious that he is pretty much asking everyone to claim to him with no confirmation of him being innocent.

Also, whats an insomniac role exactly?

[Strege]

This is a little too trusting, I'm pretty sure you were in that game where BBM threw both his buddies under the bus early, he makes these kind of gambits all the time. I'm going to take a page out of Bard's book and say that this is laking the healthy amount of paranoia that townies usually have, made worse when you realise that you're seriously advocating a D1 town leader that you're willing to give away your role to.

##Unvote

##Vote:Strege

Serious time.

Which game was that? Regardless, I realize I was probably to quick to invest myself in the claim. I've only been in one game with a town leader (who was actually town (Shipping mafia)) so I'm mostly being influenced by what other people think is strategically sound. That said, I'm still reading BBM's presentation of the dealy as not-scummy-looking.

Strege

Refa asked bbm to claim his character.

I don't think it matters because no matter what bbm says, it's not indicative of bbms alignment.

Therefore I don't think refa is scummy for asking bbm to claim his character.

Of course I know that Refa wouldn't be scummy for fishing for alignment-relevant information -- if Refa were mafia then alignment-relevant information would hardly be relevant anyway. I'm saying that flavour can have role implications, and that I saw asking for that information in the way he did as possibly scummy.

The difference being that Strege is pushing it whereas you aren't.

100% not what I meant by that. I was only explaining my thoughts on the most relevant thing going on. I literally said that I don't understand how town leader setups work in general and in doing so was soliciting input such as that which Kay provided. I understand how my comment comes across as pushy...

I had to skim some other things but I'll come back and read after this midterm. Ahoy!

[Da Bear]

Oh, hey Refa also posted something that i should answer.

I'm not saying that thinking that BBM can be scum is wrong. At this point, I cannot say with 100% certainty that BBM is not scum, so I can't discount that possibility. What I find scummy about bearclaw is that he's literally stating that "I'm not using this as something strong enough to think BBM is scum" wherein the only reasonable scenario in which his doubts pay off is if BBM is scum. So yes, he certainly is implying that BBM could be scum without just openly stating it.

I'm going to explain a bit more. If what I say seems to contradict other things I've said than I'm bad.

BBM is not guaranteed to be town so claiming to him would be kind of dumb.

The way BBM claimed was pretty bad, he seemed to assume everyone would believe him instead of bothering to put himself in the minds of townies.

BBM has done nothing townie-looking, (I'm having trouble with the words here so i might come across as vague) he claimed like that and then just sort of talked about his claim. I can understand that he was (and remains apparently) gone before stuff worth talking about happened but that doesn't mean he's not under my suspicion because he wants to basically become town leader and have everyone trust him with nothing but a suspicious (imo) claim to go on. (That was terrible and probably makes no sense...I'll attempt rewording when I'm back on pc)

I find BBM's role to be at a level of OP'ness (if used to it's full ability) that Prims opposes giving town. This was my main thing at first (and while i acknowledge that it's a lame reason BBM himself used it in Semi-Precious and you are kind of using it in Oneshot so) several people disagreed and continue to disagree. I don't mind people disagreeing but it would be nice if you guys could state why you disagree.

At this point my last reason is kind of fading because it's so dumb.

...

Writing this all out has madee realize that I'm more suspicious of BBM than anyone else rn (even if some of the reasons are pretty meh)

So... ##Unvote

##Vote:BBM

[Da Bear]

Also, whats an insomniac role exactly?

BBM can post at night.

(Ninja'd by this post on...so 2 posts)

[Paperblade]

how come people shit their pants and panic whenever someone wants to take a leadership position and assumes they're scummy for wanting information

[Paperblade]

Actually, if BBM doesn't have to be in the channel we could maybe let someone else lead?

[Da Bear]

how come people shit their pants and panic whenever someone wants to take a leadership position and assumes they're scummy for wanting information

That's not the only reason I'm voting BBM though...

My suspicion started with that but when I voted I was a lot more focused on me:

1. Disliking the way he claimed and how he's followed it up so far.

2. Wanting some reads from a potential leader (so a pressure vote I guess).

This sums it up better than my last post I think.

[Sunwoo]

... I am not willing to claim to someone ... who has not been proven town. It bothers me that BBM expects us to follow blindly ... with the way he barged in and started giving orders.

Strege ... I disagree with your assessment that BBM would not do this as scum. Because scum would love to be in charge ... calling the shots. If they can do it in a way ... that doesn't implicate themselves or their buddies ... even better. Also ... I don't understand ... your issue with Refa's asking BBM to claim his character.

The flavor speculation ... around BBM's role compared to Proto's role in Touhou ... is not helpful, so let us stop that. I believe BBM's role. I have no reason to believe his alignment.

Paper, tell me ... why should we believe someone ... who has not proven their alignment? Some of us are ... not as good with working under town leaders, and some of us ... have good reason to be reluctant to claim.

##Vote: bearclaw

It strikes me as odd ... that you would spend so much time speculating BBM's claim, but not vote him until much later ... and even dismiss your own vote on him as a pressure vote. It feels like you're distancing yourself. Trying to put suspicion on him ... but not truly committing to finding him scum ...

[Da Bear]

##Vote: bearclaw

It strikes me as odd ... that you would spend so much time speculating BBM's claim, but not vote him until much later ... and even dismiss your own vote on him as a pressure vote. It feels like you're distancing yourself. Trying to put suspicion on him ... but not truly committing to finding him scum ...

You're voting someone else so unless you havw some cool role that won't work.

Only part of it is a pressure vote though, I have reasons to believe he's scummy and those are also a large part of why I'm voting.

[Da Bear]

You're voting someone else so unless you havw some cool role that won't work.

Only part of it is a pressure vote though, I have reasons to find him scummy and those are also a large part of why I'm voting.

Phone posting too hard.

I also forgot to comment on the weird way the post was made... I don't believe there are posting restrictions. ..

[Sunwoo]

You're voting someone else so unless you havw some cool role that won't work.

...

##Unvote

##Vote: bearclaw

It appears ... that I am too incoherent and tired to think straight right now.

If you have reasons to believe he is scummy ... then elaborate.

Also, now I must leave for some time.

[SB.]

Elieson isn't Bizz, you twat.

You're a twat.

Yes, and from our POV BBM can be scum. I don't see why not being open to the idea of giving someone our roles is scummy.

There's a difference between that and reacting on the level that DA BEAR is imo. Everyone else is pretty much saying that it's a null tell that BBM's doing it while DA BEAR is actively trying to lynch him on role grounds.

Actually, if BBM doesn't have to be in the channel we could maybe let someone else lead?

BBM is the only Insomniac so it'd be pretty hard to regulate it, even if he doesn't have to be in.

Town BBM did a similar thing to this in Shining Force 2 when he tried to get everyone to claim to him Night 0 as an unproven role. I don't think he's scummy for it.

[Elieson]

Bbm are you insomniac + whatever?

What's your restriction on insomnia? Like could you have posted n0?

[Zkirsche]

I'm not saying that thinking that BBM can be scum is wrong. At this point, I cannot say with 100% certainty that BBM is not scum, so I can't discount that possibility. What I find scummy about bearclaw is that he's literally stating that "I'm not using this as something strong enough to think BBM is scum" wherein the only reasonable scenario in which his doubts pay off is if BBM is scum. So yes, he certainly is implying that BBM could be scum without just openly stating it.

I'm not really sure how this is scummy. For the record, I myself don't particularly think BBM is scummy (else I'd have voted him in my first post, instead I chose to make an RVS vote) but that doesn't mean I'm going to jump at the idea of claiming to him.

@PB: Are you in favour of his plan then, out of interest?

Which game was that? Regardless, I realize I was probably to quick to invest myself in the claim. I've only been in one game with a town leader (who was actually town (Shipping mafia)) so I'm mostly being influenced by what other people think is strategically sound. That said, I'm still reading BBM's presentation of the dealy as not-scummy-looking.

@Underlined:Elieson said Shining Force so let's go with Shining force.

Town leaders can work and would usually blow up in the leaders' face but there have been times when it hasn't and this sort of limited OC wouldn't even let BBM direct people appropriately so all it'd be doing is giving him all the roles. What do we, as town, get from that? Are we going to make lynches based on rolespec? Of course not. I fail to see any sort of positive result of doing this and it could potentially lead us to giving all our roles to scum.

Also town leader strats are what killed SF OC games so it should die in a fire so someone will make another which I can join.

100% not what I meant by that. I was only explaining my thoughts on the most relevant thing going on. I literally said that I don't understand how town leader setups work in general and in doing so was soliciting input such as that which Kay provided. I understand how my comment comes across as pushy...

So you were constantly bringing your opinion to the table but don't want to push it through? Have some conviction man, just because you haven't played in one before doesn't mean you can't theorycraft and if you don't feel confident in a subject, let others discuss it a bit before judging. You're trying to excuse pushing a sub-optimal play by trying to pass it off as waffling.

[Da Bear]

If you have reasons to believe he is scummy ... then elaborate.

I did?

If you missednit then basically I find the way he claimed scummy and I don't like what he's done since.

[Zkirsche]

Laptop dying cba to recharge. Talk tomorrow/

[Zkirsche]

Ok nvm who needs sleep.

There's a difference between that and reacting on the level that DA BEAR is imo. Everyone else is pretty much saying that it's a null tell that BBM's doing it while DA BEAR is actively trying to lynch him on role grounds.

The post Refa quoted has Bear explicitly saying that he wasn't giving his theory much weight yet. Ok, so he's gone further than that now but he was still getting a lot of flak for essentially going "Guys mass rolefish might be scummy and -modmeta-". Bad logic =/= scummy logic.

Someone who's not showing any kind of resistance to the idea looks worse than someone showing more than the sensible amount of resistance to the idea.

[Paperblade]

I think a town leader would be useful but it does not necessarily need to be BBM

[Zkirsche]

BBM appears to be the only candidate.

[SB.]

The only reason I would object is that when a lynch is certain, SF has a habit of doing fuck all for the rest of the day, which would kind of screw us if BBM dies.

[Zkirsche]

If I prove my role would people prefer me as leader?

Mine is super easy to prove.

[Kriemhild]

I can not see Proto's role being superior, can you tell me why you think it is?

Proto's role in Touhou Mafia allowed private communication too. So Proto could have easily taken the position of being a "leader", and get people to claim to him privately. That way, a town role would get all the information, and it wouldn't benefit scum any more than it would in BBM's current role. But BBM's role has to deal with different timings and such because everything is public.

Although now that you mention it, I would like to know why everyone seemed so sure of BBM at first, his claim set off alarm bells for me immediately and I would like to understand what the thought process behind disagreeing responses looked like.

For a short while, I thought it was a joke, since he claimed so early. Then I realized that it seemed like a legit feasible role, and everyone else took it seriously too. I believed that he had the ability (easily provable) but I had no reason to believe that he is Town. So I was opposed to the idea of everybody going to him and claiming.

This post bothers the heck out of me, considering that the only reason I see to not go along with BBM's plan is if he's scum.

You're misunderstanding the situation. Aside from yourself, if you're Town, you don't know the alignment of anybody else. So we don't know BBM's alignment nor do we have any evidence pointing to his alignment. Our stance is that, just like all other players, BBM could be scum => Don't want to claim to him. This reluctance to claim to BBM does NOT mean that we actually think that BBM is scum. We may not have any reason to think of him as being scum, but we need some assurance that he is Town before we decide to claim to him and let him govern our lives.

In other words, it is perfectly valid to reject BBM's proposal without actually finding him scummy.

I don't believe scum would want to be town leader, because that implies having a definite stance, which scum literally just cannot do.

Wut? Scum would try to lead the Town and act as if they're working in the best interests of the Town. While, in reality, they are setting it up to lead the Mafia to victory. Scum can do that extremely easily once they gain the position of Town Leader and earn everyone else's trust.

I'm not saying that thinking that BBM can be scum is wrong. At this point, I cannot say with 100% certainty that BBM is not scum, so I can't discount that possibility. What I find scummy about bearclaw is that he's literally stating that "I'm not using this as something strong enough to think BBM is scum" wherein the only reasonable scenario in which his doubts pay off is if BBM is scum. So yes, he certainly is implying that BBM could be scum without just openly stating it.

Like I said, refusing to appoint somebody as a Town Leader =/= finding that candidate scummy. I mean, obviously, if you find the candidate scummy, you'd refuse appointing them as the Town Leader. But, if your read on the candidate is neutral, that's enough reason to reject his appointment as a Town Leader.

Also, whats an insomniac role exactly?

Insomniacs don't sleep at night, so they can talk in the thread and such during night phase, while the rest of us have to stay quiet.

Writing this all out has madee realize that I'm more suspicious of BBM than anyone else rn (even if some of the reasons are pretty meh)

So... ##Unvote

##Vote:BBM

I really really do not like this vote. I found Refa's argument illogical, so I perfectly understood why bearclaw rejected BBM's proposal without finding him scummy. Now, because Refa tells him that it makes no sense, bearclaw decided to change his stance and vote for BBM? I think bearclaw's thought process went something like "Crap, Refa tells me that I can't not find BBM scummy" => "this is making ME look scummy to Refa" => "I should change my views to make it seem more logical to everyone" => "I know, I'll declare that I find BBM scummy, that should make Refa happy". Which is really, really bad. You should not decide your reads based on what would make you look good. You should declare your reads based on what you yourself feel about the player, and not be swayed by what other people think of your reads. I mean, yes, you should look at other opinions and objectively analyze them, but you should not change your stance on the basis of conforming with somebody else.

And finally, I see absolutely no reason to find BBM scummy. He claimed an ability that can easily be proven and that's it. He said nothing noteworthy after that to make him look townish or scummy. Everything after that was the rest of us discussing BBM, while BBM himself was quiet. bearclaw's vote on BBM does not seem to be based on the roleclaim itself, but based on how the rest of us decided to deal with it, which has absolutely nothing to do with BBM's actual alignment.

[riariadne]

##Unvote (roofa)

I also forgot to comment on the weird way the post was made... I don't believe there are posting restrictions. ..

This is not scummy, so why did you even bring it up? PRs aren't bad until they get to the point of being obfuscating about what they're trying to say/ make the post difficult to read/etc. You never brought this up for eclipse either and she directly said she has a PR so this strikes me as a weird inconsistency. I feel like your vote is poor too. You were also like "this is a dumb reason" (49) and then continued to do it anyway. There is really nothing redeeming about your posts to this point at all.

##Vote: bear

Also I didn't think about the fact BBM can't really do anything with his role other than gather claims and look through those which isn't that good if he's town. I think his claim is null though. I wouldn't prefer kirsche either because role =/= alignment and it doesn't fix the problem of not being that good

also I don't think Refa asking for character is scummy

[riariadne]

Okay I missed the part where he can use it more than once. Which is relevant.