Mia or Zihark?

[Anacybele]

Zihark, no contest. Not only is he much stronger than Mia, yet just as fast, but he's also much cooler. <3

Mia is just too weak to be useful at all. Zihark always outspeeds stuff and then crushes them and he comes with a Killing Edge. :3

[Ciarre]

Don't forget: Wrath is ruled out because it comes in Chapter 18 and has a big IKE tag all over it. Unless you want a really crappy and difficult Berserk Ashnard fight.

this this this this

Use Mia or Zihark if you want to use either of them, but it's not like Zihark is like 485739457394857 times better than her because he's really not. He might be better by a small margin but it's not enough to dictate that you shouldn't use Mia ever because he exists.

[Snowy_One]

-Two subpar units (especially one in particular) to have any noticeable offense

-Wrath (which even with, unless she's hogging Ilyana AND Rhys, won't even make a difference since she's rather weak, and it's not like critical hits are reliable otherwise; and that's ignoring the laundry list of enemies it means jack shit on)

-A magic weapon which she easily loses the competition for because Tanith can put it to better use

You better because, otherwise, you're just gonna hurt your own argument even more. You're fighting someone who has defended Mia since back in the Gamefaqs days when smash ruled the list and Mia was considered the worst unit simply because. I know her and the arguments revolving around her backwards and forwards. I'd dearly appreciate something new.

1) Rhys is not 'sub-par'. He's your only healer till chapter 9 and, unless you're gonna jump Mist or a mage up and seal them, the best healer until Mist promotes (even then it's dubious as the sages start with a low staff-rank and Mist needs to train for sword-use). Oddly, no one ever complains about Mist needing supports, but that's not relevant right now.

2) Mia is not weak. She'll be 1-2 points behind Zihark for most of the game at WORST. Plus, if you want to talk about 'weak' how is Muarim with those non-forgable 9 MT iron claws and demi-band doing? Oh, right, 'weak' only matters when it's Mia being talked about. Ignoring that she can be much stronger than Zihark and critical hits deal more than enough to make up for a small MT difference unless you plan on having them fight generals constantly... at which point Mia still wins due to being able to use the SS.

3) Tanith cannot make 'better use of it'. Tanith at joining has 10 MAG. A 20/1 Mia has 10 MAG if you used the dusts on her, 11-12 if you had her use the bands. Yes, Tanith does deal more BASE damage, but it's still low (24 MT total assuming you double-dust Tanith. Against enemy RES that's iffy even on a double) and Mia has a 20-30% crit rate before skills, can get a bonus 4 MT from supports, and can get an additional 50% critical from Wrath. The only unit who is viable competition for the SS for a built Mia is Mist, and even that's iffy (she needs either training or the scrolls and is bad without it).

Don't forget: Wrath is ruled out because it comes in Chapter 18 and has a big IKE tag all over it. Unless you want a really crappy and difficult Berserk Ashnard fight. Even if she does get Wrath for some reason, it comes in Chapter 18 like I said, so that's Chapter 19 Wrath Mia at best. But zihark has been beating Mia in strength all this time. The argument that Mia can tie Zihark with a forge is so false, because I can just give that forge to Zihark and make him even better than her. Note that Zihark has Adept chances on every enemy, making his offense even better when compared to Mia's. Vantage is a crappy skill that needs her to be able to crit and OHKO with it. Mia critting everything she has to is a lot less likely to occur than Earth affinity avoids. Ugh, why am I even responding to these crazy arguments?

No he doesn't. This may shock a lot of the tiering community, but people beat Ashnard without relying on wrath, especially since resolve and Aether exist. Especially since he didn't even say if he is playing on easy, normal, or hard. Hard is the only mode where Ike has anything resembling a 'mark' on it, especially since, in the other two, you can have Giffca around to help you out. Not to mention your dragon. And not to mention that 'wrath Ike' is only 'useful' for two fights. The BK and Ashnard. Vantage/wrath Mia is around for the entire game and is kick-ass.

This is ignoring of course that there are THREE skills Mia can be good with as opposed to the one Zihark is good with. Who says Zihark has a monopoly on it either? At the least Nephenee rocks with it and Ike would certainly enjoy it pre-resolve. Why do other unit claims only matter when it's Mia and not Zihark?

Also, Mia's wrath comes at 19, but Zihark's avoid doesn't kick-in until 25, so yea. Vantage, Mia.

As for forging, here's the thing. BOTH MIA AND ZIHARK ARE STRONG WITH THE FORGE! It's like explaining it to an idiot. With the forge both are strong, so much so that the extra STR Zihark can have is, effectively, meaningless, especially since said lead might not even exist at that point.

And no, adept 'doesn't make his offense better by default'. It can activate on units Zihark would have killed/dodged regardless. So if Zihark would have killed anyways, but it activates on the second strike, or it activates on the EP, or the enemy is too strong for him to kill regardless of said third strike, it's useless. Vantage more than doubles the chances of it activating and, shockingly, Mia can counter at 2-range with the SS viably. It's almost as if you don't know a single thing about Mia and are just praising Zihark because you don't understand the character at all.

It doesn't matter because, at the crux of things, there is a key statement you seem to be missing.

I'm thinking of starting a new game but I don't know if I should go with Mia or Zihark as the Swordmaster. I never used Mia so I don't really know if she's good. I've heard people say she's fast but has shit strength. My Ziharks have always been good and I wanna try someone new but I'm not sure if the trade is worth it.

Use Mia then. I've used all the units (even Rolf and Lucia) and I've found Mia to be the most enjoyable and fun by far... short of RNG abusing Elincia up to maul foes with her infinite-use brave sword but that's neither here nor there (though cool to watch). Mia is a cost-reward character. At the least give her something to boost her STR and her vantage skill combos amazingly well. Make sure to combo it. If you really wanna have fun, do that and boost her magic up as well for the enjoyment that is SS Mia. Just make sure you go in with a plan. IMO, give Mia the following (in order of importance)

- Energy drop (if she's having melee troubles. Use it on someone else if needed).

- Wrath, adept, or Guard.

- Rhys A. Ilyana B if you really want.

- SS so she can fight at range.

- Mage Band and dusts (they go to waste on the actual mages, all of which have strong MAG anyways).

Edited December 7, 2013 by Snowy_One

[Shadow Mir]

You better because, otherwise, you're just gonna hurt your own argument even more.

1) Rhys is not 'sub-par'. He's your only healer till chapter 9 and, unless you're gonna jump Mist or a mage up and seal them, the best healer until Mist promotes (even then it's dubious as the sages start with a low staff-rank and Mist needs to train for sword-use). Oddly, no one ever complains about Mist needing supports, but that's not relevant right now.

2) Mia is not weak. She'll be 1-2 points behind Zihark for most of the game at WORST. Plus, if you want to talk about 'weak' how is Muarim with those non-forgable 9 MT iron claws and demi-band doing? Oh, right, 'weak' only matters when it's Mia being talked about. Ignoring that she can be much stronger than Zihark and critical hits deal more than enough to make up for a small MT difference unless you plan on having them fight generals constantly... at which point Mia still wins due to being able to use the SS.

3) Tanith cannot make 'better use of it'. Tanith at joining has 10 MAG. A 20/1 Mia has 10 MAG if you used the dusts on her, 11-12 if you had her use the bands. Yes, Tanith does deal more BASE damage, but it's still low (24 MT total assuming you double-dust Tanith. Against enemy RES that's iffy even on a double) and Mia has a 20-30% crit rate before skills, can get a bonus 4 MT from supports, and can get an additional 50% critical from Wrath. The only unit who is viable competition for the SS for a built Mia is Mist, and even that's iffy (she needs either training or the scrolls and is bad without it).

No he doesn't. This may shock a lot of the tiering community, but people beat Ashnard without relying on wrath, especially since resolve and Aether exist. Especially since he didn't even say if he is playing on easy, normal, or hard. Hard is the only mode where Ike has anything resembling a 'mark' on it, especially since, in the other two, you can have Giffca around to help you out. Not to mention your dragon. And not to mention that 'wrath Ike' is only 'useful' for two fights. The BK and Ashnard. Vantage/wrath Mia is around for the entire game and is kick-ass.

This is ignoring of course that there are THREE skills Mia can be good with as opposed to the one Zihark is good with. Who says Zihark has a monopoly on it either? At the least Nephenee rocks with it and Ike would certainly enjoy it pre-resolve. Why do other unit claims only matter when it's Mia and not Zihark?

Also, Mia's wrath comes at 19, but Zihark's avoid doesn't kick-in until 25, so yea. Vantage, Mia.

As for forging, here's the thing. BOTH MIA AND ZIHARK ARE STRONG WITH THE FORGE! It's like explaining it to an idiot. With the forge both are strong, so much so that the extra STR Zihark can have is, effectively, meaningless, especially since said lead might not even exist at that point.

And no, adept 'doesn't make his offense better by default'. It can activate on units Zihark would have killed/dodged regardless. So if Zihark would have killed anyways, but it activates on the second strike, or it activates on the EP, or the enemy is too strong for him to kill regardless of said third strike, it's useless. Vantage more than doubles the chances of it activating and, shockingly, Mia can counter at 2-range with the SS viably. It's almost as if you don't know a single thing about Mia and are just praising Zihark because you don't understand the character at all.

It doesn't matter because, at the crux of things, there is a key statement you seem to be missing.

Use Mia then. I've used all the units (even Rolf and Lucia) and I've found Mia to be the most enjoyable and fun by far... short of RNG abusing Elincia up to maul foes with her infinite-use brave sword but that's neither here nor there (though cool to watch). Mia is a cost-reward character. At the least give her something to boost her STR and her vantage skill combos amazingly well. Make sure to combo it. If you really wanna have fun, do that and boost her magic up as well for the enjoyment that is SS Mia. Just make sure you go in with a plan. IMO, give Mia the following (in order of importance)

- Energy drop (if she's having melee troubles. Use it on someone else if needed).

- Wrath, adept, or Guard.

- Rhys A. Ilyana B if you really want.

- SS so she can fight at range.

- Mage Band and dusts (they go to waste on the actual mages, all of which have strong MAG anyways).

1) But Rhys can't afford to be around Mia all the time with his rock-bottom durability. That means... Either he accompanies Mia so she can benefit from the support, but risks being attacked, or Mia goes ahead first and loses her support bonus. It's a lose-lose situation either way.

2)Maybe. But as for your point about generals, did armorslayers go extinct or something?

3) And a double-dusted Mia is supposed to be impressive with a support from Rhys, who's bottom 3 in durability for the entire game? You crack me up. Never mind she needs all that just to match a double-dusted Tanith... owait, DA CRIT. Nope, sorry. I'm not impressed.

Vantage/wrath Mia is around for the entire game and is kick-ass.

ITT: Wrath comes in chapter 7 or something.

Honestly, I think that this game is one of the ones where Swordmasters were pretty lackluster.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Snowy_One]

1) But Rhys can't afford to be around Mia all the time with his rock-bottom durability. That means... Either he accompanies Mia so she can benefit from the support, but risks being attacked, or Mia goes ahead first and loses her support bonus. It's a lose-lose situation either way.

Or you show a bit of intelligence and move Rhys first? It's not like he has a range issue with physic staves and the enemies don't attack on the players turn.

2)Maybe. But as for your point about generals, did armorslayers go extinct or something?

If you're using an armor-slayer, why are you worried about a 2-point, at most, difference in attack?

3) And a double-dusted Mia is supposed to be impressive with a support from Rhys, who's bottom 3 in durability for the entire game? You crack me up. Never mind she needs all that just to match a double-dusted Tanith... owait, DA CRIT. Nope, sorry. I'm not impressed.

That's fine. You don't have to be impressed. Just to stop denying facts.

Fact. Mia has the highest non-Mist potential magic score of any sword-user (remember, mage band exists and Tanith can't take advantage of it).

Fact. Criticals deal a LOT of damage, enough to make up for any damage deficit Mia may have. Not to mention such things as 'taking up only one weapon use'.

Fact. A wrathed Mia hovers around a 70% critical rate.

Outcome: A SS-built Mia will critical enemies and either kill or bring them into 2HKO (1C1HKO?) range the vast majority of the time. This means she will be one of the units whom can use the SS (as opposed to Zihark's nothing) and will likely have it for the longest amount of time out of the units who actively use it.

[eclipse]

Which one I use depends on the rest of my team. If I'm bent on using Muarim, for example, then Zihark comes along.

Edited December 7, 2013 by eclipse

[Snowy_One]

Which one I use depends on the rest of my team. If I'm bent on using Muarim, for example, then Zihark comes along.

I should report you for being sane in a Mia/Zihark debate.

But that would be a sane response.

[bottlegnomes]

Why is Rhys ever in range of Mia? He makes jello look not squishy.

A 20/1 Mia has 10 MAG if you used the dusts on her

Why are we using dusts on a mediocre unit so she can make mediocre use of an incredibly limited resource? There are so many other units who'd like dusts, like Rhys, Calill, Tanith, Ilyana, etc.

The real question is why is all of this effort on Mia even worthwhile? You have to invest a scroll, a unique sword with low uses, two items and a band that other people want, and use a character that should be nowhere near the front lines and a mediocre character to get a good Mia. It's like saying Franz can be better than Seth if we abuse him up to 20/0 in the chapter 5 arena and then promote him as soon as we get the knight's crest.

On topic: Go for either. PoR's easy enough that you don't have to worry.

Edited December 7, 2013 by bottlegnomes

[dondon151]

uh most people are being pretty sane when they say that in a vacuum, zihark is slightly better than mia.

[Snowy_One]

Why is Rhys ever in range of Mia? He makes jello look not squishy.

Because, shockingly, it's possible to check enemy range and have intelligence enough to clear out enemies on the player phase. Plus, 3 range is NOT a small amount. Especially when Rhys doesn't have to be in any one spot to heal.

uh most people are being pretty sane when they say that in a vacuum, zihark is slightly better than mia.

Good thing that the game doesn't happen in a vacuum then. Because, practically, the STR 'advantage' (which isn't an advantage) doesn't exist and gets reversed, it's cake to keep Rhys in range especially if you aren't LTC obsessive, and Zihark just brings nothing to the table that Mia can't bring better.

[bottlegnomes]

Because, shockingly, it's possible to check enemy range and have intelligence enough to clear out enemies on the player phase. Plus, 3 range is NOT a small amount. Especially when Rhys doesn't have to be in any one spot to heal.

So we're going to limit Mia's movement so we can keep Rhys safe but still in support range? That literally sounds bad for everyone, save your argument.

[Florete]

Wtf are people doing saying Mia requires two squishies tethered to her to have any offense? She doesn't need them, but just one will make her offense as good as or better than Zihark's. I swear, none of you have actually used Mia in this game. If you're, you know, smart and can use resources like forges and skills effectively (and even supports; might as well give Mia Ilyana for when it might be helpful), they're basically going to perform the same. Depending on factors like your team and difficulty mode, Mia might even be better than him when he shows up.

While some people may love to point out that one point of Str can be the difference between killing or not, these situations just don't pop up often enough to really make a unit with one or two more Str better than another. Mia and Zihark's growths and averages in Str are also close enough such that, while it isn't the common occurrence, it isn't totally unlikely that Mia could end up with the same or higher Str than him anyway; that's just the result of having a mere 5% difference in growth. Yes, yes, the reverse can also happen, but that's beside the point.

[dondon151]

While some people may love to point out that one point of Str can be the difference between killing or not, these situations just don't pop up often enough to really make a unit with one or two more Str better than another.

wow, that's like saying that unit A, which is 2 fewer str than unit B, is functionally equivalent to unit C, who has 2 more str than unit B. of course every point of str matters. there was that whole time when kieran was above oscar on the tier list because he had 2 more atk or something.

Good thing that the game doesn't happen in a vacuum then. Because, practically, the STR 'advantage' (which isn't an advantage) doesn't exist and gets reversed, it's cake to keep Rhys in range especially if you aren't LTC obsessive, and Zihark just brings nothing to the table that Mia can't bring better.

please stop pretending that supports are even relevant 50% of the time. carry on with this charade as you wish, since all of the evidence is subjective, but you're just propagating nonsense.

Edited December 7, 2013 by dondon151

[Shadow Mir]

Wtf are people doing saying Mia requires two squishies tethered to her to have any offense? She doesn't need them, but just one will make her offense as good as or better than Zihark's. I swear, none of you have actually used Mia in this game. If you're, you know, smart and can use resources like forges and skills effectively (and even supports; might as well give Mia Ilyana for when it might be helpful), they're basically going to perform the same. Depending on factors like your team and difficulty mode, Mia might even be better than him when he shows up.

While some people may love to point out that one point of Str can be the difference between killing or not, these situations just don't pop up often enough to really make a unit with one or two more Str better than another. Mia and Zihark's growths and averages in Str are also close enough such that, while it isn't the common occurrence, it isn't totally unlikely that Mia could end up with the same or higher Str than him anyway; that's just the result of having a mere 5% difference in growth. Yes, yes, the reverse can also happen, but that's beside the point.

As I see it, Mia may want Ilyana, but Ilyana doesn't necessarily want Mia. It's a one-way support, with Ily getting next to nothing out of it, and it's her worst support too.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Florete]

wow, that's like saying that unit A, which is 2 fewer str than unit B, is functionally equivalent to unit C, who has 2 more str than unit B. of course every point of str matters. there was that whole time when kieran was above oscar on the tier list because he had 2 more atk or something.

Context. This isn't Radiant Dawn we're talking about where enemies can actually be consistently strong enough to withstand all but the most powerful attacks. In this game, and especially if it's not hard mode (the topic doesn't specify), that little bit doesn't usually make a big difference. Are there going to be enemies Mia misses the kill on that Zihark could get? Oh, I'm sure there will be a few, but one enemy on average per map isn't a deal-breaker to me.

And while I'm not keen on the idea of forcing Mia to support mages, she at least does have earlier and better options for raising her atk through supports; at best she's getting +4 while Zihark only has +1, though more commonly it'll be +1 or 2 until later in the game if she's supporting Rhys.

[dondon151]

Context. This isn't Radiant Dawn we're talking about where enemies can actually be consistently strong enough to withstand all but the most powerful attacks. In this game, and especially if it's not hard mode (the topic doesn't specify), that little bit doesn't usually make a big difference. Are there going to be enemies Mia misses the kill on that Zihark could get? Oh, I'm sure there will be a few, but one enemy on average per map isn't a deal-breaker to me.

thank you for bringing up context. str is incredibly relevant in all hard modes throughout all games (yes, even the piss easy ones like FE7 and FE8), and it's even more important when looking at a unit with one of the worst str averages in the game locked to the weakest weapon type.

zihark also has adept.

[Florete]

thank you for bringing up context. str is incredibly relevant in all hard modes throughout all games (yes, even the piss easy ones like FE7 and FE8), and it's even more important when looking at a unit with one of the worst str averages in the game locked to the weakest weapon type.

zihark also has adept.

Okay, this really isn't a big deal. If this were a tier list argument or something I wouldn't be saying anything at all (although I do find it interesting that Mia is currently above Zihark on the tier list), and I'd rather not treat it like one. The OP asked which one he should use in a run of the game. Both function very similarly and throughout a casual run of the game, one is unlikely to notice significant differences. I'm not sure if you think I'm saying Mia > Zihark or not, but I'll just point out that I'm not to be thorough.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

Stefan is probably the best, but Zihark has better strength, and a better strength growth, and will for the most part be an overall better unit than Mia.

Conclusion: Stefan > Zihark > Mia.

[Elieson]

Fmpov, its easier to work with a unit like zihark, who can achieve almost-superior results with significantly less investment.

[SB.]

Inb4: use both

Inb4: use Stefan

use rolf

he's a mono weaponed foot unit with a crit bonus on promo too

[Loki Laufeyson]

Honestly, I think that this game is one of the ones where Swordmasters were pretty lackluster.

Pretty much. Even Stefan has failings such as mediocre durability.

[bridatass]

Wow...Some people are taking this way too seriously...Calm down lmfao...

Anyway I just want to say about this Sonic Sword/Runesword argument...You're not going to be using them both THAT much, you can argue using the Hammerne on it but I much prefer using that on brave weapons. Runesword also comes far too late to be a valid argument IMHO.

I say use Zihark and I'm putting supports aside because I don't feel like using Rhys or Ilyana because both are either going to need Bexp or a master seal and they could go to other units that need them like Kieran/Nephenee.

[Rainbow Skittles]

Just my opinion: Stefan>Zihark>Mia>>>>>>Lucia

Both are just pretty good and usable in all modes, but Zihark requires less effort despite joining later.

Also, since when are any of the swordies good with the SS?

[FionordeQuester]

Seems to me that Mia is actually the best if you're willing to rig her level ups to have tons of strength, what with Vantage potentially allowing her to kill tons of stuff with the Killing Edge/Forged Weapon. Otherwise though, yeah, I'd go with what everyone else is saying.

Edited December 8, 2013 by FionordeQuester

[Brendor]

So I'm on chapter 11 and I think Mia went up like one level so far.

I was going to bexp abuse her to get good strength and defence but I think I'll bexp abuse Nephenee instead since she's a goddess and all especially after she gets vantage and gets below half health.

Edit: I'll try Mia just to she how see turns out

Thanks for all the feedback

Edited December 8, 2013 by Brendor the Hungry