Mia or Zihark?

[Dark Sage]

I'll put this bluntly; Mia has Vantage in the game where it is most broken.

She'll never be terrible.

*snicker*

[-Cynthia-]

Mia is above Zihark on the tier list because of the small availability lead. The two units are very similar in function overall.

[Icon of Sin]

Doesn't fe5 have a cap of 25 crit on the non-pursuit attacks, though?

Yes but the game showers you with Brave weapons so much there's even another generic set of them that bosses tend to use and can be yours to use if you capture/steal them. That's not counting some of them being able to attack at two different ranges, magical, or that you can outright OHKO a lot of the enemies by using a high-powered tome such as Thoron or Jormung and a Pure Water. Add a Rewarp staff for added fun.

[Chiki]

Japanese version Mia can use 255 crit Slim Swords with Vantage.

[Brendor]

Japanese version

._.

This is Murcia

We don't got no dem dar fancy "255 crit swords", we use our fully automatic 50 calibur rifles like REAL men

Edited December 8, 2013 by Brendor the Hungry

[dondon151]

Well, then, it's a good thing Mia is capable of gaining an attack lead thanks to her supports. Seriously, at this point you're pretty much arguing pro-Zihark for the sake of denouncing Mia.

in order for this to happen:

1. rhys has to be used together with mia for at least 8 chapters to give a +2 atk bonus

2. rhys has to be within support range of mia

you can't possibly be suggesting that it's a good thing for mia to usually have an attack deficit and occasionally tie in attack under uncommon circumstances (since it takes until chapter 16 for her to reach B with rhys).

So then Zihark now fights without supports. He's now less durable (Mia's vantage criticals will more than put her ahead at equal levels with no input from anything else) and Mia is only 1-2 points behind him in attack without her own supports and is making up for it via either a forge or superior critting capabilities.

pffft mia has next to zero displayed crit on enemies when unpromoted unless she's using a KE or a critforge. vantage also doesn't do anything against 1-2 range enemies, so any durability advantage from vantage is minor at best, and the likelihood that a vantage crit will OHKO an enemy is less than the likelihood that an adept proc will reach a 3HKO.

and obviously if you give mia a forge, zihark can get that exact same forge as well, so she is not making up any attack deficit with a forge.

Pretty much the only way Zihark 'wins' is when both Mia and Zihark are horribly sandbagged by people shooting for LTC and need every last forge and item to ensure their forged handaxes and elite team can plough forwards. This, coincidentally, is pretty much what happens on tier-lists. Everywhere else a bit of resources can be given to them without fear, and when that happens, Mia's very minor loss turns into a resounding victory as she makes incredible returns on the things given to her.

lol please don't explain to me how you think tier lists work. mia is ranked above zihark on the tier list because she joins early enough to save a turn. that's it.

Edited December 8, 2013 by dondon151

[Shadow Mir]

Japanese version Mia can use 255 crit Slim Swords with Vantage.

Which, as it's a Slim Sword, WILL need a lot of money going towards Mt just to even make it worth considering (for the record, adding max Mt to a Slim Sword is 8555 gold down the tubes).

[Chiki]

Which, as it's a Slim Sword, WILL need a lot of money going towards Mt just to even make it worth considering (for the record, adding max Mt to a Slim Sword is 8555 gold down the tubes).

You don't need to worry about money around halfway through the game, and Mia doesn't always need to have a max might Slim Sword anyway.

[Shadow Mir]

You don't need to worry about money around halfway through the game, and Mia doesn't always need to have a max might Slim Sword anyway.

But given that you only get one forge opportunity per chapter, I'd rather use that forge on something besides a freaking Slim Sword...

Edited December 8, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Chiki]

But given that you only get one forge opportunity per chapter, I'd rather use that forge on something besides a freaking Slim Sword...

Honestly, this is an incredibly stupid statement. It's not just "a freaking Slim Sword." It's a Slim Sword that crits all the time. It's not the Slim Sword you think it is. That's way better than all forges with the exception of maybe 1-2 range weapons if you need them.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Chiki

[dondon151]

Honestly, this is an incredibly stupid statement. It's not just "a freaking Slim Sword." It's a Slim Sword that crits all the time. It's not the Slim Sword you think it is. That's way better than all forges with the exception of maybe 1-2 range weapons if you need them.

255 crit thunder!

[Shadow Mir]

Honestly, this is an incredibly stupid statement. It's not just "a freaking Slim Sword." It's a Slim Sword that crits all the time. It's not the Slim Sword you think it is. That's way better than all forges with the exception of maybe 1-2 range weapons if you need them.

Whoops, sorry, couldn't hear you over dat 255 crit thunder

[Chiki]

255 crit Thunder is a 1-2 range weapon.... already mentioned it.

[Brendor]

Again.

That's only in the Jap version

[bridatass]

This is absolutely ridiculous, this is a game where mounts dominate so Mia and Zihark are going to be falling behind the rest and picking off only a few units here and there so supports aren't going to be that necessary, as I stated before units like Kieran, Oscar, Marcia and Jill are going to be your main units in this game and are also going to be needing the experience along the way so where on earth are support units like Rhys/Ilyana/Brom going to get the experience from? We could use a master seal but I'd prefer to use it on someone worthwhile like I don't know...Kieran?

So yes I would like to argue that supports are irrelevant here unless we want to play on easy mode (lol) Zihark and Mia are both going to be struggling to get experience along the way as both come pretty weak but at least Zihark comes with Adept so he can actually kill crap without prodding forges or criticals every hit.

Zihark is marginally better than Mia unless you want to revolve your whole game around Mia in which case be my guest...

Don't bother trying to argue with me because if I want to use a footunit I'm happy with Ike/Stefan/Nephenee.

[nflchamp]

lol please don't explain to me how you think tier lists work. mia is ranked above zihark on the tier list because she joins early enough to save a turn. that's it.

Which, of course, means that there is little to no functional difference between Mia and Zihark after Zihark joins.

Arguably, Mia also has the higher ceiling, and is therefore a better investment if you're going to use one (though it doesn't actually matter, either).

[Mikethfc]

Use Lucia instead, she's way good

[spoiler=here's why]

Lucia has like a sword and shit, innit

trufax

[Loki Laufeyson]

I also thought about giving it to Soren for a Wrath-Adept combo

Nah dont do that. Soren getting hit is something you want to avoid because despite everything, hes still a wet cardboard box on 5th and Market. Wrath is hardly necessary for him to get the job done anyway.

[dondon151]

Which, of course, means that there is little to no functional difference between Mia and Zihark after Zihark joins.

if you haven't noticed, i wasn't saying that zihark blew mia out of the water performance-wise.

[Chiki]

"Zihark needs Muarim." What the hell am I reading..?

[Mighty Kamina]

I usually only use Stefan, but if I want to try Mia or Zihark I usually stick with Mia as I have had poor expierences with Zihark.

[Snowy_One]

*sigh* Was it too much to hope that people would stop being stupid regarding Mia vs. Zihark? Part of me almost wants to bring this up in the tier-lists again if only because there are some actual responses there. However, seeing as Mia's already on top and I'm pretty sure some mod will at least give me a warning to stop that fight in its tracks so we don't have another year-long slogfest debate, I won't. (Plus, I'm not THAT incapable of self-control.)

This is absolutely ridiculous, this is a game where mounts dominate so Mia and Zihark are going to be falling behind the rest and picking off only a few units here and there so supports aren't going to be that necessary, as I stated before units like Kieran, Oscar, Marcia and Jill are going to be your main units in this game and are also going to be needing the experience along the way

If someone wants to play without employing a mounted unit rush, they can. There is no rule aside from LTC obsession that says mounts are the only way, or even the best way, to play FE9. Yes, the mounted units have a statistical power that outperforms pretty much everything. I don't think anyone would argue that either Mia or Zihark is superior to any mounted unit except for a few glaring exceptions (Elincia, Haar, and potentially G and Mist if they're really obsessive and willing to ignore things).

so where on earth are support units like Rhys/Ilyana/Brom going to get the experience from? We could use a master seal but I'd prefer to use it on someone worthwhile like I don't know...Kieran?

Rhys is a 0-cost unit, one of three in the game. He actually kind of gives EXP back in the form of allowing your units to fight longer. He can easily get all his EXP from staff-use (and gold/stealing is so common/easy it's not an issue). Ilyana as well can resort to staves and siege-tomes once she promotes. It's not optimal, but it is doable. Brom has no excuse though (or Muarim for that matter).

So yes I would like to argue that supports are irrelevant here unless we want to play on easy mode (lol) Zihark and Mia are both going to be struggling to get experience along the way as both come pretty weak but at least Zihark comes with Adept so he can actually kill crap without prodding forges or criticals every hit.

Zihark will, on average, have a ~20% chance of activating Adept. That's not a lot and you're staking entire kills on it as opposed to just giving him a forged sword? Of which we have a lot of? And how is using criticals a bad thing when both Mia and Zihark can get 20-50% easy but Adept so awesome when it only gives a 20% average chance? I'd sooner give Zihark the vantage scroll and a +crit sword than rely on adept for kills if I somehow couldn't have both adept and vantage.

Zihark is marginally better than Mia unless you want to revolve your whole game around Mia in which case be my guest...

Erm. Mia is better when any effort is put into her for returns. Zihark is only better when no effort is put into her at all.

Don't bother trying to argue with me because if I want to use a footunit I'm happy with Ike/Stefan/Nephenee.

So if I said 'Ena > Ike and don't bother arguing because if I wanted to use a footunit I'm happy with Boyd, Devdan, and Soren' you shouldn't bother pointing out how/why that's wrong?

Nah dont do that. Soren getting hit is something you want to avoid because despite everything, hes still a wet cardboard box on 5th and Market. Wrath is hardly necessary for him to get the job done anyway.

Yea. It's a bad idea. Soren might get to 50% health easy, but you'll be stuck relying on his iffy dodge during the EP for every strike and he's very frail. Plus, once he doubles, he's not going to have any problems at all (Forged Thunder is, arguably, the most broken non-unique weapon in the game. Certainly up there, and Soren has PLENTY of magic to spare).

[eclipse]

"Zihark needs Muarim." What the hell am I reading..?

Someone who's relying on supports. Muarim IS a unique support to Zihark in this debate. Whether or not it is good, bad, or irrelevant is something that I can't answer.

[Elieson]

Just how often is mia ohko'ing while on vantage range?

[Brendor]

Pretty often lol

I gave her a killing edge and steel sword and she basically soloed chapter 12 and 13