How to make Armor Knights more valuable?

[Jedi]

So I was conceptualizing a possible hack or modification to some FE's at a point where I have some more free time. I was curious what the public thought at large of how to make Knights more of a valuable unit for even possibly LTC stuff (thats a stretch I know).

While I know some Armors have their fans and others don't care about overall balance. What do you lot feel would benefit them? More move? Possible canto? (I mean Generals do have some pretty nifty contraptions in the GBA ones like those spring loaded Lance and Axe launchers) More defensive maps? Or just really good bases (see Oswin and Gatrie)

What would make them more effective?

Edited November 26, 2014 by Jedi

[Refa]

Making them enemy only units who are really hard to defeat.

[Jedi]

Making them enemy only units who are really hard to defeat.

I suppose that could be a solution, but there has to be some way to get them up to speed other then that lol.

[dondon151]

i feel like we've had this thread before...

if dismounting existed, armor knights can promote to great knights, who dismount to generals indoors. that could make them more valuable overall. they could also get jetpacks and fly everywhere.

[Irysa]

Let them take off some armor for a def penalty and speed bonus, then just be soldiers.

[Refa]

Anything else would result in units who aren't really Armor Knights (more move and canto would just make them worse mounts) or units who aren't good because they're Armor Knights (choking points isn't really something that only Armor Knights can do, and as you can see by all of the Reclass hacks Oswin is waaaaaaaaaaaay better as almost any other class).

if dismounting existed, armor knights can promote to great knights, who dismount to generals indoors. that could make them more valuable overall. they could also get jetpacks and fly everywhere.

Brilliant!

Edited November 26, 2014 by Refa

[Jedi]

i feel like we've had this thread before...

if dismounting existed, armor knights can promote to great knights, who dismount to generals indoors. that could make them more valuable overall. they could also get jetpacks and fly everywhere.

Mecha Oswin! Would be a sight to see.

Let them take off some armor for a def penalty and speed bonus, then just be soldiers.

I had a concept that they'd get a forced march skill waaaaay back in the day. They'd get more mov on the turn at the cost of some HP, but I don't think that was too popular a concept.

Anything else would result in units who aren't really Armor Knights (more move and canto would just make them worse mounts) or units who aren't good because they're Armor Knights (choking points isn't really something that only Armor Knights can do, and as you can see by all of the Reclass hacks Oswin is waaaaaaaaaaaay better as almost any other class).

Brilliant!

This is quite true.. Maybe enemy only is the way to go. Or the Great Knight idea

[Roivann]

Perhaps balance the enemies around it so that high defense is something a lot more desireable?

[arvilino]

You could lower the defense base & growths of every other unit/class/character except Armoured Knights/Generals. Since the problem is other classes being able to fufil the same role without having the AK flaws and not the Knights themselves(outside cases such as Wendy).

AK's should be a lot more desirable if suddenly Cavaliers/Paladins or Wyvern Riders aren't able to take nearly as many attacks. You might want to rebalance the speed stat of the classes as well to ensure AK's have more physical durability most of the time.

Edited November 26, 2014 by arvilino

[Jiac]

I was thinking an auto protect skill, it was a concept I had in mind. Where an enemy tries to attack perhaps a weakend unit or knights can be set to this mode. Where if somebody in range gets attacked, they auto engage into battle instead to "protect" them. Makes them great to stick with healers.

EDIT: Being a semi-utility is always good.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Vermilia Scarlet

[Sasori]

I think Balancing armour knights statistically is a bit hard to do without changing the class fundamentally. They're supposed to be low movement units with bad speed and resistance, but good strenght and killer defence.

The best way to improve generals should be just to create more situations where there strenghts shine. Right now the high defense is rarely needed, the low speed and resistance hold them back from being truly bulky and most importantly their move just isn't good enough to keep up in most of the cases. The only place where there defense would't be overkill is in the early game and there being lance locked hold them back. Also wyverns having most of the same strenghts, but better speed and being a high movement flying unit isn't helping them either.

My first solution is more choke points and defence based maps, but thats kind of obvious.

The second solution I have is to give enemies better speed. Right now there are few enemies that can reliable double attack your units which hampers their offense. Sacea from Fe6 created a situation where armour knights had a good time because the place was filled with nomads and swordmasters. High speed, but low attack units that could give most of your units a hard time, but the high defense of the generals made them laugh at such enemies. Its just a shame the rest of the game hated generals.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Sasori

[dondon151]

Perhaps balance the enemies around it so that high defense is something a lot more desireable?

and yet you have to somehow make the low speed not undesirable. generals had crazy base def in FE11 and FE12, and they were generally bad even then because enemies on the harder modes doubled them. they could literally walk across the easier modes at a snail's pace, though.

EDIT: generals can also get passive authority stars or an innate charisma-like or daunt-like skill.

Edited November 27, 2014 by dondon151

[Axie]

Same movement as the rest of the infantry would be a big improvement already. Their heavy armor limiting their freedom of movement is already reflected in their low Speed base, which is salvageable; givig them one less Mov on top of it is way too limiting, and less movement simply spells doom because it's much harder to make up for less movement.

If their low Speed is still a problem even with more Mov, they could have some unique property that make them take even less damage. Maybe if they are doubled they could only take halved damage in the second attack?

[X-Naut]

I had the idea of giving armors a skill for percent-based damage reduction that activates on attacks not preceded by their own attack. For 1st tiers it would be at most 25% and only for physical damage, but for Generals it would halve physical damage and cut magic by 25%. Although if this is done they can't have a base Defense ten above the average Strength base.

Another idea is to re-implement Pursuit as a skill for certain classes that only works when initiating the attack. The narrower speed tiers (on defense at least) in tandem with the armors' defensive skills will make them more desirable for enemy phases that require fighting multiple enemies, especially on harder difficulties.

As for the movement issue I'd bring them up to standard infantry but keep their higher terrain penalties (although I'd let promoted versions cross hills).

[Ansem]

Give them beast RES in addition to their beast DEF.

[General Horace]

it really depends on the playstyle. If you're just playing at a slower pace, units like Oswin are pretty likely to be one of the best units on your team, since on promotion he's actually generally (kill me) fast enough to double a good majority of FE7's enemies, and can even OHKO the weaker ones whilst taking little to no damage. People who have issues with H5 use general Wolf/Sedgar to great success as well. I think they're actually pretty good for casual play.

but as for LTC, they're pretty boned. Like dondon said, you could give them a mount, but they really wouldn't be knights/generals anymore in that case, and if rescuing was a thing, they still have huge con in general making them hard to cart around sometimes.

[JamesBCrazy]

Make them more mobile so they're not lagging behind.

[Baldrick]

I like the auto-protect skill, it's probably enough to make them a good unit in casual play, but I don't think it would make any difference in LTC, since they can't keep up anyway.

To do that, I'll recycle what I said in the dismount thread and say make defence a static class-based stat, like move is. If the enemy is strong and accurate enough that mounts have no chance of rushing through a chapter, it will be necessary to have an armour knight take the point. I think this will give the first/best armour knight similar importance to clears that the first/best mount/flier/Warper has in LTC.

[Axie]

That makes Armors great at the cost of pretty much everyone else, though. Mages and healers would be particularly bad. Unless some other mechanic was created to make up for static Defense? Physical Pure Water/Barrier could be a good idea but I'm not sure if that's enough.

[Baldrick]

Healers get Warp/Rescue. Mages are traditionally supposed to be nukes, so maybe give them excellent offense, or even actually decent defence. From an LTC perspective, horses/fliers are the ones who most need a defence nerf because if they can survive the charge, they make all infantry units redundant.

[Tequila]

How about making it so all terrain that can normally be traversed by them costs 1 movement (except maybe mountains)? It wouldn't change anything on indoor maps, but it could help with forest-heavy maps where cavs don't do too well.

[Baldrick]

I think giving them jetpacks and making them fliers would work better (the idea of a low-move flier is one I've been considering and would definitely use in my hypothetical FE hack. the closest thing to that is unshifted ravens, but they get more move when they transform anyway)

[Sweet_Basil]

Nerf Cavaliers and Paladins to have much lower defense and resistance than the knights/generals, also give them higher base hp then the rest and slightly lower con to be able to be rescued by more people.

[Ownagepuffs]

Make more of them like Oswin whose durability is worth something for more than 5 seconds.

Alternatively, give them something only they can handle. Coming from Valkyria Chronicles experience, the Lancers were the equivalent of Knights, low mov high durability. However the lancers were the most reliable way to KO tanks, and that made them worth something. The problem with knights is low mov combined with entirely replaceable utility.

[BrightBow]

I would say the Armored Knights were handled well in Radiant Dawn. The biggest reason they usually can't do their supposed job properly is because a few points of Def don't make up for getting attacked twice in a row. Since they actually had decent stats in this game, they managed to have a genuine durability lead over other classes.

I guess EXP gain could still be a problem since the class isn't supposed to actually kill anything. Maybe they could get increased EXP on counters. Or maybe if they weaken an enemy, they could get a share of the EXP once that guy is killed.

Edited December 1, 2014 by BrightBow