Fire Emblem Binding Blade: Rebirth [In development]

[Irysa]

Your image doesn't detail where the horseslayer soldier is placed. You've also created a lot of empty space for no reason that wasn't there before (you don't even travel through it), whilst simulteanously creating a greater amount of clusterfuck due to increased enemy density at every corner. It feels like you've gone to extended effort to try to make sure that everyone has something to attack every turn, especially by introducing FLYING reinforcements in a map that previously had none, and where they will undoubtedly be in range of a unit or two on the turns they spawn. Flying reinforcements are among some of the most frustrating to deal with in the series, and this isn't a question of how easy it is to kill them. Unless you have no plans to implement a Hard Mode or the mechanics of it for reinforcements (move and attack same turn they spawn), then they'll just instantly full move south if theres nothing in range and be obnoxious dickheads on turn 4 immediately, because you won't be able to hit them on the mountains with any unit that isn't Thany, who isn't going to stand a chance of killing them by herself. It'll also be too cramped to make a good defensive formation because of the clusterfuck you've introduced in the middle of the map.

I don't think the mountain would path detract from that introduction. A new player would probably still see the fort as a key strategic point to rendezvous with Dieck, and possibly realise creative use of rescue could allow a unit to take that fort immediately. An experienced player might decide to ignore it but they likely wouldn't need the lesson anyway.

Dieck doesn't show up till after the first turn is over anyway though, so coming from a new player, there won't really seem to be any point in going the long way around at the start unless you want to rout the map or the enemies are dissuasively strong. And as is apparent by his recent image, he's also pretty much entirely wiped out the whole deal with the fort anyway, so it is quite literally completely removed. That's a huge loss.

You're arguing for map intent - while I agree that it was probably the original map's purpose, I don't think that it should be held in such a way that it's the ONLY way of doing things (which is sort of the sense I'm getting with your posts). FE allows for flexible strategies, and it's something I like about the series.

I'm in favour of flexability too, I was actually earlier complaining about some changes hindering strategic diversity. I'm not trying to say my observations are the only way to play that map. Rather, my criticism is directly related to the notion of attempting to "improve" FE6, which I find to be in conflict with the things he's presented which are diminishing the relevance of the original's design and the value of smart decisions present in the current game. Adding more does not equate to an improvement, and his reasoning for changing things doesn't really add up. He wants to promote strategic diversity but says that a chapter that in his view (not mine, his) encouraged use of rescue ferrying was dull and stuck out compared to other chapters which thought did not really promote it. Hasn't he demonstrably reduced the strategic diversity of the game as a whole by attempting to make it a more heavily combat orientated chapter instead?

It isn't a question about whether its the only way to go about designing or playing Chapter 2, its about what Chapter 2 facilitates in the original, and what his version does or does not do in comparison to that. This new version frankly does not really resemble the original at all and reeks to me of "If you don't have something to fight against right now, something's wrong!". If he wants to make "improved" FE6 that is a very different goal to "I want to make a romhack based on FE6", which is what this seems more and more like to me.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Irysa

[dondon151]

why is the armorslayer village so far away

i mean that's about the most dick thing you can do to this map; it's going to take at least 2 turns to get it and you may or may not be able to trade chain it depending on the enemy density.

Edited February 9, 2015 by dondon151

[Baldrick]

Dieck doesn't show up till after the first turn is over anyway though, so coming from a new player, there won't really seem to be any point in going the long way around at the start unless you want to rout the map or the enemies are dissuasively strong. And as is apparent by his recent image, he's also pretty much entirely wiped out the whole deal with the fort anyway, so it is quite literally completely removed. That's a huge loss.

Wyverns in chapter 2 aren't dissuasive?

Shows how good my memory is... but you do know a mercenary group is on the way, and there's a large gap in the enemy deployment. (That's another problem with the larger map, it's less clear where the mercs will arrive).

[General Horace]

It looks like you've added a lot of enemies to the map, and as a result, you've added a lot more exp to the map, which can create a pretty big power creep. A big reason I personally lose a lot of interest in hacks in general is you'll have a bunch of high levelled units with a lack of promotion items. On the other hand, if you have a level 15 Lance or Alan in chapter 7 or 8 (or whenever the first knight crest normally is, I forget) changing Percival will be the least of your worries.

I like that you've shown the map to us though, it's a good way to get criticism.

Edited February 9, 2015 by General Horace

[Czar_Yoshi]

I'm starting to feel like there's only so much you can do with your team on Cht.2, given that it's so early in the game (and especially if growths are lowered). Figuring out how to unravel whatever pile of enemies you make is going to be based entirely on who you deploy, because there's no time for teambuilding to kick in- what I'm saying is that it's probably better to focus on specific checks and counters later in the game to reward having a diverse team rather than now to promote deploying certain units. What the early maps probably should focus on is, rather than having you figure out the optimal way to the boss, figure out how to get exp to the units you want to have it- so try to do things like focus on what combinations of units can 2RKO certain enemies. As an example, in Awakening's Lunatic mode, there are two Barbarians at the start with insane amounts of HP, but after a single Silver Lance hit from Frederick, they can be OHKOed by anyone- try something like that, only a little more optional (trying to kill those Barbarians any other way is really hard). For example, you might make a pack of units specifically designed so that when you throw one specific unit in with a specific weapon (that they may have to trade for), their numbers and HP get thinned precisely to the point where some weak unit that you may want to train can go in there, kill one, and then survive and KO back all of them on EP. Or, should the player not want to do that, they just go down like ordinary enemies.

As for the Halberd soldier... Why not replace him with a really tanky Knight who packs very little punch, but takes a while to get rid of (maybe even is fast enough not to be doubled by Marcus? That way, you could have a choice between going around the long way and ignoring him (like normal), or have Marcus spend a few turns getting rid of him during which the rest of your army would fight the bottom LHS foes they normally would have gone through, but this time from a defensive position and without Marcus? That might be a more interesting trade, and with good Armorslayer positioning could even create another choice should you decide to fight the Knight: have Thany go get the Armorslayer to get rid of him faster, or use her to drop someone behind him to get more attacks in per turn?

[feplus]

What motivation does a player have to rescue-chain through Chapter 2?

1. It saves turns.

2. It saves a negligible amount of real time.

From a game design perspective, this is insufficient. Turn count has no value beyond self-imposed challenge runs, and turtling, while marginally slower in terms of real time, gives the player greater control over experience distribution and improves the odds of a successful map completion.

There are many sound criticisms of DLuna's proposed changes, but his belief that Ch.2 is dull and needs spicing up has merit. Some ideas I believe would work well:

1. Condense the map size, particularly the length of the bottom path. Nothing drastic, but enough to reduce tedium.

2. Add a secondary objective that tangibly rewards a player willing to move quickly. For example, add a few more columns of tiles to the right side of the map and plop down a village with a red gem or elixer, then add a brigand enemy unit who will reach the village in a handful of turns.

3. Introduce two or three high-movement enemies that spawn from the west side of the map. Too many extra enemies can lead to power creep, but a few (maybe one has a horseslayer to discourage Marcus use) avoids the power creep problem while also posing a risk to slow-pace players.

4. Some combination of the above.

[Blue Druid]

Uhm ... no it doesn't? Not more than other FE games do anyway. There isn't that much wrong with the game that it "definitely needs" an "upgrade".

Well, it's a matter of opinion. What I meant was that it needed better growths and an upgrade to those old animations like the sage and mercenary animations.

[Dunal]

Actually, I think a good question to be asked is: What are the strengths of CH2 (the original one)? What are its downfalls? I've failed to directly ask this question to others and that might benefit my perspective.

I'll do my best to analyse this myself firstly. It might explain my thought process better than I could before. I've tried thinking it through and taking into account things mentioned so far. And reconsidered a couple things, although by beliefs for some things still hold firm. I'll mention what I've attempted to do (ignore my execution for this part, it's the intent that matter) within the new map to maintain or improve good or bad aspects (that I personally acknowledge so far, which do differ between people and some are largely subjective).

Strengths mentioned (for the original map)

1) Tactical use of forts to deal with the large packs of enemies.

2) Need for skilled use of rescue to beat the map at a good pace (I'd consider this both a pro and con though TBH).

3) Dieck's group can get EXP/combat because Marcus isn't around(?).

4) The sub-objective (armorslayer) interacts directly with efficiently killing the boss. Sub-objective benefits the primary objective.

5) Aside from the forts, terrain is non-obstructing (compared to say, CH5, which is indeed something that hampers the long route a bit too much).

Does the new map maintain these?

1) Mostly, although the bottom left fort got removed and made more open, which has valid criticism since thinking it through, it's a good aspect of the original map. I mostly just relocated it to the fort right in the middle of the map.

2) Arguable. The bottom path is still very similar, and likely still the fastest route when you still take advantage of rescuing. But probably too fast though, since the southwest fort got removed, along with the enemies.

3) Yes. Although the mass of enemies near Dieck is notably less than before, since they're distributed more evenly through the map (the total amount of EXP is not much more than before overall, with any added being the reinforcements for the most part).

4) Yes, but it's harder to reach. May benefit being closer again, like others have mentioned. The reason I increased the height was for enemy placement purposes, including the Wyverns.

5) Bottom route is still the same in this regard. But the middle route has stricter terrain due to the shorter path. Feels warranted for that reason.

My own objective criticisms of the old map:

1) There is only really one viable strategy to beat the map -- by funnelling all your units around the bottom, aside from the minor diversion of the Village. Although Thany can be used in different ways at least, whether to ferry, take the village, or for combat if plausible. Nobody else really has much choice in regards to how they contribute to the map.

2) Enemies are all clustered together in two places (although the western enemy group isn't mass density so that part's fine). Particularly north of Dieck. The structure of them feels a bit haphazard and the fort placements don't really make them much of a threat, despite the huge numbers. As a side note, the enemy placement on the east looks awkward as heck, as if the creators just kinda vomited units in that area (just my personal stance on that one). =p

3) There are a few places in the map where there is just empty space. The entire bottom stretch of the map, as well as the village area. As an objective it really has no risk/accomplishment to it aside from a turn or two for a single unit.

4) Enemy diversity isn't all that interesting. You have mostly just Soldiers and Fighters, with only a couple mercs and archers. Boss aside, there's no target for Roy's rapier or the armorslayer and hammer. No flying enemies (or high mobility units) or mages to diversify things. An argument could be made that the game doesn't need tons of variation at this point, but it is otherwise dull IMO.

5) Roy's group has a whopping 6 enemy units to fight the entire map unless you forcefully hold Dieck back or not just rush Marcus to him. Wolt/Bors/Roy... even Alan/Lance might just attack once and that's it. It was argued that a good element of the original map was for Dieck's group getting combat experience but why it is a positive thing that he gets a lot of contribution but many other units do not (as if that doesn't matter)? That's why it seemed like a selective argument to me.

How do I attempt to fix those?

1) Almost every unit has plenty of options as to what they can do, or at least, it isn't completely obvious what they should do. Take someone like Wolt. They can go top and be great against the Wyverns. He can travel to Dieck and be useful there. Or go through the middle path to help clear the way, especially with the cleave bow. Same goes for Lance/Alan or Bors (well, Bors has two real options, Dieck route isn't that feasible for him unless rescued). Someone tried to argue that I'm lowering strategic diversity rather than increasing it. I really don't see why. I'd like to hear what your concept on 'strategic diversity' is. While a certain specific strat may be optimal on an absolute efficiency level (disregarding EXP/supports, things like that) for most players they can have their units go different routes as they choose. It isn't even an absurd concept to have Wade/Lot to go do the village before you seize the map.

2) While my showing of the map may make it seem like this haven't improved in the area I criticised, enemies are much spread out and the ones near Dieck have almost initially halved in number, for being a bit stronger. The initial map actually has one more enemy unit on the map then the new one, before the reinforcements (8 in total, 4 wyverns and 4 cavaliers). Overall that's about 50% more enemies but since you have your entire team to use rather than about half of them, it makes sense.

3) It's a fair argument that I haven't accomplished this much to a good degree, so either there should be a few more enemies or the map is made smaller, and the latter is very likely the better option. Nonetheless I feel it's an improvement still, aside from the bottom path. If even not that much.

4) I've added much more types of enemies as I feel that it just makes things more interesting. Not a whole lot else I can say here.

5) Enemies are now positioned so that every unit can contribute to a decent degree. I suppose my response to this overlaps with point 1 -- and it's the primary reason for the map change that I still hold firmly too.

So... this is basically a summary of my entire thoughts on CH2 and why I've made the changes I've made. And hopefully clarified my design goals a bit better.

If he wants to make "improved" FE6 that is a very different goal to "I want to make a romhack based on FE6", which is what this seems more and more like to me.

"Improvement" is entirely subjective. The fact you don't agree with my design philosophies doesn't really make the latter true. It's basically a different way of saying "your opinion is wrong, so therefore your intention isn't to improve". If I had zero objective points then you could consider that true, but I've certainly made some. Just agree to disagree. I will admit though that some perspectives of mine have totally changed in all this discussion. And some changes that I have made are more of a grey area that I'd thought. But again, there's still some perspectives I strongly hold onto. My analysis above may help you to understand why I felt the need to change some aspects, even if you don't agree.

Some criticisms so far have been very valid so I'll continue to make changes.

I'm also committed enough to make a separate, more minimalistic patch with far fewer map changes but with the content/story + balance changes that most people here would agree on. It's a fair concept, assuming people would appreciate the extra content/changes/story I add to begin with (which is an entirely different topic, of course). On that subject I've thought about the discussions made earlier in the topic... Well let's say my understanding of Percival's concept (as a unit) makes more sense to me now. 'Amazing' units can be healthy for the game in strict moderation (an important point to note). The concept of a failsafe unit I can better appreciate. I was probably being a little too harsh on Marcus too.

Edited February 10, 2015 by DLuna

[eclipse]

If you're going to make the Armorslayer village Way Over There, then Roy's Rapier does have a target, albeit not an ideal one - the boss.

[dondon151]

i'm pretty sure that in vanilla FE6, roy doesn't damage the boss even with the rapier.

[eclipse]

I think there was something about weapon effectiveness being changed in this hack, as well as growths? If so, then it might be possible.

[General Horace]

Weapon effectiveness is x3 in FE6 (it's why the S rank weapons are so strong against manaketes), but between Roy's base strength, and the +3 defence from the gate, and WTD effectively killing three more damage. Roy only ends up doing 2 damage. Even if Roy's base strength got buffed to 7 or something, he'd still be doing 5 damage a pop to the boss (if he's unchanged)

[eclipse]

Hmmm, that reminds me. . .assuming that the player skips the Armorslayer, can anyone else do any sort of competent damage to the boss ('sides Hammer)? Because if not, then it's either going to come down to counter Hammers or Rapier.

[General Horace]

Marcus can still hit him pretty hard with Silver.

Otherwise, not really.

[eclipse]

Gah, that's what I thought. Looks like it's going to come down to however else the game is tweaked, because I don't see a reason to get that Armorslayer (not if I'm going to be harassed by flying units).

[Irysa]

I think you kind of need the armorslayer to actually kill Devias in chapter 7...he's a really big pain in the ass otherwise, and the dude needs to die in a turn unless you like fighting a swathe of mage reinforcements. Like screw Hammers vs stuff on thrones ever, seriously.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Irysa

[Refa]

Well, it wouldn't be too hard to nerf throne bonuses in this hack (or at the very least, limit thrones to areas that are actually fucking thrones and have weaker gate bonuses, I dunno).

[Kysafen]

Maybe this one will get somewhere!

What are you using strikeout font for?

For all the goddamn projects started on this site to make a "definitive FE6," with new features, re spellings, characters, and chapters that ended up going fucking nowhere, it's pretty easy to be skeptical of a Re-FE6 project here.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Kysafen

[Dunal]

Well, it wouldn't be too hard to nerf throne bonuses in this hack (or at the very least, limit thrones to areas that are actually fucking thrones and have weaker gate bonuses, I dunno).

Thrones/gates have been nerfed to 20 avoid / +2 defense. And the +5 resistance got nerfed to +2 resistance. It's not like magical units dominate in this game. =p

There are now actually bosses that aren't stuck on a throne anyway. A lot of the outdoor maps + gaidens.

I've also considered some other terrain tweaks overall. I'm currently experimenting with mountains +20 avo, peaks + 30 avo and forests +15 avo. Forts stay the same.

Feel free to give feedback on that. It seems to work well in practice, but I'm not sure how others would feel about it. I think it better helps nerf enemy phase and encourages aggression on player phase, because a good player should be rewarded for the latter IMO. Forts are fine though, since they're quite rare and should be a stand-out tile for you to capture.

And it does just mean I can buff LCK on units who were already balanced to have good avo (should they still need it to be good).

What are you using strikeout font for?

For all the goddamn projects started on this site to make a "definitive FE6," with new features, re spellings, characters, and chapters that ended up going fucking nowhere, it's pretty easy to be skeptical of a Re-FE6 project here.

If anything, this acknowledgement just encourages me to finish it even more. I don't want to add to the problem.

For retrospect: the only other hacking project I've done is still being worked on after 5 years with 3 completed versions already done, with a 4th currently being made. I fully commit to things once I've started them.

it also means I do not start projects on a whim either. It's all or nothing.

I think you kind of need the armorslayer to actually kill Devias in chapter 7...he's a really big pain in the ass otherwise, and the dude needs to die in a turn unless you like fighting a swathe of mage reinforcements. Like screw Hammers vs stuff on thrones ever, seriously.

Shouldn't be an issue any more.

Side note: The Armorslayer is now received on CH1, but you get a weapon based on who entered the village. Roy/Alan = Armorslayer. Lance/Bors/Marcus = Heavy Spear. Wolt = Cleave Bow. This diversifies who can go on knight killing duty for the future maps.

EDIT: Actually I changed that back to CH2. CH1 you get a Goddess Icon on the north village (which don't sell for much anymore, I'm afraid =x). Forgot already... On that note, Wade no longer starts with the Hammer. Either he or lot need to go do the village. You only get 1 effective weapon, but a broader choice.

Roy's Rapier got buffed by 2 MT. That's a substantial buff on knights (+6 to be exact).

Edited February 11, 2015 by DLuna

[Irysa]

I couldnt be bothered to type out a lengthly reply beforehand so I'm doing this now.

"Improvement" is entirely subjective. The fact you don't agree with my design philosophies doesn't really make the latter true. It's basically a different way of saying "your opinion is wrong, so therefore your intention isn't to improve". If I had zero objective points then you could consider that true, but I've certainly made some. Just agree to disagree. I will admit though that some perspectives of mine have totally changed in all this discussion. And some changes that I have made are more of a grey area that I'd thought. But again, there's still some perspectives I strongly hold onto. My analysis above may help you to understand why I felt the need to change some aspects, even if you don't agree.

I don't think you respect the original enough to validate your work as solely improvements. I understand theres a fine line here in regards to romhacking and all with someone elses assets, but making drastic balance changes, map changes and the like basically means "well they did this, but I can do it way better". As someone who has worked on minor translation projects, mods and minor netcode stuff in various other games, I firmly believe that anyone attempting to actually create material that is supposed to be part of, or added onto, or an "improvement" or "fixing" of features in an original game not created by yourself should be exercising the largest amount of restraint possible when it comes to actually changing anything that is not blatantly a mistake. I think it's fine to try to build on ideas in your own way as a developer but you are essentially putting yourself on a pedestal by trying to affirm some definitive version of a game over the original. In the same way I absoloutely don't condone miscommunications or rewrites in TLs because someone thought their way of expressing something was better, I don't condone drastic changes like you're making that change the original game so much.

To go over some minor points, introducing Wyvers as an enemy type in Chapter 2?

Chapter 1 has - Fighters, Brigands and Archers. Three enemy types, two use axes so they are pretty similar.

Chapter 2 - Introduces Mercenaries and Soldiers, and has a Knight as a boss.

Chapter 3 - Introduces Cavaliers, Knights as regular enemies, and also brings forward reinforcements in areas that are unlikely to cause problems.

Chapter 4 - Nomads and Myrmidons,

Chapter 5 - Mages, Pirates.

Chapter 6 - Thieves, a Shaman as a boss and a LOT of Mages.

Chapter 7 - Basically supposed to be the peak of difficulty for earlygame, Wyverns show up and are meant to be some of the most dangerous enemies on the map. Enemy healers are also here to heal these guys if you don't kill them cleanly.

What is wrong with this progression of enemy diversity? You say Chapter 2 has low enemy diversity when its got all 4 different enemy weapon types in place, and is only the second chapter in the game, but the progress from the original and the sort of peak and "oh shit"ness value of Wyverns showing up and meaning serious business has basically been degraged by your change.

I could ramble on about more examples as such but honestly, I don't really care anymore, because like I've said, your intent is to make a more ambitious romhack based on FE6 rather than an attempt to make small fixes here and there. Although if you're making a minimalistic version I may play that.

[Blue Druid]

Oh, I forgot to mention (even though it's been two months since the last post), I highly recommend that you fix the generic boss palettes. They actually do have palettes in the game's code but for some reason they do not appear, and this can be fixed in Nightmare. It's a small aesthetic difference, but it would be nice.

[Dunal]

Oh, I forgot to mention (even though it's been two months since the last post), I highly recommend that you fix the generic boss palettes. They actually do have palettes in the game's code but for some reason they do not appear, and this can be fixed in Nightmare. It's a small aesthetic difference, but it would be nice.

Sure. I'd likely end up just making palettes for generics as well. At least on maps against multiple armies.

Graphical stuff is low in priority for the first releases though. Only concerned with gameplay/story currently.

As an update, first demo will be prologue to CH3. First impressions are everything however so playtesting/tweaking will be ongoing for a while longer.

Edited April 30, 2015 by DLuna

[Blue Druid]

Oh, okay then. Good luck!

[catL0L2000]

So is this thing still alive?

[CloakCard]

Is it dead or still working?