FE6 HM LTC V1 - Completed in 133 Turns

[Irysa]

Tate probably will be kinda useless but I haven't run it yet so I don't know. A spare 8 mov flier is definitely beneficial in 13 and 14 though.

Chapter 17 for Ilia has much better Arena access for random units (it's accessible on turn 2 by like everyone) whilst the Throne is being ran to, and that translates into more money for Boots.

Chapter 17 for Ilia sells Killer Lances, and I'll have the Silver Card by then, wheras I don't on Chapter 13. I must admit I have not finely planned out my money but I'm pretty sure I only need to buy like 4 or 5 Killer Lances, some tomes for Lilina and some chest keys and that's like it for the whole run until the Secret Shop. I mean I guess delaying it by one chapter isn't a big deal since they're in 18 for Sacae.

19 I'm not sure on (Saul's Warp Range will have to be really high to allow Roy and Lilina to not get clogged up near the boss, or I have to spend 2 turns getting them up near the wall), 18 probably does save a turn or two, but the main problem is 20x, the last time I went to Sacae, 20x would just never have the real throne be on the top right near Roy. Is there some trick to that I don't know about?

As for the Warp Range, I guess if I have leftover Warp and Rescue then I don't need it in Chapter 23. I hadn't factored that in.

I think the biggest problem with Sacae is just having enough EXP to go there unless I purposely sandbag Shanna :\

Edited February 16, 2015 by Irysa

[Lord Raven]

Lance actually doubles consistently as early as Chapter 3 if you manage to get him to Level 4 and rig speed onto him for every level.

[Yojinbo]

You can easily go to Sacae without neglecting Shanna. Since you won't use Dieck [and don't actually need Rutger if you rig Marcus' level ups] there will be plenty of opportunity to give Sue some leftover exp in Ch.7 and Ch.8 before Lilina joins. Tate's pretty bad as a combat unit anyway and she only needs 200 exp to promote so she's pretty much a non-issue.

[Actually, now that I think about it I'm not really sure what you'll need Alance for either. Unless one of them has better stats than Zealot by Ch.7 I don't really see the point of not just using Marcus/Zealot and rigging their level ups. Since you decided to not use Rutger there won't be a way around rigging Marcus' level ups anyway].

[Lord Raven]

With enough rigging you can get Lance to have more str/spd by Chapter 7 than both Zealot and Marcus :)

I think you can get Lance to Level 8 or 9 by chapter 7 pretty easily.

[Carmine Sword]

Rig Marcus and Zealot to be better than Percival just for the hell of it.

[dondon151]

i've been helping lord raven out so i should pitch in my thoughts on this.

1. the choice of earlygame cav doesn't matter too much. i think lance is better because with rigged growths, he doubles faster and positive feedback takes over sooner. overall the earlygame cav isn't going to save turns outside of maybe chapter 7. he is likely going to end up being the substitute boss killer for rutger, though. shanna is a much higher priority because she requires more work to get going and she needs big stats for chapter 14.

2. sacae takes fewer turns than ilia with growths and a lot of rigging. niime doesn't need to train up dark rank and her role tends to be smaller in growths LTCs anyway because she doesn't have to use apocalypse for anything. also, even if you were going to ilia, you'd still have a hard time training niime's dark rank because chapter 19I can be done in 3 turns with growths.

3. rutger doesn't really hurt overall; he doesn't help much either, though. i think investing a little in him may still be a good idea for chapter 7 since chances are, your cav can't use the killing edge. if he's L10, why not promote him for leygance and henning, otherwise fuck him.

keep in mind that if you're recruiting cass, in a growths playthrough you want to take 8 turns on chapter 12 to recruit her there because you can definitely do chapter 16 in less than 8 turns.

Edited February 17, 2015 by dondon151

[Yojinbo]

keep in mind that if you're recruiting cass, in a growths playthrough you want to take 8 turns on chapter 12 to recruit her there because you can definitely do chapter 16 in less than 8 turns.

Can he get all the important treasure in such a low amount of time?

[dondon151]

that's up to his planning prowess to decide, not me.

[Irysa]

I think I can get everything important in sub 8 turns, but we'll see.

Also, I did a v3 of C1 but I won't post it, since all I do is rig a perfect level for Alan at the end, since it's PP and there's nothing else to do, so I have no reason not to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uK3ZQy7abI&feature=youtu.be

Chapter 2 is completed in 5 turns.

I really REALLY liked ltcing this map. If you're reading this DLuna then up yours because this map is great.

I wrote a short lua script to help me burn RNs faster, which is why it looks like I'm in a TAS sometimes! The only time you're likely to see that kind of crazy RN burning is to rig perfect levels. I won't rig crazy crits or dodges to make strategies work though, only what's absoloutely neccessary.*

Dieck's crit on Turn 2 is uneccessary since I could just use an Iron Blade to ORKO and Lott trades him back anyway, but since the crit is just sitting there I may as well use it and save an Iron Blade use. It's worth slightly more money per use <_<

I really wanted to give Shanna that Archer Kill on Turn 3 but the Fighter near the top of the map won't move down unless you move up that far and attack (or at least I couldn't get him to move down otherwise), so he blocks the way to the boss and just generally ruins everything. Attacking the Merc with Marcus's handaxe on that same turn may look stupid but it gets the Merc to attack him on the forest tile instead of Dieck, so Dieck's chance of death goes down significantly, as the Soldiers then proceed to attack other targets instead of ganging up on him. It also lets Marcus build Axe Rank.

Cherish that victory theme, because this is probably the last map you'll ever get to hear it, or see a full rout in an FE6 LTC.

*I'm basically allowing myself to rig as many hits as I want, but I won't do shit like rig 5 consecutives dodges on Shanna when she gets 2HKO'd at 70% hitrate or something like that. Hence why I can't feed her that much EXP.

[spoiler=EP Stats]

Turn 3

EP Stats
Dieck 23hp
42 Hit 11 Atk
39 Hit 9 Atk

Shanna 17hp
45 Hit 8 Atk

Turn 4

Lott
85 Hit 15 Atk
36 Hit 9 Atk
36 Hit 9 Atk

[spoiler=Large RN Burns]

Turn 1

Merlinus Arrow U4R1 Cycle (RDULx338)

Turn 2

Merlinus Arrow D4R1 Cycle (RUDLx436)

Turn 3

Shanna Arrow U6R1 Cycle (RDULx81)

Turn 5

Shanna Arrow D6R1 Cycle (RUDLx447)

Edited February 18, 2015 by Irysa

[Belf]

Lol, is it just retracing the path automatically until you get the right set of RNs? I would have just set everyone's growths to 100%, but I guess this works too. Great work so far.

[Irysa]

I'm trying to add onto the rngdisplay.lua with features but I'm having difficulties implementing some of them, so at the moment all I'm working with is a separate simple macro script to cycle on the outside of mov once per 2 frames. I still have to ballpark the distance to the desired RN set and I can only see forward 500, so a lot of the time I'm basically just setting it to cycle 50~100 times and checking the rngdisplay, then repeating or manually burning when I get close to count the amount I need. I want to eventually just combine the scripts so I can get it to do different types of macros for RNG burning at a keyboard input, and so I don't have to constantly unload and reload different scripts. But I have to be honest, I crash coursed myself in lua literally today to code this, and I have basically zero programming knowledge from beforehand so idk if I can actually do that.

As for setting growths to 100%, that's cheating. I think one of the more compelling things about runs like this is that you can still do this on a cart if you copy exactly what I do off fresh resets. Sure it'll take like, at least 5 minutes to do some of the RN burning manually compared to what I'm doing via scripting, but it's possible! That's partially why I'm listing the cycles I'm using too. I could actually have just settled for stuff like skipping resistance (since it's so low for most chars in this game) but I figure if I have the power to do it, I'm going to do it, and it's possible it makes a difference somewhere. Although there is probably an upper limit on how long I can spend burning RNs and have people still watch videos unless I start editing the video speed in those segments. But at the least, I'm only going to be rigging growths in that manner, not dodges and crits and shit.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

man, if you're gonna use thany you have to get her more than 38 exp this chapter

it's remarkeable how much easier it is to get her exp in the next few chapters if she has even +2str/spd.

[Irysa]

It's way too hard to get her EXP here without facing really high chances of death because the EP on turn 3 is just brutal and only Dieck and Marcus can really survive it. Like I said, I'm not comfortable rigging dodges in that manner. It's way easier to feed kills in C3 and 4 so I think I can manage. If I could figure out some way to get her that Archer on Turn 3 this would be kinda okay though.

EDIT: Shit I might be onto something.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Irysa

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

Damn, watching that makes me wish FE4 RNG abuse could be that fast...

[Belf]

As for setting growths to 100%, that's cheating. I think one of the more compelling things about runs like this is that you can still do this on a cart if you copy exactly what I do off fresh resets. Sure it'll take like, at least 5 minutes to do some of the RN burning manually compared to what I'm doing via scripting, but it's possible! That's partially why I'm listing the cycles I'm using too. I could actually have just settled for stuff like skipping resistance (since it's so low for most chars in this game) but I figure if I have the power to do it, I'm going to do it, and it's possible it makes a difference somewhere. Although there is probably an upper limit on how long I can spend burning RNs and have people still watch videos unless I start editing the video speed in those segments. But at the least, I'm only going to be rigging growths in that manner, not dodges and crits and shit.

Whether it's cheating or not to hack 100% growths for the purpose of an LTC, what you're doing is essentially the same thing. The end result is the same, minus the time wasted burning hundreds of RN's. Why do you think they prevented path retracing in RD? And honestly, no one is going to waste their time reenacting this run.

[General Horace]

It's way too hard to get her EXP here without facing really high chances of death because the EP on turn 3 is just brutal and only Dieck and Marcus can really survive it. Like I said, I'm not comfortable rigging dodges in that manner. It's way easier to feed kills in C3 and 4 so I think I can manage. If I could figure out some way to get her that Archer on Turn 3 this would be kinda okay though.

EDIT: Shit I might be onto something.

the odds of thany doding like 2 of 3 60's is way more likely than a perfect level on anybody excpet karel

like the odds of an Alan perfect level is roughly 0.06%, and his growths are all pretty high honestly (except res).

You can get Thany to kill the solider Dieck critted on turn 2, and she'll counter another Javelin solider on the enemy phase. Dieck can chip the archer he killed on turn 3, and Thany can kill with the slim lance, and someone can weaken the merc to be in KO range on the enemy phase for her to kill, and at worst, she'll have to dodge 2 fighters and a merc (at like, ~49, and ~59 hit, it's not even that bad) and can probably even get hit by one depending on her hp. Then she can kill the archer by the throne with the help of one of the fighters, and she'll be close to or above level 3 without much risk of death.

EDIT: Also I hope you don't take my comments in a negative light, I just know from personal experience it sucks when you get to a later chapter and realize "dammit I really wish I had one more point of strength or an extra weapon level" or something.

Edited February 18, 2015 by General Horace

[Gradivus.]

I'm not hacking either to make every attack after a map save crit just to make the final result the same on my FE12 run, or I could hack my MU to 0% Lck growth because chapter 21; I do rig crits, growths and / or devil weapon hits from map saves, and arguably it makes for the same to hack it and save those 2 minutes spent additionally because no one would bother to 100% replicate my strats, but I'd practically lose any right to claim having achieved the lowest TC just because I hacked, even though that hack wouldn't influence the turn count. @ Belf

[Irysa]

the odds of thany doding like 2 of 3 60's is way more likely than a perfect level on anybody excpet karel

like the odds of an Alan perfect level is roughly 0.06%, and his growths are all pretty high honestly (except res).

I know, but I view that as different because if we're examing how growths change strategies, then either it has to be an average stats LTC, or extreme growths LTC. I don't think the former has to neccessitate making unelegant strategies.

You can get Thany to kill the solider Dieck critted on turn 2, and she'll counter another Javelin solider on the enemy phase. Dieck can chip the archer he killed on turn 3, and Thany can kill with the slim lance, and someone can weaken the merc to be in KO range on the enemy phase for her to kill, and at worst, she'll have to dodge 2 fighters and a merc (at like, ~49, and ~59 hit, it's not even that bad) and can probably even get hit by one depending on her hp. Then she can kill the archer by the throne with the help of one of the fighters, and she'll be close to or above level 3 without much risk of death.

1. That one isn't doable since I need her to pull Marcus over so he can actually reach the boss in time.

2. Yeah, that's the one I'm saying I wanted her to get, but I was having issues with activating the the Fighter if Marcus didn't fullmove, but I think I've figured something out with Marcus carrying Roy instead.

3. The issue there is being able to actually get Roy to the throne with Marcus (since Thany isn't carrying him) if stuff isn't cleared out properly. But like I said, I think I've got the AI manip down for this turn so I can cook something up better. I think. Marcus will need to crit the boss though :\

Whether it's cheating or not to hack 100% growths for the purpose of an LTC, what you're doing is essentially the same thing. The end result is the same, minus the time wasted burning hundreds of RN's. Why do you think they prevented path retracing in RD? And honestly, no one is going to waste their time reenacting this run.

There's a degree of authenticity to having it done in the way the game actually is, even if it's just saving time. Also sure, nobody's going to reenact it, but where are we going to draw the line? Why don't I just hack all enemies to have 0% hit and all my characters to have 100% crit 100% hit? It has to say within the bounds of what the game is.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

I know, but I view that as different because if we're examing how growths change strategies, then either it has to be an average stats LTC, or extreme growths LTC. I don't think the former has to neccessitate making unelegant strategies.

1. That one isn't doable since I need her to pull Marcus over so he can actually reach the boss in time.

2. Yeah, that's the one I'm saying I wanted her to get, but I was having issues with activating the the Fighter if Marcus didn't fullmove, but I think I've figured something out with Marcus carrying Roy instead.

3. The issue there is being able to actually get Roy to the throne with Marcus (since Thany isn't carrying him) if stuff isn't cleared out properly. But like I said, I think I've got the AI manip down for this turn so I can cook something up better. I think. Marcus will need to crit the boss though :\

There's a degree of authenticity to having it done in the way the game actually is, even if it's just saving time. Also sure, nobody's going to reenact it, but where are we going to draw the line? Why don't I just hack all enemies to have 0% hit and all my characters to have 100% crit 100% hit? It has to say within the bounds of what the game is.

i present the best strategy ever^tm

start of turn 3, Thany killed one soldier and weakened the one in front of Dieck

start of turn 4. Thany killed the archer that was left of Dieck, and a fighter weakened by handaxe!Marcus (doesn't orko by 2HP)

Alan has the armourslayer.

start of turn 5. Thany kills a merc weakened by Dieck and Marcus previously. Ward passed Roy to Lott who passed him to Dieck, who dropped him below the fighter (now to Roy's right). Alan gave Marcus the armourslayer last turn. (or he could this turn, I forget)

Lott + Thany kill the archer, Marcus handaxes the boss, and Dieck takes the armourslayer to secure the kill.

could actually get one more kill if you equip her with a javelin on the turn 3 EP, but I didn't think of it until now. So she could be like, 3.50? It's not even too bad reliabilty wise, the fighters have 59 hit on her (she needs to get hit by one on turn 3 so she gets targetted on turn 4), the merc has 49 hit, and the javelin soldiers have 30 hit). Considering some stuff other units will likely go through later, it's really not bad at all.

also awful levels lol, i guess base thany can do the same thing here as +2str/+2spd thany

The only time I rescued anyone was rescuing Roy on turn 2, and rescuing Marcus turn 1.

Edited February 18, 2015 by General Horace

[dondon151]

irysa doesn't really even need perfect level ups; str/skl/spd is the baseline and occasionally getting one of the other 4 stats is nice.

[Irysa]

I don't need it, but again, the point is I'm not capable of calculating when it may possibly make a difference to have x of a certain stat. It's likely it's all a waste of time but I don't see the harm in attempting to do it if I can. If perfect levels don't coincide with what needs to actually happen in the middle of EP it gets murky so I may have to just concede those ones. This all really came about because I was doing C2 and was like "Man, Roy won't get enough levels to make a difference defensively since that's like the only thing he actually cares about most of the time" so I rigged him a perfect one, then thought "why the hell shouldn't I do that for everyone else?"

i present the best strategy ever^tm

Man you should be doing this instead of me. I got her to level 2 last night then went to bed.

At this rate Horace will end up taking credit for like most of the chapters lol.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

The only reason i've had suggestions for stuff in the first few chapters because i've been helping Raven with a few chapters here and there. I don't have the patience to actually do an fe6 run, lol.

[Carmine Sword]

"How to LTC Fire Emblem 6"

Written by Irysa

Ghost Written by General Horace and Dondon151

Jokes aside, there's no shame in having some help in planning out Chapter strategies and exp allocation. FE6 is kind of unexplored territory in terms of doing a LTC with growths, so having some help is probably a good thing.

On a related note, will we get to see Marcus get a perfect level up? I can't imagine how long it would take to rig a perfect level for Marcus given his growths.

[dondon151]

I don't need it, but again, the point is I'm not capable of calculating when it may possibly make a difference to have x of a certain stat. It's likely it's all a waste of time but I don't see the harm in attempting to do it if I can.

well the reason why str/skl/spd level ups are important is that usually if you don't have the HP or def to survive something on enemy phase, if you have enough spd (and i guess luk), you can just rig dodges anyway. FE6 has low weapon hit and enemies tend to have steel weapons or throwing weapons, so dodge rigging is even easier in general. TASes don't bother getting perfect level ups because dodge rigging can take the place of durability rigging, but you can't rig offense beyond a certain point.

for example, in the NM speedrun i routed, i basically settled for 4-stat or 5-stat level ups as long as they contained the big three.

also horace is really adept at maximizing EXP gain with turn constraints using strategies of dubious reliability. it's something you gotta do a lot in FE7 and FE8 LTCs. i'm really just good at seize maps while avoiding combat as much as possible, which does not line up with the goals of this playthrough, lol. i sincerely doubt you're going to achieve strategic "elegance" (whatever that means) since fairly often you're going to have to do the beamcrash-esque thing of rigging unlikely enemy phases just to gain more EXP.

Edited February 18, 2015 by dondon151

[Irysa]

well the reason why str/skl/spd level ups are important is that usually if you don't have the HP or def to survive something on enemy phase, if you have enough spd (and i guess luk), you can just rig dodges anyway. FE6 has low weapon hit and enemies tend to have steel weapons or throwing weapons, so dodge rigging is even easier in general. TASes don't bother getting perfect level ups because dodge rigging can take the place of durability rigging, but you can't rig offense beyond a certain point.

TAS doesn't care about stuff like chance of death though. Yeah, perfect levels aren't reliable, but I basically estimated that with average stats it's extremely unlikely I can save more than a few turns compared to 0%, so I decided a more extreme stat total would at least demonstrate any possible benchmarks more appropriately. Turning a 3HKO into a 4HKO is actually quite feasible for a lot of these units, and could make a diff to how flexible strategies get. Plus it turns into net less rigging later on if I don't have to rig consecutive dodges. Like, my previous limiitation against doing stuff like this is "I'll get bored/forget/take too long to rig levels like this", but since I can write a script to burn the exact amount I want as fast as possible, and I'm already using a script to see the RNG, I feel that the only reason not to is my own laziness. Plus it's something of a novelty anyway. If I manage to keep up a perfect stat history throughout the game then I might name the run to "100% Growths*" (even if it actually isn't), in honor of your 0% playthroughs haha. Both examine different ends of a spectrum.

Basically I kind of want the strategies themselves to feel elegant rather than just "hypothetically possible" because then I'd just rig 1% crits non stop, and you've already set the baseline for what you can do without stats.

also horace is like, really good at maximizing EXP gain with turn constraints using strategies of dubious reliability. it's something you gotta do a lot in FE7 and FE8 LTCs. i'm really just good at seize maps while avoiding combat as much as possible, which does not line up with the goals of this playthrough, lol.

See that's kinda why I wanted to LTC 6 instead of any other game lol, I actually prefer just avoiding combat too and honestly hate rout maps with a passion, I am completely awful at planning routs. Chiki already obliterated Tellius (although I'm interested in no bexp as a category), FE11 warpless might be interesting but Horace basically did like 90% of the work before he deleted all his videos (or something), FE12 is only really improvable with deaths and stuff (don't like this), and I haven't even finished FE13 yet.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Irysa