Classes that need a buff/nerf?

[Irysa]

I said mounted LONGBOW access, not mounted bow access. Mounted longbow lets you easily snipe a bunch of problematic enemies who are in otherwise unreachable locations. Mounted bow access has far more applications. Chapter 12 is another example of where bows are actually incredibly useful because the majority of the map's enemies are in walls and only attack at 2 range. 20x (if you aren't warpskipping it) is another. And Nomads are abundant throughout Sacae, not just on that map. Even ignoring this, FE6 is seize only game, so you only really need to kill the targets in the way of you getting to the throne, so not killing everything on enemy phase isn't a big deal most of the time anyway.

Javelins and Handaxes suck in FE6. 50/55 hit is just way to inaccurate to make them worth relying on unless you are rigging a lot, especially in a game where enemies have existant luck for avo. Early on, Marcus can pull acceptable hitrates with them but after that, a heavily trained Dieck is one of the only good users of 1-2 due to his high skill. The only enemies you will really be able to reliably use them against in FE6 are Soldiers and Knights, the former stop showing up after Chapter 8 and the latter take piddly damage from them.

Shin is definitely better than Alance on HM btw. He has unique contributions that can only really be next achieved by Sue who requires a lot more training than he does, and he's good off the bat. Alance are seriously overrated and do little but selfimprove for half the game to be worse Percivals and slightly better Marcus/Zealots (and the latter two can pretty easily fill in for their potential promoted roles until like chapter 17 or so).

Edited March 11, 2015 by Irysa

[Vascela]

What "problematic enemies" do you want to specify? The unpromoted mages? That's not a mounted long bow exclusive (in plenty of cases even 2 range hits those). Chapter 12 is no way an exclusive to long bow units. It's helpful to be mounted, but what separates a mounted bow user from a cavalier here? Other than not having the option for 1 range?

Weapon hit rate != actual hit rate. Hit is generally much lower in FE6, but that doesn't stop you from getting relevant high rates. Bows aren't the only thing that hit enemies. And on top of that, bows aren't the only thing that can deal with enemy bow users.

If there's something to say, it's bow users don't get this exclusive benefit of being able to do something, they just do it worse or in a situation where they perform equal at best. I'll also disagree with Shin > Lance and Alan

Edited March 11, 2015 by Vascela

[Irysa]

What "problematic enemies" do you want to specify? The unpromoted mages?

Enemy staff/siege tome users who are in non 2 range reachable locations or powerful magic users. EG, you can snipe the Sleep Staff Priest on Chapter 12 immediately with a longbow, the Chapter 16 Bolting Mage, the 16x Bolting Sage, the Druids on Chapter 22 etc. Yes, a non mounted Bow user can use the longbow too but being mounted is just way better in FE6 since you have to be ferried around so much in remotely efficient play.

Chapter 12 is no way an exclusive to long bow units.

It's not an exclusive but it is massively more reliable and easier to use Klein or Shin to deal with the enemies in the middle. You can't even leverage WTA vs those guys since they're all bow or magic users.

It's helpful to be mounted, but what separates a mounted bow user from a cavalier here? Other than not having the option for 1 range?

Having access to accurate 2 range weaponry...as I've stated repeatedly. Also not contesting a single promotion item for half the game. Seriously there's only one knight crest until chapter 15, that's pretty awful. Klein, Igrene and Shin are flat out some of your best units for the midgame of FE6 and even untrained contribute in lategame because of the ability to blick Wyverns.

Weapon hit rate != actual hit rate. Hit is generally much lower in FE6, but that doesn't stop you from getting relevant high rates. Bows aren't the only thing that hit enemies. And on top of that, bows aren't the only thing that can deal with enemy bow users.

Have you played FE6 HM? Of course weapon hitrate doesn't equal actual hitrate, but enemy Avo combined with low hitrate on 1-2 weapons has a serious impact on the accuracy of those weapons. Enemies are generally packing between 25 to 30 avo in this game (and those are the NON dodgy enemies), and a generous skill estimate of 15 only barely cancels that out. That means we're left with luck/2 + weaponhitrate, which leaves us at like 50 to 60 displayed hitrate with most characters using a handaxe or javelin. Compared that to bows, where suddenly we have something like 70 to 80 displayed hitrate, which is a big deal when we consider truehit. Most of the more dangerous enemies in this game consist of fast sword users and Wyvern Riders/Lords. The former can't be doubled by most units so you need to chip them first, so chip without counterattack is good from a bow user (esp when packing a Killer Bow), and the latter are very bulky and hard to kill without Aircalibur or Bows.

Bows and Anima magic can deal with enemy bow users on EP, but Magic users in FE6 are all pretty bad combat wise except for Niime, who still needs a wealth of statboosters to pull off a nostank.

I'll also disagree with Shin > Lance and Alan

Lance and Alan aren't bad units but they just don't really DO very much helpful at all for most of the time they're in use. Marcus still has to baby them like anyone else, and they don't take off really fast, and only become actually "good" around about in Chapter 8x/9 because now they can promote and actually ORKO enemies that aren't Soldiers.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Irysa

[Jedi]

There is also that hill in 10A where Sue and/or Shin can use as a vantage point for shooting. Quite nifty. Considering the amount of enemies on that map

Edited March 11, 2015 by Jedi

[General Horace]

don't get me wrong, bows are pretty good in FE6, but calling Igrene or Klein some of the better units in the game is kind of ridiculous. They're good for a while yes, but their stats really aren't that impressive for very long. 1-2 range isn't particularly good in FE6 because magic users suck in general, but countering at 1 range is still a HUGE boon that people are seemingly forgetting about. Shin is a very good unit, he has great mobility and is probably one of your best units in Sacae, but he's very very mediocre in the western isles compared to literally anyone that can wield a sword (except like, Roy and Chad) and he's only mediocre in Ilia. Bow seem good in theory later game when there are a bunch of Wyverns, but they're good for blicking one per enemy phase, and aside from the wyvern lords (which they are very good against) they aren't needed at all.

I'd consider Shin about equal with Alance just because they're simply around for the hardest part of the game, and they're still better than Shin for a while (and probably forever if you go to Ilia). Shin's probably better on Sacae though.

[ZemZem]

Bows are quite useful in FE6, especially in HM. Wolt's chip damage is valuable in the harsh earlygame chapters, which I'd say are the hardest chapters in the entire game.

Shin and Sue are up there, IMO, in the list of great FE6 units. Klein and Igrene are decent, as well. Hell, Wolt and Dorothy aren't trash tier since they contribute quite a bit early on.

[-Cynthia-]

I mean Igrene and Klein aren't top tier or anything, but they're in the top half of units. They also wouldn't be significantly improved by being axe/sword/lance locked IMO.

Alance don't really do anything significant in Ilia anyway and Shin is better lategame because he can ORKO Manaketes without a counter. Alance has to compete for Durandal and Maltet with Percival and Miledy. They can use Wyrmslayers I guess, but those often lack the Mt to ORKO.

[Irysa]

don't get me wrong, bows are pretty good in FE6, but calling Igrene or Klein some of the better units in the game is kind of ridiculous.

Lets review this.

Units that are definitely BETTER than Klein and Igrene

Rutger

Miledy

Percival

Marcus

Zealot

Lalum/Elphin

Saul

Niime

Shin

Astol

I think nobody would disagree with these. So in terms of actually decent to good units remaining we have

Zeiss

Alan

Lance

Dieck

Tate

Shanna

Cecilia

Igrene

Klein

Clarine

Sue

Lugh

Noah

Echidna

Fir

Elen

Gonzales

I think that Clarine, Sue, Lugh, Noah, Echidna, Fir, Elen and Gonzales are worse than the two snipers. I think that Tate, Shanna and Cecilia are about equal. Zeiss, Alance and Dieck are ahead. Igrene and Klein do not require training or contested promotion items in order to be helpful so this helps their case out a bit. So in terms of units they're sitting in that roughly equal top 15 point. Klein doesn't do much in his join chapter, but is worth deploying in C12, 13, arguably 14, and from then on contests his spot with Igrene since he is kind of a worse version of her with Silver Bows unless he is invested in (he has okay growths). Igrene can be useful in her join chapter, and is worth deploying in 16 (16x if you aren't using Shin for some reason since Speedwings Igrene is the next best way to get rid of the Bolting Sage), 17I/S, 18I/S, 19I/S, 21, 22, 23 which is almost every remaining chapter minus gaidens. If you aren't doing 20 quickly she could help out but really is just a filler unit so I won't count it.

There is rather a large gap between the first units I listed (who are all basically no brainers and have massive contributions) and the second clump, but the second clump are definitely still decent units. Igrene and Klein being in the top half of that clump to me indicates that they are among the better units in the game.

I'd consider Shin about equal with Alance just because they're simply around for the hardest part of the game, and they're still better than Shin for a while (and probably forever if you go to Ilia). Shin's probably better on Sacae though.

Alance don't even really do anything that helpful in that hardest part of the game though. They are consistently left cleaning up after Marcus and Zealot until one of them makes it to promotion and then are "good" in the easiest part of the game. Following that, Miledy and Percival do all the heavy lifting and they're just not really ever particularly helpful in ways that Marcus or Zealot couldn't be. I'll admit that in a pure vaccum ignoring other units, they are quite decent on paper but the actual standard HM experience is not really all that favorable too them and Shin at least has a fairly strong niche comparatively. Shin also easily ORKOs Manaketes without taking a counter which is a really big deal when you consider that's practically an exclusive for him. Klein and Sue have an okay shot of pulling it off too but are quite far behind.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

I wouldn't call the 18th best unit in the game "among the best units in the game".

And all the chapters you listed for Igrene, she's nothing more than a filler unit, she never really meaningfully contributes. She'll kill a flier here and there, but lategame she's overshadowed by more useful units like Yodel (and even like, Karel) since she won't have a holy weapons (it's very hard for her to get the rank, even if you're not using Shin). I'm actually of the opinion that Klein is better than Igrene anyway, but it's a very small, oftentimes meaningless gap that really only applies if Klein gets fielded in endgame (since he definately has the ability to ORKO manaketes like Shin).

As for Shin, the things he has going for him are better offence (especially in Ilia) and better against the like 20 manaketes in the game (most of which are in the final chapter) vs being able to counter and being around for the entire game. I agree Alance are generally overrated units, but in a playthrough with growths, the only thing separating Percival from Alan is his sword rank (and I guess Axe rank but that's pretty pointless).

Maybe I need to replay FE6HM, I've had a lot of differeing opinions lately on the game and perhaps I am wrong about some stuff.

Edited March 12, 2015 by General Horace

[Varidan]

Maybe, instead of Outdoors Indoor Fighter, Knights should get a skill that gives them +2 Def for each time they take a physical hit, with some cap on the possible gains. If they move, however, then they lose the gains.

Indoor Fighter struck me as an odd skill to tack onto knights, since they dont seem like a "dodgey" class. Not to mention its useless in over half the in-game maps. I feel they need a skill that could be called something like "Weapon Master", in which they receive half the normal penalty from Weapon Triangle. Or bring back famous Nihil skill.....

Shinon only gets better once he gets 3-range and Deadeye. Hell even Rolf Leonardo can turn out amazing if you bother training him.

Fixed. I tried out Leo once, and he was just shy of his Str cap, but his support affinity made that not matter quite as much.

Edit: Also, on topic, Archers/Snipers make more sense to give Galeforce to, to keep them rolling better.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Varidan

[-Cynthia-]

I wouldn't call the 18th best unit in the game "among the best units in the game".

And all the chapters you listed for Igrene, she's nothing more than a filler unit, she never really meaningfully contributes. She'll kill a flier here and there, but lategame she's overshadowed by more useful units like Yodel (and even like, Karel) since she won't have a holy weapons (it's very hard for her to get the rank, even if you're not using Shin). I'm actually of the opinion that Klein is better than Igrene anyway, but it's a very small, oftentimes meaningless gap that really only applies if Klein gets fielded in endgame (since he definately has the ability to ORKO manaketes like Shin).

As for Shin, the things he has going for him are better offence (especially in Ilia) and better against the like 20 manaketes in the game (most of which are in the final chapter) vs being able to counter and being around for the entire game. I agree Alance are generally overrated units, but in a playthrough with growths, the only thing separating Percival from Alan is his sword rank (and I guess Axe rank but that's pretty pointless).

Maybe I need to replay FE6HM, I've had a lot of differeing opinions lately on the game and perhaps I am wrong about some stuff.

On an efficient playthrough, Alan isn't going to get enough levels to catch up to Percival (particularly if we early promote him to make him more useful in the Isles chapters). He needs to be effectively 20/4 to reach Percival's avg base Str, 20/8 to match his base Spd, 20/8-9 to match his base Def, loses by 6 in Res at 20/20 to base Percival. Alan will still do ok against unpromoted enemies and stuff, but isn't going to be nearly as good at boss killing/killing promoted units.

Klein is probably better than Igrene because of Murgleis. Back on topic though- would Klein/Igrene be much better if they were locked to axes/swords/lances with the same stats? I don't think it would improve them much, they'd lose nomad countering/sniping wyverns/shooting over walls to be promoted units with mediocre stats and average movement.

Edited March 12, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[Snowy_One]

I'm curious. Why are you debating FE6 rankings in a FEif topic?

[Irysa]

It's something of an argument about if Bows need to be buffed and the argument that Bow Users are actually quite good in some games so the problem is the game design rather than the nature of Bows.

I wouldn't call the 18th best unit in the game "among the best units in the game".

Better, not best. The quote is "some of the better units in the game" and I contest that they are in fact, some of the better units. In a game with a roster this big with generous deployment slots, and adding on the fact that quite a few of the units listed really can't be used together due to the scarcity of promotion items, I do believe that effectively free (don't need to train or promote), durable, strong, and helpful units who can ORKO unpromoted enemies easily, have a safe chance to kill promoted enemies easily, and have niche utility in various maps as well as being helpful against some of the tougher opponents in the game do qualify for being good units.

And all the chapters you listed for Igrene, she's nothing more than a filler unit, she never really meaningfully contributes.

The point is she actually can though. For example, she can kill the Bolting Mage in 16 on the right, or she could be used to fight enemies through wall on the left. Shin can't be in both places at once and a bow user is ideal to preform those functions, so either Sue (who needs to be trained more heavily), Igrene or Klein (who don't) are going to fill in. They could also be carried by Miledy to the top left of the map to bravebow the wall

Chapter 17S has Nomads, a Ballista, and a few Wyverns. The Ballista are kinda irrelevant, but those Wyverns are IIRC are packing like 43hp, 16def, so even Percival and Miledy are going to have problems ORKOing them without Killer Lance crits or Wyrmslayer use (which is frankly better saved for Manaketes). I'm also pretty sure a bunch of them are using Javelins so you can't even get good Enemy Phases and Percival's skill is not really all that great. Bow Users on the edge of their range is a great way to deal with them. and they can help with mopping up stuff that Miledy and Percival missed kills on (if using Killer Lances) or just missed period (if using Javelins). 17I is kind of a wash and she'll probably just chip a Paladin at the start before spending time in the Arena whilst you fly over the gap to seize, so I'll give you that.

18S, Nomads all over the place and again strong Wyverns, and high avo high speed swordies that you're probably not doubling, so I hope you've got some chippers lined up. 18I, Mercs in forests that you're probably not doubling, hope you've got some chippers lined up. There's actually a useful Ballista on this map near the start as well. A bow user can also deal with the initial Wyvern swarm from the right of the map very well.

19S, Nomads on open plains in 3 directions, and even more Nomads and capped speed swordies in the city (some rocking Killer Edges), and pretty dangerous Swordmasters. There's also plenty of ways to create good chokes on this map once you're inside the city. They can also Brave Bow a wall to get into the city, and the Brave Bow can in fact be passed around to make this more easily doable so having more than Shin is a boon. 19I kind of a wash since Niime is pretty awesome vs those Pegs and you only really need one Bow User to blick the odd Falco and the boss.

20Sx - Whoo nomads everywhere AND to make it even better there's Water all over the place to make it easy to just set up some Bow Users on the shore to fight Nomads on EP. Plus the map spreads you out again. 20Ix Brave Bowing Walls (again, gets better with more units to break them in 1 turn) or killing enemies through walls. Both are a wash if you warpskip them though.

21, you can use units to lure the rightmost clumps of Wyverns towards your starting position to alleviate pressure from the group heading towards the throne, and the Snipers are still really good at dealing with them (especially the Wyvern Lords, fuck those guys)

22, Longbow vs the super high mag Druids, or Bowing enemies through the walls on the right side of the map, or chipping the Brave Weapon Heroes who are guarding the switches.

23, Wyverns all over the place, I've said enough on that front.

You can live without them but they're definitely not pure filler units.

As for Shin, the things he has going for him are better offence (especially in Ilia) and better against the like 20 manaketes in the game (most of which are in the final chapter) vs being able to counter and being around for the entire game. I agree Alance are generally overrated units, but in a playthrough with growths, the only thing separating Percival from Alan is his sword rank (and I guess Axe rank but that's pretty pointless).

Being around the whole game is not doing Roy any favors in being considered a good unit. We have to ask what they're DOING in the game, not just being around. Someone like Lowen or Franz is actually actively helpful on early maps, wheras Alance are more like the least bad units you have at your disposal after Marcus and Dieck, and the gap is pretty significant. They only realistically start catching up/surpassing them by the time the game's already gotten way easier, and they preform mediocrely vs bosses and promoted enemies. They just don't actually DO all that much in the grand scheme of the game if we start assuming particular units are autodeploys. As I said before, in a vaccum, they're good, but in the team, they're merely decent and don't shine in any respects.

[General Horace]

My point is, yes they're good against wyverns. Is killing one wyvern lord per turn really better than putting a bunch of other wyvern riders in KO range for the rest of your team?

as for the actual chapters you outlined, there are no mercs and no relevant forests in 18S, (there are myrmidons though) and a bunch of unpromoted nomads, which I guess they're good against (although they won't double)

The extent of their use is sniping a wyvern lord in 18S. I guess they break walls faster, but warping useful units over the wall is just so much easier, even if you're not playing fast.

god I thought sacae actually had promoted enemies, even in 20x they're reletively sparse, I guess they're better than I remember here.

They need the brave bow to kill wyvern lords (which is fine, unless Shin has it) in the last few chapters, but yes, they're tanky, but a hit + crit with any unit with good strength (Miledy, Percival, Alan, Gonzales, etc) kills them and even someone pretty bad like Hugh hits them very hard with Aircalibur, even if he doesn't double. Bows aren't the only way to kill them.

WRT to Alan vs Percival, it's very reasonable to assume he's around 20/4 by the time Percival is recruited, unless we're LTC'ing or something there's no inscentive to promote him in the isles, he doesn't need the promotion bonuses anyway since he still doubles the all the non Merc enemies. Percival's not a particularly good bosskiller anyway, but Alan really isn't any worse. a point or so in each offensive stat isn't going to make or break it. I'd argue the only reason Percival's actually better is the opportunity cost at training Alan, and his sword rank. I mean, you could get Alan to Durandal if you really wanted to, it just takes a lot more effort.

But overall after looking at the Sacae maps, I did underestimate the worth of snipers, but past then they pretty much only exist to snipe a wyvern lord a chapter or something. Klein can kill Manaketes I guess. Real men use Bartre to snipe wyverns anyway

But Cynthia raises a good point, I think the only way Igrene or Klein would be better with the same stats is if they were a mounted unit or maybe a Sage.

Edited March 12, 2015 by General Horace

[Irysa]

as for the actual chapters you outlined, there are no mercs and no relevant forests in 18S, (there are myrmidons though) and a bunch of unpromoted nomads, which I guess they're good against (although they won't double)

No that was 18I. Read what I said.

18S, Nomads all over the place and again strong Wyverns, and high avo high speed swordies that you're probably not doubling, so I hope you've got some chippers lined up. 18I, Mercs in forests that you're probably not doubling, hope you've got some chippers lined up. There's actually a useful Ballista on this map near the start as well. A bow user can also deal with the initial Wyvern swarm from the right of the map very well.

My point is, yes they're good against wyverns. Is killing one wyvern lord per turn really better than putting a bunch of other wyvern riders in KO range for the rest of your team?

They can kill more than one Wyvern per turn if you position them correctly to engage Javelin Wyverns at range on enemy phase. Additionally, I'm not arguing that Klein and Igrene are better than units who are actually going to be countering Wyverns (Percival, Miledy, Alan, Lance, etc), I'm just arguing that they are actually pretty helpful for clearing up Wyverns that your units didnt hit, didn't crit, or just flat out missed because they're reliable Wyvern killers/weakeners compared to everyone else. They add a lot of reliability to killing those enemies.

The extent of their use is sniping a wyvern lord in 18S. I guess they break walls faster, but warping useful units over the wall is just so much easier, even if you're not playing fast.

Think you mean 19S, and they are still reasonably useful for fighting nomads at the start of the map since it's likely you're running your 8 mov units towards the walls. Warping over the wall is a good idea but is "somewhat" dangerous considering the high enemy density and the fact the swordmasters are strong.

They need the brave bow to kill wyvern lords (which is fine, unless Shin has it) in the last few chapters, but yes, they're tanky, but a hit + crit with any unit with good strength (Miledy, Percival, Alan, Gonzales, etc) kills them and even someone pretty bad like Hugh hits them very hard with Aircalibur, even if he doesn't double. Bows aren't the only way to kill them.

Again, I didn't claim as such. I simply claimed they are among the most reliable ways to do so for units that cost nothing and don't need any training to do so. It also isn't unrealistic for them to be able to double the unpromoted Wyverns. Comparatively, Lugh needs a Guiding ring and has to be trained, Hugh costs a buttload for his good stats AND needs a guiding ring, and Cecilia is pretty fragile and has to be used with even more care than Klein and Igrene do.

WRT to Alan vs Percival, it's very reasonable to assume he's around 20/4 by the time Percival is recruited, unless we're LTC'ing or something there's no inscentive to promote him in the isles, he doesn't need the promotion bonuses anyway since he still doubles the all the non Merc enemies. Percival's not a particularly good bosskiller anyway, but Alan really isn't any worse. a point or so in each offensive stat isn't going to make or break it. I'd argue the only reason Percival's actually better is the opportunity cost at training Alan, and his sword rank. I mean, you could get Alan to Durandal if you really wanted to, it just takes a lot more effort.

Alan being 20/4 by the time Percival shows up is a waste and shows a bit of favouritism. It takes rather long for Alan to get to level 20 even when unpromoted unless you go quite slow, so there is not much real harm in promoting him for Chapter 12 as it increases his overall usefulness, and will give him Killing Edge access which is a pretty big deal. The thing about bosskilling in FE6 is that unless we assume rigging, a lot of enemies after the midgame are just generally too strong or evasive to actually be killed cleanly so the single role of "bosskilling" is kinda vague. Bosskilling itself is something more that you're going to probably throw Shin/Snipers to try to accurately chip, then Percival or Miledy, then your next best unit at a boss in succession unless the guy is dead. I agree that a Cavalier can replicate Percival with the exception of Sword Rank if trained, but I do disagree that Alan is likely to reach 20/4 by chapter 15. Something like 15/5 is more reasonable unless you milk 14x or something since that's actually quite EXP lucrative, but Miledy gives better returns on the whole usually anyway.

But overall after looking at the Sacae maps, I did underestimate the worth of snipers, but past then they pretty much only exist to snipe a wyvern lord a chapter or something. Klein can kill Manaketes I guess. Real men use Bartre to snipe wyverns anyway

Come on dude, Chapter 22 is definitely friendly towards Snipers. The Brave Weapon Heroes are total jerks and the walls are ideal on the right for engaging with the Light Brand Hero on your own terms. Not to mention Longbow access vs the Druids who have absurd Mag so taking a hit is really gross. Some of the enemies have 22 AS for goodness sake, Chip damage is really helpful.

But Cynthia raises a good point, I think the only way Igrene or Klein would be better with the same stats is if they were a mounted unit or maybe a Sage.

I agree. It is exactly because they have Bow access that they become actually useful units, even if their uses aren't amazing or anything. I think that highlights that the notion of a Sniper is not really fundamentally borked or anything, nor do you need crazy stats, you just have to have ways to contribute, which FE6 allows them to do.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

My bad, I blame having a LONG DAY. I guess is just missed the 18I.

I still don't think Snipers (or Paladins) are particularly good on that map (that's the super stupid one with like the map entirely covered in forests right?, too lazy to check).

What really constitutes efficient play in FE6 though? I just finished playing Chapter 6 (Sue's chapter) and there are like, a billion chests and you only have one chad and no chest keys, do you assume you get all the chests? Or do you choose the best few and romp onwards?

But to stay somewhat relevant to the topic, Snipers can be good units in the right environment, and i've stated (not sure if it's in this thread but) most snipers are honestly pretty solid at the very worst, Innes and Louise aren't in games where Snipers are particularly good, but they're both not bad units, and the FE6 snipers are pretty good. I think the only real bad sniper in the series is like, FE9 Shinon, and he has a few chapters where he's useful too. Archers are a problem though.

[Irysa]

What really constitutes efficient play in FE6 though? I just finished playing Chapter 6 (Sue's chapter) and there are like, a billion chests and you only have one chad and no chest keys, do you assume you get all the chests? Or do you choose the best few and romp onwards?

I personally prefer to put the limit on FE6 "efficient" play as a speed that avoids having to engage with the HM reinforcements, as they only tend to spawn in FE6 as a "hurry up" message. This is quite generous but not crazy loose, Chapter 7 needs to be beaten in about 10 turns for example. Chapter 6 would be an 8 turn which lets Chad get every chest on the right side of the map easily. The unlock staff is useless and the chests on the left only contain money.

I still don't think Snipers (or Paladins) are particularly good on that map (that's the super stupid one with like the map entirely covered in forests right?, too lazy to check).

I think being able to chip the mercs in the way is pretty helpful and the ballista at the start of the map can be used to blick stuff since it's feasably reachable in 2 or 3 turns. It's worth deploying a sniper there just to make use of that IMO.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Irysa

[NinjaMonkey]

Use stronger tomes. You'd be surprised how far even just 20 magic can get you. I had Sumia entering endgame with like 25 magic. Didn't stop her from raping face all the way until that point.

If he didn't start with an E in tomes, I would be able to.

[Ownagepuffs]

Forge +5 Mt to Thunder to get you started. This is off topic, though.

[Magical Glace]

Indoor Fighter struck me as an odd skill to tack onto knights, since they dont seem like a "dodgey" class. Not to mention its useless in over half the in-game maps. I feel they need a skill that could be called something like "Weapon Master", in which they receive half the normal penalty from Weapon Triangle. Or bring back famous Nihil skill.....

Fixed. I tried out Leo once, and he was just shy of his Str cap, but his support affinity made that not matter quite as much.

Edit: Also, on topic, Archers/Snipers make more sense to give Galeforce to, to keep them rolling better.

Lol Leonardo. Dude can't double for the life of him and his Res cap sucks hindering his sweet Res growth. And you got really lucky with his Str in that case, iirc that growth also sucks.

Meanwhile Rolf has a sweet 70% Str growth And he's in a team with easier enemies.

...Rolf wins.

Really FE10 Rolf isn't bad, Shinon's just overshadows him.

[FrostyFireMage]

Leonardo gets the Lughnasadh

[Magical Glace]

Leonardo gets the Lughnasadh

In part 3. He isn't going o double much of anything in Part 1, and like I said, his Str is bad

And after Part 1 he gets so little time...

Of the three he's the worst.

[Dragrath]

I see the infamous archer issue continues well They should get a buff I'd say a much higher strength stat. After all bows are some of the weapons that need high strength to use in the real world. (long bow users in fact need years of training their arms to be able to use longbows)

Give archers strength comparable to Berserkers/Generals and then they suddenly aren't the worst bow class. I also wouldn't mind seeing the marksman range buff.

In general for specialist classes they shoudl all have a unique weapon subtype exclusive to their lines (and Halbrediers need to return! if an awakening system promotion system is kept, which I assume as it uses the same engine as FE 13, soldiers should promote into Halbrediers or Generals...

-Archers/Snipers-better selection of longbows like FE 10 perhaps even some bows with 4 range.

-Myrmidons/Swordmasters should get a larger set of exclusive eastern blades (Wa dao, katti's ect) that would have more crit/hit than their standard sword counterparts

-Soldiers/Halberdiers could get halberds as a spear subtype ( I know they are classified as axes IRL but games don't need to follow reality) they could be given higher MT and potentially crit than standard lances

-Barbarians/Pirtates/Beserkers could get something... my thoughts from a search on axes gives the Hurlbat a cruel throwing axe with sharpened on every edge to maximize the odds of damaging the foe... feels reckless and cruel enough right?

-Dark Mages/Sorcerers would keep dark magic as a sub class (but in exchange light magic returns as a regular tome group along w/ the anima sub types) (would need rebalencing though)

this way every specialized class would have a group of unique weapons to compensate for the lack of arms diversity

Wyvern could use a speed boost and should no longer promote to Gryphons. My thoughts are a slightly faster wyrvern class w/ axes and lances and a second tankier armored Wyvern class (perhaps w/ full weapon triangle like the Great knight)

If Gryphons do return I agree with the sentiment in the Grypon thread that they should be sword users. I'd have them keep their mobility advantage perhaps giving them a base move of 9 when promoted.

[weso12]

Taguel could act like FE12 Manaketes in that they different stones with different abilities

Soldiers need to playable and Halberdiers need to exist

Swordmasters, Berserkers, Snipers and Halberdier all need crit bonuses

Snipers could get +1 range to all bows (Including Longbows)

War Monks/War Medic could get a mount to make them worthwhile

This is getting beyond simple class rebalancing I'd kind of like a seperate of magic to the Anima-Light-Dark Magic triangle, and make it so that Dark Mages have only dark magic and sorcerers have dark magic and staves, dark knights have dark magic, anima magic and swords, mages have anima magic, sages have anima, light, and staves, monks to return (with a sisters as a female equilivant, promotes to sage and bishop) using light magic, and bishops (which can priest/clerics promote instead of Sage) also returning and having light magic and staves, and obvious war cleric/war monk mount, with troubadours and valkyries being the same.

[Shadow Mir]

Taguel could act like FE12 Manaketes in that they different stones with different abilities

Snipers could get +1 range to all bows (Including Longbows)

War Monks/War Medic could get a mount to make them worthwhile

Which is assuming Taguels return, which is a big if, if you ask me.

IMO, that wouldn't help as much as actually having situations where snipers would be useful.

Ehhh, I personally thought that their generally being more durable than other healer associated classes was a good reason to have one.