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Lunatic 0% Growths Theory Room


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Over the years I considered doing 0% Lunatic just to see what it would take to do it. Of course one of the major issues was that no real patch for it existed and the lack of depth / exploration of FE12.

Now that a patch exists and many have played Lunatic mode I thought about theorizing (and perhaps doing) a 0% runthrough of Lunatic mode of Fire Emblem - New Mystery of the Emblem. Now granted I am not saying this can nor cannot be done; however, I would like to promote some discussion on being able to do this playthrough. Hopefully this won't rustle anyone's bushes by discussing this so let's begin with my theories.

MVP Units

So much like any 0% growths runthrough there are obviously units that really stand out above the rest. Most of these are usually seen in the higher tiers of efficiency tier list while others are kind of shadows hidden from plain sight. I decided to compile what units will likely be useful throughout the game:

- Avatar / MU will likely stand out at least throughout Prologue and perhaps throughout Chapters 1-8. I have a feeling the best one might be Fighter!MU due to later access to Hammers and being one of the stronger, if not the strongest, created units. Some may argue that Armor Knight may be superior. I could potentially see that since Armor Knight has some uses in the earlier and later parts of Prologue; however, I don't see it surviving very long afterwards. As for the Past, Present, and Future options I don't know what would be best - Future obviously would be screwed since "lolnogrowths".

- Ogma / Athena / Cain / Caeda will also likely stand out in Prologue for obvious reasons. Merric too to an extent with Ryan touching up on things.

- Gordon will have some earlygame utility thanks to having bow access and okay bases to make it work. He probably won't see much use outside of Chapter 4 but "you never know".

- Alan is probably the first big unit to stand out. Having early access to unlocked promotions is great for him and Rainbow Potion meshes well with his base stats. I feel Alan will have a use up until about Chapter 8 - Chapter 10 probably at the latest (unless finding treasure in 11 or something).

- Mallesia because "lolHammerne".

- Catria has some potential for use but I doubt she will end up being anything in the long term. Her lower Str start as well as C Lances are decent and can help support throughout the game, but I don't know if she would realistically last very long without growths.

- Palla, on the other hand, has grounds to being one of the better units, if not the best, in an environment like this. She starts out like she took steroids and her base Speed actually is adequate for someone that joins as early as her. B Lances and 6 base Str is huge for someone like her and I actually wonder how far the Palla Pain Train will realistically last.

- Bord likely has minor utility with C Axes.

- Julian for best Thief I guess?

- Sirius is one I'm actually curious as to how long he'll last. His bases are pretty good - pretty comparable to Palla. Though his base Speed is still pretty meh (6) and sometimes I wish he had A Swords if only for +1 Atk. Still, promoted with A Lances / B Swords is pretty damn strong and he could work around with Swordmaster if needed.

- Further into Caeda I see she could potentially do well for a while, but I actually wonder if OP Wing Spear can actually carry her throughout Chapters 15-20. Her bases don't stand out very well but her PRF weapon is really damn strong.

- Wendell at least can provide 2 range support while offering D Staves at base. Useful at least - especially until Etzel arrives.

- I kind of wonder about Navarre. His bases actually aren't bad for someone like him but I feel eventually he would tucker out.

- Feena because "loldance".

- Minerva should be really good throughout the midgame stretch at worst and can use her A Axes when Paladins and Generals arrive. One thing that's nice is she can OHKO Dark Mages with a little help. Having C Lances this time around helps a lot too.

- Etzel is really damn good. He should hit like a truck from 2 range and has a lot of utility within staves and the like. Berserker is his true calling though. Let's be serious. </sarcasm>.

- Darros is pretty impressive actually. Aside from 6 base Speed his other bases are really damn good (17 HP | 7 Def? Damn.)

- Belf / Leiden have really good stats for being non-promoted units that join late and actually could last for a while. Leiden has Speed comparable to Palla - a nice trait.

- Xane copying should be pretty useful in some circumstances I would assume.

- IIRC Katarina requires the least amount of work for taking out Gharnef. I'm not personally sure on this one but someone could fill in on that.

- Midia could have some use. Her bases are so-so but at least she's got B Lances.

- Michalis / Nagi could potentially duo through the last of the chapters. Michalis might need a little Luck on his side though.

What it would take to OHKO certain units

This is one I thought a lot about. One thing that really helped dondon and many others trivialize FE11 was the use of forged weapons to OHKO units. Wing Spear in particular was a real MVP.

Unfortunately Caeda has really low Str this game (2) in comparison to how durable the enemies are. I decided to look at the strongest Paladins in the game first (52 HP | 14 Def). Using DracoKnight as an example with C Lances (she should have this at bar minimum at this point in the game) you would have to do 66 damage. In order to OHKO the Paladin Caeda would need a max Mt forge with the Rainbow Potion or Energy Drop or Strength Bond or Star Sphere.

So the price of the forge?

So 50% initial cost of 1120 is 560. +10 might is 2750% of the item's value. We're looking at a 31,360 Gold forge here.

Could it go lower?

If you account Starsphere and Rainbow Potion Caeda would have about 14 base Str with an extra Atk from C Lances. You would still need a full Mt forge unless you give her an Energy Drop which would cut it down to 17. -_-;

What about Dragons?

Probably even worse. You need to do 77 damage to OHKO these guys. Michalis has 19 base Str with B Lances for +1 Attack. Even with the Rainbow Potion you are asking for an impossible +11 weapon forge. You would need an Energy Drop, Rainbow Potion, and a full Mt forge to OHKO.

And that price is even worse - 37,800.

One final note is defeating Medeus. One thing I theorized was the Silver Axe forge to maximum Mt. A Berserker Michalis would do 12 damage to a 99 HP | 42 Def Medeus. That forge is 44,800.

Defeating Medeus and Gharnef

Probably the one thing that makes the potential playthrough borderline impossible is KOing these two units. Both are no slouches in durability and obviously their offense are stupid good.

For Gharnef Katarina is probably the best one here. I think at base BIshop Katarina can survive two blows with Rainbow Potion and Pure Water. But doing 5 damage initially on Gharnef really sucks. -_-;

Medeus is another tricky monster. It's possible for Marth to survive one attack against Medeus but it requires so much that one wonders if it's even worth bothering. So...

*takes deep breath*.

Marth has 10 base Speed. 6 Speedwings gives +12 Speed, so Marth would end with 22 Speed (+2 with Emblem). That leaves 24 Speed. Medeus of course has 30. Even after a Rainbow Potion - 26. You can escape it with a Speed Bond and Rainbow Potion I believe, but even so that just shows how demanding of resources Marth really is.

Next for durability. We're looking at 60 Attack versus... 26 HP | 8+2 Def. So we're about halfway there. 4 Seraph Robes or a combination of 3 Seraph Robes, Rainbow Potion, and Def Bond can clear this one. This one is a bit easier.

Finally denting Medeus. 8+2 Str versus 99 HP | 42 Def sucks but at least 12 base Mt is really strong. You at least do 4 damage minimum! D: 6 with Rainbow Potion!

So again this is mainly to help spark discussion. How far a person could potentially get, and hell if I should even look into playing it or not. I know PK Salt is currently doing Maniac and I wish him luck on it.

Discuss.

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I think if you allow death decoys you can get up to Chapter 15 (your turncounts for 12 and 14 are going to be abysmal though). Chapter 15 unfortunately has far too many Paladins and Horsemen who will begin to bumrush immediately, and there is basically no way to deal with them all on 0% growths short of maybe something insane like Sage!Minerva @ Nosferatu (with a bajillion boosters), and she's still going to have to crit a bunch of them.

Without deaths, I don't think Chapter 12 is doable on 0%...

Edited by Irysa
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I think the only real way to beat medeus is throwing Katarina at him with a huge thoron forge and spirit dusts to knock off a solid chunk of damage (with all the spirit dusts and a +10 forge she does 75/99 damage) then find the other damage elsewhere

She can blow up Gharnef pretty easily too, 0 luck too strong. The obvious issue is still money like dondon said.

EDIT: Also I honestly thing generic enemies are way more of an issue than the bosses.

Edited by General Horace
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Way back in FE11, it was possible to get to 24x by killing Tiki while she held Falchion - in-game, it put Falchion in some kind of limbo state before it reappeared in your convoy. If items instantly warped back to inventory as soon as someone died, it would allow for things like having someone go to the front lines, use Rescue, die, and then have Rescue reappear in convoy so that someone else can fish it out and use it. In FE12, chapter 19 and its ballista come to mind.

Edited by eclipse
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IIRC, an instant convoy-drop upon death doesn't happen, correct me if it does.

Anyway, I can see Excalibur!Etzel and Parthia!Jeorge being able to OHKO Fire Dragons on EP with crits or something, while SM!Palla can ORKO Dragons and Sirius + some scrub can gang up on them. SM!Minerva can do it with a +2 Wyrmslayer forge or something. maybe some flier can distract the turn 4 wyrms towards the RHS of the map to make them (temporarily) irrelevant to the main group. I'm pretty sure it requires crits to clear the map in 0% growths, but I think it's physically possible with map save abuse. the 2nd enemy wave is kind of worrisome though.

Edited by Gradivus.
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Speaking of Parthia I forgot all about Jeorge. At least he can be Parthia bot.

I think if you allow death decoys you can get up to Chapter 15 (your turncounts for 12 and 14 are going to be abysmal though). Chapter 15 unfortunately has far too many Paladins and Horsemen who will begin to bumrush immediately, and there is basically no way to deal with them all on 0% growths short of maybe something insane like Sage!Minerva @ Nosferatu (with a bajillion boosters), and she's still going to have to crit a bunch of them.

Without deaths, I don't think Chapter 12 is doable on 0%...

I have to remember how the enemies spawn in Chapter 12. I know they usually spawn on the forts right? On the RHS and the LHS if I'm not mistaken. I don't think anyone spawns behind you though. Could be wrong.

I think the only real way to beat medeus is throwing Katarina at him with a huge thoron forge and spirit dusts to knock off a solid chunk of damage (with all the spirit dusts and a +10 forge she does 75/99 damage) then find the other damage elsewhere

She can blow up Gharnef pretty easily too, 0 luck too strong. The obvious issue is still money like dondon said.

EDIT: Also I honestly thing generic enemies are way more of an issue than the bosses.

Yeah for sure. The problem is the generic enemies in this game are seriously ripped. I'm not terribly worried about the bosses - usually they take care of themselves (the only exceptions being Gharnef and Medeus. And maaaaybe Hardin).

I didn't think about Katarina being used to blow up Medeus though. I guess he does have a slightly lower Res than Def but still - rough to really take him down. May look at that particular strategy too.

also, doesn't FE12 have a casual mode? maybe that can be a thing.

It does. I actually wondered if I should do casual mode to "ease" into the game, but I think there is a penalty still if the unit dies (I believe gold is deducted to revive them).

It would allow suicide strategies to work, though I'm not sure whether or not units who "die" keep their inventory (gut says they do).

Like Gradivus said your items go into your Storage but you cannot access them again until after the battle.

I think another thing to note is if I were to do this I would obviously allow Rainbow Potion since, you know, brutality of this mode and shit.

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once you're on or above the 3 middle forts (only grounded tiles count), the lower reinforcements (2 bandits 1 dragon iirc) spawn and 2 turns afterwards the upper reinforcements (1 fire dragon 2 wyrms) spawn. On H3/4 they also spawn automatically on turn 2 and 4 respectively.

as for C15 cavalry: SM!RP!Palla (24 Spd, heh) can probably use Master Sword by that point and critblick the Ridersbane!Pally on EP (she can also devil or maybe silver sword kill horsemen next PP). Sirius can somehow tradechain the master sword to him and crit a horseman. Poleax!Minerva can gang up with Ridersbane!Dolph for a Paladin kill. Xane can be Palla and get another Horseman kill. Sage!Etzel + Jeorge + Wendell can gang up for another Paladin. Feena dances Palla who gives the Armorslayer!Paladin a strong devil sword chip (or flatout ORKOes with an MS crit if necessary). I can see limited uses of Parthia and MS being a problem though.

C16 is doable by abusing both map saves (Paladin!Jeorge can reach Astram without the Heroes being aggroed by moving around the top of the map), some scrub killer weapon's the geosphere guy, and the throne room is a crit zergrush skip. Etzel + forged Hammer!MU can gang up for the General.

C16x is a pain in the ass.

C17 probably is doable if you don't take any counters. you'll probably take counters unless the map is somehow 2-turned (lol).

C18 is nostankable with quad speedwing!Katarina. Those Paladins can either somehow be nuked or we do dance Marth, visit, Rescue Marth, Rescue Feena on turn 1 to stay away from the Paladins.

Edited by Gradivus.
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The map you guys have to worry about is Chapter 19 0% growths full recruitment. That has been proving difficult to beat in theory. Everything else is possible because Katarina and Palla are OP and carry the team real hard xD. Of course, I'm talking about H2, where Warp exists..

Edited by PJSalt
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Marth has 10 base Speed. 6 Speedwings gives +12 Speed, so Marth would end with 22 Speed (+2 with Emblem). That leaves 24 Speed. Medeus of course has 30. Even after a Rainbow Potion - 26. You can escape it with a Speed Bond and Rainbow Potion I believe, but even so that just shows how demanding of resources Marth really is.

Are you sure that Bonds stack with the RP? I'd test this myself if I still had the game. Not that this is the biggest obstacle to a 0% H3 run, of course...

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What kind of MU build do you think would work best for this?

Like normal lunatic I think Knight!MU or Fighter!MU will contribute the most in prolouge and then he will be switching into cav/myrm/pirate and post promo pali/sm/draco/zerker

Also Colonel M its Windell not Wendell of course

you also forgot wrys the real MVP

Edited by TTPK_Tal
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true, darros is better for random poleax / forged hammer usage lol.

Darros is surprisingly decent in FE12, I was pretty surprised when I got him in my first run and had ok stats.

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