Unit Optimization Thread

[Dämonplay]

Would a General with all the Breaker skills be good?

well..........that

not at all maybe certain ones like tomebreaker and maybe swordbreaker would be very useful. Together with defensive formation and armour shield. And then maybe Sol for recovery. I'm not a fan if generals. I never was but they got a juge buff in fates. A HUGE buff.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Dämonplay

[astrophys]

I want to have my Avatar marry Matoi (assuming there's nothing hugely objectionable about her characterization when the support stuff comes out, seeing that I really liked Cordelia in Awakening and thus Cordelia 2.0 appeals to me).

Of course, Matoi is only an option on the Hoshidan and 3rd Routes.

I have a preference for red haired Matoi, which would imply Hinoka!Matoi on Hoshido and Hinoka or Luna!Matois for third route, assuming the claims about the 3rd route are actually true. I mean, strictly speaking, it doesn't HAVE to be that way, but I'd kind of like that.

I also kind of like being a more magically orientated character (partly thanks to its association with intellect, even as stated in the game's Japanese descriptions of the assets/flaws, as I understand) and my own real-life intellectual bent. Of course, Matoi is more a physical unit, growth wise, but perhaps there are still good classes that she could pick up skills from from some of the other classes in Second Sealing….

I'm wondering if something like taking Dark Mage would be a good idea for the Avatar… that way, not only do I get the magic user I like, but I also get to pass on a hybrid class (Dark Knight) to Matoi for her use while picking up skills (she could use a sword and her strength stat and not be totally crippled by poor magic growths in the meantime)… she could then grab things like Lifetaker (Matoi inherently leans defensive thanks to her father's +3 Defense mod, so the ability to further boost her survivability by letting her regenerate large chunks of HP from kills might be of use here. Although it does seem that kiling enemies in one round might not be as common as before, so maybe its not as worth it… not sure yet….

Magic Seal could be also useful, both to the Avatar and/or Matoi, as I'm pretty sure that you don't really get anything in the way of Dark Mages on the Hoshido route, which means this seal is unavailable otherwise…. that and Draconic Curse from the Dark Blood would be Nohr/3rd route only, presumably. So taking this would let me cover one of the missing seal skills.

By the way, if you equip multiple seals on a character, do they all trigger, or does only one of them do so? For instance, Hinoka!Matoi would get access to Defense and Speed Seals from the Holy Lancer, and could pick up a marriage-sealed Magic Seal. And she also has natural access regardless of parentage to Strength Seal through weapons Master.

If I were to take any random combination of these seals in tandem (as probably I might want to use some skills for other purposes) would they ALL trigger, or just one. Basically, could such a Matoi proc up to 4 such different Seals simultaneously if I wanted her to?

But of course, if I took Spellcaster or Priest, I could get Tomefaire instead for my Avatar. So that would be a tradeoff.

Just thinking about these things.

Luna!Matoi wouldn't get all the seals, but she'd get to play around with Breakers…. Mercenary gives Kunaibreaker and Axebreaker form promotions. And Sorcerer on Avatar would enable access to Bowbreaker, which also covers Matoi's flier weakness as a Pegasus (and Axebreaker covers up her weapon triangle disadvantage to an extent). She wouldn't have Lancefaire, but she could possibly run quite a defensive set…. Since she always has Samurai and Pegasus, and thus Flowing Strike, Swallow Strike, and Mirror Strike, she could run some combination of these strikes and breakers as an altnerate build…. and thanks to Luna's +1 defense mod, Subaki's +3 mod, and the +1 child bonus, she'd have a +5 defense bonus regardless of class.

Of course, she wouldn't' need to be in Pegasus…. she could do a Swordfaire Hero or something, although she'd have -1 strength mods if Luna was her mother. Or she could pull Dark Knight by marriage seal if I went with a Dark mage secondary on my Avatar…. oh, and that would let her emulate Cordelia's class set (and more) with Pegasus, Mercenary, and Dark Mage (marriage seal) alongside Subaki's Samuari class that she gained.

What are people's thoughts on these various Matoi builds?

[The Radiant Hero]

well..........that

not at all maybe certain ones like tomebreaker and maybe swordbreaker would be very useful. Together with defensive formation and armour shield. And then maybe Sol for recovery. I'm not a fan if generals. I never was but they got a juge buff in fates. A HUGE buff.

They can't be doubled, right ?

[astrophys]

Would a General with all the Breaker skills be good?

Seeing that there are SIX breaker skills, its flat out impossible to have all of them equipped at once….

Of course, perhaps you could achieve 5 with lots of skill buying, re-classing, marriage, buddying, breeding,etc….

[Bovinian]

Would a General with all the Breaker skills be good?

Equipping a unit with all the breaker skills is never a good idea. It doesn't make you "nearly unhittable" as you might think - rather, it just makes it annoying for your opponents to hit you but you'll still be getting hit at least half the time. If your opponents have any sort of hit boosting skills, then they might not have problems hitting you at all. Also you won't have any offensive skills.

Not to mention Generals in particular have no speed so their Avoid is terrible to begin with. Breakers won't save them.

[Dämonplay]

I want to have my Avatar marry Matoi (assuming there's nothing hugely objectionable about her characterization when the support stuff comes out, seeing that I really liked Cordelia in Awakening and thus Cordelia 2.0 appeals to me).

Of course, Matoi is only an option on the Hoshidan and 3rd Routes.

I have a preference for red haired Matoi, which would imply Hinoka!Matoi on Hoshido and Hinoka or Luna!Matois for third route, assuming the claims about the 3rd route are actually true. I mean, strictly speaking, it doesn't HAVE to be that way, but I'd kind of like that.

I also kind of like being a more magically orientated character (partly thanks to its association with intellect, even as stated in the game's Japanese descriptions of the assets/flaws, as I understand) and my own real-life intellectual bent. Of course, Matoi is more a physical unit, growth wise, but perhaps there are still good classes that she could pick up skills from from some of the other classes in Second Sealing.

I'm wondering if something like taking Dark Mage would be a good idea for the Avatar that way, not only do I get the magic user I like, but I also get to pass on a hybrid class (Dark Knight) to Matoi for her use while picking up skills (she could use a sword and her strength stat and not be totally crippled by poor magic growths in the meantime) she could then grab things like Lifetaker (Matoi inherently leans defensive thanks to her father's +3 Defense mod, so the ability to further boost her survivability by letting her regenerate large chunks of HP from kills might be of use here. Although it does seem that kiling enemies in one round might not be as common as before, so maybe its not as worth it not sure yet.

Magic Seal could be also useful, both to the Avatar and/or Matoi, as I'm pretty sure that you don't really get anything in the way of Dark Mages on the Hoshido route, which means this seal is unavailable otherwise. that and Draconic Curse from the Dark Blood would be Nohr/3rd route only, presumably. So taking this would let me cover one of the missing seal skills.

By the way, if you equip multiple seals on a character, do they all trigger, or does only one of them do so? For instance, Hinoka!Matoi would get access to Defense and Speed Seals from the Holy Lancer, and could pick up a marriage-sealed Magic Seal. And she also has natural access regardless of parentage to Strength Seal through weapons Master.

If I were to take any random combination of these seals in tandem (as probably I might want to use some skills for other purposes) would they ALL trigger, or just one. Basically, could such a Matoi proc up to 4 such different Seals simultaneously if I wanted her to?

But of course, if I took Spellcaster or Priest, I could get Tomefaire instead for my Avatar. So that would be a tradeoff.

Just thinking about these things.

Luna!Matoi wouldn't get all the seals, but she'd get to play around with Breakers. Mercenary gives Kunaibreaker and Axebreaker form promotions. And Sorcerer on Avatar would enable access to Bowbreaker, which also covers Matoi's flier weakness as a Pegasus (and Axebreaker covers up her weapon triangle disadvantage to an extent). She wouldn't have Lancefaire, but she could possibly run quite a defensive set. Since she always has Samurai and Pegasus, and thus Flowing Strike, Swallow Strike, and Mirror Strike, she could run some combination of these strikes and breakers as an altnerate build. and thanks to Luna's +1 defense mod, Subaki's +3 mod, and the +1 child bonus, she'd have a +5 defense bonus regardless of class.

Of course, she wouldn't' need to be in Pegasus. she could do a Swordfaire Hero or something, although she'd have -1 strength mods if Luna was her mother. Or she could pull Dark Knight by marriage seal if I went with a Dark mage secondary on my Avatar. oh, and that would let her emulate Cordelia's class set (and more) with Pegasus, Mercenary, and Dark Mage (marriage seal) alongside Subaki's Samuari class that she gained.

What are people's thoughts on these various Matoi builds?

Marriage chart:Red and white means they can't marry.(Note there is an error the two white spaces under Elfie should be under Elise)

http://i.imgur.com/zrRV3Kk.png

Marriage chart 3rd route

Edited July 2, 2015 by Dämonplay

[astrophys]

Of course, in my earlier post, I wasn't saying that it would be good, only what was possible.

Breakers can be useful on higher speed classes that already have a substantial avoid, particularly when compound with weapon triangle advantage.

They can also be useful if you are using them to shore up a hit-rate for a specific match-up, using them offensively rather than defensively. Of course, stuff like Raven Strike exists, but without skill buying shennagins, there will be a good number of units who don't get that…. and Nohr doesn't have that on Nohr native units (but they do get it through shared units). So Breakers might be a good alternative for Nohr to accomplish that.

EDIT: Your chart doesn't seem to display correctly. In any event, I've seen the chart, and am pretty sure that the pairing is possible. I was just speaking in the hypothetical in case a mistake was made, we were hoaxed and none of us had caught on yet, etc. Not likely, but just covering my bases there.

Edited July 2, 2015 by astrophys

[Dämonplay]

Equipping a unit with all the breaker skills is never a good idea. It doesn't make you "nearly unhittable" as you might think - rather, it just makes it annoying for your opponents to hit you but you'll still be getting hit at least half the time. If your opponents have any sort of hit boosting skills, then they might not have problems hitting you at all. Also you won't have any offensive skills.

Not to mention Generals in particular have no speed so their Avoid is terrible to begin with. Breakers won't save them.

One of my units has axebreaker cause it is build to counter generala and more important berserkers. And I think in that case axebreaker is good. Cause first brave heros are dast so they can avoid hits naturally. Second there's always the chance to not getting hit and if he doesn't he's dead next turn.

[Dämonplay]

Of course, in my earlier post, I wasn't saying that it would be good, only what was possible.

Breakers can be useful on higher speed classes that already have a substantial avoid, particularly when compound with weapon triangle advantage.

They can also be useful if you are using them to shore up a hit-rate for a specific match-up, using them offensively rather than defensively. Of course, stuff like Raven Strike exists, but without skill buying shennagins, there will be a good number of units who don't get that…. and Nohr doesn't have that on Nohr native units (but they do get it through shared units). So Breakers might be a good alternative for Nohr to accomplish that.

EDIT: Your chart doesn't seem to display correctly. In any event, I've seen the chart, and am pretty sure that the pairing is possible. I was just speaking in the hypothetical in case a mistake was made, we were hoaxed and none of us had caught on yet, etc. Not likely, but just covering my bases there.

I posted a link a now. Spoiler seems not to be working.

[Dämonplay]

They can't be doubled, right ?

That's what defensive formation does. But you can't double attack yourself

[Bovinian]

Yeah, I'll elaborate on my previous post:

Breakers can be very useful, but mainly on classes that already have amazing Speed, and only when you focus on completely screwing a select few weapon types instead of trying to cover all of them. I'll use Awakening as an example: assuming there was a legit pvp, the weapons you would ideally want to focus on are tomes because most players love the shit out of tomes. Combined with an Assassin's high speed cap, if you ran Tomebreaker with Lucky 7 (and maybe even Quick Burn if you were going full dodgetank), you'd basically be immune to all tome users that werent running +Hit Skills. Of course all this becomes meaningless when you realize that in Streetpass, human players can pair up against your AI and gain incredible free boosts to their Hit, but Fates pvp will be more balanced in this regard.

The other good use of breakers would be to patch up your hit rate against weapons that you have weapon triangle disadvantage against. This is harder to do in Fates because you'd need to cover two different weapon types regardless of what you decide to use.

Keep in mind this is all theorycrafting and may be proven false in practice. This is mostly based on my Awakening knowledge, where these points do apply.

[Dämonplay]

I want to have my Avatar marry Matoi (assuming there's nothing hugely objectionable about her characterization when the support stuff comes out, seeing that I really liked Cordelia in Awakening and thus Cordelia 2.0 appeals to me).

Of course, Matoi is only an option on the Hoshidan and 3rd Routes.

I have a preference for red haired Matoi, which would imply Hinoka!Matoi on Hoshido and Hinoka or Luna!Matois for third route, assuming the claims about the 3rd route are actually true. I mean, strictly speaking, it doesn't HAVE to be that way, but I'd kind of like that.

I also kind of like being a more magically orientated character (partly thanks to its association with intellect, even as stated in the game's Japanese descriptions of the assets/flaws, as I understand) and my own real-life intellectual bent. Of course, Matoi is more a physical unit, growth wise, but perhaps there are still good classes that she could pick up skills from from some of the other classes in Second Sealing….

I'm wondering if something like taking Dark Mage would be a good idea for the Avatar… that way, not only do I get the magic user I like, but I also get to pass on a hybrid class (Dark Knight) to Matoi for her use while picking up skills (she could use a sword and her strength stat and not be totally crippled by poor magic growths in the meantime)… she could then grab things like Lifetaker (Matoi inherently leans defensive thanks to her father's +3 Defense mod, so the ability to further boost her survivability by letting her regenerate large chunks of HP from kills might be of use here. Although it does seem that kiling enemies in one round might not be as common as before, so maybe its not as worth it… not sure yet….

Magic Seal could be also useful, both to the Avatar and/or Matoi, as I'm pretty sure that you don't really get anything in the way of Dark Mages on the Hoshido route, which means this seal is unavailable otherwise…. that and Draconic Curse from the Dark Blood would be Nohr/3rd route only, presumably. So taking this would let me cover one of the missing seal skills.

By the way, if you equip multiple seals on a character, do they all trigger, or does only one of them do so? For instance, Hinoka!Matoi would get access to Defense and Speed Seals from the Holy Lancer, and could pick up a marriage-sealed Magic Seal. And she also has natural access regardless of parentage to Strength Seal through weapons Master.

If I were to take any random combination of these seals in tandem (as probably I might want to use some skills for other purposes) would they ALL trigger, or just one. Basically, could such a Matoi proc up to 4 such different Seals simultaneously if I wanted her to?

But of course, if I took Spellcaster or Priest, I could get Tomefaire instead for my Avatar. So that would be a tradeoff.

Just thinking about these things.

Luna!Matoi wouldn't get all the seals, but she'd get to play around with Breakers…. Mercenary gives Kunaibreaker and Axebreaker form promotions. And Sorcerer on Avatar would enable access to Bowbreaker, which also covers Matoi's flier weakness as a Pegasus (and Axebreaker covers up her weapon triangle disadvantage to an extent). She wouldn't have Lancefaire, but she could possibly run quite a defensive set…. Since she always has Samurai and Pegasus, and thus Flowing Strike, Swallow Strike, and Mirror Strike, she could run some combination of these strikes and breakers as an altnerate build…. and thanks to Luna's +1 defense mod, Subaki's +3 mod, and the +1 child bonus, she'd have a +5 defense bonus regardless of class.

Of course, she wouldn't' need to be in Pegasus…. she could do a Swordfaire Hero or something, although she'd have -1 strength mods if Luna was her mother. Or she could pull Dark Knight by marriage seal if I went with a Dark mage secondary on my Avatar…. oh, and that would let her emulate Cordelia's class set (and more) with Pegasus, Mercenary, and Dark Mage (marriage seal) alongside Subaki's Samuari class that she gained.

What are people's thoughts on these various Matoi builds?

if you like magic then maybe dark knight is the best for her. And a defensive set wouldn't be bad. I haven't looked into the seal skills too much but they seem good for defensive units who don't OHKO which overall is harder in this game. But you cn still marry and maybe A+ Support her so you get even more options and not need to use the breakers

[astrophys]

EDIT: Responding to Bovininan: Well, you could always just patch up one of your disadvantages… better than nothing.

ADDENUDUM… well, of course, I should consider that Matoi's personal skill also gives her a situation +4 damage boost, so she also has offensive applications as well…. it works off comparing the enemy's stronger offensive stat to her corresponding stat, so I suppose that if she's running a more defensive or hybrid set with normally lower offense caps (but perhaps better defensive stats) she still might end up hitting much harder than she'd normally do so thanks to frequently getting the boost against specialist units.

Meanwhile, she's still benefit from the more defensive lean of a build…. basically, using prodigy to take on a sturdier class and then offsetting its normally lower offenses.

Edited July 2, 2015 by astrophys

[Dämonplay]

Yeah, I'll elaborate on my previous post:

Breakers can be very useful, but mainly on classes that already have amazing Speed, and only when you focus on completely screwing a select few weapon types instead of trying to cover all of them. I'll use Awakening as an example: assuming there was a legit pvp, the weapons you would ideally want to focus on are tomes because most players love the shit out of tomes. Combined with an Assassin's high speed cap, if you ran Tomebreaker with Lucky 7 (and maybe even Quick Burn if you were going full dodgetank), you'd basically be immune to all tome users that werent running +Hit Skills. Of course all this becomes meaningless when you realize that in Streetpass, human players can pair up against your AI and gain incredible free boosts to their Hit, but Fates pvp will be more balanced in this regard.

The other good use of breakers would be to patch up your hit rate against weapons that you have weapon triangle disadvantage against. This is harder to do in Fates because you'd need to cover two different weapon types regardless of what you decide to use.

Keep in mind this is all theorycrafting and may be proven false in practice. This is mostly based on my Awakening knowledge, where these points do apply.

you need to cover two? I always thought the triangle with zomes bows abd kunais would just be another one by their own....but if it inflicts the original one as well yes you would. And that makes it a problem as you said. Cause possibly the second slot is better used for another skill. But imo axebreaker is a must berserkers are monsters in fates. At least from what I've heard so far

[astrophys]

So, defensively, that makes both Fighters and Mercenaries valuable, as they provide Brave Hero, and thus Axebreaker…. and Fighters also provide Berserker, so that could enable a counter-Berserker Berserker with Axebreaker.

[Dämonplay]

So, defensively, that makes both Fighters and Mercenaries valuable, as they provide Brave Hero, and thus Axebreaker. and Fighters also provide Berserker, so that could enable a counter-Berserker Berserker with Axebreaker.

It would yes...I just don't know if berserkers with axebreaker are good. Because they have so high stats you wanna use more offensive skills.

That's an example from my team how I'll counter berserkers:

Siegbert x Soleil

Parents: Marx x Charlotte

-Axebreaker

-Counter

-Luna

-Sol

-Aegis

-[Ladies First]

Classes required: Great Knight, Brave Hero

Endclass: Brave Hero

Skills inherited: Counter, Aegis

Overall: +6Str

+2Spd

+3Lck

-3Res

Not so sure about Sol. I just couldn't find anything better. Maybe Magic Counter with marriage seals

Edited July 2, 2015 by Dämonplay

[Bovinian]

I don't know if weapon rank bonuses and WTA/WTD work the same way in Fates as they do in Awakening, but in Awakening axe users get hit the hardest by WTD. Axe users lose 25% hit right off the bat (in addition to the -15% from WTD, they lose the extra 10% hit they get from a weapon rank of A), and axes are the most inaccurate weapon type to begin with so it isn't pretty for them. In Fates, axes have WTD against swords and tomes, both of which are likely to be used somewhat often. So yeah, Axebreaker could really fuck Berserkers up.

It's interesting to note though, that while Berserkers had one of the lowest Skill caps in Awakening, their Skill cap is pretty high in this game :o

[Dämonplay]

I don't know if weapon rank bonuses and WTA/WTD work the same way in Fates as they do in Awakening, but in Awakening axe users get hit the hardest by WTD. Axe users lose 25% hit right off the bat (in addition to the -15% from WTD, they lose the extra 10% hit they get from a weapon rank of A), and axes are the most inaccurate weapon type to begin with so it isn't pretty for them. In Fates, axes have WTD against swords and tomes, both of which are likely to be used somewhat often. So yeah, Axebreaker could really fuck Berserkers up.

It's interesting to note though, that while Berserkers had one of the lowest Skill caps in Awakening, their Skill cap is pretty high in this game :o

I guess it's to balance their weakpoints. 1st they can only use axes

2nd as you said WTD against swords and tomes and thanks to 1st they have no other option.

[Dämonplay]

I would like to discuss maybe another class. Not as common as berserkers but I still LOVE it: BASARA (maybe I just like it because my favourite fe character azura is gonna have it in my final team). But the class offers lances and tomes. So you can adopt to the situation. And the stats are very well balanced imo. And most importantly the vlass gives access to breaking sky (und flambouyant). What do you think about it?

[astrophys]

I do like the sound of it…..

[Dämonplay]

I do like the sound of it…..

Breaking sky is pretty much the best offensive ability in the entire game. And flamnbouyant is just not right with hoshido and lethality on a avatar. I love that class probably my favourite of all

[Bovinian]

I would like to discuss maybe another class. Not as common as berserkers but I still LOVE it: BASARA (maybe I just like it because my favourite fe character azura is gonna have it in my final team). But the class offers lances and tomes. So you can adopt to the situation. And the stats are very well balanced imo. And most importantly the vlass gives access to breaking sky (und flambouyant). What do you think about it?

Basara's stats are pretty nicely balanced. It might become an Awakening Dread Fighter-like case where it's this really cool hybrid offensive class that is good overall but doesn't absolutely excel in anything. But 65/30/32 HP/Def/Res is pretty freaking great.

As for Breaking Sky. It has a ridiculous proc rate (at least compared to other proc skills. It ends up being similar to Luna proc rates in Awakening considering the lower skill caps), but it may be pretty risky to rely on. Physically offensive units having 0% growths in Magic is a real thing in this game, so if you were to attack their Res, Breaking Sky will do literally nothing. Players will probably make sure to keep their non-dominant attack stats low on their non-hybrid units for this very reason.

[Dämonplay]

Basara's stats are pretty nicely balanced. It might become an Awakening Dread Fighter-like case where it's this really cool hybrid offensive class that is good overall but doesn't absolutely excel in anything. But 65/30/32 HP/Def/Res is pretty freaking great.

As for Breaking Sky. It has a ridiculous proc rate (at least compared to other proc skills. It ends up being similar to Luna proc rates in Awakening considering the lower skill caps), but it may be pretty risky to rely on. Physically offensive units having 0% growths in Magic is a real thing in this game, so if you were to attack their Res, Breaking Sky will do literally nothing. Players will probably make sure to keep their non-dominant attack stats low on their non-hybrid units for this very reason.

You can simply attack their def then. And basara itself is a hybrid which makes that easier. On my MU it's because it's just a great skill and hoshido plus flambouyant are making the proc rate way higher

[Ebony]

Wow, everyone already planning everything out... I'm still not sure who I'm even going to marry, ahaha... I wouldn't mind some help on that though. Anybody know a good person to pair with Leo in Nohr? Just in case I don't choose to marry him in that. Maybe Zero too?

[Dämonplay]

Wow, everyone already planning everything out... I'm still not sure who I'm even going to marry, ahaha... I wouldn't mind some help on that though. Anybody know a good person to pair with Leo in Nohr? Just in case I don't choose to marry him in that. Maybe Zero too?

I kinda inherited that. Everybody in my family plans months before it actually happens. Well our plans in here are mostly 3rd path. But for Leon... PvP or just for fun pairings?