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1 minute ago, Phoenix Wright said:

 

this has been thrown around a lot, but i just don't think it's true. anecdotally, i know it isn't true and in the general case i find that there are sufficient ways to deal with trauma s.t. the victim is not "dying every day."

replace the word rape with [crime that causes trauma]. would you be singing the same tune?

Yes. Any crime that severely damages a person's dignity and self worth would have the same tune sung from my mouth.

Not everyone can work past their trauma. Saying there are sufficient ways to deal with trauma is like telling victims to just go Google a solution and get on with life. Sure, victims can manage trauma and live life normally, but the trauma that sexual assault victims go through is more akin to a missing limb rather than a simple scar.

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4 minutes ago, XRay said:

Not everyone can work past their trauma. Saying there are sufficient ways to deal with trauma is like telling victims to just go Google a solution and get on with life. Sure, victims can manage trauma and live life normally, but the trauma that sexual assault victims go through is more akin to a missing limb rather than a simple scar.

Yeah, of my friends who have experience sexual assault, there are some common issues they deal with in relation to that on a daily basis, particularly involving their ability to trust others and cope with stressful situations. These are issues that can potentially interfere with their personal and professional lives, and are as serious and challenging as any other mental health problem.

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4 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said:

 

this has been thrown around a lot, but i just don't think it's true. anecdotally, i know it isn't true and in the general case i find that there are sufficient ways to deal with trauma s.t. the victim is not "dying every day."

replace the word rape with [crime that causes trauma]. would you be singing the same tune?

Yes.  I know multiple people in my family that went through non-rape trauma, and they haven't been the same since.

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5 hours ago, XRay said:

If I were McConnell, I would have just said that it has been a great year and we spent more money on the stuff that mattered, and the rising deficit is the proof that tax dollars are being spent properly. Might as well bullshit more at this point.

McConnel's M.O is to sabotage and he's more subtle about it than Trump, otherwise he would've been gone ages ago. 

In the document that he's being quoted on, he's adding his opponents to the blame when speaking to the public. People will buy into it because the government is corrupt and no one's disputing that.

Recently, he's been urging Democrats not to investigate Trump to cement fear into them that it may lead to Trump's re-election, pretending to be a "good guy" here.

David Jolly described the situation perfectly a month ago. Just change the wording from having to do with nominees to the context of Fiscal responsibility and cutting "entitlements". No difference.

4 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said:

this has been thrown around a lot, but i just don't think it's true. anecdotally, i know it isn't true and in the general case i find that there are sufficient ways to deal with trauma s.t. the victim is not "dying every day."

replace the word rape with [crime that causes trauma]. would you be singing the same tune?

Although the help exists, you also can't forget that people have to reach out for that help and they don't necessarily do it.

In the Kavanaugh debacle, recall that... 

Quote

Ford told the Post that she did not tell anyone, including her husband, about the incident until 2012

to a therapist for couple's counseling.

You could be a normal person just going to a psychiatrist to see if they may find any problem with you, come out of it being told you're completely fine but if people hear of such visits, it's generally followed with stigma.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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I don't like how the media and public are insinuating that men always get away with stuff like rape when one's social standing and influence is far more likely to help one escape justice. 

especially considering that one of the figureheads of the #metoo movement isn't particularly squeaky-clean herself

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1 hour ago, FrostyFireMage said:

I don't like how the media and public are insinuating that men always get away with stuff like rape when one's social standing and influence is far more likely to help one escape justice. 

Men get away with it all the time. All the fucking time. Doesn't matter who they are. Sexual assault is not necessarily tied to social standing and influence, it really stems from taking advantage of another person when the opportunity presents itself. The majority of perpetrators are regular men who are simply abusing trust or using nefarious methods like getting their victim incapacitated. The rich and powerful just have more means and opportunities available to them, and the connections to eke their way back into public perception despite nobody wanting them there. 

1 hour ago, FrostyFireMage said:

If you're so quick to dismiss a movement based on the experiences of countless victims because of the actions of one of them, then you're showing your true colors as someone who never gave a shit about women.

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Yeahhhhhhhh. For those people who still don't understand what "privilege" is. 

Women finally start breaking the cone of silence on sexual assault. Society at large reacts with we have to protect our boys from "allegations."

That's privilege.  

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You don't need to follow #MeToo to express your disdain for sexual assault and encourage a willingness to come forward, just the same as you don't need to follow BLM to be against police brutality, especially racially inspired cases

Edited by Edgelord
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2 hours ago, FrostyFireMage said:

I don't like how the media and public are insinuating that men always get away with stuff like rape when one's social standing and influence is far more likely to help one escape justice. 

Literally just settled a case where a woman was fired from her job after complaining to Human Resources that her boss told her the only reason she was hired was because she had "huge tits" + he fantasized about her performing oral sex on him and that made him "hard."

Workplace sexual harassment is probably about 1/3 of the caseload I see in the practice of employment law.  

Its everywhere: corporate board rooms, blue collar union halls, public works, private businesses. Schools, police departments, hospitals. 

Everywhere.

Every race. Every class. Every profession. 

 

59 minutes ago, Johann said:

 Sexual assault is not necessarily tied to social standing and influence, it really stems from taking advantage of another person when the opportunity presents itself. 

Yes sir.

Edited by Shoblongoo
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12 hours ago, XRay said:

Yes. Any crime that severely damages a person's dignity and self worth would have the same tune sung from my mouth.

Not everyone can work past their trauma. Saying there are sufficient ways to deal with trauma is like telling victims to just go Google a solution and get on with life. Sure, victims can manage trauma and live life normally, but the trauma that sexual assault victims go through is more akin to a missing limb rather than a simple scar.

1

? i don't understand why you'd say this. moreover, in the literal sense, is having a limb removed reason enough to stop living? should cutting off someone's arm or leg be treated harsher than murder?

11 hours ago, Johann said:

Yeah, of my friends who have experience sexual assault, there are some common issues they deal with in relation to that on a daily basis, particularly involving their ability to trust others and cope with stressful situations. These are issues that can potentially interfere with their personal and professional lives, and are as serious and challenging as any other mental health problem.

ok sure, but this is present throughout all forms of trauma. i don't understand why this means rape is worse than murder.

8 hours ago, eclipse said:

Yes.  I know multiple people in my family that went through non-rape trauma, and they haven't been the same since.

i am sorry to hear that. truthfully, i am the same way. but there's never been a point where i'd have rather died.

7 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

 

Although the help exists, you also can't forget that people have to reach out for that help and they don't necessarily do it.

 

In the Kavanaugh debacle, recall that... 

to a therapist for couple's counseling.

You could be a normal person just going to a psychiatrist to see if they may find any problem with you, come out of it being told you're completely fine but if people hear of such visits, it's generally followed with stigma.

 

but that's not an issue for crimes that cause severe trauma per se, it's a result of a terrible aspect of our current culture--it needs to change. we can never rid the world of any one violent crime, but we can definitely improve the ways we help people deal with them. that the current response in our aid to victims of said crimes is extremely poor isn't evidence that rape is strictly worse than murder.

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On 10/16/2018 at 4:31 AM, Johann said:

You're not paying attention. People in positions of power (whether judges, politicians, employers, etc) don't believe/stand up for women in large enough numbers. It's bad enough when a regular person doesn't believe a victim, but it's way worse when someone with the capacity to change things says "well, what can ya do"

Conversely, if we look at the whole nation's allotted EC votes, the voting power of middle America is significantly higher than on the coasts. Giving it all to the winner of the popular vote would be the clearest way to ensure that each individual vote matters. Of course, some will argue that it gives politicians little reason to reach out to smaller communities, though the flipside to that is how currently, they really only give a shit about swing states during campaign times, which doesn't seem to actually do much to help those communities anyway.

The ironic thing is how many Republican politicians routinely screw over their own constituents, and so these poor red states are often voting against their own interests.

It also gives voters little reason to vote in states where they feel their vote is wasted. I wonder if doing away with the EC would be encourage more people to vote?

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22 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said:

? i don't understand why you'd say this. moreover, in the literal sense, is having a limb removed reason enough to stop living? should cutting off someone's arm or leg be treated harsher than murder?

The missing limb is an analogy to how severe it is. Emotionally, it is as if a limb is missing. A missing limb is not something like a scar that you can just forget about and move on from. You will always see it, or at least it is always in the back of your mind.

Edited by XRay
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17 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said:

ok sure, but this is present throughout all forms of trauma. i don't understand why this means rape is worse than murder.

Never said one was worse than the other, just that rape/sexual assault can seriously damage a person for life. This can potentially be in ways that leads them down self-destructive paths, including suicide. 

5 minutes ago, Res said:

It also gives voters little reason to vote in states where they feel their vote is wasted. I wonder if doing away with the EC would be encourage more people to vote?

I'd like to think so, there's definitely a strong sense of apathy throughout the country regarding politics as a whole and the "your vote doesn't actually matter" notion plays a part in that. I think some of the problem is also tied to how elections and campaigns function, which require a considerable amount of resources, making higher public office unobtainable for the average citizen. This results in our politicians not only largely being made up of wealthy individuals who are removed from the issues affecting most people, but also usually beholden to donor interests. 

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Problem: average liberals and conservatives have a lot more in common with each other than the respective elites they choose to align themselves with against each other if they are politically active. People are conditioned to think that Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan are more like us. It's effective and pervasive.

It might be worth thinking about who's really on your side.

Edited by Edgelord
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6 minutes ago, Johann said:

the "your vote doesn't actually matter" notion plays a part in that.

That sad part is that it is only partially true, so a lot of people just think all voting is pointless. While your vote most likely does not matter for national elections unless you are in a purple district or purple state, local and state elections are very impactful and those elections should not simply be left to other people.

For example, while a voter might not be able to help undocumented immigrants get a path to citizenship, a voter can have a huge impact locally by getting Democrats onto city councils and turn the city into a sanctuary city to make it more difficult for ICE to deport and disrupt local communities.

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1 minute ago, XRay said:

That sad part is that it is only partially true, so a lot of people just think all voting is pointless. While your vote most likely does not matter for national elections unless you are in a purple district or purple state, local and state elections are very impactful and those elections should not simply be left to other people.

For example, while a voter might not be able to help undocumented immigrants get a path to citizenship, a voter can have a huge impact locally by getting Democrats onto city councils and turn the city into a sanctuary city to make it more difficult for ICE to deport and disrupt local communities.

Yeah, this part of the voting process is lost on a lot of people who probably don't even know how their local governments work, or who their elected officials are.

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

The missing limb is an analogy to how severe it is. Emotionally, it is as if a limb is missing. A missing limb is not something like a scar that you can just forget about and move on from. You will always see it, or at least it is always in the back of your mind.

yes, but to remain consistent with your earlier argument: 'Living with the trauma is like dying on the inside. People can overcome it, but it is like living with all your limbs chopped off being bound to wheelchair. Not everyone wants to live through that kind of crap. Obviously, most victims are not going to go kill themselves since living is strong [sic] pretty strong instinct, but between dying via head shot and living through hell, I would pick head shot.'

i don't see the parallels. 

1 hour ago, Johann said:

Never said one was worse than the other, just that rape/sexual assault can seriously damage a person for life. This can potentially be in ways that leads them down self-destructive paths, including suicide.

1

fair enough and i agree. didn't mean to misrepresent your argument. some argue that it is strictly worse, so that is what i was responding to.

i probably should get back on topic...

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2 hours ago, Edgelord said:

Problem: average liberals and conservatives have a lot more in common with each other than the respective elites they choose to align themselves with against each other if they are politically active. People are conditioned to think that Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan are more like us. It's effective and pervasive.

It might be worth thinking about who's really on your side.

Though I believe this, I'm going to play devil's advocate.

How so? Aren't their ideologies/worldviews completely at odds with one another? Are there any examples/issues that show they can find common ground?

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54 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said:

i don't see the parallels. 

I am not sure what parallels you do not see?

Trauma is severe to the point that it is like dying or being disabled, and for some people dying is better than experiencing hell.

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1 hour ago, Pixelman said:

Though I believe this, I'm going to play devil's advocate.

How so? Aren't their ideologies/worldviews completely at odds with one another? Are there any examples/issues that show they can find common ground?

Healthcare - Conservatives in the UK, even Margaret Thatcher, upheld a tax-funded healthcare system. When you present Conservatives with the idea of medicare for all without any "socialism" stigma (even though it... is a social policy), they like it.

Gun reform - While guns will not be banned, most conservatives agree with some form of reasonable gun laws.

Meritocracy - Hard workers should be paid fairly for their efforts. Unfortunately, many lower class workers do not get the rewards they deserve. The teachers strikes in the US happened in Republican-leaning states.

Anti-authoritarian tendencies - Most liberals and conservatives would not describe themselves as authoritarian. This is in contrast to how the Democrats and Republicans govern, with little regard for the Fourth Ammendment, spying on citizens, and torture.

Anti-war sentiments - this one is easy common ground compared to elected officials.

Money out of politics - both generally see government in its current state as corrupt, and they're right.

Infrastructure deals - American infrastructure is extremely poor for its standing in the world. Conservatives should be open to a infrastructure spending (like Trump said he would do but... not happening) or a FDR-style New Deal.

Anti-corporatism - average Conservatives are more in favour of free market style economics, but they are not in favour of the government doing backhand deals with defense contractors, banks or financial institutions.

Off the top of my head.


I suppose in my head I have more a libertarian perspective when I'm thinking of a Conservative, because I think social Conservatism is waning. On the libertarian spectrum, they are often in favour of ending the drug war/legalisation of marijuana, in favor of gay rights, and being pro-choice as well. Mention to them that climate change (as purported even by Trump's administration) is going to lead to temperature increases, and there was a report saying that it would lead to the Middle East being inhabitable a while ago. Let them know that they will be responsible for the biggest refugee crisis the world has ever seen in future and you might get them to drop "climate change is a hoax" as a partisan issue. Concensus on "free trade" or "outsourcing deals" may be mixed.

There's probably more, and of course there is going to be conflicts and I would never say I liked Conservative philosophy, but it certainly is a lot more than US elected officials...

Liberals are generally reformists that want to preserve capitalism. There's always going to be the ones you can't reach at all. I don't think most people are socialists (note difference between "social policies" or "welfare statism"), ancappers, or fascists.

Edited by Edgelord
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Anecdotally speaking, the real-life conservatives I talk to are largely involved in the Navy and maritime businesses (shipping, etc) and fully acknowledge a lot of the problems that the party as a whole seems to have (climate change being a prime example), and are just wary about methods for approaching those issues. In that sense, those people are more centrist types, which isn't really surprising given I'm in Massachusetts. Our governor, Charlie Baker, is along these lines, and unsurprisingly, he's got the highest approval rating of any governor in the country. If the core of the GOP, especially its leadership and mouthpieces, had the same beliefs and behavior, then I don't think we'd be nearly as divided politically.

Online, I have encountered that kind of insane bullshit-eating conservatives who, when presented with decades of NOAA data on surface temperatures, are always looking for a reason to discredit it. "They changed it", "they faked it", "here's a random blog post that proves otherwise", they'll respond, always ready with a reason why hard evidence is somehow wrong (one guy I argued with even tried to claim that atmospheric science is a soft science and without empirical findings). There's no reasoning with them, no middle ground, no real debate, these are actual people who are true believers. These are people who really carry that persecution complex and celebrate anything that they deem as a loss for the left, even if it's actually pyrrhic or a loss for everyone (ie: Russian meddling). As far as I can tell, shutting down their message, whether through de-platforming or aggressively humiliating them, is the only true way to keep their madness from spreading.

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There are plenty of normal ass people who just happen to consider themselves conservatives, and don't devote themselves to politics. These are the people you'll probably be able to find plenty of middle ground with. 

There are also the disconnected people who have done nothing but listen to Fox News and have essentially been brainwashed into thinking one way. Generally these people are misinformed. Talk to them long enough and word your arguments in ways that connect to them, and you can probably find middle ground. Bernie Sanders was good at connecting with these people because of this. 

You're not going to find middle ground with the "new breed" conservatives. The ones who hole themselves up in their homes and just read biased news sources and shitpost about politics on Facebook, Twitter and message boards. These are the Proud Boys and modern age white supremacists who are convinced they're right because they listen to Ben Shapiro and Sargon of Akkad on YouTube every waking moment while calling people racial slurs in Overwatch. These people find a narrative they like, and stick to it like they're made of super glue. And if they don't agree with what you're saying, they'll just punch you in the fuckin' face. 

Edited by Slumber
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9 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said:

but that's not an issue for crimes that cause severe trauma per se, it's a result of a terrible aspect of our current culture--it needs to change. we can never rid the world of any one violent crime, but we can definitely improve the ways we help people deal with them. that the current response in our aid to victims of said crimes is extremely poor isn't evidence that rape is strictly worse than murder.

I'm not arguing one or the other, simply saying although the help is there, the people with the trauma still have to make the effort to reach out and get help for it but there's cases they don't thus they live with that for a longer period than they should so how long a person would deal with such trauma and how much of a impact it has on them  is likely underestimated. If you're murdered, you're just dead, losing out on all positive opportunities but also freed from the negatives.

Personally, I'm not sure which to call worse.

6 hours ago, Pixelman said:

Though I believe this, I'm going to play devil's advocate.

How so? Aren't their ideologies/worldviews completely at odds with one another? Are there any examples/issues that show they can find common ground?

In American politics, Ideology is currently taking a backseat to corruption and the rich exploiting racism and bigotry. Common people in the US can definitely find common ground on issues but 

Take for example one of the earlier points used:

5 hours ago, Edgelord said:

Healthcare - Conservatives in the UK, even Margaret Thatcher, upheld a tax-funded healthcare system. When you present Conservatives with the idea of medicare for all without any "socialism" stigma (even though it... is a social policy), they like it.

Medicare, Social Security, Welfare and the like are all social policies that are popular in the country and used by conservatives. Republican voters are easily convinced by Fox News and the like that nonwhites are just mooching off the government by taking food stamps when the reality is that your raging Trump voter is most likely a recipient.

It's been echoed many times in this thread: conservatives are literally being convinced to vote against their own interest and it's not a statement being made without evidence, it is the plain the truth perpetuated by right-wing pundits directing their conservative base to issues that don't really affect them but just prey on their systemic racism/bigotry and hide information on issues they would panic over. In the last few pages of this thread, you've seen posts about McConnell's thoughts on the deficit. Look through conservative media and see how frequently you'll find stories on Mitch McConnell addressing the deficit via cuts to Entitlements and then compare by just going to any news outlet Trump has dubbed "Fake News" and running that same search. When the day comes that one of the 3 most problematic pundits of Fox News (Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham) talk about it, it'll probably be spun to look like Welfare is strictly used by non-whites or some shit like that.

Lastly, today's GOP in a nutshell is a living LBJ quote.

In other news, as much as I want Beto O'Rourke to win the Texas Senate... I don't think he did enough in last night's debate and his closing statement was just weak. That pause by Ted Cruz though.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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8 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

In other news, as much as I want Beto O'Rourke to win the Texas Senate... I don't think he did enough in last night's debate and his closing statement was just weak.

I'd wager that, given the stacked deck he's up against, his best chances are based on his ability to get around the state and campaign at local settings, knocking on doors, etc, which is something he excels at. I'm sure it's because he's been doing this so much that he's even considered to have a chance thus far. Whether or not it'll be enough will be a close call, but it's definitely far too soon to call it a done deal.

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11 hours ago, Johann said:

Men get away with it all the time. All the fucking time. Doesn't matter who they are. Sexual assault is not necessarily tied to social standing and influence, it really stems from taking advantage of another person when the opportunity presents itself. The majority of perpetrators are regular men who are simply abusing trust or using nefarious methods like getting their victim incapacitated. The rich and powerful just have more means and opportunities available to them, and the connections to eke their way back into public perception despite nobody wanting them there. 

If you're so quick to dismiss a movement based on the experiences of countless victims because of the actions of one of them, then you're showing your true colors as someone who never gave a shit about women.

Women get away or get lenient sentences with stuff all the time too, from having sex with underage males to abusing their children to assaulting men. Stop pretending that legal immunity is only available to men. 

Also way to assume I'm a misogynist just because I'm presenting an impartial viewpoint.

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