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1 hour ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Unsurprisingly, Trump still has support. His supporters' talking points have now shifted to "Why are people bashing Trump when he wants peace? If he didn't do what he did, we'd be at war now" and of course "Where is the server?". They'll always find some way to spin it.

I find that argument to be nonsense. Appeasement has never been the basis for lasting peace. 

At one point relations with Russia should be normalized but at this point Russia has done nothing to earn it. They are the aggressor here so why should the relation be normalized on Russia's terms? Letting Russia get off scott free for illegally annexing land and undermining the international order is only going to set dangerous precedents. If Putin can rob its neighbors at gunpoint and get away with it then why wouldn't Erdogan take bites out of northern Syria? If a declining power like Russia can annex land then why would a rising super power like China not be allowed to do the same? 

If Russia's behavior gets legitimized and normalized it will be open season on any non NATO country before we know it. 

Appeasement might in fact be the path that will lead to war because it confuses leaders where the line is supposed to be. Maybe Putin would consider Trump's behavior akin to a blank cheque and we'd have war if he's mistaken about the matter or if the other branches of America's government refuses to accept the blank cheque. Perhaps another third rate dictator honestly believes him trying to annex his neighbors won't lead to war because it didn't when Putin did it, only to have the international community not accept the theft that time. Its best if the international community ensures such misunderstandings will never arise because things can go horribly wrong if they do. 

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41 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Appeasement might in fact be the path that will lead to war because it confuses leaders where the line is supposed to be. Maybe Putin would consider Trump's behavior akin to a blank cheque and we'd have war if he's mistaken about the matter or if the other branches of America's government refuses to accept the blank cheque. Perhaps another third rate dictator honestly believes him trying to annex his neighbors won't lead to war because it didn't when Putin did it, only to have the international community not accept the theft that time. Its best if the international community ensures such misunderstandings will never arise because things can go horribly wrong if they do. 

Not just that, it's probably even more destructive for our relations with our foreign allies than what went down at the NATO summit. The Treason Summit has effectively put the GOP in a position where they now have to choose:

A. Maintain support from the crazies that still support Trump after what happened yesterday which are dwindling in numbers and only fuel the indifferent people of 2016 to vote Democratic in the midterms and possibly open the gate for complete obliteration of the party and cause for our allies to leave us.

B. Retreat by letting Trump's impeachment go forward and have Mike Pence take the seat to be your "normal" Republican president and perform the damage control they're already going to without Trump in the way to further hamper it.

Yesterday's Treason Summit should also speak to people arguing "Mike Pence would be worse" in defense of Trump Impeachment: Mike Pence would've either never requested the meeting or he would've cancelled it on Friday upon seeing the indictments. He also wouldn't be calling NATO a foe. There IS danger in having a moron like Trump as President when you look at the bigger picture.

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10 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Yesterday's Treason Summit should also speak to people arguing "Mike Pence would be worse" in defense of Trump Impeachment: Mike Pence would've either never requested the meeting or he would've cancelled it on Friday upon seeing the indictments. He also wouldn't be calling NATO a foe. There IS danger in having a moron like Trump as President when you look at the bigger picture.

I also think it's kind of destructive to say "we don't want to hold Trump accountable for these crimes because someone else is 'worse'" How does that make us look as a nation, not being able to hold the president accountable because we think "Pence would be worse". I'm not even sure what's worse about Pence, what exactly is Pence going to do that Trump hasn't been doing or trying to do?

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Before yesterday, I thought maybe it was going too far to accuse Trump of treason. Now I can probably accept it. His weakness far outweighs that of Neville Chamberlain. If I were Magic Mike, I wouldn't wait for The Don to get the boot, I would declare the President unable to carry out his duty and encourage Congress to begin Impeachment proceedings. Worry about the legal part later. Get him out, and quickly.

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37 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Before yesterday, I thought maybe it was going too far to accuse Trump of treason. Now I can probably accept it. His weakness far outweighs that of Neville Chamberlain.

I've seen a few people make this comparison and I've gotta disagree - Neville Chamberlain actually had good intentions - he wanted peace.

4 hours ago, RandomJC said:

I also think it's kind of destructive to say "we don't want to hold Trump accountable for these crimes because someone else is 'worse'" How does that make us look as a nation, not being able to hold the president accountable because we think "Pence would be worse". I'm not even sure what's worse about Pence, what exactly is Pence going to do that Trump hasn't been doing or trying to do?

You can bet Pence as a fundamentalist would drag debates back to anti gay marriage and anti abortion more than they already are for the Republicans. Trump isn't really a religious fundamentalist in the same way Pence is.

He'd probably be better in international relations and not as embarrassing as Trump but he's a true believer of Republican philosophy and that might actually be worse within the confines of the US. He'd be willing to pretty much sign whatever the Republicans want him to, and that includes opting into free trade deals which is where Trump likes to act as though he is different from Republican orthodoxy on.

Edited by Edgelord
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On 7/17/2018 at 1:29 PM, Hylian Air Force said:

Before yesterday, I thought maybe it was going too far to accuse Trump of treason. 

Same. Corruption, incompetence, fascism--all that I'd have said was true and accurate, but I would have stopped short of "traitor" and opined anyone accusing him of treason was engaging in rank hyperbole.

Yesterdays performance puts us in "treason is no longer hyperbole" territory. 

Edited by Shoblongoo
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20 minutes ago, Edgelord said:

You can bet Pence as a fundamentalist would drag debates back to anti gay marriage and anti abortion more than they already are for the Republicans. Trump isn't really a religious fundamentalist in the same way Pence is.

Excuse me while I look at Trump's Supreme Court Nominee whose selling points are...will overturn Roe V. Wade and is against Gay marriage. Trump is doing what Pence would do.

21 minutes ago, Edgelord said:

He'd probably be better in international relations and not as embarrassing as Trump but he's a true believer of Republican philosophy and that might actually be worse within the confines of the US. He'd be willing to pretty much sign whatever the Republicans want him to, and that includes opting into free trade deals which is where Trump likes to act as though he is different from Republican orthodoxy on.

Trump has signed everything that was put in front of him so far. He says he doesn't follow the Republican orthodoxy, but he sure looks like it from here. That's my point. Trump doesn't have personal politics, which means on paper, Pence is "worse". But if you look at what Trump is actually doing, domestically, how is that any different than what Pence would be doing?

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18 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Excuse me while I look at Trump's Supreme Court Nominee whose selling points are...will overturn Roe V. Wade and is against Gay marriage. Trump is doing what Pence would do.

Trump has signed everything that was put in front of him so far. He says he doesn't follow the Republican orthodoxy, but he sure looks like it from here. That's my point. Trump doesn't have personal politics, which means on paper, Pence is "worse". But if you look at what Trump is actually doing, domestically, how is that any different than what Pence would be doing?

Don't necessarily disagree with that - I'm interested to see what Kavanaugh's actual opinions are on Roe V Wade are though because he's been purposely unclear to say the least - at times saying it's precedent, and he's also said he still wants to overturn it. I do think that they risk major political backlash if they attempt to do repeal either, but this is the Republicans and I don't think they care about that.

I know Trump likes to say he plays like an outsider, but that's just his rhetoric. I don't think Pence would be willing to try and achieve "peace" with North Korea even if Trump takes undue credit for it. Trump also has on numerous occasions kneecapped his own ideas because he can't shut his mouth about the 'Muslim' ban as he's described it several times. Pence is unlikely to waste his time and effort trying to wrangle funding for a wall that isn't going to do anything or will actually happen.

If anything, though, I think Pence is generally more unlikable or just viewed as another establishment Republican which would probably make him more unlikely to win later, which is probably a good thing.

I think Pence would not necessarily be better or worse than Trump. He's more standard politician but that doesn't mean better. But you're really asking for an argument between which is better: herpes or genital warts.

Edited by Edgelord
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1 hour ago, Shuuda said:

So Trump had just misspoken on Russia was all. That'll satisfy everyone's issue I'm sure.

Trump was pretty adamant and clear in his wording. He had a follow up tweet that doubled down on his statement and blamed America.

There is no back tracking now.

While I am not sure if Democrats campaigning on the message of impeachment is a good idea for the midterm elections since it is quite divisive, but if Democrats win the House, I would be pressing my Representative to call for impeachment.

Edited by XRay
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9 hours ago, RandomJC said:

I also think it's kind of destructive to say "we don't want to hold Trump accountable for these crimes because someone else is 'worse'" How does that make us look as a nation, not being able to hold the president accountable because we think "Pence would be worse". I'm not even sure what's worse about Pence, what exactly is Pence going to do that Trump hasn't been doing or trying to do?

Agreed. One argument I've heard is that Pence will be more effective and getting horrible shit done than Trump. Found an article with some points on why "Pence is worse than Trump".

Quote

1. He's in the pocket of the Koch brothers.

I find this point rather moot because so is Paul Ryan (as well as other Republicans) and the second that Ryan or Pence bring up anything the Koch brothers would want, Trump would support it.

Quote

2. He's openly disdainful of science.

Also finding this moot. If Trump isn't already disdainful of science the Republicans could easily sway him to do anything against it with little to no trouble. He's proven to be a willing puppet of anything that'll put cash in his pockets and appeal to the hate from his base.

Quote

3. He's a virulent homophobe.

Does Trump even care about Gay rights? If not, same as above on him being a willing puppet/appealing to his base and seconding RandomJC's comment on Kavanaugh.

Quote

4. He's determined to roll back women's rights.

"Women, you have to treat them like shit". Puppet, etc.

Quote

5. His economic ideas are a proven disaster.

And Trump's ideas have resulted in bankruptcies as well as charity fraud currently under legal action and we all know he'll do anything for self-benefit which isn't different from establishment Republicans.

Here's one thing I'll grant to the "Pence would be worse side": Like Edgelord suggested, Pence wouldn't waste all this time pushing for the border wall so those of us in the country are somewhat blessed that Trump is so focused on the border wall that he isn't currently seeking to do harm via these 5 points. However, I specifically said "those of us in the country" because we must not forget the zero tolerance policy's harm and so this loses a bit because Pence probably wouldn't have pushed like Trump on immigration and lead to that horrid policy.

4 hours ago, Edgelord said:

If anything, though, I think Pence is generally more unlikable or just viewed as another establishment Republican which would probably make him more unlikely to win later, which is probably a good thing.

I think Pence would not necessarily be better or worse than Trump. He's more standard politician but that doesn't mean better. But you're really asking for an argument between which is better: herpes or genital warts.

The fact that Pence is an establishment Republican makes him easier to beat in 2020 and he's not Trump so he may end up with even less support. That's a plus to Trump's impeachment.

Yeah, at the end of the day neither of them would be good for the country but here's the thing: You know Trump is absolute shit so get rid of him. If Pence is indeed worse than Trump then you have confirmation that he should be impeached too and if impeachment of the vice president isn't a possibility and he IS worse than Trump, doesn't that result in his chances of winning 2020 being worse than Trump's? The idea that "Trump is an outsider and not part of the establishment" IS part of his Charisma to his base after all.

To keep Trump from being impeached because his follow-up is more determined to do shit we know Trump would do if any Republican brought it up seems rather pointless. Additionally, if you keep Trump in power and he ends up getting killed like he deserves to be, it goes back to the argument that Trump being killed before impeachment would have his base see him as a Martyr. You impeach the fucker, you have less of his supporters seeing it this way and set an example that there is a goddamn limit to stupidity and treason.

EDIT: With all that's been going on and said, here's what the GOP decided to do today: A hearing on facebook/social media bias. Priorities, WHAT ARE THOOOOOOOOOOOSE?

Trump had a choice in when the 12 indictments would be announced.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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1 hour ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Also finding this moot. If Trump isn't already disdainful of science the Republicans could easily sway him to do anything against it with little to no trouble. He's proven to be a willing puppet of anything that'll put cash in his pockets and appeal to the hate from his base.

Pence is next level. He doesn't think smoking is linked to cancer.

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13 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Pence is next level. He doesn't think smoking is linked to cancer.

To be honest, it doesn't seem any crazier than the fact that the Donald thinks we are all full of finite energy like a battery and exercise consumes this.

1 hour ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Does Trump even care about Gay rights? If not, same as above on him being a willing puppet/appealing to his base and seconding RandomJC's comment on Kavanaugh.

I don't think Trump cares either way, but Pence is actively against it and is more likely to push for it from himself at the very least.

1 hour ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

The fact that Pence is an establishment Republican makes him easier to beat in 2020 and he's not Trump so he may end up with even less support. That's a plus to Trump's impeachment.

I agree. It was just that Pence is give and take in some aspects he might be better on and some he might be worse on. I don't think he would embarass himself talking to US allies like European countries, but he might be worse from a social conservative perspective from himself. He also is more competent than Trump at being a contemporary politician.

Edited by Edgelord
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2 minutes ago, Edgelord said:

the Donald thinks we are all full of finite energy like a battery and exercise consumes this.

That is, at the least charitable interpretation is idiocy and at the most charitable interpretation is "he's not willing to learn how it works but whatever." I'd rather someone think that than be in, what may well be a target of tobacco lobbies.

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12 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Pence is next level. He doesn't think smoking is linked to cancer.

I think you might be misquoting him. Here is what I found on Snopes. While Pence is bad, I do not like to make people look worse than they are.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

That is, at the least charitable interpretation is idiocy and at the most charitable interpretation is "he's not willing to learn how it works but whatever." I'd rather someone think that than be in, what may well be a target of tobacco lobbies.

Yeah, I know the latter is pretty much the target for corporate corruption lobbying deals and the former is just Trump being fucking weird, but there is some which may have corporate connotations, like the fact that he thought (or still thinks?) that global warming is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese (or just a hoax in general, which he has stated several times)

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19 minutes ago, XRay said:

I think you might be misquoting him. Here is what I found on Snopes. While Pence is bad, I do not like to make people look worse than they are.

Oh, cool. He's basically blindly anti-regulation.

Quote

Government big enough to protect us from our own stubborn wills.

In 2000, he didn't seem to care about addiction and exploitation. But I'm not arguing with Mike Pence

15 minutes ago, Edgelord said:

Yeah, I know the latter is pretty much the target for corporate corruption lobbying deals and the former is just Trump being fucking weird, but there is some which may have corporate connotations, like the fact that he thought (or still thinks?) that global warming is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese (or just a hoax in general, which he has stated several times)

If I'm being real, I don't think Trump cares about anything and he'll just say shit like that just to rile people up. I actually don't think it really matters what Trump actually believes or doesn't believe and I think that all he cares about is attention and branding, with an added touch of Putin stepping on his balls daily.

 

It's better, in a lot of ways, than someone like Pence in the now. Trump has actually damaged IR beyond belief for more reasons than one, and at this point there's not much Pence could do to really make it better or worse (the dude has the personality of a flaccid penis) but Pence is definitely more disastrous for domestic politics.

Granted, to a certain extent I don't think Roe v Wade or Obergefell v Hodges will ever be removed. They will lose far too many votes, either from people who are pro-life or people who want more done. I think we will see significantly more gay discrimination and racial discrimination under Pence, though, because in all honesty gay marriage is such a meaningless issue -- actual discriminatory policies towards members of the LGBT+ community is an issue that the Republican Party actively wants to push.

 

Though, once people realize that they're being fucked up the ass because of their obsession with abortion and gay marriages, then they'll be voted out -- and it won't take long until they lose their job for a dumb reason and their medicare is gone. Remove abortion from your platform and remove gay marriage as things that have been struck down by SCOTUS, and what do we have? A 20,000 dollar medical debt because as it turns out, people get sick and people break their limbs all the time.

Edited by Lord Raven
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29 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

If I'm being real, I don't think Trump cares about anything and he'll just say shit like that just to rile people up. I actually don't think it really matters what Trump actually believes or doesn't believe and I think that all he cares about is attention and branding, with an added touch of Putin stepping on his balls daily.

And that's precisely what makes Trump a puppet for Republicans to manipulate, including Pence. Recall the time that Fox and Friends suggested to distract from Comey's book by bombing Syria and it happened the next day. All you have to do to manipulate a Trump (at least the males) is to spin your agenda it in such a way that it appeals to their interests. Trump Jr took a selfie with a girl wearing a shirt that says "Latinas AGAINST Trump" in Spanish because the idiot thought she was a Trump supporter just because the shirt had the name "Trump" and it wasn't English so he didn't care to understand it.

Now, you're absolutely right that Pence would go after the aforementioned points by himself because they're obviously part of his agenda but there is a clear difference in support from the people that he and Trump have and while chasing the wall and immigration as the primary issues is actually a waste of time, it is a big part of why he's got lunatics still supporting him and as we've seen from tweets of his supporters: They don't care that Trump lies to them, they just care about the results and they really want to see the border wall built because they've gone all in on that propaganda that the Wall will solve the immigration problem.

I think to further cement Pence's takedown in 2020, the guy needs some exposure as president so we can all see and confirm what the guy and the Republicans are about for those that are still on the fence on whether or not they should vote in November and if the Blue Wave happens in November, Pence SHOULD be practically powerless on 4 of those 5 issues. Let's not forget that the Tax Cuts didn't do what the Republicans advertised and with Trump gone, Republican voters that suffered under Trump's tariffs will not be blind nor kind to this lie.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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6 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Oh, cool. He's basically blindly anti-regulation.

Personally, I am sort of with Pence on this issue. I am not a fan of the government intruding into social matters. ID requirement to purchase, high sales tax, and big warning labels are enough in my opinion. Oh, and environmental protection laws too, but that applies to every industry.

I do not want the government to tell me what I can or cannot shove up my ass or what I can or cannot smoke.

2 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

they just care about the results

I am not sure they do. They have no values and only care about "winning" with no idea what winning is. Unlike real conservatives, if Trump asks their wives to drop the soap, they would let him have his way.

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4 hours ago, XRay said:

Personally, I am sort of with Pence on this issue. I am not a fan of the government intruding into social matters. ID requirement to purchase, high sales tax, and big warning labels are enough in my opinion. Oh, and environmental protection laws too, but that applies to every industry.

I do not want the government to tell me what I can or cannot shove up my ass or what I can or cannot smoke.

I don't think you're with Pence on that, and you might wanna do a bit more research on where he stands.

He does want to regulate social matters, including what you can shove up your ass and what you can smoke. That smoking regulation thing was written in support of tobacco industries, not individuals. The regulation he's against are the environmental protections and rights of women, minorities, and LGBT people.

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On 7/17/2018 at 8:08 PM, XRay said:

I am not sure they do. They have no values and only care about "winning" with no idea what winning is. Unlike real conservatives, if Trump asks their wives to drop the soap, they would let him have his way.

That's what I think too but every time I see an answer from people who still support Trump, they'll always say it's about the "results", example.

I can't tell if what I'm seeing in the video is astounding stupidity, self-destructed free will or just really petty people. I will say this though: Obama should've just forgotten about being fair to the Republicans and let it be known to the public that the Russians were interfering and that the Republican leaders were putting someone in the presidency that may be compromised. Obama tried to be fair here but looking at how things stand today, that attempt at courtesy to the Republicans and Trump is a failure.

Also, it seems Trump's been telling himself that "Putin isn't guilty" since day one and as many have probably figured, "No Collusion" is his lullaby.

EDIT: Russian state TV's thoughts on Trump

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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On 7/17/2018 at 6:08 PM, XRay said:

Personally, I am sort of with Pence on this issue. I am not a fan of the government intruding into social matters. ID requirement to purchase, high sales tax, and big warning labels are enough in my opinion. Oh, and environmental protection laws too, but that applies to every industry.

I do not want the government to tell me what I can or cannot shove up my ass or what I can or cannot smoke.

I agree in theory, but keep in mind that a lot of industries use basically dependence and a sort of feedback loop to continue to sell their products. It's very exploitative.

However, a lot of regulation wrt cigarettes are to give less of an incentive to buy. They don't make smoking illegal. Instead they tax agencies on the grounds that they basically sell something that is effectively poisonous in large doses. Look up a lot of European/Australian rolling tobacco bags and cigarette boxes compared to the US. They are actually actively repulsive and not exactly something i'd want to keep anywhere but stashed away with my weed. 

That's why I said blindly against regulations. I'm against blind regulation just as I am against blind deregulation. I believe that many times, information is not available when released and many agencies may consider it safe until more research comes out. Do you think if we knew everything about cigarettes before it was invented, it would actually be sold? Furthermore, if cigarettes weren't physically addictive (which they absolutely are), then do you think there would be a need for regulation?

Regulation is and should be about needs, end-goals, and keeping the populace safe from exploitative practices. Tobacco companies are very exploitative.

Edited by Lord Raven
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23 hours ago, Johann said:

He does want to regulate social matters,

I know he wants to regulate my asshole, but I am fine with his pro tobacco stance.

2 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

That's what I think too but every time I see an answer from people who still support Trump, they'll always say it's about the "results", example.

I cannot wait for them to blame the coming recession on Obama. In my opinion, Trump and his policies are overheating the economy and it is not sustainable. He cut taxes on the wealthy and corporations, significantly weakened regulation on banks (a lot of Democrats are to blame for this as well), and wages remain fucking stagnant. With tariffs being slapped on us left and right, we do not even have the fucking cushion of the global economy to buy our stuff once the recession hits.

I am lucky to be earning $20/hr, but my friends who got their bachelors are still stuck in shit positions with ~$15/hr or less despite having the similar amount of schooling. The ones who did not get their Bachelors earn even less, like maybe a dollar or so above minimum wage.

2 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

Regulation is and should be about needs, end-goals, and keeping the populace safe from exploitative practices. Tobacco companies are very exploitative.

On social matters, I generally want a hands off approach, although I am fine with very light intrusions like educating the public, having age limits, etc., but I am uncomfortable with regulating the tobacco industry just on the grounds of babysitting people.

If people want to get their fix from alcohol, gambling, sugar, tobacco, weed, or even harder substances like coke and meth, that is fine by me. People should have the freedom to do what they want and face the consequences of their actions.

I am fine with the government taxing addictive substances heavily since those substances are a stress on our health care system. Big warning labels and scary pictures are fine too. But anything more intrusive than that, I am a bit hesitant at supporting.

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