Thracia 776 A common misconception [FE5]

[Jedi]

Over the years I've heard the term "Such and such game may be harder then Thracia!"

When in reality Thracia isn't even that hard of an FE game, sure it blindsides a first time player and has several odd mechanics, but at its core is a pretty simple FE overall that places its difficulty more in gimmicks and the AI being somewhat smart with their weaker units. The game gives you several gamebreaking possibilities and the fact that pretty much the entire cast can become godly thanks to scrolls.

I'd easily rank FE6 HM, FE10 HM heck maybe even FE10 Normal Mode, FE11 H2-5, FE12 Maniac/Lunatic and heck even FE13's easily abuseable lunatic mode above it in terms of difficulty. Thats only mentioning a few games and modes!

So why do people keep insisting that Thracia is the hardest game ever? I'm beginning to think alot of people who say this, simply haven't played the game or they are confusing difficulty for BS moves that can be negated on replaying the game. Or maybe simply its older reputation just became too infamous because we all sucked at FE back in the day.

I will give the Manster chapters a bit of difficulty cred though, among a few other chapters.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Jedi

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

FE5 isn't a hard game (except chapter 4-5 + 22), because the stats of the enemies suck.

However the strange RNG and the fact that guaranteed hits and misses don't exist, make this game artifically harder than it actually is. In my run 99% missed at least a dozen times and I was get hit with 1% three times.

And there are a few chapters, which are just unfair for first time players like 9 + 24x.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Mister IceTeaPeach

[Topazd]

The game creates it's difficulty in a manner very different to other titles, which in turn makes the game that much less intuitive. There is a not insignificant learning curve even for players familiar with other FEs.

And obviously first impressions linger on most persistently. I wouldn't be surprised if many people opted to not even try the game after their first attempt went horridly wrong and thus insist it is the hardest game in the series.

[Nobody]

I've never played Thracia, but I struggle to believe it's easier than H2 and H3 on Shadow Dragon. Those two difficulties are extremely easy. I actually find it hard to believe it's easier than H4 either, but I guess I can see it being true.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Hittist Little Thigh

[Jose_Darkeye]

Well, thracia is hard for many players because not all are very good at strategiseing and thracia having only one difficulty (witch i think is normal, for the games logic at least) thus resulting at people calling it hard. I personally think it is quite hard, thats the fun about it and if a hard mode was implemented, THEN i'd like to see people calling it not hard.

[secondworld]

So the game isn't as difficult once you've played it and know what you're doing? Doesn't that apply to all FE games? I usually have to put more thought into FE5 even on repeat playthroughs than most games, including FE6 HM which I'm playing currently, so I'd rank its difficulty fairly high personally.

I do agree that it's not the most difficult though, not when more recent games exist with their highest difficulty modes.

[Jedi]

The game creates it's difficulty in a manner very different to other titles, which in turn makes the game that much less intuitive. There is a not insignificant learning curve even for players familiar with other FEs.

And obviously first impressions linger on most persistently. I wouldn't be surprised if many people opted to not even try the game after their first attempt went horridly wrong and thus insist it is the hardest game in the series.

Yeah, I think its more the first impressions. Like don't get me wrong I like Thracia quite a bit, I just roll my eyes when everytime a new game comes out, that someone states it may be harder then Thracia, like its an odd standard in my opinion.

I've never played Thracia, but I struggle to believe it's easier than H2 and H3 on Shadow Dragon. Those two difficulties are extremely easy. I actually find it hard to believe it's easier than H4 either, but I guess I can see it being true.

Shadow Dragon has quite a bit more emphasis on stats, its harder to have a fully good team then in Thracia imo, and its harder to solo as well if you're going from that approach.

Well, thracia is hard for many players because not all are very good at strategiseing and thracia having only one difficulty (witch i think is normal, for the games logic at least) thus resulting at people calling it hard. I personally think it is quite hard, thats the fun about it and if a hard mode was implemented, THEN i'd like to see people calling it not hard.

Well TECHNICALLY it has 2, if you count the hidden Elite mode which grants your units all the Elite/Paragon skill. I don't know if that counts as a full on difficulty though, and thats fine you find it hard. I'm just saying its not the hardest game out there in terms of Fire Emblem personally.

And well there is Super Thracia which is basically Kaizo FE. Actually you got me to thinking about how a proper Hard Mode would be handled thanks.

So the game isn't as difficult once you've played it and know what you're doing? Doesn't that apply to all FE games? I usually have to put more thought into FE5 even on repeat playthroughs than most games, including FE6 HM which I'm playing currently, so I'd rank its difficulty fairly high personally.

I do agree that it's not the most difficult though, not when more recent games exist with their highest difficulty modes.

Its true what you say, but overall I feel that once you know what you're doing in Thracia its quite a bit easier then most FE's. Typically I find myself thinking more on FE6 HM and the other modes I mentioned on repeat playthroughs.

[Jave]

FE5 is hard as hell if you're playing it completely blind. It's such a trollish game that I wonder how many people gave up on it the first time around (particularly all those people who let Leif escape first on Ch.4).

Once you know everything about it it's probably one of the easiest in the series. The game is so easy to break it's not even funny.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Jave

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Once you know everything about it it's probably one of the easiest in the series. The game is so easy to break it's not even funny.

There are still lots of chapters, where your units easily can die like in chapter 5.

I totally agree that in FE5 the difference between first and second playthrough is the largest, because you know the tricks how to beat this chapter in an easy way.

However Imo FE5 is the most luckbased game in the entire series because of the different RNG. It happens so often to lose an unit due to a very low hitrate by an enemy.

[Jedi]

There are still lots of chapters, where your units easily can die like in chapter 5.

I totally agree that in FE5 the difference between first and second playthrough is the largest, because you know the tricks how to beat this chapter in an easy way.

However Imo FE5 is the most luckbased game in the entire series because of the different RNG. It happens so often to lose an unit due to a very low hitrate by an enemy.

It's 1 RN like every game before it though. Not really that different persay.

[Lord Raven]

It's not just that it's 1 RN, it's that critical hits cap at 20% before PCC kicks in (so no high or low chance criticals - just a decent chance at best and then PCC makes it weirder). It's also the fact that you can't go below 1 Hit or above 99 hit, which makes the RN act really wonky. The hoards of enemies towards your great-but-not-necessarily-immortal characters makes it worse.

I'd also like to note status staves, which last the entire chapter, have a pretty good hit rate, and affect characters who have lower magic. Random shit like a fog of war chapter with a thief staff using mage, and also dismounting which actually nerfs some of your offense in the indoor chapters. Without Stamina drinks you have to deal with fatigue (although yeah they're buyable) and it's just very counterintuitive to other FE games because of the capture mechanic.

It's definitely not a game that's accessible to FE newbies and even relatively intermediate players. Players like us who have been playing this shit for years will view it differently than someone who hasn't played it. Sure, Lunatic tends to be a lot harder, but the difficulty there is relatively straightforward in nature.

I always tend to correct people when they bring up difficulty comparable to Thracia as well, because the way it approaches difficulty is so much different from other games. People also don't tend to be very good at FE games either, believe it or not, and FE5's not-so-straightforward methods of achieving difficulty and tedium can be troubling for someone that's only played the relatively simplistically designed (yet still difficult) FE12/13 Lunatic modes. Because raw stats don't win you chapters in Thracia.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Anouleth]

It's 1 RN like every game before it though. Not really that different persay.

Also move growths, movement stars, enemies with gratuitous amounts of authority stars, heal staves that can miss, large amounts of status staves and hit rate capped at 99%.

[Jedi]

It's not just that it's 1 RN, it's that critical hits cap at 20% before PCC kicks in (so no high or low chance criticals - just a decent chance at best and then PCC makes it weirder). It's also the fact that you can't go below 1 Hit or above 99 hit, which makes the RN act really wonky. The hoards of enemies towards your great-but-not-necessarily-immortal characters makes it worse.

I'd also like to note status staves, which last the entire chapter, have a pretty good hit rate, and affect characters who have lower magic. Random shit like a fog of war chapter with a thief staff using mage, and also dismounting which actually nerfs some of your offense in the indoor chapters. Without Stamina drinks you have to deal with fatigue (although yeah they're buyable) and it's just very counterintuitive to other FE games because of the capture mechanic.

It's definitely not a game that's accessible to FE newbies and even relatively intermediate players. Players like us who have been playing this shit for years will view it differently than someone who hasn't played it. Sure, Lunatic tends to be a lot harder, but the difficulty there is relatively straightforward in nature.

I always tend to correct people when they bring up difficulty comparable to Thracia as well, because the way it approaches difficulty is so much different from other games. People also don't tend to be very good at FE games either, believe it or not, and FE5's not-so-straightforward methods of achieving difficulty and tedium can be troubling for someone that's only played the relatively simplistically designed (yet still difficult) FE12/13 Lunatic modes. Because raw stats don't win you chapters in Thracia.

I guess the way I started off the thread was on the wrong footing, it should have been more "Thracia does difficulty differently and is an odd standard for people to go by". Yeah I agree with all your points.

Also move growths, movement stars, enemies with gratuitous amounts of authority stars, heal staves that can miss, large amounts of status staves and hit rate capped at 99%.

Yes, I should have expounded on that haha sorry. It does have its fair share of making things harder then they seem, and as has been brought up. It approaches difficulty differently and I guess when I first made the thread I wasn't thinking about that exactly. I still feel its an odd standard despite all these things though.

[Lord Raven]

The issue here is that people don't realize that difficulty isn't always a spectrum. It's all about style, strengths, and weaknesses.

[Phantom037]

those other games op mentioned are harder, but fe5 hates you more, so it sticks out a lot more than the others

[Tamanoir]

It's not just that it's 1 RN, it's that critical hits cap at 20% before PCC kicks in (so no high or low chance criticals - just a decent chance at best and then PCC makes it weirder). It's also the fact that you can't go below 1 Hit or above 99 hit, which makes the RN act really wonky. The hoards of enemies towards your great-but-not-necessarily-immortal characters makes it worse.

I'd also like to note status staves, which last the entire chapter, have a pretty good hit rate, and affect characters who have lower magic. Random shit like a fog of war chapter with a thief staff using mage, and also dismounting which actually nerfs some of your offense in the indoor chapters. Without Stamina drinks you have to deal with fatigue (although yeah they're buyable) and it's just very counterintuitive to other FE games because of the capture mechanic.

It's definitely not a game that's accessible to FE newbies and even relatively intermediate players. Players like us who have been playing this shit for years will view it differently than someone who hasn't played it. Sure, Lunatic tends to be a lot harder, but the difficulty there is relatively straightforward in nature.

I always tend to correct people when they bring up difficulty comparable to Thracia as well, because the way it approaches difficulty is so much different from other games. People also don't tend to be very good at FE games either, believe it or not, and FE5's not-so-straightforward methods of achieving difficulty and tedium can be troubling for someone that's only played the relatively simplistically designed (yet still difficult) FE12/13 Lunatic modes. Because raw stats don't win you chapters in Thracia.

There's also the fact that you can do exactly the same thing and have a completely different result,, if memory serves.

Something that doesn't happens in all the others as far as I know.

those other games op mentioned are harder, but fe5 hates you more, so it sticks out a lot more than the others

I think another point that may makes seems FE5 harder than it is, is his general atmosphere :

Leif and co are fleeing all throughout the game against impossible odds, with no opportunity to rest (Fatigue system.).

The gameplay and the story are so perfectly linked it adds to the general feeling of the game.

You don't have true moment of victory, epicness i the story. Victories are often bitterseet.

And you have the "Near Defeat" Music you'll hear quite often in your first playthrough.

[DarthMikey]

It's not just that it's 1 RN, it's that critical hits cap at 20% before PCC kicks in (so no high or low chance criticals - just a decent chance at best and then PCC makes it weirder). It's also the fact that you can't go below 1 Hit or above 99 hit, which makes the RN act really wonky. The hoards of enemies towards your great-but-not-necessarily-immortal characters makes it worse.

I'd also like to note status staves, which last the entire chapter, have a pretty good hit rate, and affect characters who have lower magic. Random shit like a fog of war chapter with a thief staff using mage, and also dismounting which actually nerfs some of your offense in the indoor chapters. Without Stamina drinks you have to deal with fatigue (although yeah they're buyable) and it's just very counterintuitive to other FE games because of the capture mechanic.

It's definitely not a game that's accessible to FE newbies and even relatively intermediate players. Players like us who have been playing this shit for years will view it differently than someone who hasn't played it. Sure, Lunatic tends to be a lot harder, but the difficulty there is relatively straightforward in nature.

I always tend to correct people when they bring up difficulty comparable to Thracia as well, because the way it approaches difficulty is so much different from other games. People also don't tend to be very good at FE games either, believe it or not, and FE5's not-so-straightforward methods of achieving difficulty and tedium can be troubling for someone that's only played the relatively simplistically designed (yet still difficult) FE12/13 Lunatic modes. Because raw stats don't win you chapters in Thracia.

Yeah, I think this sums up my opinions on this. FE5 is much sneakier in the way it challenges you than the higher difficulty modes of the recent games. Objectively, it's probably easier than FE12/13 Lunatic, or even FE11 H5, but the mechanics work a lot different in a lot of ways so it's kind of difficult to compare. It's like a completely different set of rules against the difficulty of other games in the series.

[Jedi]

Yeah, I think this sums up my opinions on this. FE5 is much sneakier in the way it challenges you than the higher difficulty modes of the recent games. Objectively, it's probably easier than FE12/13 Lunatic, or even FE11 H5, but the mechanics work a lot different in a lot of ways so it's kind of difficult to compare. It's like a completely different set of rules against the difficulty of other games in the series.

Basically this yeah, its this reason I find it an odd "standard" of difficulty when no other FE has ever done it.

[Baldrick]

I think Thracia is considered the standard because it's pretty much the only difficulty level. The various Lunatic modes are hard, but if you're having trouble with them, you can try an easier mode. Thracia only has Elite mode, which doesn't even help a blind player much since it's not a stat-based difficulty.

[X-Naut]

The menus are also very disorienting for non-native players, what with Wait topping the command list outside of Attack and Seize, B button exiting not applying to the Inventory prep screen, and deployment positions requiring an unreasonable amount of foresight to control.

[Precision]

I think that the game can be incredibly unfair in the manster escape section, but that is mostly because the characters given to you then are not exceptionally strong yet. Other than than that, the game loosens up as your character use the scrolls to increase their growth rates.

[sine nomine]

FE5 is extremely "fair" as it gives you the tools to achieve victory with extremely high reliability; many players may complain that they rely on variable RNG, but that is only because they neglect various gameplay mechanics. E.g. there's no reason you should ever risk being criticaled in FE5. The only thing I dislike is the 99% accuracy cap (the 1% minimum is totally fine). By the way, although there are plenty of surprises in store for first-time players, I find the game offers time and resources to allow the player to scramble and adapt even in a blind playthrough.

I think a lot of the people who find FE5 hard and claim it's unfair (or whatever) are people who aren't really interested in tactics and just want their army to crush through the opposing forces with minimal thought required. Perhaps that sort of strategy doesn't work as well in FE5 than in other games. So maybe FE5 is difficult in the sense that it punishes the player for having no idea what they're doing. I'd say FE5 is difficult in the sense that the game requires more thought to figure out optimal tactics for each chapter than other FE games. Because of the wide variety of missions and numerous game mechanics in FE5, there's many options to cover. You might not restart at all in a blind FE5 playthrough and restart several times in (for example) a blind FE13 lunatic+ playthrough, but I don't FE13 lunatic+ to be very tactically challenging; optimal solutions are relatively simple to discern.

Rather than saying FE5 is 'difficult' every time it's brought up, I'd prefer if people talked about how the level design is amazing.

[Gomez_Addams]

FE5 is extremely "fair" as it gives you the tools to achieve victory with extremely high reliability; many players may complain that they rely on variable RNG, but that is only because they neglect various gameplay mechanics. E.g. there's no reason you should ever risk being criticaled in FE5. The only thing I dislike is the 99% accuracy cap (the 1% minimum is totally fine). By the way, although there are plenty of surprises in store for first-time players, I find the game offers time and resources to allow the player to scramble and adapt even in a blind playthrough.

I think a lot of the people who find FE5 hard and claim it's unfair (or whatever) are people who aren't really interested in tactics and just want their army to crush through the opposing forces with minimal thought required. Perhaps that sort of strategy doesn't work as well in FE5 than in other games. So maybe FE5 is difficult in the sense that it punishes the player for having no idea what they're doing. I'd say FE5 is difficult in the sense that the game requires more thought to figure out optimal tactics for each chapter than other FE games. Because of the wide variety of missions and numerous game mechanics in FE5, there's many options to cover. You might not restart at all in a blind FE5 playthrough and restart several times in (for example) a blind FE13 lunatic+ playthrough, but I don't FE13 lunatic+ to be very tactically challenging; optimal solutions are relatively simple to discern.

Rather than saying FE5 is 'difficult' every time it's brought up, I'd prefer if people talked about how the level design is amazing.

I think FE5 has too many "gotcha" moments to be considered fair.

[Jave]

Rather than saying FE5 is 'difficult' every time it's brought up, I'd prefer if people talked about how the level design is amazing.

Ch.24x is the worst designed level ever in the series.

[dondon151]

fyi chapter 24x's warp tiles don't work as long as you don't use the wait command on them. ending your turn any other way is fine and will not trigger them.

you kind of have to know that or figure that out in order to apply it, but isn't that sort of what a strategy game is all about anyway