Dunal

Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn ReDux (v0.8.72 CH 2-2)

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28 minutes ago, Renigade said:

So we're clear the normal mode included is regular normal mode and not pseudo hard mode normal mode? Are you still planning on doing a pseudo hard mode normal mode or was that more of an "eventually it might happen" kinda deal?

No rush either way, just curious.

The difficulty is slightly higher than the original (for part 1) past around 1-4. Before then it's a bit easier just by virtue of your mages being outside of 1RKO range and a few other factors (Nolan not getting doubled with a steel axe, Edward a lot more likely to remain in doubling range etc...). It's similar to ReDux in that regard, but not really the same type of difficulty (maps are still in their original form).

Chances are I'm not going to make a separate version (I've instead made some additional scaling adjustments to the base patch) since there isn't any meaningful way to raise the difficulty further (during certain parts of the game) without actual changes to each map. Therefore, If I make some adjustments to the difficulty curve itself then that will be sufficient enough. Unit/class balance also contributes to that.

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48 minutes ago, Mr. Mister said:

You'd confuse a bit fewer people if you kept the .ppf extension to the patch files :P

Fixed. Not sure why PPF-Studio automatically removes the extension. Something I've overlooked more than once..

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This is amazing, thank you Dunal: I wanted to play RD since forever and now with this it will be a thing

 

i presume you will fix stuff like Mist's florete being magic based instead of strength 

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@Dunal I just got through part 1 of the rebalance and it certainly is a vast improvement over the original. Would you consider changing the master seals to 2500 gps?  I think 1000 is too inexpensive. Also, I think the Black Knight would be better balanced with 5 pts cut from each stat and 5 pts reduced from his hps.  I do really like that you can use lances with him though.  Everything else seems pretty good. 

Trying to play Part 2 results in non-recoverable read errors.

Edited by grinus

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11 hours ago, grinus said:

@Dunal I just got through part 1 of the rebalance and it certainly is a vast improvement over the original. Would you consider changing the master seals to 2500 gps?  I think 1000 is too inexpensive. Also, I think the Black Knight would be better balanced with 5 pts cut from each stat and 5 pts reduced from his hps.  I do really like that you can use lances with him though.  Everything else seems pretty good. 

Trying to play Part 2 results in non-recoverable read errors.

Regarding the Black Knight, I doubt those changes would have any impact since unless he's nerfed to the point where he cannot solo (like in ReDux) in 1-E then that won't really change him (you're still fighting tier 1 units keep in mind). I otherwise left him intact because it's true to the original game and his part 4 incarnation (and no real reason to arbitrarily lower his stats if it's not significant like in ReDux).

For master seals, I don't really think that freedom to early-promote is inherently a bad thing when you consider how that affects the game (aside from skipping level 21 itself). The Dawn Brigade need any level acceleration they can get. And if you're buying master seals to early promote (implying that you're promoting more units than free master seals you are receiving) then increasing their cost would only be penalising using a larger roster of units as opposed to low-manning. By being cheap, it means that you can at least promote everyone for part 3 and have them contribute. Units also benefit far less from auto-promoting since stat caps are high in tier 1 (standard FE fare of 20 in most stats) so you're potentially losing stats long-term in order to do so. By making them less accessible you're essentially nerfing the less optimal style of play (for example, leaving Leonardo as an unpromoted level ~10-15 scrub because you can't afford him a master seal). If anything I'd add a base panel option under 'manage' to freely promote units if that were easy to implement. Master seals having a cost at all is just an illusion of value, aside from the short term power boost in early/mid part 1 (which can't be bought at that point anyway).

Appreciate the feedback nonetheless. That is just my reasoning behind why I have/haven't changed those things in particular.

Part 2 isn't available yet. It will come in 2-3 days.

 

 

Speaking of low-manning I've been thinking of doing some scaling changes to ReDux, mostly in regards to SPD/AS (where growths/bases/promos etc... are reduced and scale less with EXP/investment). This would be beneficial to the game by making it so under-levelled units are faster and over-levelled ones are slower in relation to how they are now. But relatively speaking, anyone with moderate investment would remain around the game. Obviously enemies would be impacted the exact same way.

It's the same with how the DEF stat functions currently, where a ~50% growth is on the very high end and even ~30% is an okay growth. The variation becomes lower between units. In the context of SPD, it would still mean that an average Jill will double most enemies, but extra investment won't suddenly make her double swordmasters for instance. The reverse being true for units like Aran being under-levelled where he'd be less likely to get doubled. 

It essentially just means that SPD scales less with EXP investment. 

 

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I dunno about further scaling down SPD; I'd still like having to plan for the enemy fast units (not just swordmasters, but also pegasiand even some cavaliers) to double mybelow-average Spd units and laugh at their puny attacks.

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13 minutes ago, Mr. Mister said:

I dunno about further scaling down SPD; I'd still like having to plan for the enemy fast units (not just swordmasters, but also pegasiand even some cavaliers) to double mybelow-average Spd units and laugh at their puny attacks.

That's not really being affected though. Pegasus/Swordmasters etc... would still be doubling your low/mid SPD units. The difference is that units would less likely to be SPD blessed (or have way higher SPD due to being over-levelled) to either not get doubled by them, or  for someone like Jill/Sothe to start doubling them. Each class/unit still has their own tier of SPD, but due to lower growth, it means that EXP/promotion will have less of an impact on how units deviate from those. When I mentioned Aran before, that was referencing being doubled by Tigers or other Halberdiers by being under-levelled or SPD screwed. But his interaction with high SPD classes shouldn't change.

Upon reflection it might even be something that's more of an issue currently than it is in some other FEs. SPD growth/scaling is higher than it is in say, the GBA games and EXP amounts are higher than the original FE10 for the most part (at least for the DB/Crimeans) so it's something worth looking into.

Edited by Dunal

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Well, I do like having two or three (temporarily) SPD-blessed units per playthrough, considering there's bound to be the same amount of SPD-screwed units per playthrough. It keeps thigns exciting. Also keep in mind that mages are very dependant on STR procs for leveling up their AS on mid-rank tomes and above, so that they are only trly AS-screwed if they are both Str-screwed and non-SPD-blessed, so the chances of them being SPD-blessed mitigates it, while still not elevating them into the next SPD-tier.

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If a unit like Jill is in danger of doubling Swordmasters can't you just make her speed cap lower so that she never does? And unless I'm mistaken couldn't a higher emphasis on the speed stat be a good thing for promotion if the growth rates are gonna be so low (seeing as unlike growths promo bonuses aren't random) so for example couldn't you make it so that Aran's base speed + promo bonuses won't ever get doubled by Part 3 Tigers even if his base speed - promo bonuses would?

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17 hours ago, Mr. Mister said:

Well, I do like having two or three (temporarily) SPD-blessed units per playthrough, considering there's bound to be the same amount of SPD-screwed units per playthrough. It keeps thigns exciting. Also keep in mind that mages are very dependant on STR procs for leveling up their AS on mid-rank tomes and above, so that they are only trly AS-screwed if they are both Str-screwed and non-SPD-blessed, so the chances of them being SPD-blessed mitigates it, while still not elevating them into the next SPD-tier.

I mean, that possibility isn't being removed entirely (we're talking lowering AS scaling to be more in line with GBA FE or slightly lower than that). It's more about just making AS scale more slowly and close the gap between AS on units as a whole, so that EXP is less of a factor on whether a unit doubles/gets doubled (your units are less pressured to keep up with the enemy's SPD since they also scale more slowly). On the plus side for faster units, it means that they remain doubling for longer with less investment (base stats would have more relevance than before). A base level Jill would now be able to double some enemies in 1-E, just on the flip side, she would require an insane about of investment (and/or speedwings) to double fast enemies. In the current release, Jill can gain 3 points of SPD in just 4 levels (on average). This would be changed to 6 levels with a ~50% growth. SPD values/growths would be in-line with the DEF stat.

16 hours ago, Renigade said:

If a unit like Jill is in danger of doubling Swordmasters can't you just make her speed cap lower so that she never does? And unless I'm mistaken couldn't a higher emphasis on the speed stat be a good thing for promotion if the growth rates are gonna be so low (seeing as unlike growths promo bonuses aren't random) so for example couldn't you make it so that Aran's base speed + promo bonuses won't ever get doubled by Part 3 Tigers even if his base speed - promo bonuses would?

Caps alone doesn't really do anything especially early on after promotion, and will just make it so units will cap-ram their SPD fast (due to growth). That doesn't really prevent someone like Jill doubling fast units in 1-E since your units would be freshly promoted at this stage (and assuming her cap would be reduced to ~26 or something). Then the secondary problem to that would be being able to BEXP other stats quickly on the virtue of SPD capping earlier. Of course, caps would be changing as well. But lowering those without any other changes would cause more scaling issues than it solves.

Promotion gains is a separate topic altogether since they define the power difference between pre and post promotion and not much else. For instance, if promotion bonuses are globally increased by 1, then base stats for all tier 2 enemies (or playable units) are also logically increased by 1 so nothing changes. The only actual difference this makes is the encouragement of an early promotion or the necessity of promotion to remain inside/outside doubling range. I do think that this needs to exist in some form since opportunity costs for promotion need to play a factor (as in, do you wait for a unit to cap their T1 SPD, or promote early to get that boost?) on certain units.

1 hour ago, Maggonis said:

I just downloaded this mod 2 weeks ago did a lot Change? Would it help to replay it again? 

Played until 2-2 like a week ago

Current release of ReDux hasn't changed. There is however a much more minimalistic balance patch released recently for Part 1, which will update very frequently as I test through it. Feel free to check it out.  Full release should be within the next week or two.

Edited by Dunal

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I'm going to try and test out the minimalist balance patch over the weekend when I have time. Is it meant to be played with transfers, or should I go into the game without transfer bonuses?

Some thoughts ahead of time though. You definitely don't have to do any or all of this, I'm just putting down my thoughts on what I'd like to see.

* Would it be possible to get a more comprehensive change list? Some of the stuff I can work around, such as the changed bases (I can just wait until I recruit the unit and look at their bases then), but other stuff is a bit harder to figure out. I'm seeing stuff like "Stat caps tweaked for most T2 & T3 classes", but that doesn't really tell me what caps were changed exactly and what the new values are. This is especially important because caps are a really big factor in determining late game performance, and in order to actually discover the new stat caps I would have to play through the game multiple times.

* This might not be true to the goal of keeping the changes minimalist, but have you put any thought into sharpening the distinction between enemy classes by tweaking their bases/growths? Enemy units in this game, regardless of class, scale pretty similarly in terms of damage, defensive stats, and AS, with few exceptions. Base RD isn't really like the GBA FE games, where things like AS and defenses vary wildly between enemies. In RD for the most part, if your unit reaches the threshold where it can ORKO one class, or survive a few rounds of combat with one class, it can probably do the same for most other classes. For example, enemy Halberds and Warriors are very similar statistically. Snipers are as well, with the only real distinction being that they are locked to 2 range. Swordmasters are slightly faster and weaker defensively, but not significantly weaker defensively. Generals are a bit bulkier, but as a supposedly "slow" class they aren't even that much behind all other enemy units (on most maps they're only behind the other enemies by 1-2 AS, and sometimes they're equal in terms of AS).

* I'm not even sure how easy/possible this would be to hack, but I think this would be a decent quality of life change. Would it be possible to adjust the math on finding hidden items? Hidden items play a much bigger role in RD than they do in most other games (usually there is only one late game hidden item chapter), and they are sometimes incredibly frustrating to find. I think it would be good to boost the find rate on hidden items in general, or at the very least give thieves a 100% chance to find hidden items.

* I'd like to see WEXP boosted on tomes. WEXP is just generally lower for tomes than it is for weapons. Iron weapons, your basic Part 1 stuff, give 2 WEXP, whereas basic tomes like Fire give 1 WEXP. Similarly Steel weapons give 3 WEXP, whereas your mid game tomes like Elfire give 2 WEXP. In addition, since mages are squishy and tend to die in two or three hits, they generally have limited enemy phase, which means they just get to attack less often than most physical units. I know that Fire giving 1 WEXP is in some sense "consistent", because it is an E rank tome and Bronze weapons are E rank weapons that give 1 WEXP, but nobody actually buys Bronze weapons, so Fire is much more comparable to Iron weapons, whereas Elfire should be on the same tier as Steel weapons. (Also, for some reason the weapon ranks on thunder tomes are inconsistent with the rest of the tomes.) All this adds up to mean that mages have a much harder time boosting weapon rank than frontline classes, which is actually a noticeable negative for mages that join with poor weapon ranks (such as Micaiah, Ilyana, and especially Laura).

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3 hours ago, Silly said:

Some thoughts ahead of time though. You definitely don't have to do any or all of this, I'm just putting down my thoughts on what I'd like to see.

Pretty much all of those are good suggestions. Some of which I've overlooked for the mini-patch so far. Mostly because a lot of the changes were done for it before I'd implemented them in ReDux (such as hidden items), so these changes you've listed would be worth including as well.

 

3 hours ago, Silly said:

but have you put any thought into sharpening the distinction between enemy classes by tweaking their bases/growths?

This is already being done, particularly for any class past tier 1. I'll agree that diversity in classes isn't that great in FE10, so much like ReDux, there will be changes especially for SPD/AS. 

This also applies to some playable units as well. For example, Calill now has the base/growth to double consistently from base level, but I've reduced her SKL moderately so she also has be selective in enemy targeting (or tome use) to secure hits. Which at least makes her more interesting than just "Soren/Ilyana but actually having SPD". Things aren't as drastic as in ReDux in this regard but it does means that some of the lesser units from the original haven't just been flat buffed in some cases (which can lead to just homogenising units).

With that said, the scope of it is a bit higher than originally intended, since I'm making further tweaks as I play through it.

3 hours ago, Silly said:

Would it be possible to adjust the math on finding hidden items?

Yeah this will be boosted for the next update. Like in ReDux I'll make it so the find rate is further boosted by good Biorhythm, with a global % increase along with that.

 

3 hours ago, Silly said:

I'd like to see WEXP boosted on tomes.

E tomes are increased to 2 currently but a global increase of 1 (for the rest of them) should be fine on top of that. 

 

3 hours ago, Silly said:

Would it be possible to get a more comprehensive change list?

A full change-log will be provided when the patch is complete.

In terms of caps, they have been changed to be appropriate to each unit's growths (which aren't changed too much). And I've made an attempt to tune caps so that each class in the lategame are suitably good (obvious candidates such as Bishops/Gold Knights being improved overall).

Edited by Dunal

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