Dunal

Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn ReDux

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Sure, I just felt that the movement that get is worth having inferior caps to say Sentinels. Worse? Definitely, but canto is that powerful of an ability that they deserve to not have super stats. The issue with Gold Knights is that they don't have enough speed and they don't have enough of the other stats to compensate. Silver females had *enough* speed to do things, but not enough.

Being on a horse in Part 4 is not exactly a good thing. And endgame maps are compacted enough where movement isn't a huge factor.

Silver Knights did not have good DEF and RES. Quite bad actually considering Fiona's growths. Other stats were okay I suppose.

Sort of? Is Zihark only expected to gain 2 levels over the course of the game from where he joins? If yes, then then she's fine (I'd argue Zihark is in trouble then. He will have speed and adept over her really as swords have less might than lances so he'll be doing about the same damage to her per hit, and less when fighting at WTD ). If no, then she's not fine.

Zihark is fine yes, because he's immediately great and joins a couple of maps before Fiona catches up to speed. He also requires no resources to be good. His stat potential is lower than others but the fact that he's by default great is a small price to pay.

And this argument is a bit conflicting. So if Fiona is a level 10 Tier 2 (which I'd imagine would make her better than Zihark) That's good, but Fiona being comparable to base Zihark when promoting with some BEXP and a master seal isn't (and a couple maps later no less)? Which is it?

I suppose, I just felt the issue if Fiona herself. If she joined when Nolan had, it wouldn't be so bad. I haven't played Part 1, so we'll see how it works in practice.
So long as Fiona is useful in the maps she appears then I don't see the problem. She's not amazing in 1-7, but a few levels and a master deal makes her good in 1-E.
Edward isn't exactly that great either for the first few maps he's in. Neither is Soren in the original game. Nor Nephenee. Units don't have absolutely have to be incredible the first time you have them. And therefore Fiona does not need to be 1RKOing everything at base. It's not like she needs a huge amount of investment either -- as much as you'd expect for a tier 1 unit.
Her base stats actually match what a level ~14 unit should be, not 10. She's actually quite on par with everyone else. Statistically Jill wouldn't be too much better at a much higher level. And she hasn't really been changed much at all.
I'm not sure I understand the first part.

Why not? In part 4, there's three different groups, and pretty much everyone you choose regarding those three groups are deploy-able. Are they not?

The whole point I've been trying to make with part 1 is viably having the entire Dawn Brigade promote at around LV14-16, so they are all usable in the long term. They're no longer have to be "optional". You don't need to low-man with a few units. This principle is applied throughout the whole game. Ideally that's now the situation.

In part 4 no-one needs to be left out unless they are genuinely neglected or have just had poor level ups. Sure, some units may need a Master Crown prematurely just to keep up, but should still be abel to contribute as a result, if only a little.

Yeah, it seems I did. It seems we both did.

I was saying that Rhys has a strength while Mist really didn't outside of 1 movement and being able to take a hit (but neither should be attacked is what I was saying). High magic for him works.

That's some crazy movement. Does she have the most?

I see. Yeah, that makes sense. Less third tiers going around too.

Mist will have a lot more STR and DEF, that's for sure.

10 movement isn't too crazy when you consider some of the older games. Non-mounted = 7. Mounted = 10.

Silver/Gold/Seraph knights also have 10 movement. Wyverns are still 9 though.

Leanne also has 10 movement transformed.

Edited by DLuna

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This is absolutely on my list of hacks to LP. I just have to wait a little since I'm about to finish my LP of vanilla RD, but considering your previous work and how much I loved Fe6 ReDux, this is a must play!

Edited by Mangs

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I just released an alternative patch.

This should work for people who received an error before, as it's based on a different version of the ROM. It's a much larger patch as a result.

It may well be the original patch is for the PAL version -- which was/is unintended. But if true, would explain the errors some people are receiving. That or it's the other way around perhaps.

It also includes a very minor change:

[Jarod 1-9]

- Now has a Short Spear as opposed to a Steel Greatlance.

This second patch will probably not work if the first one did though. For the next (big) update, both will obviously be affected.

Edited by DLuna

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Being on a horse in Part 4 is not exactly a good thing. And endgame maps are compacted enough where movement isn't a huge factor.

Silver Knights did not have good DEF and RES. Quite bad actually considering Fiona's growths. Other stats were okay I suppose.

I don't see how having the option to move more and canto is not a good thing. Especially with canto being a less costly skill slapped on the mounted units. Unless you plan on putting beast slaying weapons around all over the place, it's still an advantage.

I never said they did. I said they had *enough*. Factored in with the fact that Fiona could be recovering roughly 15-20+ hp per turn and she has earth affinity and Fiona's def and res are fine. Her def and res are poor for her class, but that's an issue with quite a few units in this game. Leonardo's res cap is horrible for his growths. Aran's strength, skill and defense caps are terrible for his growths. his isn't something that's just a Fiona thing either. And in the case of RD, it can be helpful for BEXP levels because they always force 3 stat ups, so capping early isn't exactly a bad thing. Especially when a standard level might result in only 1 stat going up. Silver Knight female caps are not that bad. They aren't impressive, but they aren't terrible either.

Zihark is fine yes, because he's immediately great and joins a couple of maps before Fiona catches up to speed. He also requires no resources to be good. His stat potential is lower than others but the fact that he's by default great is a small price to pay.

And this argument is a bit conflicting. So if Fiona is a level 10 Tier 2 (which I'd imagine would make her better than Zihark) That's good, but Fiona being comparable to base Zihark when promoting with some BEXP and a master seal isn't (and a couple maps later no less)? Which is it?

But this doesn't answer my question: is Zihark supposed to be around level 20/5 or not by endgame of part 1? Because he's looking pretty scrubby then in comparison to Fiona. This would mean that Zihark is pretty bad as he's not going to be able to compete with her at all in part 3. Sure, he can try to swipe some kills in 3-6, but he's still going to sag behind especially when Fiona can apparently compete because of super promotion bonuses. If 10-14/10/1 Fiona can compete with --/20/1 Zihark, there's a problem. It's not a small price to pay when the other units fork over 2k and suddenly, they are Zihark but better. That's assuming you don't even make the unit hit 20 and just straight up level up. They get a super level when they get to 21. Zihark doesn't. And assuming you balanced the DB, they shouldn't be hard to use in the first place-- which means that the units that you choose to use will actively have more EXP funneled into them. Zihark's greatness will be overshadowed in the sense that he's leveling slower and wouldn't be much better than say... Edward-- if at all with the stat revamps. The issue with Vanilla was that the DB DID have better stats over the other units for the most part with the exception of Meg and Leonardo when they were leveled up. The issue was having enough EXP to level up. There wasn't, and there were too many "good enough" units that could pass what you needed to worry about leveling the DB.

It's not conflicting. It's a question about Zihark's actual level which changes the entire outcome of how this is viewed. Let's roll with your example: Heck, we'll use average stats Fiona versus Zihark and give Zihark 2 levels for his appearance. We'll say he leveled up once for both parts of chapter 6. Fiona has +5 hp, +6 luck, +7 def, +4 res give or take. Is Fiona better than him? Certainly on a defensive level, and her skills pretty much solidify that. Zihark is lower in level, yes, but both can be focused on being used rather than giving any of them resources that a unit that is planning to be used SHOULDN'T receive. Neither unit needs to pay any price. They merely are two different units with two different stat structures and growths. One is a tank, the other is a more offensive fighter. If Zihark is expected to be 20/5 at the end of part 1, Zihark is in deep trouble. Fiona will crush him stat wise and gets super promotion bonuses, sure you might say "I'm giving them to Edward so Zihark gets the bonus as well," but Zihark's growths are... Certainly not Edward's. So Zihark's price to pay is being outshone literally 4 chapters after he joins-- possibly sooner if you really do decide to promote Edward at 16-- as that's normally the level Edward was for me at the start of endgame part 1 if I'm planning on using him, and then I promoted him after the boss was killed. But since he's supposed to be better, it might be sooner.

So long as Fiona is useful in the maps she appears then I don't see the problem. She's not amazing in 1-7, but a few levels and a master deal makes her good in 1-E.

Edward isn't exactly that great either for the first few maps he's in. Neither is Soren in the original game. Nor Nephenee. Units don't have absolutely have to be incredible the first time you have them. And therefore Fiona does not need to be 1RKOing everything at base. It's not like she needs a huge amount of investment either -- as much as you'd expect for a tier 1 unit.
Her base stats actually match what a level ~14 unit should be, not 10. She's actually quite on par with everyone else. Statistically Jill wouldn't be too much better at a much higher level. And she hasn't really been changed much at all.

The issue is that she's fighting for a deployment slot. Why would a person want to deploy a character that's worse than other characters when they could continue using the characters that are raising? With support bonuses, this gets even worse. No one wants to support Fiona because she is weaker, she's gone for 1-8, and then 1-E, a person should have a rank A support which means breaking up their support for her. Unless you plan on having someone get really bad because of their growths, it doesn't make sense to use Fiona if everyone else can pull their weight and she can't. That was the issue with Vanilla. There were too many units that would be good with resources and too many units that were good without them to even bother with the units that needed extra attention.

But Edward is forced for the first chapters. He's also your best unit in the prologue and will possibly level twice in it, which helps him. The next chapter he is literally one of two frontliners. Edward is never actually a bad unit by the time deployment slots can be competed for. He's just never your best one. Soren is not really good ever. Nor is Nephenee. No. They don't need to be incredibly useful when they first show up... Until there is a point where they are competing for deployment slots. At that point, people need to be decent. 1RKOing levels of power is not the same as "equal with all of your units"

Which just begs the question, why not make everyone have decent stats and niches in this case? There are far more classes in this one, and the caps usually force characters to be a certain strength anyways, so there's no reason to make levels and bases super arbitrary and impossible to tell how a unit is going to be without a guide. I don't know if high bases mean low growths or low leveled means high growths for a little bit of levels... Nothing. Jill shouldn't be around the same level as Fiona in terms of stats if she's higher leveled. What's the purpose?

Why not? In part 4, there's three different groups, and pretty much everyone you choose regarding those three groups are deploy-able. Are they not?

The whole point I've been trying to make with part 1 is viably having the entire Dawn Brigade promote at around LV14-16, so they are all usable in the long term. They're no longer have to be "optional". You don't need to low-man with a few units. This principle is applied throughout the whole game. Ideally that's now the situation.

In part 4 no-one needs to be left out unless they are genuinely neglected or have just had poor level ups. Sure, some units may need a Master Crown prematurely just to keep up, but should still be abel to contribute as a result, if only a little.

I don't understand it, because it's almost the same as vanilla. You made it sound as though you were going to make literally everyone deployable that you chose for each path.

But you could do that in Vanilla. You really could. Just focus less on having Sothe kill things and more on... Everyone else. Realistically, there's enough EXP to go around assuming you don't have a problem with giving people BEXP. And paragon pretty much guarantees a level up every time you kill someone. That's at least enough to get 3 units to about 20/8. It just seems like it'd be easier to make a leveling curve that has the DB characters promote naturally at the end of part 1, and then level extremely quickly off of laguz.

Which was always the case outside of failure units like Sanaki and Kurthnaga.

I'd still give it a shot because it sounds like a different playthrough, I was just curious about the shaky nature of the DB because of the scenario around them.

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I know I'm prone to asking wierd questions, but I'm just curious: is it theoretically possible to give Strike weapons different effective bonuses, like say, giving Voluk and Naliah's Strikes effective damage against felines (actually beasts, but indistinguishable unless the dogs bite each other)? And if the different ranks of a unit's Strike are treated as different weapons, can the beastlaying flag be given to only certain ranks of a single character's Strike?

I was thinking how Lyre could be improved without turning it too similar to other cats, and I suddenly I thought that she looks like the kind to spend her free time playing (slaying) birds and pegasi... a good jumper I guess?

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If people can agree with Fiona being too weak later on -- that's fine. Her base STR is a good valve for that.

However, for the sake of argument let's take a look at Fiona's 10/1 stats for 1-7:

Fiona

HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES MOV

36 13 6 19 17 11 14 7 9

+6 HP per turn.

So... according to yourself, these stats are not good enough at all to compete with the rest of your army in 1-7 for a deployment slot. Surely she can't complete with someone like Edward, and she can't be given any resources whatsoever. So by that logic, let's just make her not require a master seal and buff her stats more.

HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES MOV

39 15 8 20 19 13 15 8 9

+8 HP per turn.

Great! So now she's "balanced" right?

Wait... She's now almost strictly better than Zihark. So... let's buff Zihark!

Wait. So if we buff Zihark, we would need to buff Edward. After all, we don't want to make Zihark strictly better right?

Okay, so we've buffed Edward, but that just makes him better compared to all other tier 1s. Let's buff everyone then!

We'll also need make Master Seals cost 0 gold because Fiona is now a Tier 2 for free so why does everyone else need to pay?

... You get where I'm going with this?

And you're also worried about Zihark it seems. But you want Fiona to be buffed. Though you also don't want Zihark to be outclassed (That is conflicting!). So do we buff Zihark then? But Edward is already balanced against him and Zihark comes a great unit with no investment needed.

The entire basis of this argument was that Fiona's 10/1 stats aren't good enough and she still needs changing. But there's also concern now that Zihark can't compare to them?

So do both Fiona and Zihark need to be buffed or something? Who are we comparing them to now? Edward? Meg?

Also, Level 5 Zihark is for the start of endgame. He'll probably be 7 or 8 by the end of 1-F. After all, all enemies are promoted at around level 3-5.

I don't understand it, because it's almost the same as vanilla. You made it sound as though you were going to make literally everyone deployable that you chose for each path.

I disagree. There are plenty of units who just aren't that usable at all, especially in hard mode. Can someone like Makalov feasibly be called 'good' if you don't put a huge amount of resources into him? Errr... no. There's plenty of units with the same problem.

Interestingly enough, you say that FIona is not worth putting resources into... and then argue that in the vanilla game it's plausible to put resources into everyone no matter how bad they may be.

I know I'm prone to asking wierd questions, but I'm just curious: is it theoretically possible to give Strike weapons different effective bonuses, like say, giving Voluk and Naliah's Strikes effective damage against felines (actually beasts, but indistinguishable unless the dogs bite each other)? And if the different ranks of a unit's Strike are treated as different weapons, can the beastlaying flag be given to only certain ranks of a single character's Strike?

I was thinking how Lyre could be improved without turning it too similar to other cats, and I suddenly I thought that she looks like the kind to spend her free time playing (slaying) birds and pegasi... a good jumper I guess?

Lyre can simply have a better Laguz gauge. She is currently set to gain +6 gauge per battle but lose 15 gauge per turn (this is how cats work now). That's an excellent gauge.

Yes, it is possible to tune every type of Laguz weapon (on a per-rank basis) but not per Laguz. The cats share the same weapons for instance.

Cats for instance gain +15% crit at S rank and +25% crit at SS. That's just an example of a change I've made. Lyre can't have a different weapon to Ranulf though.

For unique properties like effective damage -- that can be added too.

I'd be very much against it though just because Laguz weapons have high MT, and tripling them is pretty obscene.

Edited by DLuna

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You're still not understanding what I'm saying. But you know what? Talk is cheap. Tell you want, finish it, I'll play through it and I'll document my point and I'll give you the results so you can see what I mean.

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I think some of the concern for Fiona is about increasing her availability and usability, which is valid. It's not something met by saying "well she is good later so nope". That's a random response that doesn't address the feedback about potentially making her more available and in better maps that how she comes in vanilla.

it's your patch so whatever. if she is just a tweaked vanilla fiona I won't bother using her :)

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I think some of the concern for Fiona is about increasing her availability and usability, which is valid. It's not something met by saying "well she is good later so nope".
I'm not saying that. It's just a point that she's fantastic later. Doesn't. change the fact she's still decent early.
You're still not understanding what I'm saying.
Yes I am. You're saying Fiona is not good at 1-7. I just refuted that point? Isn't that what the entire point is? If I'm correct in saying Fiona is decent at 1-7, what point are you trying to make here? You're not even making any corrective statements "Oh Fiona needs 2 more points of base STR" "Oh Fiona needs enough speed to double everything" "Fiona needs 3 more base DEF to survive an extra hit". Rather than saying "Fiona needs to be buffed more because er.... I say so" or "She needs to be better so she's an auto deploy in 1-7". Because under any extreme efficient play, Zihark IS an auto deploy. Do we really need another one of him? She's already close to that -- zero EXP investment and already good. She becomes even better in Hard Mode because of that.
I'll do it again:
10/1 Fiona in CH1-7
HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES MOV
36 13 6 19 17 11 14 7 9
+6 HP per turn.
13/1 Edward in 1-7
HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES MOV
39 14 3 15 21 13 11 6 7
Wrath
15/1 Nolan in 1-7
HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES MOV
43 17 3 15 15 11 13 6 7
Nihil
Is Fiona really that bad with no resources? Yes or No? You really didn't answer this question. You're saying that she isn't worth the deployment slot but can you please actually argue this fact?
And I already mentioned that If Fiona does need to be buffed then her base STR are a good Valve for that (Did you read this?). There's totally a middle line between not buffing her at all and making her a LV5-10 Paladin. But for all intents and purposes she might as well be a prepromote if you want her to be. Only her STR is iffy but that can be fixed with the Silver Lance or a forge. Or an energy drop etc...
I apologize for the tangent but it seriously just seems like my point isn't getting across. You didn't bother to contest any of the valid points I made surrounding character comparison.
It's fine to argue that she might need a little bit more of a boost. That's fine. To say however that she's still bad and needs a significant change is incorrect.
I'd be interested is hearing your thoughts on Nephenee in the original game. She's not considered a bad character by any means -- average at worst. But she certainly requires time and resources to be good. Fiona is at least at that level and that's assuming you don't promote her right away. If you do, she gains enough of a boost to automatically be good by default, with good enough growths to carry her into tier 3.
Part 3 is being designed to offer more EXP to the Dawn Brigade so that issue in comparison to the mercenaries is a less relevant too.
And for what it's worth, Fiona can promote and sit on the bench until part 3 and be usable. Can Edward/Meg/Aran/Leo do that? I doubt it.
And she gets the best of both worlds by having the option not to promote and being even better come part 3. She's really flexible. You can give her a couple Blossom level ups w/ BEXP to promote her at level 12 or something -- and chances are she's going to be fantastic in 1-E.
She may have low availability and unfavorable maps at times (although honestly the indoor maps are not an issue any more with Celerity, only 3-6 is annoying for her).
What I'm saying is that she's GOOD on recruitment (with very little investment, and gets even better as the game goes on. Feel free to argue that point but I haven't seen you even mention her actual stats yet.
I bet if I just listed her as a level 3 paladin with her (amazing) promotion bonuses added to her base stats we wouldn't be having this conversation (And that would actually be a nerf to her!). I'm surprised how people think a low base level is a bad thing. "Oh a level 10 Tier 1 unit this late? Must be bad!". Sorry if that sounds patronizing but It's genuinely the point of view I'm seeing currently.
Edited by DLuna

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A few things for later on :

- Sanaki's weapon ranks should cap at S, minus maybe Light. (Won't be conflicting to give her S+ there since she is the empress of a country of light magicians)

Why? Because there's no reason to bring two Fire Magicians with one of them being forced.

- Lucia and Geoffrey should be T3.

Reason? They have sucky availability and therefore would be way better this way. You could make of Lucia someone with Bad Str but good SPD and skl, and Geoffrey with good Str but bad SPD to give them chipper status.

- Nerf T3 skills to PoR lvs. They're so broken it's amazing.

Aside from that... Maybe the Nailah nerf is too much. 28 SPD for when we get her back at P4 is far from amazing, even useless. If she gets better when she's back no problem.

I think anything else is easy to think about : Make of Sigrun a T3, buff her base or her SPD growth, nerf Reyson by making him lv10 while Leanne gets 15 and Rafiel 20 or something like that.

Edited by Nintales

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A few things for later on :

- Sanaki's weapon ranks should cap at S, minus maybe Light. (Won't be conflicting to give her S+ there since she is the empress of a country of light magicians)

Why? Because there's no reason to bring two Fire Magicians with one of them being forced.

- Lucia and Geoffrey should be T3.

Reason? They have sucky availability and therefore would be way better this way. You could make of Lucia someone with Bad Str but good SPD and skl, and Geoffrey with good Str but bad SPD to give them chipper status.

- Nerf T3 skills to PoR lvs. They're so broken it's amazing.

Aside from that... Maybe the Nailah nerf is too much. 28 SPD for when we get her back at P4 is far from amazing, even useless. If she gets better when she's back no problem.

I think anything else is easy to think about : Make of Sigrun a T3, buff her base or her SPD growth, nerf Reyson by making him lv10 while Leanne gets 15 and Rafiel 20 or something like that.

I plan on Sanaki being able to use SS for all magic types. Even dark magic perhaps.

I like the idea because she's forced into the endgame, meaning she can basically be given the leftover SS tome that no-one else can use. That niche is pretty cool.

Problem with Geoff and Lucia being tier 3 is that they suddenly become like Tormod where they're too strong when they first appear. I'm happy to just give them really good base stats for their level (Where Geoff can actually make use of his Paragon) but not too crazy. Lucia's base stats are amazing as a level 10 Tier 2, and with an instant master crown in part 4, she should be pretty good.

In retrospect the T3 skills aren't actually that broken. They're just glorified crits (depending how 'broken' that is) . I think with enemies being stronger (and tankier) then they will no longer be one-shot by them for the most part. Except for things like Astra or Rend which is x5 damage.

They just feel broken because enemies are very squishy in this game. Critical hits are fair game and skill activation rates tend to be lower than them.

Nailah is a great candidate for BEXP in part 4. She's only level 16 means she is very efficient with it. Her growths will prioritize important stats.

Sigrun being Tier 3 is fair game I suppose. That may well be the case.

I don't like the Herons being low level because the only thing it does is give them less Galdr options. In fact their level is otherwise extremely pointless. Each of them will probably only gain 5-7 levels in the entire game. So setting Rafiel to ~34 may even be the correct answer, because he'll actually be able to realistically get the final Galdr.

Otherwise, Reyson is nerfed by having a bad Laguz Gauge and worse movement than Leanne.

EDIT:

Oh and I've recorded a preview for Endgame:

https://youtu.be/0Gva9awBM0s

Not the most efficient play. But either way you can see Fiona in use and she performs very well with Pass. No-one else can have Celerity+Pass aside from Tormod.

That particular Fiona I got to level 12 with BEXP before 1-7. The gave her two levels in 1-7. Gave her an energy drop and then an additional one level of BEXP + Master seal.

That's not exactly a huge amount of resources and she became excellent.

Edited by DLuna

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If Sanaki gets all S+, you do not only destroy Ilyana's niche, but Soren's too. Unless Sanaki's caps get nerfed while theirs get buffed, they die.

Their only reason to exist is their S+ rank.

As for Geoffrey and Lucia, you can still make them T3 by making of Lucia the Speediest Trueblade with an average Str base so she fails to ORKO without the Silver Sword. Geoffrey could get a reduced speed base so he fails to OHKO without the Silver Greatlance, for him to be the tankiest SK.

The problem about FE10 BeXP is that it only ups 3 stats.

Nailah therefore will lack in domains, and will be either a glasscannon or a tank, or some weird thingy.

The problem about the T3 skills is when bosses have them. You don't know how scared you could be for Lehran to proc his T3 skills and OHKOing your pour unit.

And Luna, Colossus and Laguz skills want to have a word with you. Str*3 is not a glorified crit.

Edited by Nintales

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If Sanaki gets all S+, you do not only destroy Ilyana's niche, but Soren's too. Unless Sanaki's caps get nerfed while theirs get buffed, they die.

Their only reason to exist is their S+ rank.

This is a bad thing why? It's nice to have unit variety, you know. Having exclusive use of a spell that for all intents and purposes should not be(Rexbolt) shouldn't be considered a niche. Sanaki having Cymbeline is a niche because that's her spell. Having more than one potential SS rank user of a spell allows for some greater flexibility. (And let's not forget about our boy Bastian now) You make other units stand out in other ways as a result. Maybe Sanaki lacks something that other dedicated magic users have?

Also with regards to Lucia being T3 at base, Lucia lacks a long haired version of her Trueblade model I believe, so it'd look awkward aesthetically.

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Dude, I had an entire paragraph typed out, but it got eaten as I was typing it. Not retyping it, so I'll leave it at this:

The method you're using doesn't sound like it's solving the biggest problem with RD: the absurd leveling curves demonstrated for each team until part 4. It's not just about the DB team having higher stats or lower stats. It's about the effort required to get higher stats in conjunction to how effective there are in comparison to their higher leveled parts. The reason why I was saying "just level Fiona up," is because I'm assuming you'd fix the leveling curve so part 1 tier 1's are all pretty much or already tier 2 at the end of part 1. THEN have the handful of chapters for the DB to hit say... 20/8-20/12 to make them on par with the GMs-- I thought that was your goal on the account that you decided to lower the tier 2 unit levels for the GMs. But the more I read, the more it sounded like you weren't. I honestly don't see the point of having super promotion bonuses for the DB so they can promote at 13 or 14 in level when you could just make the curve... Have them hit level 20 at the end of part 1. Not only does that make more sense, but it doesn't specifically demand bizarre things from the player. Explain how a person that didn't have a guide would know-- oh, if I promote a unit at level 14 they'll get super bonuses? That's the sort of stuff that you want to avoid in a hack/mod because it's really counter-intuitive to playing.

Zihark was brought up because he's the definitive example of a unit for relative power. He joins both teams potentially, he starts out really good on the DB and then gets outshone by other units but still solid. On the GMs, with the same strength, he's not a particularly good unit.

Even with the whole --/1 master seal things going on for units, this does not solve this problem. The reason Fiona was mentioned is because she demonstrates that absolute WORST case of this. Horrible availability and the maps seem to go out of her way to hate her for the first couple of chapters she joins.

DB: Worst leveling curve. Lowest levels. Most of the DBers were ALREADY stronger at higher levels than the other units. The issue was keeping them up to speed with the units that not only start higher, but have longer chapters and more EXP to funnel into their units. For an example, compare the prologues of parts 1, 2, 3 and 4. Let's use say Leonardo. Let's assume that we let Leonardo kill every unit in the DB's chapters that are possible. Leonardo will not be the same level that Nephenee would be if she killed every unit in part 2 and 3. Ike would not be the same level etc.

I don't want to have to dump resources into units with my only reward to be green numbers that don't really matter in because units that didn't require these resources function just as well. And if the units that are from the DB are the best endgame units in the sense that it's worth dumping resources-- and not many as your insist on across the game, then the higher level units just sound... Bad.

I'd rather have a leveling curve where when part 4 rolls around the GMs aren't much higher in level than the DBs. None of this master sealing early and getting amazing promotion bonuses... Just... A standard leveling curve. Especially because the super promotion bonuses balanced around the notion of being 14/1 instead of 20/1 are more easily abused and encourage funneling EXP more than before. I'm going to hit 20/1 because I NOW that I'm getting 6 levels that the game clearly isn't designed around.

This is a bad thing why? It's nice to have unit variety, you know. Having exclusive use of a spell that for all intents and purposes should not be(Rexbolt) shouldn't be considered a niche. Sanaki having Cymbeline is a niche because that's her spell. Having more than one potential SS rank user of a spell allows for some greater flexibility. (And let's not forget about our boy Bastian now) You make other units stand out in other ways as a result. Maybe Sanaki lacks something that other dedicated magic users have?

It's a bad thing because it stomps on other units terf. Though I don't think it might be in this case. I'll admit that there needs to be more Thunder sages that can SS rank, but that might require some limitations on the magics. Maybe make it so sages can only learn the magic type they beat. So:

Soren and Bastian only get: Wind and Thunder

Calill and Tormod only get: Fire and Wind

Ilyana only gets: Thunder and Fire

Then allow SS ranks on either for the mages. Thus now you have 3 mages that can SS rank thunder, 4 Wind, and 3 Fire. If we throw Sanaki in there, that makes it at least four for each of them. Also, don't forget that Sanaki cannot heal, so that's something that sets her apart in the sense of being a combat mage.

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If Sanaki gets all S+, you do not only destroy Ilyana's niche, but Soren's too. Unless Sanaki's caps get nerfed while theirs get buffed, they die.

Err... huh?

You could easily say the same thing for Calill in the original game if you believe in this argument. Or Micaiah you're suggesting she should have SS light?

A unit's niche should be that they are useful throughout the whole game where they are available. Not because of some weapon. Granted, units should be balanced for endgame

Sanaki being able to use all SS weapons just means you can train and give her the magic type you are lacking another SS user for. This gives Sanaki a niche considering she's forced.

As for Geoffrey and Lucia, you can still make them T3 by making of Lucia the Speediest Trueblade with an average Str base so she fails to ORKO without the Silver Sword. Geoffrey could get a reduced speed base so he fails to OHKO without the Silver Greatlance, for him to be the tankiest SK.

Lucia/Geoff being Tier 3 doesn't magically make them better than tier 2. Worse actually because they get less EXP. Literally no difference making them a ~10 tier 2 and giving them bases that would make the tier 3 promotion bonuses make them strong in part 4.

If it does means Oscar and Mia need to have adjusted growths/stats to accommodate for awesome promotion bonuses, then so be it. That can be done.

Their only reason to exist is their S+ rank.

Or you know... being made to be useful in the entire game.

Take a look at my video of 1-E. Ilyana has a reason to exist there.

The problem about FE10 BeXP is that it only ups 3 stats.

For a Laguz that can be up to 6 stats and Nailah's HP and Luck growths can just be lowered if need be.

‚Äč2 Speed procs and Nailah's speed base is 32.

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Regarding T3 skills, I too think that they're for the most part detrimentally broken for three reasons:

1- Their OHKO nature negates the differences in flavours their secondary effects may provide, like paralysis, sleep, halving speed/accuracy/skill... and unless the dmg or str multiplier of the ones negating def or res is reduced, it won't matter if the enemies are made less squishy. It's okay to have some be basic OHKO of different kinds (Astra is 5 weapon uses while Impale is a single use, etc).

2-Their same proc-based OHKO nature makes it difficult to balancedly introduce T3 enemies late in the game, even if it's just the boss of the map.

3- I, personally, really dislike the functionality and necessity of Nihil. If Eclipse and Aether weren't OHKOs (and also for Mantle but that's another matter) then Nihil wouldn't even need to exist. Or, if it did, it could instead have been coded so that two Nihils cancel each other out, but not the other skills (that is, as if neither unit had Skill). FE9's Ike vs BK was much more interesting because of the two skills' presence, and because single procs were survivable.

But for this to be changed, you'd need to study and figure out where and how scripts are made to work.

And isn't Sanaki's personal characteristic that she can't into staves, unlike all other T3 mages?

And as I can't post without thinking of something curious: Bane also inflicting poison. Now that'd make it unique and kinda funny: do you take the opportunity to do other things but lose the kill experience, or do you go for the kill but waste another unit's action?

Edited by Mr. Mister

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@Augestein, do you really not believe the level curve is not going to change? As in something I would not do? Considering this thread is about Part 1 you're really ahead of yourself.

EXP is being increased by around ~50% for the DB in part 3.

The Greil Mercanaries are having rather significant nerfs across the board. Even if they are a higher level than the Dawn Brigade, their stats will be around the same.

Level is just a number. Seriously, a unit is actually better if they are a low level. They gain more EXP and more room to grow. If the mercenaries are at a higher level with not-much-better actual stats, then the Dawn Brigade has not got a problem. Heck, with that sentiment you could argue the DB are too good in comparison.

It's not like it's something I haven't thought about...

You now have an Ike with 18 base speed, 40% growth and starts level 5.

Compared to Micaiah with a 19 base speed at level 1, with a 55% growth and better cap.

Considering this is Micaiah we're talking about here (who still isn't supposed to be amazingly fast)... um yeah. It's actually quite easy for the DB to match up to the GM -- and it might well be that I've tweaked things to be too much in favor of the DB, if anything. So on that note.. there isn't much to worry about. A level 10/10/1 Fiona is about on par with a -/15/1 Oscar, skills not even included.

Regarding T3 skills, I too think that they're for the most part detrimentally broken for three reasons:

Reducing their Proc chance should be doable. I think it's appropriate for them to be stronger than crits though. If they occur more rarely I think they should be fine. I understand their secondary effects aren't too prominent but we'll see... I can look into balancing them when we get to that stage.

And isn't Sanaki's personal characteristic that she can't into staves, unlike all other T3 mages?

Exactly. I didn't mention before because I assumed everyone else knew this fact. Sanaki not having staves the sole reason as to why she just doesn't match up to other magic units.

Therefore her being able to use all SS tomes isn't exactly an incredible thing. Not when you can bring Ilyana to heal and bless bolting if you really need to. But the thing is, if you are using Ilyana, why aren't you making Sanaki use Balberith or Rexcalibur or something? Unless you're using like 3 other archsages or something....

Sanaki being able to use the left over SS tome is too good, why? You seriously going to be using Soren, Ilyana, Calill and Pelleas all in your endgame team? So that Sanaki "invalidates" one of them?

Edited by DLuna

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Reducing their Proc chance should be doable. I think it's appropriate for them to be stronger than crits though. If they occur more rarely I think they should be fine.

That doesn't facilitate appreaciating each one's flavour though, and as you lower the proc chance, an enemy proccing it goes from being "calculated risk accounted for" to "reset-worthy bullshit 30 hit 1% crit". And they can be "stronger" than crits without being more damaging than crits: That's where the secondary effects come in (halving speed or skill for the rest of the turn, etc).

But you're right in that all of this will come later (unless you make Jarod a Sentinel with Halberdier stats just for dramatic effect, and because he's the friggin' leader of the occupational army). I guess it's been so much time since the game's release until someone finally released the hack, that we're all verbiaging our ideas/opinions build up over the years. Apologizes.

Now back to topic: How much time does it take you to apply the patch? I've tried the 1.1 one with pdx-pom3 with both the NTSC-U and the PAL isos, and both times it's been going at it for two hours at a constant 25% CPU usage (distributed among all four cores) without any sign of stopping (no progress indicators). Could you upload the modified FE10Data and company instead, or a way to patch those directly, or would that be too big of a headache for you?

EDIT: As a sort of plot-joke, you could cap Sanaki's Light rank at B.

Edited by Mr. Mister

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@Augestein, do you really not believe the level curve is not going to change? As in something I would not do? Considering this thread is about Part 1 you're really ahead of yourself.

EXP is being increased by around ~50% for the DB in part 3.

The Greil Mercanaries are having rather significant nerfs across the board. Even if they are a higher level than the Dawn Brigade, their stats will be around the same.

Level is just a number. Seriously, a unit is actually better if they are a low level. They gain more EXP and more room to grow. If the mercenaries are at a higher level with not-much-better actual stats, then the Dawn Brigade has not got a problem. Heck, with that sentiment you could argue the DB are too good in comparison.

It's not like it's something I haven't thought about...

You now have an Ike with 18 base speed, 40% growth and starts level 5.

Compared to Micaiah with a 19 base speed at level 1, with a 55% growth and better cap.

Considering this is Micaiah we're talking about here (who still isn't supposed to be amazingly fast)... um yeah. It's actually quite easy for the DB to match up to the GM -- and it might well be that I've tweaked things to be too much in favor of the DB, if anything. So on that note.. there isn't much to worry about. A level 10/10/1 Fiona is about on par with a -/15/1 Oscar, skills not even included.

It didn't really sound like it from how you were talking. Hence why I was asking questions. This is also why I said "finish it first and then I'll talk more about my point."

But being higher in level with lower stats isn't a good thing if the DBs have more levels to gain with growth that will pretty much ensure them to be higher and the curve to reasonably pull it off. And here, it sounds like those promotion bonuses are going to be problematic. Hence I was like "why not just fix leveling curve instead?"

Maybe in your mods, but honestly? No. Level is not merely just a number. It's meant to be the relative power for each unit that joins. And it determines the maximum potential of each unit.

But it wasn't just a question of DB matching up with GMs, it was a matter of both feeling right. Some of the changes I've seen in FE6: Redux made me a bit worried about that. Like say... Wendy. I felt like you OVERtuned Wendy in that and made her too good. She was miserable in the original, but now, she's pretty much unquestionably the best of the knights here based off of her bases, level, joining time, growths and stat spread.

Therefore her being able to use all SS tomes isn't exactly an incredible thing. Not when you can bring Ilyana to heal and bless bolting if you really need to. But the thing is, if you are using Ilyana, why aren't you making Sanaki use Balberith or Rexcalibur or something? Unless you're using like 3 other archsages or something....

Too be honest, it's still kinda tame. 1 for that exact reason and 2, because that's quite the quest to go on for SS ranking. A fun little detour I suppose, but even if you did, what are you getting from it besides stat bonuses for every weapon you use? Not much. It just sounds like you more so put it there to make Sanaki not ANNOYING for being forced. That's a good thing.

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But it wasn't just a question of DB matching up with GMs, it was a matter of both feeling right. Some of the changes I've seen in FE6: Redux made me a bit worried about that. Like say... Wendy. I felt like you OVERtuned Wendy in that and made her too good. She was miserable in the original, but now, she's pretty much unquestionably the best of the knights here based off of her bases, level, joining time, growths and stat spread.

That's a fair enough critism. Too be honest, I had to overtune the Knights because the map design in FE6 is really against them.

With Wendy, it's a feasible notion that she isn't even that difficult to grow, to the point where her amazing stat potential went a bit too far.

I nerfed Sophia in my last update but didn't touch Wendy, but I should have done so.

In FE6 rebirth however, the map design is a lot more favourable towards knights, and Wendy herself has a lot more availability, so she doesn't need to have crazy potential.

Either way, FE6 Redux was 3-4 years ago and my understanding of balance has improved since then.

Maybe in your mods, but honestly? No. Level is not merely just a number. It's meant to be the relative power for each unit that joins. And it determines the maximum potential of each unit.

I've made it very clear that lower level = better. I was more pointing to the fact that in this community, I've very often seen the criticism that a unit is bad because = low level. That doesn't make sense. You seem to understand that too -- but the point overall is the Dawn Brigade are not necessary worse just because they will end up at a lower level.

Going back to Fiona, her being a level 10 tier 1 is the best possible level she could be. And her base stats are well and truly beyond what her level is. That's a massive point in her favor.

Could you upload the modified FE10Data and company instead, or a way to patch those directly, or would that be too big of a headache for you?

I can do that, sure. Might make it easier for some people.

Although It might be necessary to just individually patch each version myself, rather than other people having to do it. Which will result in a much less hefty patch.

For Part 2 I will do this.

Edited by DLuna

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Kay, got it for Sanaki. No problem if Ilyana's caps get buffed (they are utter garbage in Vanilla)

Do you plan on buffing Soren's speed cap? 23 kinda suck. Though if T3 seals are more available that's okay.

What do you plan on doing for Danved and Heather? It would be good to give them actual reasons to be brought.

Don't forget to fix Sothe's promotion. Losing Luck is stupid.

Random Edit : How does Laguz exp work now? It seems you buffed their exp gain.

Edited by Nintales

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After watching the preview video, I can't feel like anything significant is different. It looks like minor tweaks to me. Maybe this isn't the kind of project for me, but I don't see anything worth trying... And I personally didn't feel there was "increased strategic diversity to the cast of characters and weapons/items/skills that exist".

Will there be new or alternate enemies and player classes and things like that, or is this strictly gonna be vanilla+ and pretty conservative?

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Kay, got it for Sanaki. No problem if Ilyana's caps get buffed (they are utter garbage in Vanilla)

Do you plan on buffing Soren's speed cap? 23 kinda suck. Though if T3 seals are more available that's okay.

What do you plan on doing for Danved and Heather? It would be good to give them actual reasons to be brought.

Don't forget to fix Sothe's promotion. Losing Luck is stupid.

Random Edit : How does Laguz exp work now? It seems you buffed their exp gain.

Ilyana is just a better unit, period. I have that covered. I actually plan to remove Dragonfoe (crossbows are too OP with them) so Thunder Magic will just be incredible.

Soren is currently set to have 15 base speed but 23 base magic... at level 1. He hits hard, but he would barely reach a cap of 23 now.

The plus side is that his tier 2 magic cap is 32. Tier 3 is 44.

He is not going to be balanced around doubling.

Devdan I have currently set to be THE glass cannon (non-magic) of the game. 24 base STR + 22 base SPD? At level 5? Yep. But... 11 base DEF and 7 base RES (although he does have 55 base HP). After all, Devdan has the strength of 10 men...

That's his niche. Nephenee + Aran are more durable but lack either STR or SPD. But Devdan has both... at a price.

On that note, HP (and caps) are going way up.

Heather is now Gambit.

Sothe will have amazing promotion bonuses.

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You're probably going to also buff or nerf enemies according to balance. What's in store for Makalov, and Rolf/Shinon by the way?

Interesting. And Bastian would be the speedier counterpart?

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After watching the preview video, I can't feel like anything significant is different. It looks like minor tweaks to me. Maybe this isn't the kind of project for me, but I don't see anything worth trying... And I personally didn't feel there was "increased strategic diversity to the cast of characters and weapons/items/skills that exist".

Will there be new or alternate enemies and player classes and things like that, or is this strictly gonna be vanilla+ and pretty conservative?

I respected Part 1's enemy placement enough to not change it too much. I'm guessing that's what appears to be the same?

But pretty much every single weapon/unit has been tweaked a fair amount. Almost all changes are listed in the OP.

Part 3 and beyond will have wildly changed map setups though.

And I personally didn't feel there was "increased strategic diversity to the cast of characters and weapons/items/skills that exist".

May I ask why you feel that way?

The point with that is that every unit is valuable or balanced against eachother overall throughout the game. Same with items and skills. There is more than 10 new skills obtained for Part 1 and far more weapons/items to be had as well. And all units are... good?

You're probably going to also buff or nerf enemies according to balance. What's in store for Makalov, and Rolf/Shinon by the way?

Interesting. And Bastian would be the speedier counterpart?

Makalov will just be flat out better and should be allowed to gain much more EXP in the maps that he's in. He's now practically a mounted Myrmidon with huge speed and caps.

Rolf and Shinon's base differences are much closer and now are used specifically for either strength (Rolf) or speed (Shinon). And defense (Shinon) or res (Rolf).

Edited by DLuna

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