Is Kamui a Mary Sue?

[Thane]

Hello everyone.

Now, believe it or not, I'm not making this thread to spew negativity and complain about a character which I consider to be thoroughly poorly written, but rather because I'm genuinely interested in how stories are structured and what people think of the usage of certain tropes. The Mary Sue is perhaps the most controversial and hardest to define trope in the enterainment industry; it often seems that everyone has their own understanding of what a Mary Sue is.

If you don't know what a Mary Sue is, I would suggest reading the article on TV Tropes, since it attemps to explain the fundamental parts of the phenomenon: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

Needless to say, while the term originated from fanfiction and is probably most common in that kind of litterature, I don't think that's the only place to find Sues.

I suppose I should start talking about what I consider a Mary Sue. In short, I consider it someone who warps the story around them to an impossible degree. By that I mean the story and its cast feel like they're there to serve the Mary Sue, rather than playing on an even field - people take a strong liking to the Mary Sue for no real reason and go out of their way to defend them be it from physical harm or just a debate, characters who don't like the Mary Sue are often portrayed as being in the wrong and might even become villains later, sometimes because of sheer jealousy. The rest of the cast also likes to talk about the Mary Sue when they're not there, thus making them the center of attention even while not on screen. It's also common that the world in which a Mary Sue lives also has several items, artifacts or something along those lines just waiting for the Mary Sue to use them.

Like I said earlier, this is a place to discuss whether or not you consider Kamui a Mary Sue, this is NOT a thread just to complain and rant about them. Due to the nature of the trope, negativity is to be expected, but this is not a thread dedicated to just bashing a character needlessly. If a mod thinks this thread won't contribute to any discussion worth having, then feel free to shut it down - just know that I'm doing this out of curiosity and nothing else.

Needless to say, there'll be a lot of spoilers here, so please don't continue reading if you want to wait for the English release.

So, going by my own definition, Kamui fulfills the criteria almost to a T. He gets chosen by the Yatogami for no adequately explored reason, his siblings on both sides are obsessed with him, Takumi is often portrayed as being in the wrong for not trusting him, more than a few characters are essentially his peripherals rather than having personalities of their own. The world also seems to have been made for him, having ties to all three nations and Azura's songs are (probably?) about him. The list goes on, and the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that we've got a full-blown Sue on our hands. However, I'm not here to try and convince anyone here.

So here are my questions: what do you consider a Mary Sue, and do you think Kamui is one?

Edited August 12, 2015 by Thane

[Water Mage]

Not quite, though Kamui does come dangerously close to being one.

Kamui does have some personality traits that individualize them, and their naivete does bite them back in the ass, even if very little.

[gayserbeam]

The issue with using the term "Mary Sue" for a video game protagonist is that video game protagonists will generally have to be better than everybody else for the sake of the medium itself. Everyone agrees with Kamui because Kamui is the player and these characters were designed to join the player's army. Everyone likes Kamui because marrying characters is a gameplay mechanic the player is allowed.

As for Kamui's incredible tactical and battle skills, he has them because the player does. He is an avatar of the player and thus he must, by necessity, succeed in all of his tactical endeavors unless there is a contrived situation that is not the fault of the player. Even the player made mistakes and gets units killed or fails secondary objectives, the game must continue, so the other player characters remain faithful to Kamui.

In most games you must succeed in all the primary tasks you are given. You must (or can) successfully defeat every monster in the world; you must (or can) single-handedly jail every killer in Gotham in one night; and you must (or can) become a Pokémon Master. Cloud, Red, and Batman have no angency when it comes down to their skill or their tactical abilty. They are being guided by providence, by a God in the physical world who cannot let them fail. In a traditional non-interactive story, you would often see the protagonist rise, grow, fall, and rise again. In a video game like Fire Emblem, you move from conflict to conflict, generally succeeding in each one you pass; with the story tied together under an overarching plot. It's a narrative told in success, in such a manner that it is hard to use a traditional act structure or demonstrate character development.

Of course, you could give the character personality flaws, but that wouldn't change that they are perfect fighters who can save the world. You could make Kamui an abrasive asshole, but if you can still convince everyone to marry you, you're even more exceptional.

So is Kamui a Mary Sue? While he does have the components a Mary Sue as they would be found in non-interactive mediums, the nature of the video game medium itself makes it difficult to construct a narrative that doesn't worship the protagonist, and Fire Emblem's story falls into the same pitfalls of every game of its kind. Therefore I would argue no as it is not the character that is perfect as much as it is the player themselves, and all of the player-worship and "Mysterious Charm" is justified in that it is perhaps the only way to reason why an entire army would follow a barefoot teenage shut-in to their probable deaths.

[Water Mage]

Good points gayserbeam, I though about using the video game argument, but I though it would be weak on it's own, but you made much better argument than the one I was going make.

Here's something else:

Kamui is meant to be a player avatar, so the fact that Kamui have few personality traits is most likely intentional.

[B.Leu]

There's something that people often forget, is that originally, a Mary-sue is not a super-perfect-etc character, it's a super-perfect-etc character, that is a self insert, from a fanfic. I know you said it in your post already, just wanted to say it too.

Yeah, yeah he is. But the writing doesn't really allow much anyway. Kind of like Robin.

Kamui is meant to be a player avatar, so the fact that Kamui have few personality traits is most likely intentional.

Other than the generic crappy manga traits you mean ? :p

Edited August 12, 2015 by B.Leu

[Water Mage]

There's something that people often forget, is that originally, a Mary-sue is not a super-perfect-etc character, it's a super-perfect-etc character, that is a self insert, from a fanfic. Just wanted to say that.

Yeah, yeah he is. But the writing doesn't really allow much anyway. Kind of like Robin.

Other than the generic crappy manga traits you mean ? :p

To be fair those traits are sorta nescessary if you are going to have an entire army following you to certain death. Otherwise the game would be much harder. Edited August 12, 2015 by Water Mage

[nocturnal YL]

As for Kamui's incredible tactical and battle skills, he has them because the player does. He is an avatar of the player and thus he must, by necessity, succeed in all of his tactical endeavors unless there is a contrived situation that is not the fault of the player. Even the player made mistakes and gets units killed or fails secondary objectives, the game must continue, so the other player characters remain faithful to Kamui.

Unlike the previous MUs, Kamui is actually a poor tactician story-wise. At least when compared to Leon.

[B.Leu]

To be fair those traits are sorta nescessary if you are going to have an entire army following you to certain death. Otherwise the game would be much harder.

Being stupid, dense, cliche, idealistic and poorly written is necessary to lead an army. Noted. :p

Not but seriously, is that really necessary ?

I dunno, but for all the talk about the MyUnits being Avatars of the player, in the end they're really not since you know... personality and all.

Edited August 12, 2015 by B.Leu

[Thane]

The issue with using the term "Mary Sue" for a video game protagonist is that video game protagonists will generally have to be better than everybody else for the sake of the medium itself. Everyone agrees with Kamui because Kamui is the player and these characters were designed to join the player's army. Everyone likes Kamui because marrying characters is a gameplay mechanic the player is allowed.

As for Kamui's incredible tactical and battle skills, he has them because the player does. He is an avatar of the player and thus he must, by necessity, succeed in all of his tactical endeavors unless there is a contrived situation that is not the fault of the player. Even the player made mistakes and gets units killed or fails secondary objectives, the game must continue, so the other player characters remain faithful to Kamui.

In most games you must succeed in all the primary tasks you are given. You must (or can) successfully defeat every monster in the world; you must (or can) single-handedly jail every killer in Gotham in one night; and you must (or can) become a Pokémon Master. Cloud, Red, and Batman have no angency when it comes down to their skill or their tactical abilty. They are being guided by providence, by a God in the physical world who cannot let them fail. In a traditional non-interactive story, you would often see the protagonist rise, grow, fall, and rise again. In a video game like Fire Emblem, you move from conflict to conflict, generally succeeding in each one you pass; with the story tied together under an overarching plot. It's a narrative told in success, in such a manner that it is hard to use a traditional act structure or demonstrate character development.

Of course, you could give the character personality flaws, but that wouldn't change that they are perfect fighters who can save the world. You could make Kamui an abrasive asshole, but if you can still convince everyone to marry you, you're even more exceptional.

So is Kamui a Mary Sue? While he does have the components a Mary Sue as they would be found in non-interactive mediums, the nature of the video game medium itself makes it difficult to construct a narrative that doesn't worship the protagonist, and Fire Emblem's story falls into the same pitfalls of every game of its kind. Therefore I would argue no as it is not the character that is perfect as much as it is the player themselves, and all of the player-worship and "Mysterious Charm" is justified in that it is perhaps the only way to reason why an entire army would follow a barefoot teenage shut-in to their probable deaths.

Thank you for giving such an interesting reply! I definitely see where you're coming from, but I must disagree at least in part. First of all, you can include failures even in a story told in the Fire Emblem format, just like Awakening did with Emmeryn's death. I also believe the game's narrative as a whole would've been better if you couldn't marry absolutely everyone, which would make room for characters who don't automatically love the protagonist.

I also feel like Kamui is enough of his own character to not just be an extension of the player; I don't think he's interesting or written well by any means, but he's got a past and his own set of ideals that the player can't change. The story doesn't treat him as the player and nor do the characters, so as far as the narrative goes, we simply don't exist. Kamui is also canonically a poor strategist, at least in the beginning of the game, as indicated by his and Leo's support, making his leadership role in the army even more questionable.

[Nyanko]

I don't know, but I'd much rather the story be structured around the two elder brothers leading in their routes with Kamui being an observer and doing his/her best to support them. It makes sense to me for Kamui to be in control in the IK route but not in the other two. Just watching the story through his perspective would've been good enough for me. I know Kamui is an avatar character, but I don't really need the full focus to be on them.

I'm not sure how well that would work for a video game, but that's what I would've preferred.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

http://www.quora.com/Who-are-the-most-notable-Mary-Sue-characters-in-books-and-literature
Does this answer your quetsion? Bloody Gary's and Mary's.

But isn't the point of Kamui or the MU is to be perfect? I mean, the game doesn't actually do a survey and make a character's personality based off you, nor give you dramatic story changes and choices. You're playing a character with short details and simple goals and no serious deep development, let lone the Avi Mu's are capable of romancing anyone they please and become anything they please. It's "My Unit", but I'm limited because it's actually it's own character.

Seriously, I'm leaned towards "yes". But because you kinda have to be one since their isn't an option not to be. FE doesn't have a lot of depth when it comes to stories and has the same development repeated over. Land and kingdom conquered, fight back and gt stronger while building a small army, get MC promoted or a special new weapon.

[NekoKnight]

I'd say he is because of how much the game is focused on him when it needn't be. Kamui is younger than two of his siblings (per route) and more naive/less experienced than all of them save his younger sisters but he's still the defacto leader of his army. He has less people skills, less tactical skills and less knowledge of how things work in the outside world, all things you would not expect of or tolerate for a leader. His siblings are obsessed with him even though he doesn't have any special significance in the story or their respective families. Camilla, to name just one example, is completely absorbed with Kamui (to the point of insanity) even though she has 3 other siblings to direct that love at.

Some people made the argument that the medium requires the MC to be a mary sue/super special but that's only half correct. You are required to be ultimately successful (ie beat the game) but how you frame the plot, character interactions and the flow of the story can be altered to remove mary sue elements. Kamui can still fail, make mistakes and be called out for them. He doesn't need to have everyone love him (or have people who dislike him be immediately framed as being wrong). Kamui could just be a viewpoint character (and as a avatar, that seems appropriate) for the player to see the Nohr/Hoshido/Invisible plot unfold and let the more logical leaders of the armies take charge.

Micaiah was only a mary sue for small portion of Radiant Dawn and even then she was called out for her recklessness or other questionable decisions by Sothe. Robin, while being a tactical genius, was important to the greater plot so his central role was understandable. Kamui is special because player worship.

[Gradivus0]

It really depends on whether you define a mary sue as "a perfect, invincible character" or one that warps the story. I prefer the latter, and on Nohr side, that's definitely true. It's difficult to get into without spoilers, but the narrative stretches itself to absurd lengths to keep Kamui from appearing morally wrong in any way, shape, or form. Since Kamui is supposed to be the player, he can't do anything too... Well, he can't do anything the player would be unwilling to do without breaking immersion. The problem stems from this intersect, where Kamui has to do something to move forward the plot that the player may not want to. Therefore, the narrative bends to accommodate Kamui's (and the player's) reluctance.

Edit: Er, spoiler tag isn't working for me, so I removed the list.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Sound0

[Taka-kun]

This is an interesting topic to follow. I myself think it's a premature for me to judge whether Kamui is a Mary Sue or not, though from the information I have gathered (various supports, story summaries), Kamui very well seems to be so. There is no definite trait about Kamui aside from their naïveness, which is rarely stressed aside and the only ones that chide him/her for it is Leon/Takumi, who has a very noteable flaw (suspicious respective merciless) to discredit their opinions. Otherwise, Kamui is a perfect goody two-shoes, who everybody loves and forgives regardless of any action. This includes the crown prince of respective nation that should weigh their responsibility for the nation and the people more than the whining of their younger sibling. I am willing to buy that Kamui's siblings adore them, but there is never an explicit reason why. They just merely exist. Like many others speculate, this is likely due to wanting the player to "insert" themselves into the character and thus making the character morally good with few if any flaws will offend as few players as possible.

I think this level of Mary Sueness could be avoided, despite the gameplay flow. A character could very well have great tactical skills to reflect the player's victories but can also have a heavy problem with strategic decisions, which is outside of battles proper and does not break the player's perception of "unbroken string of battlefield victories" (Sigurd I would argue, is one such character).

A player avatar doesn't need to be Mary Sueish, I would argue that Robin wasn't. They has great tactical skills but it's often inferred that they suffer in physical strength and technique because of their focus. They can be quite immoral at times, as their black-and-white morality causes them complete lack of sympathy for the opposing side's soldier (this point kinda suffers because they are called out for it by Walhart and no one else). They don't take well with insults. They can display false modesty at times. If directly complimented, they would deflect it. But indirectly, they would show their enjoyment via a smug smile. And then there is a massive issue of confidence. They have confidence in their tactical skills, nothing else.

Kamui enjoys none of these subtle hints of personality. They are just downright good unless explicitedly stated that they are not.

[Jedi]

It's very probable and over these past few FE games the amount of people saying Ike and Micaiah were Sues have died down partly due to the Avatar characters showing that Ike and Micaiah didn't literally get along with everyone.

Although from what I've heard in some plot events and endings I don't think Kamui is a full sue.

[The Geek]

No Kamui is not a Mary Sue, because being called a Mary Sue has devolved into nothing more than a negative label and buzzword used against characters and authors that a person does not like.

Also, if we're really serious about labeling Mary Sues, basically every Lord in the series is one.

[Raumata]

I can't really say much about Kamui since A.) I don't have the game, and B.) I'll probably change or insert different ways to get Kamui to grow as a character via Fanfic.

I don't really mind if the protagonist is a "mary sue/gary stu", I'm sure if the director/developer learns new ways to make the gameplay fun, that's all I need.

[Medeus]

No Kamui is not a Mary Sue, because being called a Mary Sue has devolved into nothing more than a negative label and buzzword used against characters and authors that a person does not like.

Also, if we're really serious about labeling Mary Sues, basically every Lord in the series is one.

While I do agree that it gets thrown around way too much, I don't agree that it has no meaning whatsoever anymore. It's like what happened with the term sexism, yes it's overused by certain types, but that doesn't mean that certain female characters in media aren't portrayed in the best of lights or that certain practices in real life don't discriminate against women. The problem isn't the term, it's just the way that it's used.

Mary Sue as a term can be used properly, it's just a matter of applying it to the correct situation by actually looking at the characters and how they're used in the story. For instance, you say that every lord is a "Mary Sue," yet characters like Lief are portrayed making terrible mistakes that end up costing them (ex. Chapter 19) or are portrayed with traits that they have to improve on (ex. his naivety). That would be an improper use of the term as it doesn't fit the character and how the story treats him, it's just throwing the label out. Kamui on the other hand could be a Mary Sue based on what's been said about the character due to certain traits falling into the traps of a Mary Sue (ex. certain characters being too absorbed in them such as Camilla). They may not fit as we look farther into them and find more about them, but then that's the point of this topic, to look into those traits and see if they truly do.

[Gomez_Addams]

No, because "Mary Sue" is (or should be, dagnabbit) exclusively a fanfiction term.

[ivanhellsing]

ike is more mary sueish than kamui tbh

[Honey Bunny]

Personally I can't say much on Kamui himself as I know basically nothing about him, but I want to address an argument that bothers me.

I'd also like to agree that a videogame protagonist doesn't have to be a mary sue. Yes, in the FE series they have to be good combatants, but that's it. They don't have to be hyper-naive idiots that literally everyone loves because reasons.

You know what character would work really well in FE? Robb Stark.

He was a good fighter, a better tactician, and a great dude. Every fight he ever fought in he won, but he still lost the war. Killed while trying to make a peace treaty, and made into little more than a grisly joke.

Here's the thing, none of what I just wrote up there wouldn't work in FE. Sure that campaign would be short, and dark for FE, but it would still work. Heck just get rid of that last part, and it wouldn't even be overly dark.

[rainbowResonance]

Honestly, Kamui could've just been a meaningful character who is only customizable in terms of name and asthetic (in fact that's all you can customize about the MU anyway). I don't see why a MU type of character for any game should be locked into a restricted mindset just to "please everyone".

I find Kamui of Fates to be, as mentioned, a character dragged down by said idolized-character traits, similarly to how the antagoists of FE are dragged down by the fact of having to be blatantly evil, or the protagonists for being blatantly good. IS likes to push their elements into a cut-out. This is why I value humor in FE highly, since it's one of the brigther side of things (also why I liked Robin). I don't feel like IS was particularly good with these things (though there are certainly exceptions).

Honestly the one key thing that puts Robin above Kamui in my opinion is his lesser favoritism from others compared to Kamui (and having to work to gain more favoritism) as well as being linked to the antagonist of the game. At least it added another level of depth. I personally prefer how Robin deals with situations as well.

ntl;bdwr I agree with the OP. Also I probably have a rougher Kamui bias due to being more influenced by the Nohr path.

extra: FE, by no means, needs to have good writing in both characters and story to be successful. Pokemon obviously doesn't. There are other games out there that do a better job. However, I personally still want for the FE series to become well known for that though. It's my faith in the series, since it has many great factors elsewhere.

Edited August 12, 2015 by rainbowResonance

[Taka-kun]

You know what character would work really well in FE? Robb Stark.

He was a good fighter, a better tactician, and a great dude. Every fight he ever fought in he won, but he still lost the war. Killed while trying to make a peace treaty, and made into little more than a grisly joke.

Here's the thing, none of what I just wrote up there wouldn't work in FE. Sure that campaign would be short, and dark for FE, but it would still work. Heck just get rid of that last part, and it wouldn't even be overly dark.

Completelt agree with this. And FE also needs a villain like Tywin Lannister instead of flat evil dudes.

[Azz]

Completelt agree with this. And FE also needs a villain like Tywin Lannister instead of flat evil dudes.

OMG yes!I just hope we have a Jeoffrey to go along with that.

[Vitezen]

The fact that Kamui believes he made the wrong choice when choosing Nohr makes him not a Mary Sue. Arguably Hoshido and all of its residents are Mary Sues, with Kamui having lost some of it due to living away from home for so long.