Is Kamui a Mary Sue?

[Alazen]

Regardless, saying IK Kamui stands out for how worked for what he gets more than assorted other Lords is questionable.

Also, I suggest that the thread title include a spoiler warning.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Alazen

[Sunwoo]

Regardless, saying that Ike didn't have to work for what he gets while Kamui really had to just comes off as a dishonest statement to me. And it still doesn't change the biggest reason why I feel Kamui is a Mary Sue.

Again, compare the way Shinon and Takumi are treated in the narrative. Yes, Shinon's not a nice guy and he has a lot of negative traits that overshadow his good ones. But he's not the only person like this, look at Makalov! He's a drunkard gambler who makes his sister's life miserable because she has to clean up his messes. Lethe also has shades of being a racist until she mellows out, and Soren comes off as an emotionally stunted prick at times. However, the narrative does not judge them. Shinon may not be nice, but the narrative of the story doesn't seem to shove down my throat that Shinon is wrong for disliking Ike. I feel like I am able to make my own call on what I think about this rather than narrative being "no, it has to be this way!" The game tries to narrate as objectively as it can.

In Awakening, I felt that the game had too much of a narrative bias in favor of Ylisse. Plegia was laughable and obviously evil, and Ylisse was "good". It liked Emmeryn too much and portrayed her as this wonderful ruler when in previous FE games, Eirika and Elincia were called out on their naivety and pacifism when it became detrimental and allowed them to grow as characters. And yet Emmeryn is hailed as a saint for her sacrifice, even though the circumstances of it could've been avoided and she never learned from her naivety.

[spoiler=MAJOR NOHR SPOILERS]When the script has a dead Takumi ask Kamui to kill his body because that's not him, and how he feels that the situation is his fault for being so hostile to Kamui in the first place, how is the narrative not shoving in my face that Takumi's (justified in this route) distrust of Kamui is wrong? The narrative itself is telling me he's wrong, compared to the previous games, where I felt like I could make my own decision on whether Shinon was unjustified or not.

[rainbowResonance]

I haven't played Fates yet but I think Fire Emblem in general has a big problem with these sorts of characters and it's a big reason why it's less respected for writing than various other RPG series.

I wish the community did the story and/or character writing for them honestly :/ could narrow some people via a competition or something. It's not entirely very practical, but knowing there are people on this forum would could seriously make a huge difference just from reviewing the writing... Hell, how the heck does IS even handle the review and edit process for character and story writing?

I should stop derailing... but I wanted to say something to that.

[Alazen]

Again, I'll point to Micaiah. Her tactic of using burning oil is treated as despicable by both enemies and fighters on her side. The devotion her troops have is treated as unnerving by members of Ike's side. And while Micaiah retracts what she said about Ike awhile back by admitting Sothe was on the money about him, that doesn't happen the other way around. Ike never really acknowledges Micaiah as a leader who's on his level.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Alazen

[NeptuniasBeard]

I thought this is what we were doing.

What Mary Sue is, is a figure so perfect in the eyes of the narrative itself, the plot and characters in that universe literally bend to suit the needs of Mary Sue. In ways that go against the nature of characters, plot, etc. The majority of the well thought out responses here agree on that point. Robin is a Mary Sue imo, because he/she is inexplicably gifted, everyone really does love Robin, he/she is never called out on anything they do, and the plot bends for them. Kamui is a worse one because all of this happens, plus more. Robin had the excuse of being bred to be Grima's vessel. Kamui has.....????

I gotta disagree about Robin being a Mary Sue. Sure, it's a little odd for an amnesiac to be an A+ tactician, but I never really saw where the world and it's people seemed to revolve around them. S/he tends to be on pretty even footing with all the other characters in supports. Nobody's gushing over them, they have flaws that people don't try to cover up, and the people of the army are no more friendly with him/her than they are with anyone else. Not even all of their plans tend to work out, they failed at least 3 times in the story and didn't pull a last minute solution out their ass. There was the whole "power of friendship" thing at the end, but that has more to do with anime tropes than anything having to do with Robin. If Chrom were for some reason in that situation, it would've ended the same way.

I don't know much about fates, but from the start, it's pretty obvious that the story revolves around him/her and there are almost a dozen characters that revolve around them, at LEAST. I'm not saying that makes this Avatar a Mary Sue, at least not until I get the game myself lol

[Thane]

Regardless, saying IK Kamui stands out for how worked for what he gets more than assorted other Lords is questionable.

Also, I suggest that the thread title include a spoiler warning.

There is a spoiler tag AND I warn about spoilers in the original post. If that wasn't enough, I'm fairly confident the very nature of the thread is enough to deter people who don't want spoilers from even clicking on it.

By this definition, nearly every main character in ANY normal story or video game is a Mary Sue. Idk. As an avid writer (and by default reader), it seems almost every main character can easily fit most of these, because they are such broad strokes. A main character is the main character, and usually the story is revolved around them. And usually, the cast is there to serve the main character, because since the story revolves around the main character, the characters introduced would usually have some major interaction/help toward the main character.

People taking a strong liking to the main character sounds more like bad writing. A Mary Sue would be better defined by someone with a wealth of negative traits that all the characters ignore conveniently, OR someone with a wealth of ONLY positive traits without a single nuance.

And usually a main character (usually in fantasy) DOES have something meant just for them, or some power only they can wield. It's storytelling. And there's only so much you can do in the confines of any book or game.

I think your definition is too broad, because it can be applied to almost anyone. From what I've learned a Mary Sue is usually little miss/mr. perfect, without development because they don't NEED development (read: perfect), and they accomplish ALL their goals without a single struggle or issue, aside from perhaps one conveniently thrown in 'struggle', that has more to do with the side characters than the actual mary sue character themselves.

Either way, from what I've seen/read I kinda am halfway. It does sometimes seem like Kamui is a mary sue, but other times I honestly just feel as if Kamui was just REALLY poorly written---which you can always argue are basically the same thing (sometimes they are), but in this case, it seems far more likely they just missed the ball on personality/writing.

I respectfully disagree that my definition is too broad. There are few games where I feel like the narrative, cast and the very world itself is centered around a character to such a degree; Fire Emblem Fates is one of them. I realize that the character has to be special in some regard, but being special or having cool powers or whatever doesn't automatically make someone a Mary Sue, hell even general popularity with the cast doesn't make someone a Mary Sue; it all depends on how those elements of the story are written.

Let's take a standard roleplaying game as an example, seeing as that genre has to suit the player to a much higher degree than most. In Dragon Age: Origins, you are a special kind of warrior (a Gray Warden), but you're not unique - there's a whole order of those people. You can initiate a romance with some people - but the rest of the cast will call you out on it if you're flirting with either the manipulative witch or the assassin. People can leave the party if you go against them too much, and they're not afraid to tell you off and make you feel like you've failed - the best example is Alistair, your closest friend who's always ready with a smile, who can yell at you for almost two minutes for just not doing enough to save someone important to him - there's one ideal way to do it, but it's difficult and comes with risks, so a lot of players don't even KNOW about it during the first playthrough. Yet the narrative doesn't put Alistair down for being frustrated and somewhat unfair to you, that's left to the players to decide and mull over.

It's difficult for a game to match the complexity and brilliant writing of Dragon Age. Origins, but Fates doesn't even come close - could you ever imagine Kamui being treated in such a way? If Takumi was semi-unjustified in being pissed off at Kamui, wouldn't his siblings show up and call him out on it? The very world warps itself around Kamui, and I think Sunwoo nailed exactly how and why it simply doesn't work. Conquest is without a doubt the biggest offender, but Kamui is still inexplicably beloved and perfect in other routes as well.

And I'd like to remind people we're NOT here to discuss Robin. Drawing parallels is fine, but just writing about him is not.

[Tharne]

Just look at Kamui's personal skill : "Mysterious Appeal" and its icon is a person with a holy light coming behind its head. I mean, you can't get more obvious.

[NekoKnight]

Ike gets handed the leadership of the Greil Mercenaries despite the fact that he's 16-17 and there are many other competent, more senior members of the group to lead it (Titania most obviously) because... his dad led it I guess? But everyone gushes about what a good leader Ike will be, I pretty much remember that being the majority of the Ike/Oscar support which I get every single playthrough and am thankful the start button is a thing. The one character who disagrees with this decision, Shinon, is a composite of negative traits: racist, money-loving, disrespectful to his comrades. His disliking Ike kinda gets thrown in with that, I never got the feeling I was supposed to agree with him even though he has a decent point about not wanting to follow some kid just because he was Greil's son.

Far be it from me to tell you Ike isn't a sue (his role in PoR is less sue-ish than RD) but I will disagree with you on one point. You say it's illogical for Ike to get leadership of the mercenaries but this is adequately justified in game. After Greil died, the only characters willful enough to lead either left (Shinon) or respected Greil so much that she (Titania) wanted his son to lead. It's assumed that Ike would have taken control of the company after Greil anyway, so everyone just went along with it. If people gushed about how great Ike would be it would be in veneration of his father, and that the company was as close-knit as a family. This contrasts to Kamui who has every reason to be subordinate to his other siblings but isn't for reasons the story doesn't care to explain.

[Sasori]

I don't know enough about the story to make a accurate guess and the fact that the "Marry sue" label is a bit tricky isn't helping either so i'll just say my piece of the player worshipping that I hear a lot. If the player worship annoys me or not depends on how its handled with the characters that aren't Kamui's brothers and sisters or servants.

It makes sense that the Hoshido side is a bit crazy for Kamui, considering he was stolen from them and the same can be said for the Nohr side who also risks losing their brother/sister in one of the two routes. You still have Camilla who's very creepy with it, but thats mostly her being needy instead of Kamui being that good from what I could tell.

Felicia and especially Joker being very devoted to Kamui also makes some degree of sense, considering he is the only reason those two actually have a job.

So those characters I can understand at least a little, but I would be annoyed if everyone else in the cast also started to cling to Kamui for no good reason

Edited August 13, 2015 by Sasori

[Alazen]

Except the one Hoshido sibling defined by his contempt for Kamui is portrayed as being damn wrong for it. Whether it's getting called out for not trusting Kamui or having a hate monster, the narrative goes out of its way to show us that Takumi is damn wrong for his contempt towards Kamui.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Alazen

[Sunsurge]

I respectfully disagree that my definition is too broad. There are few games where I feel like the narrative, cast and the very world itself is centered around a character to such a degree; Fire Emblem Fates is one of them. I realize that the character has to be special in some regard, but being special or having cool powers or whatever doesn't automatically make someone a Mary Sue, hell even general popularity with the cast doesn't make someone a Mary Sue; it all depends on how those elements of the story are written.

Let's take a standard roleplaying game as an example, seeing as that genre has to suit the player to a much higher degree than most. In Dragon Age: Origins, you are a special kind of warrior (a Gray Warden), but you're not unique - there's a whole order of those people. You can initiate a romance with some people - but the rest of the cast will call you out on it if you're flirting with either the manipulative witch or the assassin. People can leave the party if you go against them too much, and they're not afraid to tell you off and make you feel like you've failed - the best example is Alistair, your closest friend who's always ready with a smile, who can yell at you for almost two minutes for just not doing enough to save someone important to him - there's one ideal way to do it, but it's difficult and comes with risks, so a lot of players don't even KNOW about it during the first playthrough. Yet the narrative doesn't put Alistair down for being frustrated and somewhat unfair to you, that's left to the players to decide and mull over.

It's difficult for a game to match the complexity and brilliant writing of Dragon Age. Origins, but Fates doesn't even come close - could you ever imagine Kamui being treated in such a way? If Takumi was semi-unjustified in being pissed off at Kamui, wouldn't his siblings show up and call him out on it? The very world warps itself around Kamui, and I think Sunwoo nailed exactly how and why it simply doesn't work. Conquest is without a doubt the biggest offender, but Kamui is still inexplicably beloved and perfect in other routes as well.

And I'd like to remind people we're NOT here to discuss Robin. Drawing parallels is fine, but just writing about him is not.

I still think your original post was too broad. This one narrows the definition to all that you said, but only in absurd extremes, which in my opinion has more to do with terrible writing, than being an actual Mary Sue character. It's so easy to fall into the line of bad or cliche'd writing, but I think a Mary Sue is a very particular type of character. They are usually present, even in stories with GOOD writing.

Either way, I honestly don't think you can compare Dragon Age to Fire Emblem. I mean Dragon Age was literally crafted around the player and offers actual CHOICE. Not one single decision, but hundreds of variations and a limited cast of characters. The more characters you add, the more the story and development decentralizes and resorts to tropes and stereotypes. Dragon Age focuses on a few characters in a large story.

I mean hell. Your main character in Dragon Age: Inquisition fits YOUR definition, if you choose ALL the right choices. You can essentially make your character a Mary Sue, as he/she has all the makings of it, with THEIR special power, not to mention they can get everyone to join them and love them with all the things you say. Granted there's so much more nuance in a game like Dragon Age (and so much better writing), that I don't think it's a very fair comparison.

I still think Kamui is more the poor result of a bad self-insert done wrong. But as I said, I can still see how he definitely has Mary-Sue qualities, but that's just it. I don't think we can look at the poor writing of OTHER characters to define whether or not Kamui was a Mary Sue.

[Alazen]

I would say Kamui fails at being a self-insert for being so defined with so little leeway to spin or direct his views of major events.

For example, Kamui CAN'T be framed as contemptuous towards or unconcerned about his siblings. You can't have Hinoka actually die, whether by Kamui's hands or another's, and have her death mean nothing to him.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Alazen

[Thane]

I still think your original post was too broad. This one narrows the definition to all that you said, but only in absurd extremes, which in my opinion has more to do with terrible writing, than being an actual Mary Sue character. It's so easy to fall into the line of bad or cliche'd writing, but I think a Mary Sue is a very particular type of character. They are usually present, even in stories with GOOD writing.

Either way, I honestly don't think you can compare Dragon Age to Fire Emblem. I mean Dragon Age was literally crafted around the player and offers actual CHOICE. Not one single decision, but hundreds of variations and a limited cast of characters. The more characters you add, the more the story and development decentralizes and resorts to tropes and stereotypes. Dragon Age focuses on a few characters in a large story.

I mean hell. Your main character in Dragon Age: Inquisition fits YOUR definition, if you choose ALL the right choices. You can essentially make your character a Mary Sue, as he/she has all the makings of it, with THEIR special power, not to mention they can get everyone to join them and love them with all the things you say. Granted there's so much more nuance in a game like Dragon Age (and so much better writing), that I don't think it's a very fair comparison.

I still think Kamui is more the poor result of a bad self-insert done wrong. But as I said, I can still see how he definitely has Mary-Sue qualities, but that's just it. I don't think we can look at the poor writing of OTHER characters to define whether or not Kamui was a Mary Sue.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, then. I believe Mary Sues spawn from bad writing, but I also believe Intelligent Systems really wanted to make the player feel empowered when playing through the game, but they went about it the wrong way, and we ended up with Kamui as he is now. As for Mary Sues in good pieces of fiction, could you give an example? I'm not doubting you, I just really want to know since I think this trope is very interesting.

Also, I'd like to point out that I never once mentioned Dragon Age: Inquisition, but Origins. Inquisition has far worse writing and its main character has far more Sue traits than the Gray Warden. Ugh, great, now you made me think about Inquisition...I've gotta go brush my teeth.

And you're right, we can't decide whether or not Kamui is a Mary Sue by comparing him to other works of fiction, but we can compare situations that may help us put things into perspective, which is why Robin has been brought up so many times.

[Alazen]

I wonder if FE can have a lead even worse than Kamui.

[Thane]

I wonder if FE can have a lead even worse than Kamui.

Not without considerable effort.

Or, you know, if they keep all of Kamui's traits and name the new protagonist "Raven" or something. That'd be pretty bad.

[Alazen]

So, worst FE lead ever?

Edited August 16, 2015 by Alazen

[The DanMan]

The writing just seems to have regressed over the past few games. PoR was traditional, but fun. RD introduced new characters only to leave them underdeveloped and to shove in more Ike. NME had Chris, who until recently was the biggest Mary Sue in the series. Awakening, along with it's very confused direction and utter lack of worldbuilding and fleshing out of villians, gave us Robin.

And now we have Mr. Gary Stu incarnate. What's next?

[Alazen]

At least RD had Part 2. It beats the Kris Kontent, any arc in Awakening, and assorted parts of Fates as well.

I'll be blunt, RD Part 2 is better than what has come after it at large. Elincia in particular is a noticeably better character than other lead women in FE.

[Thane]

The writing just seems to have regressed over the past few games. PoR was traditional, but fun. RD introduced new characters only to leave them underdeveloped and to shove in more Ike. NME had Chris, who until recently was the biggest Mary Sue in the series. Awakening, along with it's very confused direction and utter lack of worldbuilding and fleshing out of villians, gave us Robin.

And now we have Mr. Gary Stu incarnate. What's next?

This is all very subjective. I consider Blazing Sword to be almost as bad as Fates in terms of writing, and I remember not liking much about Path of Radiance or Radiant Dawn at all when it came to the story or the characters. Maybe I should replay them, but I honestly have no desire to do so. Awakening, for all its flaws, still made dialogue flow more naturally than the other earlier installments, wherein it sounded very artificial.

But we're digressing too much here, I feel like. The focus is on Kamui and the writing of Fates, this discussion is for another topic.

[ivanhellsing]

people really doesn't know what is a mary sue and kris is the worst offender

[Vitezen]

You just called Hoshido and all of its residents the worst insult it could ever be made to a character just because Kamui was naive enough to believe a country was perfect for what little he/she knew of it? Okay. But honestly the fact that Kamui regrets joining Nohr just throws him/her deeper into the naive territory in my opinion. And I'm not saying that just because I side with Hoshido I also really like Nohr (except it's story) but I think that regret makes Kamui go deeper inside the naive hole.

If a nation having "no bad people" in it didn't qualify as a nation of Mary Sues, I don't know what else would.

[Zachmac]

people really doesn't know what is a mary sue and kris is the worst offender

I think the problem is that no one can agree on what a Mary Sue is, exactly. There's no one specific definition.

If a nation having "no bad people" in it didn't qualify as a nation of Mary Sues, I don't know what else would.

Just because someone isn't a bad person doesn't necessarily mean they're a Mary Sue.

[Alazen]

Regardless, making the European kingdom over-the-top dastardly while making the Japanese kingdom that is also the Lord's birth kingdom sunny with no major internal conflicts or properly explored social ills is questionable.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Alazen

[Cinnamon Bun]

Regardless, making the European kingdom over-the-top dastardly while making the Japanese kingdom that is also the Lord's birth kingdom sunny with no major internal conflicts or properly explored social ills is questionable.

This is why I'm so incredibly Nohr biased. I wanted to like Hoshido so much but I'm so turned off by the perfect representation and nice green lands etc?? I won't even regret invading them in the Nohr path.

[Zachmac]

Regardless, making the European kingdom over-the-top dastardly while making the Japanese kingdom that is also the Lord's birth kingdom sunny with no major internal conflicts or properly explored social ills is questionable.

Well, I won't disagree with that. When I heard you could pick side with the country that'd usually be the bad guys in most Fire Emblems, I figured that there'd be a lot more grey morality in that version. I was hoping that we'd possibly be able to see the bad side of Hoshido on the Nohr route, or that we'd see some level of justification for the war, but from the sounds of it, we don't see either.

The poor crops and economy of Nohr meant they could of justified the war somewhat by saying it was out of desperation. Instead, it sounds like the war is just because Garon's a huge jerk while Mikoto isn't.

Ah, I'm just derailing this thread now, aren't I? I'll stop. Maybe I'll make a new thread for this.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Zachmac