Is Kamui a Mary Sue?

[NekoKnight]

That's most games with choice. Dragon Age Origins gets a lot of name drops in this thread but in the end it doesn't have a single option that upset or redirect the goal or direction of the overall quest.

It's a brilliant RPG but as The Grey Warden you're the arbiter of all the choices that don't effect the flow/direction of the story. The game's structure provides you with a lot of self-contained events where you can make a choice, the characters can be killed or turn against you exactly past the point that they've exhausted their use and their death could not possibly alter the in-game direction.

Very few games have true choice that diverge from each other because the more they diverge the developers have to start creating more and more content, hence why games quickly reconverge or leave the choice to the dead end of the dungeon/game so everyone plays the same bits. Even a series like Fable which was supposed to be the choice of polar Evil or Good has a 100% pure evil character save the world in the exact same way as 100% good.

"blue, red and green" was for ME3, the last portion of a trilogy where people expected their choices to matter in a significant way. DA:O was a one off lalalanodragonagegameswerereleasedafterthat and the conclusion wasn't as important as how you got there. Even if there were no route splits past chapter 6, I think people would have been happy with simple choices "ally with this faction over that faction" like in Yarne's paralogue or choosing to spare or not spare people (ie choose the moral fiber of the self-insert). I agree that too much divergence dilutes the game content but a lot can be done with simple dialogue changes or slight alterations of the map you play on. Chapter 6 for IK could have been made worlds better with only a dialogue change, to name one example.

[Taka-kun]

"blue, red and green" was for ME3, the last portion of a trilogy where people expected their choices to matter in a significant way. DA:O was a one off lalalanodragonagegameswerereleasedafterthat and the conclusion wasn't as important as how you got there. Even if there were no route splits past chapter 6, I think people would have been happy with simple choices "ally with this faction over that faction" like in Yarne's paralogue or choosing to spare or not spare people (ie choose the moral fiber of the self-insert). I agree that too much divergence dilutes the game content but a lot can be done with simple dialogue changes or slight alterations of the map you play on. Chapter 6 for IK could have been made worlds better with only a dialogue change, to name one example.

I would even argue that the choices at the end of the DLC chapters in Awakening amplified the development of Robin, as you could make him/her into a blood knight and/or a dishonorable individual and/or merciless and/or the same tactician as in FE7. It didn't affect anything gameplay-wise, but it added an interesting viewpoint with the conversation after the choice. Kamui in Fates is entirely beyond our control, aside from go with Nohr or go with Hoshido, which hardly affect them as a person.

[sperio]

I don't think you can classify a self-insert as a Mary Sue. Kamui is fanservice.

[Thane]

First off, you're reacting to my post way too aggressively. I know you didn't say TV Tropes defined a mary sue perfectly, but I imagined that definition was the one you were using since you mentioned your 'facincation with the trope' and I merely brought up the fact that TV Tropes wasn't what everyone else used to define a mary sue so opinions would be different regarding that. If I got what I saw wrong, then I'm sorry. Next, the newbie boom affects -expectations- of the story. More fans, people expect good quality since it was able to get those fans in the first place. Yeah they hired a writer, they hyped themselves up, they had all the tools but it fell flat. As a result, they couldn't match their hype for the game's story which led it being seen as disappointing by some people. Strayed off further when I mentioned the face rubbing and controversies so, again sorry. When I spoke about the story, it was off-topic. I even SAID it was off topic.

As for Kamui not being a mary sue, its the support convos that save them. Not all of them are golden but they flesh out the character more and prevent them from being a generic, perfect mary sue. You could just look at the main story and say everyone swarms around them and loves them and appreciates them but you're being selective in your viewing. Yeah you can marry everyone but it is a game mechanic and its even explained in story by fighting along-side those people. I mean look at it from your perspective. If I fought alongside anyone, I'd feel a connection of friendship. That person has your back and you have theirs. So it explains why they might like Kamui.

You were wondering what I considered a mary sue as well? I consider a Mary Sue to be someone that is boringly perfect, doesn't have to struggle with hardship, has one flaw that is mentioned and never played up, breaks the story with their presence and is generally uninteresting and has little to no flavor as a character, has everyone fawning over them for no reason at all and has some crazy power and or heritage. Some of the support convos they have prevents this from happening in my opinion. Kamui doesn't fit with enough of those traits for me to call them a Mary Sue. Some of the traits? Sure, but not enough.

Another issue I have to bring up is some of the complaints of how Kamui seems to make the game feel too centered on them and it makes them feel sueish.

Of course the story will be centered around Kamui and their perspective. Kamui is the main character, they get the most attention not to mention the fact they are also THE lord character of his game. You're not sharing the main spotlight with someone like Chrom and Lucina. In addition, Kamui isn't fully their own character like Ike or Lyn was. They're a custom character made by the player, so IS decided to give them a little extra good treatment as a result. Whether you think that was good or bad is up to an individual person. I don't really mind it. Don't care for it but I don't dislike it either.

It was never my intention of appearing aggressive; in all honesty I thought I handled that post very well given how there was nothing to reply to.

Sadly, I still don't see your point. Yes, more fans means more people will be expecting a good story, but the ones who hyped up the story was Intelligent Systems who spent entire interviews where they could've been talking about something else going on about the story. However, just increasing the number of people who expect a good story doesn't mean diddly-squat; if a gaming company sets out to create a game with a heavy emphasis on story, then the consumer will expect a decent story to keep them entertained regardless of how many will purchase their product. You make it sound like the bigger the fanbase the better the story has to be, which is ridiculous. However, this is still incredibly off topic and has no bearing on the actual writing of Kamui. Your point is inconsequential.

Again, I fail to see what point you're making here. Kamui is not a Mary Sue because people fight alongside them and therefore it's natural for the soldiers to like Kamui? The problem isn't that Kamui is well-liked, least of all in support conversations. As you say, it's to be expected, especially given the nature of the Fire Emblem series - the problem appears when the story introduces characters who only exist as Kamui's peripherals and when the cast and the entire narrative go out of their way to portray Kamui as being more or less infallible and always having the moral high ground.

By your very definition, it sounds like you'd consider Kamui a Mary Sue. He has a crazy heritage, crazy powers and has a supposed flaw (naïvité) that I believe doesn't cause any major damage, although feel free to correct me on that one. Kamui is also inexplicably popular with characters like Camilla, whose entire shtick is being obsessed with him, even though she's got more siblings and loyal retainers. I'd also claim that they're both perfect, and "break the story with their presence", but that's more subjective than the rest of your Mary Sue list - I could mention a number of occasions where I think Kamui completely breaks the story, but it seems you're disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing, so it'd probably be a waste of time. Finally, you think a Mary Sue has "little flavor" as a character, to which I must ask what Kamui's "flavor" is. I don't see anything other than a thoroughly uninteresting shounen stereotype whose interesting premise is utterly squandered, but if you could help me change my opinion, I'd be genuinely grateful.

I've never seen anyone complain about Kamui getting much time in the spotlight, but if people believe that's a problem, then that's odd. I agree with you, Kamui is the main lord and should rightly have the most screen time. However, there are a multitude of factors to take into consideration here: for instance, you can't completely neglect all the siblings - I've always been of the opinion that there simply are too many and that they aren't given enough time to shine, but that's not Kamui's fault, but whoever planned the story's; it might've worked in Mr. Kibayashi's draft, but it translates poorly into video game format. There's also the problem with Kamui as a main lord in that they never change over the course of the story - there's no progression in their character: they starts out as a good-hearted, naïve shounen cliché, and that's how they remain until the end. Something the route system never took advantage of was the opportunity to have Kamui change as a character, maybe becoming more cynical and cold-hearted in one route while keeping their ideals in another, although preferably growing more competent in the process. Instead, the game fails at that, and I think you'll find that most people will agree that Takumi and Leo are far better written characters than Kamui, despite having much less time to shine, as it were.

This. This is the definition of a Mary Sue that I was taught.

A story that warps around a character doesn't define a Mary Sue at all, but is just an indication of bad writing. Being a Mary Sue, generally has nothing to do with the story being centered around them, because they're two separate issues. And I agree with you, Kamui isn't really a full character, because they are custom and so their treatment within the story is based upon that.

Which is where I think you're wrong. I don't really think there's an 'opinion' of it. Nor do I think it's very ambiguous. There are clear cut lines that define a Mary Sue, and you can learn them in any writing class usually. I know you're not trying to convince anyone of your opinion (and I never said you were?), but you can't really argue either if you disagree on everyone else's interpretation of a Mary Sue that contrasts your own if you're only 'interested in hearing' everyone else's opinions.

As you just said, the universe doesn't bend around Ginny, but that's not part of the Mary Sue trope. Universe bending is 'main character syndrome', as is constantly being the center of attention. Mary Sue is mostly defined with traits within a character. Not the outside factors such as the universe revolving around them.

Really? Then we shouldn't even be having this argument, should we? Nor should there be so many different interpretations of it, and I should easily be able to find this definition. I wouldn't have created this thread if that were the case.

As for the "universe bending", I believe I had already covered that, but maybe I'm confusing this thread with another. Kamui's actions are always portrayed as correct, and the story doesn't advance by their wits as much as it does contrivances. Kamui also has a tendency to make characters around them act in a way expected by Mary Sues, such as characters being inexplicably obsessed with them and the ones who don't like them are being portrayed as being in the wrong no matter how justified their opinion.

Outside factors have a lot to do with Mary Sues, and I believe you know that. Mary Sues warp the plot around them and for instance make a characters act, well, out of character.

A question for you both, by the way: have you actually played the game?

[Sunwoo]

This. This is the definition of a Mary Sue that I was taught.

A story that warps around a character doesn't define a Mary Sue at all, but is just an indication of bad writing. Being a Mary Sue, generally has nothing to do with the story being centered around them, because they're two separate issues. And I agree with you, Kamui isn't really a full character, because they are custom and so their treatment within the story is based upon that.

Which is where I think you're wrong. I don't really think there's an 'opinion' of it. Nor do I think it's very ambiguous. There are clear cut lines that define a Mary Sue, and you can learn them in any writing class usually. I know you're not trying to convince anyone of your opinion (and I never said you were?), but you can't really argue either if you disagree on everyone else's interpretation of a Mary Sue that contrasts your own if you're only 'interested in hearing' everyone else's opinions.

[…] Universe bending is 'main character syndrome', as is constantly being the center of attention. Mary Sue is mostly defined with traits within a character. Not the outside factors such as the universe revolving around them.

But a Mary Sue is more often than not made by bad writing. Honestly, a character who is boringly perfect and doesn't struggle with hardship and with "token" flaws are annoying. But if they're not the center of attention, who the fuck cares? If they're easy to forget they exist, then I'll just forget they exist. But if they're actively warping the story around themselves, then how can that not be a Mary Sue? Bad writing can create Mary Sues. A lot of people who can't write or don't know how to write realistic interactions between characters will end up giving their favorite creation too much bias and make them beloved of everyone and only the bad people dislike them.

You're giving me the impression that you think Mary Sues don't exist in bad writing because that's just bad writing. I don't think that is so, and Mary Sues are more often than not something seen more often in bad writing.

Also, writing classes can only teach you so much. They'll teach you the basics of writing and some technicalities that writers should avoid. However, I don't think one can be a true writer until one stops adhering so much to writing classes. They are not the absolute truth, they are merely a guideline and a writer has to forge their own style and find out what they agree or disagree with. I think you should stop falling back on the "you can learn them in any writing class" spiel. Creative writing classes can give you an idea of what to do and what not to do, but they cannot teach people how to write for themselves.

I used to think that a Mary Sue could be defined by traits. But I realized that I didn't believe that much later on, as I wrote more and read more stories and fanfiction. A character can have most if not all of the traits of a Mary Sue, and yet still avoid being one if they're written well and realistically.

Is every character with a "special-sounding" name who is proficient in ten different languages and a virtuoso in at least five different musical instruments who has a beautiful singing voice and part of many different student organizations and is well-liked by their peers always a Mary Sue? No. In fact, there are people like this in real life. Very special people. What makes a character with all these traits a Mary Sue is how poorly they're written. Not the traits themselves.

[NekoKnight]

I used to think that a Mary Sue could be defined by traits. But I realized that I didn't believe that much later on, as I wrote more and read more stories and fanfiction. A character can have most if not all of the traits of a Mary Sue, and yet still avoid being one if they're written well and realistically.

It's true that characters can have several traits of a Mary Sue but not be one because of being well written.

I've heard Mikasa from Attack on Titan referenced here as a Mary Sue and it's easy to think that, on the surface. Exotic background, beautiful, almost peerless fighting abilities, being in love with a male lead, etc. But when you look deeper at the challenges she faces and the other interactions with characters she has, she actually quite fallible and the story/characters doesn't bend to suit her desires.

There is more to a Mary Sue than mere screen time and abundance of positive qualities. By definition, 'main characters' are going to get a disproportionate amount of attention and likely have several things that make them special but good writing will balance them out so a character is both endearing and believable.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

never minding that attack on titans is pretty average at best, but you are all right about there's more to a mary sue then just having afew traits.

[Abysswalker25]

I'll be using IK and Nohr as references since I'm not all that sure how Hoshido panned out.

The same could be said for Kamui NekoKnight. Hes not the best written character overall in fates and I wouldn't list him as an example of a good character like Leon or Takumi since hes more.. average but really he isn't piss poor like some would have you believe. You might think them perfect and a generic hero but they're suffering inner-turmoil best seen in the Nohr Aqua/Kamui support. They think they made the right choice but they are suffering nightmares about the hoshidans they had to kill or couldn't spare because of one reason or another. They're willing to let a Hoshidan assassin kill them because of how torn up they feel over it. Kamui wants to save as many people as he can during the invasion of Hoshido, and he can't just snap his fingers, rebel and stop it because it would be too difficult to pull off mid-war. Iago and Ganz override his orders to spare innocent people, and chances are those orders are directly from the King himself as well, or they have higher authority granted to them so even Xander or the other royals couldn't do anything.

Overall though, in the Nohr path Kamui fails more often than not and a big part of that is their idealism and hoping things will turn out okay despite time after time being proven wrong. By the end of it, Ryouma is dead, Takumi is dead, a bunch of people got killed in a pointless war he wasn't able to stop earlier even though the futures is slightly bright with Xander taking over. I don't really think Kamui comes out on top during that ending at all.

Also, Kamui's naivety bites them in the ass a few times. Such as when they trust Rontao (who obviously ends up betraying them despite everyone but Kamui understanding) and Garon who sends them on a suicide mission in chapter 7 if you side with Nohr and they don't even bother to try and secretly ask for help. If Garon wasn't such an overly evil dumbguy who gloats about his plan, Kamui probably wouldn't have gotten enough help and would've ended up overwhelmed and killed. His allies bail him out both times but if they weren't there then it would've been over for them. There might be more examples of this, if you could point them out I'd appreciate it.

In my opinion, Aqua breaks the story and triggers more flags to be considered a Mary Sue than Kamui does, despite her enjoyable support convos. And I think some people might agree with me there.

Ultimately its a combination of sloppy or average writing that feels like it was done by 3 different writers rather than just the 1. Characters aren't consistant across all three paths. Kamui is hyped up a little too much so I'll agree with Thane there but I simply just don't view them as a mary sue. They have two traits, and that's about it in my opinion. Their heritage, and their power. I don't think they break the story, nor are they perfect, generic, boring or flavourless. Certainly not the best, but not the worst.

But there you go. That's just what I think about Kamui/the story/characters.

[Sunsurge]

But a Mary Sue is more often than not made by bad writing. Honestly, a character who is boringly perfect and doesn't struggle with hardship and with "token" flaws are annoying. You're giving me the impression that you think Mary Sues don't exist in bad writing because that's just bad writing. I don't think that is so, and Mary Sues are more often than not something seen more often in bad writing.

Also, writing classes can only teach you so much. They'll teach you the basics of writing and some technicalities that writers should avoid. However, I don't think one can be a true writer until one stops adhering so much to writing classes. They are not the absolute truth, they are merely a guideline and a writer has to forge their own style and find out what they agree or disagree with. I think you should stop falling back on the "you can learn them in any writing class" spiel. Creative writing classes can give you an idea of what to do and what not to do, but they cannot teach people how to write for themselves.

I used to think that a Mary Sue could be defined by traits. But I realized that I didn't believe that much later on, as I wrote more and read more stories and fanfiction. A character can have most if not all of the traits of a Mary Sue, and yet still avoid being one if they're written well and realistically.

Is every character with a "special-sounding" name who is proficient in ten different languages and a virtuoso in at least five different musical instruments who has a beautiful singing voice and part of many different student organizations and is well-liked by their peers always a Mary Sue? No. In fact, there are people like this in real life. Very special people. What makes a character with all these traits a Mary Sue is how poorly they're written. Not the traits themselves.

No, I don't think that. I completely think Mary Sue's are found more often in bad writing. And they are usually, the result of bad writing. I just don't think every example of shitty character writing constitutes someone being called a Mary Sue.

Honestly, I do think it gives you a pretty good base. And for the record, I don't have spiel. I was writing long before I took any 'writing classes', and they were actually just electives, which I found super interesting because they doled out rules and names to things I had never even really considered. Granted, I spent most of the class arguing with the professor about how their 'rules' could scarcely apply in a blanket, because writing is more subjective than anything. I don't recall saying anything about writing classes teaching someone HOW to write. I scarcely believe that it can be taught in a classroom.

It was MORE the idea, that they gave a pretty clear as you said 'guideline'. I was merely drawing off that 'guideline' of what a Mary Sue is. Obviously there's multiple interpretations of it, and the meaning is going to be a little different to every person. I was mostly just stating the one I adhere to personally. And that I don't define 'universe-bending' as part of the Mary Sue definition. I don't think it's that difficult to grasp. I just think 'universe-bending' is a touch too broad because so many stories do it, but once again, that's how I define it/see it.

And lastly, I disagree and agree. I disagree because I do think a Mary Sue can most often be defined by their traits (and how their traits are written). But, I agree that it's not the whole story, because as with everything, there's always exceptions. Just in my experiences reading fan fiction and books, they most often fall back on those traits.

Is every character like that a Mary Sue? No. But are most characters like that a Mary Sue? Yes.

Edit: Despite all the words, I basically agree with your whole post, honestly. Except the whole 'wrapping a story around them', because I don't really consider that part of being a Mary Sue. And also, I think side characters are perfectly capable of being Mary Sue's (and actually are usually more in danger (imo)), and side characters basically never warp a story around them. Haha.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Sunsurge

[Sunwoo]

Of course not every instance of shitty character writing defines a Mary Sue. But which instances do and which instances do not are not necessarily objective. This is where some people will disagree. And honestly, in some cases (like with Kamui) there is no one right answer. As long as a person can define what a Mary Sue is, with their definition at least resembling the widely accepted definition of a Mary Sue, if they can justify why or why they do not think a certain character is a Mary Sue I'm fine with it.

The thing is, just because you don't define "universe-bending" as a trait of a Mary Sue, that doesn't mean other people will feel the same way. That doesn't mean you are right or the people who see it that way are wrong either. I do not feel that it's too broad of a statement, that characters who are guilty universe-bending beyond what's reasonable will stand out from those that aren't. But it's just my (and Thane's) view on it. If we can justify why we believe Kamui is a Mary Sue and why we believe these traits make him one, even if you may disagree with it we're justified to believe so. And I believe Thane has justified why he feels as such well.

Also, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on the traits thing. I think that more importantly than the traits is how they are handled and written into the character. Traits on their own don't mean anything unless they're actually portrayed in the narrative. Just like how one can say that a character is strong-willed and independent, but that means shit if all we ever see of them in-story is getting saved by someone else.

[Abysswalker25]

Agree to disagree about it then? I understand where people are coming from when they are saying Kamui is a sue but I myself do not consider him to be such because I have a different view of what qualifies as a mary sue. (Rhymes!)

[Sunwoo]

Agreeing to disagree with it is fine! No one here is trying to change anyone's opinion on whether they feel Kamui is a Mary Sue or not. A civil discussion on why we feel or do not feel he qualifies is all this topic was meant to be. We don't have to agree with one another's definitions of a Mary Sue, or what constitutes one, as long as we can respect where the other person is coming from.

[Tsuky]

I think it's a bit tricky to use the term "Mary Sue" on a self-insert avatar in a video game (which is bound to be affected by gameplay mechanics, such as marriage), but many of the reasons I find Kamui annoying is because of typical Sue characteristics (as defined for fanfiction) that are similar to the ones mentioned by Thane:

[spoiler=]

1) The INTENSE character worship. Everyone adores Kamui, and those who do not are either just completely evil or get called out wrong for it and eventually change (looking at you, Takumi). This especially shows in Conquest: how can Ryouma and Takumi still forgive Kamui after what happened to Hoshido? He/she didn't do anything to deserve their forgiveness. Also, many characters suffer in development due to the mandatory quality of being a Kamui fanboy/girl, most of the siblings in particular.

2) Being chosen by the Yatogami for pretty much no reason besides being the main character (but I guess being the Chosen One is hard to avoid in a game with a self-insert as a main character).

3) Why is Kamui, a naive and sheltered young royalty with no experience with war, the leader of whatever side he/she is leading? And Marx and Ryouma are just gonna go with it? Kamui and Aqua's "genius" plans already say a lot about their competence (or lack thereof) as military commanders. This kinda goes along with character worship.

4) Characters sometimes only talk about Kamui even when he/she is not there. The two examples that immediately come to my mind are the Ryouma/Marx and Ryouma/Camilla supports. C-A are entirely about talking to Kamui or talking about Kamui. (Seriously, do y'all not have lives outside of Kamui?) So as expected, Ryouma/Camilla's S support is one of the most contrived thing I've ever read >_<

So based on my own definition, I think Kamui is a Mary Sue that is done in an irritating way. Robin also had some Sue characteristics, but at least imagining myself to be in her shoes was at least a decently enjoyable experience. Imagining myself as Kamui is just unpleasant.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Tsuky

[Abysswalker25]

The sword thing is pretty common in fiction so I kind of let that slide. Seriously, there are a lot of special swords out there that have 'chosen one' wielders out of the blue. In fact, it happens pretty much all the time in Fire Emblem games.

[NekoKnight]

The sword thing is pretty common in fiction so I kind of let that slide. Seriously, there are a lot of special swords out there that have 'chosen one' wielders out of the blue. In fact, it happens pretty much all the time in Fire Emblem games.

Ryoma and Takumi got signature weapons too so it's not that special :/

[Tsuky]

Ryoma and Takumi got signature weapons too so it's not that special :/

But in their cases, they are the Hoshido princes, and the weapons they wield are passed down among Hoshidan royalty. In their supports with Shinonome and Kisaragi, they both mentioned that they will eventually pass the weapons down to them as well (although it's a shame that doesn't occur in terms of actual gameplay), which means that Ryouma and Takumi are not really "chosen." It makes less sense in Kamui's case, especially if he/she chooses Nohr. But the Chosen One thing isn't nearly my biggest gripe with Kamui, so I'll let it slide. The main character WILL get some kind of special treatment, after all :P

[Radiant head]

I think most of us can agree that a Mary Sue is a cliche, poorly written self-insert made to make a fanfiction author feel good about themselves.

Corrin/Kamui is a cliche, poorly written "self-insert" made to make the player feel better then themselves.

Even if you'd argue s/he's not a Mary Sue, s/he's pretty dang close. There roles are basically exactly the same.

Why'd I even make him my avatar I don't even know.

Yeah, the context is slightly different because this is a game pandering to the fan rather than fiction produced by said fan, but the outcome is the same. It's basically true for any self-insert character.

[arvilino]

The thing is, just because you don't define "universe-bending" as a trait of a Mary Sue, that doesn't mean other people will feel the same way. That doesn't mean you are right or the people who see it that way are wrong either. I do not feel that it's too broad of a statement, that characters who are guilty universe-bending beyond what's reasonable will stand out from those that aren't. But it's just my (and Thane's) view on it. If we can justify why we believe Kamui is a Mary Sue and why we believe these traits make him one, even if you may disagree with it we're justified to believe so. And I believe Thane has justified why he feels as such well.

I'm no writer but I think in this case it'd be kind silly to count universe simly bending in regards to Kamui being a Mary Sue. The choice you make in chapter 6 and the campaigns that follow necessitate Kamui's choice to impact the entirity of the world otherwise the choice would have no impact on the way the game progresses.

Though it isn't as though the Universe bends specifically to Corrin's will. I've been thinking about it and in Conquest in particular despite the sword, dragon powers, "leading the army"(though consider which 3 come around and slaughters the people who were spared) and all his or her allies liking him have absolutely no impact on the case that for 90-95% of the game Garron is running the show and at any point him, Ganz or Macbeth can act above any authority Corrin has.

Even in the story improvement thread I've seen people saying Kamui should have successfully turned Nohr against Garron at what would be a breakneck speed rather early on or stop Ganz or Macbeth earlier or things to make choosing Nohr appear better. Thinking about it these improvements would actually be wish fufillment, whereas having Garron and co. intervene and have the most power, authority and control in the story and not Corrin isn't very Mary Sue-like.

Edited August 23, 2015 by arvilino

[Iceaura39]

In my opinion, Corrin isn't quite a Sue, but he's pretty darn close. 

 

Conquest actually fixes his character a bit. He loses a bit of the naivete. Granted, he does make some dumb decisions, like letting Kaze join without ever considering the possibility of him (a ninja, mind you) being a spy or mole, and going against Kotaro for kidnapping Kagero. 

 

Also, this is completely unrelated, but why is it that when Conquest Corrin tries to spare lives in a war, he is called weak and cowardly, but when Hoshido Corrin doesn't, he is called bloodthirsty?

[Integrity]

cheers for that, truckie