"Un-Optimization" Thread

[Minischew]

We have an Optimization Thread, but I'm itching to see the opposite of that.

What is the worst way to employ a character? Which pairings kill a child's potential?

In essence, what are some things a player should avoid (from a gameplay perspective)?

For instance, I'm finding that Hinata/Felicia is a huge miss, in that Hisame completely wastes Felicia's Mag and ends up with mediocre stats.

[astrophys]

Well, stack -SPD mods together with characters who don't get Defensive Formation and don't have a particularly speedy class to compensate that would exploit their mods.

Consider Orochi with someone who has poor SPD mods and a kid with non-existent magic growth.

[Jisdo]

Marry Kamui with Gunter and enjoy Kanna having below average growths in every single stat.

[Eriotto]

Marry Kamui with Gunter and enjoy Kanna having below average growths in every single stat.

Don't even say anything about his growths please.

[Ebony]

We have an Optimization Thread, but I'm itching to see the opposite of that.

What is the worst way to employ a character? Which pairings kill a child's potential?

In essence, what are some things a player should avoid (from a gameplay perspective)?

For instance, I'm finding that Hinata/Felicia is a huge miss, in that Hisame completely wastes Felicia's Mag and ends up with mediocre stats.

Actually I'm curious, what about Hinata/Orochi? Is that anything bad?

[CrazyFiasco]

Actually I'm curious, what about Hinata/Orochi? Is that anything bad?

That would actually be worse than Felicia!Hisame, due to the crippling speed and unneeded magic Hisame gets. Imagine what Kanna would be like if a Femui with +Res/-Spd marries Orochi!Hisame...

Edited September 20, 2015 by CrazyFiasco

[Azz]

Any mother that either ruins Hisame's Spd or give him none is just not good.Also Belka and Rinka are pretty shitty moms unless they are mothering a tanky child like Ignis or Shinonome.

Really, pairings are actually kind of hard to mess up since kids just tend to be good and also a lot of Gen 1 characters are good by them selves without the need or marriage case in point Ryouma who needs little to no training after recruitment.

Also, Kanna if Mom/Dad is -Spd.Just no.

[Ebony]

Any mother that either ruins Hisame's Spd or give him none is just not good.Also Belka and Rinka are pretty shitty moms unless they are mothering a tanky child like Ignis or Shinonome.

Really, pairings are actually kind of hard to mess up since kids just tend to be good and also a lot of Gen 1 characters are good by them selves without the need or marriage case in point Ryouma who needs little to no training after recruitment.

Also, Kanna if Mom/Dad is -Spd.Just no.

Shit I can't remember, Subaki isn't -Spd right...? Or is he?

[CrazyFiasco]

Shit I can't remember, Subaki isn't -Spd right...? Or is he?

I believe Subaki has a -2 spd modifier

Edited September 20, 2015 by CrazyFiasco

[Ebony]

I believe Subaki does have a -2 spd modifier

FUCK WHY DO ALL OF THE HUSBANDS I WANT GOTTA BE SO SLOW

Nishiki it is then

[Water Mage]

FUCK WHY DO ALL OF THE HUSBANDS I WANT GOTTA BE SO SLOW

Nishiki it is then

Doesn't Nishiki have a -3 Skill modifier?

[SerenadeofWisdom]

Doesn't Nishiki have a -3 Skill modifier?

he does he needs someone to patch it up as good as they can.

[astrophys]

Long rambling in spoiler tags to save space on the page.

I'm similarly impacted by Tsubaki, not because I want [my character] to marry him (I don't) but because I want [my character] to marry HIS DAUGHTER, Matoi. And given how mod inheritance works, that means he passes on a -2 SPD mod to her, which then becomes -1 under the child bonus.

Thankfully, my hair-color and skill-set (red and Lance Fighter/Basara's Lancefaire and Breaking Sky) preferences for her come along with a mother (Hinoka) who gives +1 Spd, so she evens Matoi out to +0 Spd. So its not negative…. but its not positive either, which will end up limiting the SPD that my Kanna can obtain.

There's also the issue that the "waifu" that I like the most tends to have stat growths that really conflict with my own asset/flaw preferences…. I prefer being a magic type, but Matoi will have +0 MAG and something like a 15% mag growth, so that's going to conflict for Kanna…. she will at least substantially boost Kanna's HP growth, that said, although that will still only work out to something around +3 HP by 20/20.

I mean, objectively, as one who prefers magical characters, I really should be going for someone [purely from a gameplay standpoint, not from actually liking the character] like Nyx!Syalla or someone with a similar mod spread: She has +1 Str, +5 Mag, -2 Skl, +5 Spd, +1 Lck, -2 Def, +1 Res; this is a far better spread for a magically orientated Kanna than what Hinoka!Matoi offers: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +2 Res.

I mean, +MAG/-DEF Nyx!Syalla!Kanna would be +1 Str, +9 Mag, -2 Skl, +7 Spd, +0 Lck, -5 Def, +2 Res and could be quite the potent magical class cannon, while +MAG/-LCK Nyx!Syalla!Kanna would be +0 Str, +8 Mag, -2 Skl, +7 Spd, -2 Lck, -2 Def, +3 Res; with slightly less power but not being as fragile….

But as it is, going Hinoka!Matoi is REALLY unoptimal, yet I'd really prefer her:

+MAG/-DEF Hinoka!Kanna!Matoi: +1 Str, +4 Mag, +2 Skl, +2 Spd, -1 Lck, +0 Def, +3 Res

+MAG/-LCK Hinoka!Kanna!Matoi: +0 Str, +3 Mag, +2 Skl, +2 Spd, -3 Lck, +3 Def, +4 Res

No hugely impressive magic there, no hugely impressive speed. Although she does at least have good defensive stats, although those don't kill things.

Honestly, I would be better off with a different Matoi than Hinoka!Matoi if I go with Matoi to begin with, although i really like her hair color as it is; but she's unoptimal for my gameplay purposes if I'm honest with myself.

Example:

Sakura!Matoi: +0 Str, +3 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +0 Res

+MAG/-DEF Sakura!Matoi!Kanna: 0 Str, +7 Mag, +2 Skl, +2 Spd, -1 Lck +0 Def, +1 Res

+MAG/-LCK Sakura!Matoi!Kanna: -1 Str, +6 Mag, +2 Skl, +2 Spd, -3 Lck +3 Def, +2 Res

Nyx!Matoi: +0 Str, +4 Mag, +1 Skl, +1 Spd, -1 Lck, +2 Def, +1 Res

+MAG/-DEF Nyx!Matoi!Kanna: +0 Str, +8 Mag, +1 Skl, +3 Spd, -2 Lck, -1 Def, +2 Res

+MAG/-LCK Nyx!Matoi!Kanna: -1 Str, +7 Mag, +1 Skl, +3 Spd, -4 Lck, +2 Def, +3 Res

So yeah, there's that.

Edit: Response to SerenadeofWisdom; I don't think Kinu's SKL really needs to be all that patched up, provided we're talking caps; her class cap is 33 as Nine Tailed Fox, so she has lots of SKL already; she can afford to lose a bit.

Edited September 20, 2015 by astrophys

[CrazyFiasco]

Would Orochi!Grey be unoptimal for him?

[Water Mage]

Saizou has -2 spd modifier and Orochi has -2 spd modifier, which would mean Grey would have a -4 spd modifier...

Not what you want for a Ninja.

Yeah, not optimal, but then again I don't have the game so what do I know? Maybe a slow Grey would be useful...Yeah, right.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Water Mage

[Ebony]

Saizou has -2 spd modifier and Orochi has -2 spd modifier, which would mean Grey would have a -4 spd modifier...

Not what you want for a Ninja.

Yeah, not optimal, but then again I don't have the game so what do I know? Maybe a slow Grey would be useful...Yeah, right.

Well I have seen builds that are Orochi x Gurei that involves him, essentually, becoming a white mage type character.

[Water Mage]

Well I have seen builds that are Orochi x Gurei that involves him, essentually, becoming a white mage type character.

Now that I think about it, doesn't Grey's magic growth higher than his strenght growth? He's does seem to be better as a mage, you might onto something there.

[CrazyFiasco]

Saizou has -2 spd modifier and Orochi has -2 spd modifier, which would mean Grey would have a -4 spd modifier...

Not what you want for a Ninja.

Yeah, not optimal, but then again I don't have the game so what do I know? Maybe a slow Grey would be useful...Yeah, right.

Grey would end up with -3 spd mod, but it still doesn't help too much... I thought I read somewhere Orochi!Grey would be a good Basara option Edited September 20, 2015 by CrazyFiasco

[Thor Odinson]

Grey at least could get defensive formation through A+ Ignis and could run copycat healer or sth, so if you want to contain the slowness to just a few pairs Grey is one of the ones who can take it, both being able to run hybrid to take advantage of Orochi's mag and can actually get that skill that doesn't get him doubled.

Definitely not the worst person to put Orochi on, IMO.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Dark Paladin X]

Having Kaze marry someone with a negative -Luck modifier and/or negative -Speed modifier.

[Water Mage]

Grey at least could get defensive formation through A+ Ignis and could run copycat healer or sth, so if you want to contain the slowness to just a few pairs Grey is one of the ones who can take it, both being able to run hybrid to take advantage of Orochi's mag and can actually get that skill that doesn't get him doubled.

Definitely not the worst person to put Orochi on, IMO.

Grey would end up with -3 spd mod, but it still doesn't help too much... I thought I read somewhere Orochi!Grey would be a good Basara option

Maybe I was to quick to judge Orochi!Grey... Maybe I was to focused on Grey's base class, and didn't consider other classes.

This will teach to talk about games I don't own. I really messed up that one.

Back on topic, is it possible to Sakura and Oboro screw any child? I was looking at their modifiers, and they look very good, Sakura and Oboro seems to be really good moms. Also they seem to able to pass good classes and abilities such as Swallow Strike, Sun God and Extravagance.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Water Mage

[Ebony]

Doesn't Nishiki have a -3 Skill modifier?

Shit I think he'll be fine honestly. Well, he and Kinu respectively. Though this isn't the optimization thread so I'll stop talking about this... lmao....

[CrazyFiasco]

I'm sure Elise!Ignis isn't optimal, due to Elise and Benoit's stats differing a lot from each other

[SerenadeofWisdom]

Long rambling in spoiler tags to save space on the page.

I'm similarly impacted by Tsubaki, not because I want [my character] to marry him (I don't) but because I want [my character] to marry HIS DAUGHTER, Matoi. And given how mod inheritance works, that means he passes on a -2 SPD mod to her, which then becomes -1 under the child bonus.

Thankfully, my hair-color and skill-set (red and Lance Fighter/Basara's Lancefaire and Breaking Sky) preferences for her come along with a mother (Hinoka) who gives +1 Spd, so she evens Matoi out to +0 Spd. So its not negative…. but its not positive either, which will end up limiting the SPD that my Kanna can obtain.

There's also the issue that the "waifu" that I like the most tends to have stat growths that really conflict with my own asset/flaw preferences…. I prefer being a magic type, but Matoi will have +0 MAG and something like a 15% mag growth, so that's going to conflict for Kanna…. she will at least substantially boost Kanna's HP growth, that said, although that will still only work out to something around +3 HP by 20/20.

I mean, objectively, as one who prefers magical characters, I really should be going for someone [purely from a gameplay standpoint, not from actually liking the character] like Nyx!Syalla or someone with a similar mod spread: She has +1 Str, +5 Mag, -2 Skl, +5 Spd, +1 Lck, -2 Def, +1 Res; this is a far better spread for a magically orientated Kanna than what Hinoka!Matoi offers: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +2 Res.

I mean, +MAG/-DEF Nyx!Syalla!Kanna would be +1 Str, +9 Mag, -2 Skl, +7 Spd, +0 Lck, -5 Def, +2 Res and could be quite the potent magical class cannon, while +MAG/-LCK Nyx!Syalla!Kanna would be +0 Str, +8 Mag, -2 Skl, +7 Spd, -2 Lck, -2 Def, +3 Res; with slightly less power but not being as fragile….

But as it is, going Hinoka!Matoi is REALLY unoptimal, yet I'd really prefer her:

+MAG/-DEF Hinoka!Kanna!Matoi: +1 Str, +4 Mag, +2 Skl, +2 Spd, -1 Lck, +0 Def, +3 Res

+MAG/-LCK Hinoka!Kanna!Matoi: +0 Str, +3 Mag, +2 Skl, +2 Spd, -3 Lck, +3 Def, +4 Res

No hugely impressive magic there, no hugely impressive speed. Although she does at least have good defensive stats, although those don't kill things.

Honestly, I would be better off with a different Matoi than Hinoka!Matoi if I go with Matoi to begin with, although i really like her hair color as it is; but she's unoptimal for my gameplay purposes if I'm honest with myself.

Example:

Sakura!Matoi: +0 Str, +3 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +0 Res[/size]

+MAG/-DEF Sakura!Matoi!Kanna: 0 Str, +7 Mag, +2 Skl, +2 Spd, -1 Lck +0 Def, +1 Res[/size]

+MAG/-LCK Sakura!Matoi!Kanna: -1 Str, +6 Mag, +2 Skl, +2 Spd, -3 Lck +3 Def, +2 Res[/size]

Nyx!Matoi: [/size]+0 Str, +4 Mag, +1 Skl, +1 Spd, -1 Lck, +2 Def, +1 Res[/size]

+MAG/-DEF Nyx!Matoi!Kanna: [/size]+0 Str, +8 Mag, +1 Skl, +3 Spd, -2 Lck, -1 Def, +2 Res[/size]

+MAG/-LCK Nyx!Matoi!Kanna: [/size]-1 Str, +7 Mag, +1 Skl, +3 Spd, -4 Lck, +2 Def, +3 Res[/size]

So yeah, there's that. [/size]

[/size]

Edit: Response to SerenadeofWisdom; I don't think Kinu's SKL really needs to be all that patched up, provided we're talking caps; her class cap is 33 as Nine Tailed Fox, so she has lots of SKL already; she can afford to lose a bit. [/size]

good point Kinu has enough skill on her own also I think Sakura!Matoi is a great alternate for your mag asset you probably gonna have to A+ Syalla if you want Breaking Sky also Sakura's hair color is my second favorite for her almost matching her Canon hair color.

[astrophys]

Yeah, Kinu would have 33-3=30 Skil, which is still quite reasonable.

You do raise a good point about Sakura!Matoi… she also has superior availability than Hinoka!Matoi, in terms of how early the pairing can be created; Tsubaki and Sakura join in the same chapter and a chapter earlier than Hinoka in Hoshido…. and in Invisible Kingdom Hinoka doesn't show up until Ch. 16, so that's ages to have to wait.

Of course, Sakura is a healer, so you'd basically have to stick her in some guard stances with Tsubaki to boost his growth of support with her, but you could still probably pull it off. Or just let it take a longer time by attack stances and heals.

Sakura!Matoi loses Lancefaire, but she gets a lot more magic growth; I think its the average of Sakura and Matoi, which would make it 32.5%, but even if it worked like Awakening, it would be 28.333%. Whichever interpretation, its still substantially more magic growth; if my guesses are correct, +17.5% magic growth.

One interesting possibility is having her as a Shinrai Naginata (what we called a Shockstick in Awakening) user… while she doesn't get the Lancefaire like Hinoka would give, she DOES get an increased magic growth… (.325-.15) x 29 levels (10/0->20/0 -> 20/1 --> 20/20) would let her end up with +5.075 magic relative to Hinoka!Matoi's growths, ultimately offsetting the +5 damage that Shockstick would have granted… although at level 15 (when Lancefaire can be learned) Hinoka!Matoi would be briefly ahead, as the accumulate difference would be 4.375 MAG at that point.

Actually, Sakura!Matoi could end up as a nice Dark Falcon candidate; she gets Tomefaire access from her mother, regardless of buddy/marriage…

Max stats as Dark Falcon: 45 HP, 27 Str, 35 Mag, 30 Skl, 33 Spd, 32 Lck, 28 Def, 34 Res, B-rank lances, A-rank tomes

Although Galeforce is an anti-synergy with the Avatar's personal skill if he want to support Matoi… but the class itself could still be useful for leveraging the tomes….

I'll move the discussion to the optimization thread…

But back to un-optimzaton…. Orochi!Kisaragi has a pretty bad SPD mod… although he does get Basara….