General Warriors Thread: Persona 5 Scramble

[Fabulously Olivier]

I think it's an ambitious game, but fundamentally flawed in almost every respect. I can still get value out of it, being that I enjoy Musuo games a lot, but it's definitely a worse game than any other recent entry into the genre - even the ones I gave a lot of flak like the content-lite Arslan Musuo and the cringeworthy Fate Extella. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Etheus

[Jedi]

Really good deal for All Stars here, if you've been considering it. This is your chance.

[Etrurian emperor]

The Samurai Warriors characters really turned me off on that one. Its exclusively filled with SW characters I really hate or find to bland to care about. But having William Adam's from Nioh was a really cool touch.

Some news from the voice actor front. 

Max Chase isn't the first English voice actor that spoke out about the experience but he puts it quite well and seems like a stand up guy.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dynastywarriors/comments/800mrr/hi_my_name_is_maxwell_chase_i_voiced_weis_li_dian/

 

[Jedi]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The Samurai Warriors characters really turned me off on that one. Its exclusively filled with SW characters I really hate or find to bland to care about. But having William Adam's from Nioh was a really cool touch.

While I might agree on the SW choices not being particularly the best I think the cast is a nice varied one overall, I'm getting into Nights of Azure and Deception, plus being a huge Ninja Gaiden and DoA fan its nice to see them in that setting again. 

Plus of course the classics like Zhao Yun and Lu Bu even if i'm not the absolute biggest fans of either its always fun to see them around.

[Tryhard]

On 18/02/2018 at 4:29 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

So opinions on DW9 seem rather...uh mixed. People either like it or really, really hate the game.

What do the people on here think?

The game has a lot of flaws, which makes me sad, and I don't really try to defend certain aspects of it.

But certain people who have influence missed the mark on it, even someone who constantly props himself up as a "defender of Dynasty Warriors" like Jim Sterling said a bunch of questionable things in the videos he did on it, like maintaining that in DW9 you can just run past everyone and kill the general, when you are able to do that the entire series but its different this time because x y and z, open world. It doesn't make sense, the series always had this issue.

That, and complaining about a) the change in combat system, saying the old way was better. Really? There's a reason the series was derided as a "spam triangle and square" simulator for its entire existance, and they had a point. And b) the voice acting is the worst its ever been, including DW3 in that because the DW3 voice acting is "funny". Yes, it's funny, and the new English voice acting is not good across the board mostly, but there is a certain level of badness DW3's contained that can't be replicated. And c) that even Dynasty Warriors 6 was better - this one I've just got to say, you're having a laugh if you think that even with this games numerous problems. You think someone who went on to complain for five minutes about the clonage of characters would have a massive problem with Dynasty Warriors 6 in the same way. There was other things, of course, but the fact that he paraded himself as "one of the only people willing to stick up for this series" just made me want to say, fuck off.

Jim's the sort of person that would be content with them just making DW8 over and over again until the series died, and its safe to say that the series already stagnated. It's unfortunate that this entry has so many problems, but the videos he made on it had a lot of inaccurate points in them even if some others were true.

I don't really want to be so negative, though. I wish the game had more polish and more time to work these things out if they were willing to go in a different direction. Otherwise, I'm having some fun when I can play it.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Tryhard

[Etrurian emperor]

16 hours ago, Tryhard said:

Sterling said a bunch of questionable things in the videos he did on it, like maintaining that in DW9 you can just run past everyone and kill the general, when you are able to do that the entire series but its different this time because x y and z, open world. It doesn't make sense, the series always had this issue.

Now I haven't played DW9 but I think that statement refers to the grappling hook. In DW8 for example a stage might end if you defeat the boss but since the gate of the enemy camp only opens at the very end of the map you can't just rush in and kill him. But if you can just climb over the walls then reaching the boss gets a whole lot easier. 

[Tryhard]

Sure, but it's not running to a few generals to unlock the way to the last objective took a long time. Just as long, really, and in most cases you can immediately just ignore everything and bee-line there.

[Jedi]

1 hour ago, Tryhard said:

Sure, but it's not running to a few generals to unlock the way to the last objective took a long time. Just as long, really, and in most cases you can immediately just ignore everything and bee-line there.

It's funny because he's been complaining about "stagnation" in his videos of like All Stars and the series at large. 

I think even his comment on 9 being the absolute worst is false to a huge degree.

[Fabulously Olivier]

On 2/27/2018 at 1:42 PM, Jedi said:

It's funny because he's been complaining about "stagnation" in his videos of like All Stars and the series at large. 

I think even his comment on 9 being the absolute worst is false to a huge degree.

I think you're making a logical jump. Saying "this is the wrong direction" or "the open world has ruined this franchise" is not at all the same as saying that he wants the franchise to stagnate.

Innovation is not inherently good. Innovation must be handled intelligently and with the appropriate finesse for it to be good. Hell, some of gaming's most enduring, beloved franchises (like Mario) are the result of small, intelligent iteration over decades rather than massive leaps. 

And that is your opinion as to whether a statement on DW9 being the lowpoint of the series is false.. Personally, not only do I think that Dynasty Warriors 9 is the worst game in the franchise (even compared to previous spinoff entries that I disliked, such as the content-lite Arslan Musuo)... I think it's a strong contender for the worst AAA game of the year. 

On 2/26/2018 at 6:48 PM, Tryhard said:

The game has a lot of flaws, which makes me sad, and I don't really try to defend certain aspects of it.

But certain people who have influence missed the mark on it, even someone who constantly props himself up as a "defender of Dynasty Warriors" like Jim Sterling said a bunch of questionable things in the videos he did on it, like maintaining that in DW9 you can just run past everyone and kill the general, when you are able to do that the entire series but its different this time because x y and z, open world. It doesn't make sense, the series always had this issue.

That, and complaining about a) the change in combat system, saying the old way was better. Really? There's a reason the series was derided as a "spam triangle and square" simulator for its entire existance, and they had a point. And b) the voice acting is the worst its ever been, including DW3 in that because the DW3 voice acting is "funny". Yes, it's funny, and the new English voice acting is not good across the board mostly, but there is a certain level of badness DW3's contained that can't be replicated. And c) that even Dynasty Warriors 6 was better - this one I've just got to say, you're having a laugh if you think that even with this games numerous problems. You think someone who went on to complain for five minutes about the clonage of characters would have a massive problem with Dynasty Warriors 6 in the same way. There was other things, of course, but the fact that he paraded himself as "one of the only people willing to stick up for this series" just made me want to say, fuck off.

Jim's the sort of person that would be content with them just making DW8 over and over again until the series died, and its safe to say that the series already stagnated. It's unfortunate that this entry has so many problems, but the videos he made on it had a lot of inaccurate points in them even if some others were true.

I don't really want to be so negative, though. I wish the game had more polish and more time to work these things out if they were willing to go in a different direction. Otherwise, I'm having some fun when I can play it.

He may have been off the mark in saying that there has not been an issue with rushing directly to bosses in prior games, but the statement is also not without truth. There is a problem with boss rushing in DW9. It's a huge problem, and it's exacerbated to a degree that is more severe than prior games in the series. Factually speaking, every single mission and side mission in DW9 can be approached via rushing directly for the boss targets, and there is little incentive to engage in the 1 vs. 1,000 combat this series is known for. Rewards for killing non-named officers and soldiers are pitiful, just to name the largest contributing factor to this.

 

The old system is better. It was so much better. Dynasty Warriors 9 has 3 combos per character. THREE. And all 3 of them do the same thing. One stuns. One lifts. One knocks down. On every.... single.... character. Prior games had more combos. Prior games had longer combo strings. Prior games had combos that served different purposes, rather than all being slight variations of "crowd control the enemy until they die." And that's all Dynasty Warriors 9 is. Trigger stunlock -> Flows -> Trigger Stunlock -> Flows until the boss is killed by a QTE prompt (eww, that's just gross) or has dodged away. Or if they're giving you the slightest bit of trouble, trigger your cooldown trigger or musuo to continue the beatdown. It's downright mindnumbing. 

 

I don't care about the voice acting one way or the other. It's the most minor of the game's many issues by far. But I will say, this one is not only noticeably worse than normal, but characters are also frequently, blatantly miscast. 

 

If you have to justify this game's existence by comparing it to Dynasty Warriors 6, you aren't starting with a strong argument, buddy.

 

Also, he is one of the few critics willing to stand out for this series. That's just a fact. Dynasty Warriors and Musuo games as a whole tend to be so commonly and undeservedly derided by the press at large, that to like one is nothing short of a hit to one's credibility among their peers. That doesn't make him the only Dynasty Warriors defender, but it does make him the defender who most stakes his critical credibility and image on that defense. He doesn't suddenly lose that card because he doesn't like this horrible excuse of a game.

 

As with Jedi, I will say that you're making a logical leap in claiming that he wants stagnation. There are multiple avenues for a series to iterate (or even innovate) intelligently on a formula. People who buy Dynasty Warriors generally expect a certain formula, but that does not mean that they expect the same content, exact same mechanics, story beats, progression systems, etc. There is so much room for this series to evolve without completely abandoning the established stage format to chase the open world trend.

• They can evolve their combat with additional combos. 
• They can take inspiration from other successful action games, such as Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Nier Automata, or Dark Souls/Bloodborne for examples of combat systems that are better received by the general gaming community. You can damn well bet that I would throw money at a Warriors game with Devil May Cry inspired combat.
• They can take inspiration from their own spinoff games, such as equippable skills from FE Warriors or the progression system of Hyrule/FE Warriors.
• They can improve the tactical aspects of the game with better unit ordering, AI, and squad mechanics.
• They can focus entire games on singular arcs of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms storyline with greater detail on the individual stories and characters within. I would certainly want that.
• They could reinvent their stages for once instead of committing to so much content recycling (which Jim himself has recently criticized them for).
• They could embrace what-if scenarios with full games.
• They could add competitive online stages.
• They could invent new objective types.

 

The list goes on and on. There is so much they can do with this franchise to freshen it up without utterly changing its identity. 

 

Fact is, this game wasn't innovative. I even take back my remark about it being ambitious. Just laying out small groups of soldiers and camps with copy paste trees in an open world isn't ambitious. Open worlds aren't selling points; they are mechanics which need to be justified, perhaps more so than any other mechanic. Dynasty Warriors 9 utterly failed to justify its open world, and every single aspect of its core identity took a hit for it. Battles are smaller and less structured. Performance has taken a nosedive. Travel times are embarassing. And even the few mechanics that were added to "justify" the open world (namely, hunting, fishing, gathering, and crafting) were implemented so poorly as to actually detract from the overall experience. 

 

I can't defend this game. I certainly tried to play for dozens of hours in search of redeeming value, but I could find none. I hate this game.

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Etheus

[Tryhard]

56 minutes ago, Etheus said:

He may have been off the mark in saying that there has not been an issue with rushing directly to bosses in prior games, but the statement is also not without truth. There is a problem with boss rushing in DW9. It's a huge problem, and it's exacerbated to a degree that is more severe than prior games in the series. Factually speaking, every single mission and side mission in DW9 can be approached via rushing directly for the boss targets, and there is little incentive to engage in the 1 vs. 1,000 combat this series is known for. Rewards for killing non-named officers and soldiers are pitiful, just to name the largest contributing factor to this.

There was little incentive to kill 1000's of NPCs before. You just feel compelled to do so due to small battle areas. If you consider the placebo of being in more enclosed battles somehow compelling you to murder every enemy on the map, then sure, I guess. And I did it too - I like stopping to kill everything on the screen - but this is some bullshit.

The whole reward system is definitely something that can be improved, but that's more of a thing that could be fixed rather than a fundamental problem with the game.

56 minutes ago, Etheus said:

The old system is better. It was so much better. Dynasty Warriors 9 has 3 combos per character. THREE. And all 3 of them do the same thing. One stuns. One lifts. One knocks down. On every.... single.... character. Prior games had more combos. Prior games had longer combo strings. Prior games had combos that served different purposes, rather than all being slight variations of "crowd control the enemy until they die." And that's all Dynasty Warriors 9 is. Trigger stunlock -> Flows -> Trigger Stunlock -> Flows until the boss is killed by a QTE prompt (eww, that's just gross) or has dodged away. Or if they're giving you the slightest bit of trouble, trigger your cooldown trigger or musuo to continue the beatdown. It's downright mindnumbing. 

Combos that served different purposes? I guess me just using the same attack over and over again to easily win in the past was just my imagination. There was no need to swap what you were doing up, and that's what got the series blasted for a very long time understandably as a mash square simulator which I understand riles fans up, but it's kind of true on a fundamental level. I'm not saying this new system is the end all be all of solving this inherent problem, I'm just saying it's always been a problem and I think you're going to have a hard time saying otherwise. More combos would be nice, but what good is more combos if it's still not pushing you towards actually having to use them?

56 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I don't care about the voice acting one way or the other. It's the most minor of the game's many issues by far. But I will say, this one is not only noticeably worse than normal, but characters are also frequently, blatantly miscast. 

Agreed, though I like some voices. It's a shame that from what one of the voice actor's said themselves they didn't really have the proper preparation to take it on.

56 minutes ago, Etheus said:

If you have to justify this game's existence by comparing it to Dynasty Warriors 6, you aren't starting with a strong argument, buddy.

Once again, I said up front I wasn't going to be overly defending this game, but Dynasty Warriors 6 will still remain worse. It's not as if I said I consider it a strong entry. But Dynasty Warriors 6 is somehow rehabiliated? Fuck that.

56 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Also, he is one of the few critics willing to stand out for this series. That's just a fact. Dynasty Warriors and Musuo games as a whole tend to be so commonly and undeservedly derided by the press at large, that to like one is nothing short of a hit to one's credibility among their peers. That doesn't make him the only Dynasty Warriors defender, but it does make him the defender who most stakes his critical credibility and image on that defense. He doesn't suddenly lose that card because he doesn't like this horrible excuse of a game.

I don't care if he was even the only one that "stands up" for Warriors games in the past, it doesn't make everything he speaks about the series gospel truth. He's willing to stand up for it when it does it the way he likes, and that's rigidly doing the thing the series has always done. And I did say he did have some points that definitely are the case in those videos - but he also said things that were flat out inaccurate - him disliking the game I overall don't really care about.

For what it's worth, I never thought Jim had credibility when it came to the Warriors series even before this because I flat out disagreed with his arguments about it... or in general.

56 minutes ago, Etheus said:

As with Jedi, I will say that you're making a logical leap in claiming that he wants stagnation. There are multiple avenues for a series to iterate (or even innovate) intelligently on a formula. People who buy Dynasty Warriors generally expect a certain formula, but that does not mean that they expect the same content, exact same mechanics, story beats, progression systems, etc. There is so much room for this series to evolve without completely abandoning the established stage format to chase the open world trend.

• They can evolve their combat with additional combos. 
• They can take inspiration from other successful action games, such as Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Nier Automata, or Dark Souls/Bloodborne for examples of combat systems that are better received by the general gaming community. You can damn well bet that I would throw money at a Warriors game with Devil May Cry inspired combat.
• They can take inspiration from their own spinoff games, such as equippable skills from FE Warriors or the progression system of Hyrule/FE Warriors.
• They can improve the tactical aspects of the game with better unit ordering, AI, and squad mechanics.
• They can focus entire games on singular arcs of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms storyline with greater detail on the individual stories and characters within. I would certainly want that.
• They could reinvent their stages for once instead of committing to so much content recycling (which Jim himself has recently criticized them for).
• They could embrace what-if scenarios with full games.
• They could add competitive online stages.
• They could invent new objective types.

The list goes on and on. There is so much they can do with this franchise to freshen it up without utterly changing its identity. 

And you can damn well bet there would be a bunch of people pissed that the next Warriors game was to feature Devil May Cry style combat.

Yes, they can do a lot of things. I personally don't think the decision to try going open world was a particularly good one, and it's the thing I agree most with Jim on, despite him being hyperbolic. Now we'll see where it goes in the future, but what I said is that Jim makes arguments against the series stagnating in theory, but he would be fine if the series remained in the same state it does now, making very small tweaks like the what-if scenarios and just releasing DW8 over and over again. And this is Koei, so you know they like mostly making incremental changes. Jim's been fine it with before despite talking out the side of his mouth.

56 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Fact is, this game wasn't innovative. I even take back my remark about it being ambitious. Just laying out small groups of soldiers and camps with copy paste trees in an open world isn't ambitious. Open worlds aren't selling points; they are mechanics which need to be justified, perhaps more so than any other mechanic. Dynasty Warriors 9 utterly failed to justify its open world, and every single aspect of its core identity took a hit for it. Battles are smaller and less structured. Performance has taken a nosedive. Travel times are embarassing. And even the few mechanics that were added to "justify" the open world (namely, hunting, fishing, gathering, and crafting) were implemented so poorly as to actually detract from the overall experience. 

I don't think it's "innovative" either, but that word has long since lost all meaning. Everyone does like to rattle against open worlds right now, as if 'linear' games can't have their own problems. The series has had constrictive feeling maps for years that guide you down a set path and are generally not very interesting. I get that they may be more "structured," but not overly so. 

The open world elements are weaker, and it's the thing I would criticise most fervently. I would have waited for more time for it to be released if they were willing to do it right - and if they decide to roll it all up and go back to smaller hack n' slash entries, they could do that, but they could also attempt to actually improve what they've tried.

56 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I can't defend this game. I certainly tried to play for dozens of hours in search of redeeming value, but I could find none. I hate this game.

That's fine.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Tryhard

[Jedi]

While Jim Sterling has some good points I utterly despise the man and wish he wasn't the face of "Warriors" to such a huge degree, I find him just as creditable as IGN. Yet people find him to be the absolute gospel, a good example is when he criticized DW8s weapons and movesets not being cool enough and people jumped on that bandwagon until they played it themselves.

[Soledai]

4 minutes ago, Jedi said:

While Jim Sterling has some good points I utterly despise the man and wish he wasn't the face of "Warriors" to such a huge degree, I find him just as creditable as IGN. Yet people find him to be the absolute gospel, a good example is when he criticized DW8s weapons and movesets not being cool enough and people jumped on that bandwagon until they played it themselves.

He's the face of warriors? I've never even heard of him until DW9, more specifically, until 2 weeks ago.

Wow.

Also @Etheus I was looking at your list of possible improvements that could be made and it left me with a question; How many of, or which rather, musou games have you played?

[Tryhard]

4 minutes ago, Soledai said:

He's the face of warriors? I've never even heard of him until DW9, more specifically, until 2 weeks ago.

Wow.

Well, the face of it for the mainstream reviewers - since Warriors gets trashed in general reviews, he was always seen as one of the few there who was going to "stick up for it."

11 minutes ago, Jedi said:

While Jim Sterling has some good points I utterly despise the man and wish he wasn't the face of "Warriors" to such a huge degree, I find him just as creditable as IGN. Yet people find him to be the absolute gospel, a good example is when he criticized DW8s weapons and movesets not being cool enough and people jumped on that bandwagon until they played it themselves.

And then complained about how DW9 doesn't have the DW8 decloned weapons despite criticising them previously.

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 hours ago, Tryhard said:

There was little incentive to kill 1000's of NPCs before. You just feel compelled to do so due to small battle areas. If you consider the placebo of being in more enclosed battles somehow compelling you to murder every enemy on the map, then sure, I guess. And I did it too - I like stopping to kill everything on the screen - but this is some bullshit.

Fair enough. But I will say that recent entries into the genre have been better about this in general. FE Warriors in particular essentially forces you to optimize KO count and objectives to receive the best rewards. 

The whole reward system is definitely something that can be improved, but that's more of a thing that could be fixed rather than a fundamental problem with the game.

Right. That can be fixed. The largest issues (such as the open world implementation), unfortunately, can't be fixed with a patch.

Combos that served different purposes? I guess me just using the same attack over and over again to easily win in the past was just my imagination. There was no need to swap what you were doing up, and that's what got the series blasted for a very long time understandably as a mash square simulator which I understand riles fans up, but it's kind of true on a fundamental level. I'm not saying this new system is the end all be all of solving this inherent problem, I'm just saying it's always been a problem and I think you're going to have a hard time saying otherwise. More combos would be nice, but what good is more combos if it's still not pushing you towards actually having to use them?

Different hitboxes, timings, damage outputs. Some combos are naturally more suited to crowd killing and others towards boss takedowns. It's certainly better than having three combos which all perform crowd control. I was not arguing that the old system was perfect or even particularly good, but this is not the solution. This is one step forward, ten steps back.

Agreed, though I like some voices. It's a shame that from what one of the voice actor's said themselves they didn't really have the proper preparation to take it on.

Once again, I said up front I wasn't going to be overly defending this game, but Dynasty Warriors 6 will still remain worse. It's not as if I said I consider it a strong entry. But Dynasty Warriors 6 is somehow rehabiliated? Fuck that.

Again, that's a leap of logic. I was not claiming that DW6 was good or in any way redeemed. I'm just saying that every defense I've seen of this game has essentially amounted to "it's better than DW6," "DW6 was just as bad," "this game isn't that bad," or "it's different, and that's why you don't like it" without any actual substantive argument to back it up.

I don't care if he was even the only one that "stands up" for Warriors games in the past, it doesn't make everything he speaks about the series gospel truth. He's willing to stand up for it when it does it the way he likes, and that's rigidly doing the thing the series has always done. And I did say he did have some points that definitely are the case in those videos - but he also said things that were flat out inaccurate - him disliking the game I overall don't really care about.

For what it's worth, I never thought Jim had credibility when it came to the Warriors series even before this because I flat out disagreed with his arguments about it... or in general.

Again, let's not assume that I take his words on the franchise to be gospel truth. I agree with him on most counts regarding this game because well... fuck this game, but that doesn't imply that I necessarily share his opinions on the general franchise or genre. Personally, I don't even mind the Empires and XL editions; I like them even.

And you can damn well bet there would be a bunch of people pissed that the next Warriors game was to feature Devil May Cry style combat.

Any change will piss off someone. However, a change that is done well and fits the overall formula will eventually be received well in the long term future. When I say "take inspirations from Devil May Cry," I mean to improve and incentivize dodging, speed up combat, increase combo variety, and massively improve on aerial combos. Along with a style meter of course, which would be a perfect fit for this wonderfully cheesy genre. 

Yes, they can do a lot of things. I personally don't think the decision to try going open world was a particularly good one, and it's the thing I agree most with Jim on, despite him being hyperbolic. Now we'll see where it goes in the future, but what I said is that Jim makes arguments against the series stagnating in theory, but he would be fine if the series remained in the same state it does now, making very small tweaks like the what-if scenarios and just releasing DW8 over and over again. And this is Koei, so you know they like mostly making incremental changes. Jim's been fine it with before despite talking out the side of his mouth.

People generally complain when something stands out as negative to them, while positives are mostly taken for granted. That doesn't just apply to Jim. That applies to everyone. Hell, that's the life blood of any gaming forum. I would be interested in seeing what was so hyperbolic about Jim's video. The term hyperbolic is repeatedly thrown out against any criticism of the game and I have never seen it quantified with any sort of substance. I frankly agreed with almost everything from my own experience. The open world was too large and the formula didn't translate well to the open world. The hunting really is embarassing, and while I've never seen tigers clip and stick on terrain like that in my play experience, I did witness entire groups of tigers disappear into thin air multiple times during casual, infrequent hunts. The gathering/crafting really is poorly done and pointless. And the grapple hook really is a problem.

I don't think it's "innovative" either, but that word has long since lost all meaning. Everyone does like to rattle against open worlds right now, as if 'linear' games can't have their own problems. The series has had constrictive feeling maps for years that guide you down a set path and are generally not very interesting. I get that they may be more "structured," but not overly so. 

Linear games are easier to implement effectively. They have their own problems, but a badly done open world destroys the game as a whole. And I am not one to rail against open worlds on principle. The Witcher 3 is one of my favorite games of all time, after all. 

The open world elements are weaker, and it's the thing I would criticise most fervently. I would have waited for more time for it to be released if they were willing to do it right - and if they decide to roll it all up and go back to smaller hack n' slash entries, they could do that, but they could also attempt to actually improve what they've tried.

I would personally prefer them to make this into a different spinoff series if that is their intention. I'm not one to say that a design can't work just because it didn't work the first time. They can start by making the open world, without any exaggeration on my part, one tenth the size that it is in Dynasty Warriors 9 and go from there. A small, content rich open world is better than a big, empty one.

That's fine.

Why, thank you.

In bold.

2 hours ago, Jedi said:

While Jim Sterling has some good points I utterly despise the man and wish he wasn't the face of "Warriors" to such a huge degree, I find him just as creditable as IGN. Yet people find him to be the absolute gospel, a good example is when he criticized DW8s weapons and movesets not being cool enough and people jumped on that bandwagon until they played it themselves.

You assume that people are a hivemind. One can like, even agree with a critic without taking their every word as gospel truth. Personally, he's one of a handful of critics I listen to regularly. I like his persona and his comedic style. I like what he has to say about the state of the industry. I just tend to disagree with his taste in video games - mostly. He's far too generous to certain indie games for my taste - namely those that are most art than game. In terms of critics that actually line up with my taste in games, I'm much more like Angry Joe.

1 hour ago, Soledai said:

Also @Etheus I was looking at your list of possible improvements that could be made and it left me with a question; How many of, or which rather, musou games have you played?

I live to please.

DW8 XL- 

My introduction to the series. Genuinely loved it. My favorite characters are Xu Shu, Xiahou Dun, Zhou Yu, Lu Meng, Cao Pi, Zhao Yun, and Zhong Hui, by the way.

Sengoku Basaara - Samurai Heroes -

Loved the over the top setting. Prefer their interpretations of characters to Samurai Warriors for the most part. Loved the characters. Found the combat a bit lacking and janky.

Arslan The Warriors of Legend -

Loved the art style, music, characters, and setting. Hated the lack of content, small roster, combat, and constant strict ranking timers on every little objective.

Samurai Warriors 4

Love it for the most part, but I do tend to hate several of their characters, especially anyone who is silly to the point of completely breaking immersion (namely Koshoho and Motochika).

Warriors Orochi 3

Not a whole lot of complaints here. It's a good game with a large roster and I generally had a great time with it, though I don't really like being forced into playing certain characters or ranking up certain supports/bonds to unlock other characters.

Dragon Quest Heroes

Been playing this one a little at a time. I'm not a huge fan of the Dragon Quest franchise, so the aesthetic doesn't actually appeal to me, but it's mechanically okay. Not exactly my cup of tea, but a good game in its own right.

Hyrule Warriors

Completely blew my mind. It's such a huge step up from anything that came before it.

Fate Extella: The Umbral Star

I know this one isn't by Omegaforce, but it is aping their style. And I hated it. The combat was fine, but I hated the sci-fi MMO take on the Fate setting, the cringe-inducing fanservice story, the visually confusing bright neon maps, and the invasion mechanic that had bases taken across the map by constantly respawning flying reinforcement units. This was my most hated game in the genre before Dynasty Warriors 9.

Dynasty Warriors 9

I've made my thoughts clear. Fuck this game.

Fire Emblem Warriors

UI, game crashing, and roster issues aside, I really love Fire Emblem Warriors. Mechanically speaking, I think it's the best Musuo game yet. I think it's on par with Hyrule Warriors, and both have seen extensive playtime from me. 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Etheus

[Tryhard]

14 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Again, that's a leap of logic. I was not claiming that DW6 was good or in any way redeemed. I'm just saying that every defense I've seen of this game has essentially amounted to "it's better than DW6," "DW6 was just as bad," "this game isn't that bad," or "it's different, and that's why you don't like it" without any actual substantive argument to back it up.

It was in reference to Jim saying that even though DW6 was controversial, it was still way better than DW9. It was directly in response to that, I wasn't bringing it up myself or defending it by comparing it with DW6 before someone else did it for me.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Just now, Tryhard said:

It was in reference to Jim saying that even though DW6 was controversial, it was still way better than DW9. It was directly in response to that, I wasn't bringing it up myself or defending it by comparing it with DW6 before someone else did it for me.

It's not necessarily an unfair statement in either direction.

 

DW6 had worse combat, but DW9's open world has impacted it in immense, tragic ways in most regards. At least in a standard DW game, there is some semblance of production value and events/objectives tend to have some sense of gravity and immediacy which is just not present in DW9.

 

I can see DW6 being called worse. I can see DW9 being called worse. Neither are good, and there are fair arguments to be made for either being the series' lowest point.

[Jedi]

47 minutes ago, Etheus said:

In bold.

You assume that people are a hivemind. One can like, even agree with a critic without taking their every word as gospel truth. Personally, he's one of a handful of critics I listen to regularly. I like his persona and his comedic style. I like what he has to say about the state of the industry. I just tend to disagree with his taste in video games - mostly. He's far too generous to certain indie games for my taste - namely those that are most art than game. In terms of critics that actually line up with my taste in games, I'm much more like Angry Joe.

I live to please.

DW8 XL- 

My introduction to the series. Genuinely loved it. My favorite characters are Xu Shu, Xiahou Dun, Zhou Yu, Lu Meng, Cao Pi, Zhao Yun, and Zhong Hui, by the way.

Sengoku Basaara - Samurai Heroes -

Loved the over the top setting. Prefer their interpretations of characters to Samurai Warriors for the most part. Loved the characters. Found the combat a bit lacking and janky.

Samurai Warriors 4

Love it for the most part, but I do tend to hate several of their characters, especially anyone who is silly to the point of completely breaking immersion (namely Koshoho and Motochika).

Warriors Orochi 3

Not a whole lot of complaints here. It's a good game with a large roster and I generally had a great time with it, though I don't really like being forced into playing certain characters or ranking up certain supports/bonds to unlock other characters.

Dragon Quest Heroes

Been playing this one a little at a time. I'm not a huge fan of the Dragon Quest franchise, so the aesthetic doesn't actually appeal to me, but it's mechanically okay. Not exactly my cup of tea, but a good game in its own right.

Hyrule Warriors

Completely blew my mind. It's such a huge step up from anything that came before it.

Fire Emblem Warriors

UI, game crashing, and roster issues aside, I really love Fire Emblem Warriors. Mechanically speaking, I think it's the best Musuo game yet. I think it's on par with Hyrule Warriors, and both have seen extensive playtime from me. 

I removed some I don't have experience with but, I still think FE:W and HW have quite a ways to go before they can match 8XL, Orochi 3, DW5 or SW2. (And by extension of these two Orochi 1). FE:W got close but it falls short in a number of aspects.

Sengoku Basara is Capcom not Koei ftr.

DQH is an interesting breath of fresh air because it half focuses on tower defense.

I'll go more into detail on why if you wish when I get off work.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Jedi

[Fabulously Olivier]

7 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I removed some I don't have experience with but, I still think FE:W and HW have quite a ways to go before they can match 8XL, Orochi 3, DW5 or SW2. (And by extension of these two Orochi 1).

Sengoku Basara is Capcom not Koei ftr.

DQH is an interesting breath of fresh air because it half focuses on tower defense.

I'll go more into detail on why if you wish when I get off work.

I can see your case. I don't agree with it, but fair enough.

 

I was aware that Sengoku Basaara was Capcom. I lumped it into the genre while neglecting to mention the developer/publisher. My opinion on it stands.

 

And I like Dragon Quest Heroes, despite what I said. I agree. It's a breath of fresh air. I really like the tower defense mechanics. It's just the combat that doesn't click with me. I would personally prefer multiple smoother, more fluid combos over a single combo chain and some mana-cost skills. 

[Jedi]

18 hours ago, Etheus said:

I can see your case. I don't agree with it, but fair enough.

 

I was aware that Sengoku Basaara was Capcom. I lumped it into the genre while neglecting to mention the developer/publisher. My opinion on it stands.

 

And I like Dragon Quest Heroes, despite what I said. I agree. It's a breath of fresh air. I really like the tower defense mechanics. It's just the combat that doesn't click with me. I would personally prefer multiple smoother, more fluid combos over a single combo chain and some mana-cost skills. 

Thats fair for DQH, now my reasoning for putting the games I did over FEW and HW, are fairly simple really. 

Vareity, there are multitudes of differing objectives and little side things you need to do in most of the maps of these games, theres also the fact that theres more maps to play, and more styles to explore them with. 

FEW and HW have alot of content but it turns fairly samey through History Mode/Adventure Map, the stories also don't take advantage like DW/WO/SW do with their maps to make some unique objectives or experiences, although FEW does so around... 3 times, and HW about once.

[Etrurian emperor]

Warrior Orochi 3 just got announced! 

Um.....wait what? I definitely recall Warrior Orochi 3 coming out years ago and being the best of the Warrior games. Koei can be so weird with their names. 

[BrightBow]

What's the story behind WO2 being known as WO3 internationally anyway? Did the localisation use up the name Warriors Orochi 2 on some sort of of WO1: Extreme Legends or something like that.

Edited March 17, 2018 by BrightBow

[Tryhard]

9 hours ago, BrightBow said:

What's the story behind WO2 being known as WO3 internationally anyway? Did the localisation use up the name Warriors Orochi 2 on some sort of of WO1: Extreme Legends or something like that.

Warriors Orochi 2 was subtitled in Japan as "Return of the Demon Lord" or similar and wasn't labelled as the second main game.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Tryhard

[Jedi]

15 hours ago, Tryhard said:

Warriors Orochi 2 was subtitled in Japan as "Return of the Demon Lord" or similar and wasn't labelled as the second main game.

Yep it's yet another, East and West titled stuff differently so numbers are off

[Magical CC]

DW9 sucks. I want changes in the gameplay such as deeper combat, better mount fighting and more interesting maps, not this open world crap. DW has always been the time killing, feel good type of game where I kill like thousand enemies then go to sleep. DW9 is no longer that type of game for me. Hunting for material, riding in a vast...boring, ugly map....dumped down combat and terribly bad and repeating side quests. What does it want to become? If I want a large world with satisfying gameplay where I make friend with enemy lords and conquer the world, I would rather play Mount&Blade. I have always thought Farcry 4 "openworld" was boring and bad but DW9 has managed to topple even that. DW Pc ports have always been crappy but DW9 is another level of crap. At least this is the fastest Koei pc port to received multiple game-improvement patch.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Magical CC

[Sire]

A new Warriors Orochi game, eh? I definitely want to try and pick it up, especially if there happens to be a Switch version. I enjoyed playing WO3 Hyper for the Wii U (although I am bummed that Ultimate is the best version, much like the whole Hyrule Warriors Legends thing and its reboot for the Switch. I think Warriors games love to release multiple versions of the same title instead of just updating the base game...)

I never got around to trying Samurai Warriors 4 or 4-II since I think those are mostly Playstation titles. I enjoyed my time with 3 and with Chronicles (my first ever Warriors game), but there are so many other games to pick up and play.