Underrated Classes and Units

[Dark Paladin X]

With people discussing about best and worst units in the forums, I want to discuss about "underrated" unis and classes. And when I mean "underrated," I mean classes and units where people put little to no value on these classes or units, but said units can be useful in certain situations.

For classes, I would say most magic/physical hybrid classes are usually underrated, especially the Maid/Butler class. The reason being is that War Priestess/Mountain Priest have better stats when it comes to physical damage weapon/staff user hybrid. Even the Adventurer class is a better class than Maids/Butler since bows are generally better weapons than hidden weapons. And when it comes to Hidden Weapons users, elite ninjas are usually better since they have better overall stats for a hidden weapon user and can use swords. That being said, there are some situations where reclassing someone as a Maid/Butler is generally better. Across from your starting Maids/Butlers (Jakob, Felicia, and Flora), Saizou and Sakura can do reasonably well as Maids/Butler (especially with Sakura with a 30% strength growth, which is somewhat reasonable in a similar vein like Lissa in Awakening). If you want Midoriko as a Hidden weapon user, she's better off as a Maid than a Ninja since Maids have better luck caps than a ninja and has reasonable amount of speed cap as a maid (and even so, Midoriko is far better off as a Basara or a Falcon Knight to maximize her Luck growth and her personal skill).

For units, I would say Mozume. I do have to admit that Mozume sucks in the Hoshido route since you have better bow users than Mozume (i.e. Takumi and Setsuna), but the Nohr route is where she shines the best. Nohr route does not have many bow users and Mozume late game will end up being one of your best hard hitters as a Holy Bowman. She's even better than Adventurer!Zero in retrospects. As for Hoshido and Invisible Kingdom route, it's really hard to optimize her. Although I will say that in the Hoshido route, she'll end up being my main axe user since Hoshido route doesn't have a lot of playable units who can use axes.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Dark Paladin X

[Tooru]

Everyone knows how powerful Mozume can be as well as how weak a lv1 Mozume is. There is not any underrating.

Classes with low stats are easy to be underrated.

It is not strange for them to have good performance in practice, and that is why they are given such stats.

But it is impossible for those who don't have the game to believe.

For example, Talonflame Golden-kite Warrior.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Tooru

[Duke of Dozel]

Generally the Kamuisexuals tend to be overlooked for their lack of supports but Izana, Asura, Crimson, and maaaaybe Flora are all great. I think class wise, golden kite warriors tend to be overlooked by their lower combined stat counts, but I think they are pretty damn fantastic.

[Silverdawn77]

i would say shara is really underrated. alot of people dismiss her as a bad unit because of her expy-ness to tharja, but her supports actually flesh her out as a very different person in subtle ways, plus she is a good unit with good parents.

[NekoKnight]

For classes, I would say most magic/physical hybrid classes are usually underrated, especially the Maid/Butler class. The reason being is that War Priestess/Mountain Priest have better stats when it comes to physical damage weapon/staff user hybrid. Even the Adventurer class is a better class than Maids/Butler since bows are generally better weapons than hidden weapons. And when it comes to Hidden Weapons users, elite ninjas are usually better since they have better overall stats for a hidden weapon user and can use swords.

For units, I would say Mozume. I do have to admit that Mozume sucks in the Hoshido route since you have better bow users than Mozume (i.e. Takumi and Setsuna), but the Nohr route is where she shines the best. Nohr route does not have many bow users and Mozume late game will end up being one of your best hard hitters as a Holy Bowman. She's even better than Adventurer!Zero in retrospects. As for Hoshido and Invisible Kingdom route, it's really hard to optimize her. Although I will say that in the Hoshido route, she'll end up being my main axe user since Hoshido route doesn't have a lot of playable units who can use axes.

I disagree with a lot of this. For starters, Maids/Butlers have a lot of utility, especially in Nohr where you only get 2 healers until chapter 16 (or until you promote someone) and Felicia/Joker is your only Hidden Weapon user until you get Suzukaze. They can heal, debuff, have higher movement than standard foot soldiers and can even be viable combat units. Hidden weapons are hardly inferior to bows. We're talking about weapons that are accurate, can attack at 1-2 spaces with no penalties, debuff and are usually on characters with a lot of speed. There is a reason ninja are the bane of everyone's existence. And concerning Elite Ninja, swords aren't that useful because 1. They start at a low rank so you can't do much damage. 2. They don't have all the awesome features of Hidden Weapons. 3. Ninja have paper for defense so you don't want to be fighting at melee range if you can help it.

Mozume is less appealing for Nohr because of limited experience. In Hoshido you get more bow users but you can grind Mozume until her higher growths speak for themselves.

[Self-Keeping Secret]

For all it's flaws though, Golden Kite Warrior is likely one of the best users of Overbearing, as Beast Killers can be used for Riders, and Bows for fliers. Beast Killers are also more powerful than Hunting Kunai and Hunter's Bow, and don't have the weird side-effects/restrctions they have (though hunting kunai do have the debuffs going for it).

[Minischew]

For all it's flaws though, Golden Kite Warrior is likely one of the best users of Overbearing, as Beast Killers can be used for Riders, and Bows for fliers. Beast Killers are also more powerful than Hunting Kunai and Hunter's Bow, and don't have the weird side-effects/restrctions they have (though hunting kunai do have the debuffs going for it).

Don't Golden-Kite Warriors also count as fliers?

[Tooru]

Don't Golden-Kite Warriors also count as fliers?

Yes. They are fliers as well as beasts.

Birds are beasts XD.

[avengerfive]

The main problem I see with turning Mozume into a bowman is that there are so many better users of the earlier second seals. On top of that, I'd rather train Zero as a bow user because of pass/rescuing.

[Dark Paladin X]

The main problem I see with turning Mozume into a bowman is that there are so many better users of the earlier second seals. On top of that, I'd rather train Zero as a bow user because of pass/rescuing.

You do NOT need to use your level 1 shop to get the first second seals. You can obtain those by searching through other players' My Castles to obtain one if they have a level 3 shop.

Also, a little correction. The Rescue skill is from Cavaliers, not the class Zero is in. And Mozume actually have better stats as a bow user and can hit really hard as a bow user when compared to Zero.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Dark Paladin X

[Tooru]

You do NOT need to use your level 1 shop to get the first second seals. You can obtain those by searching through other players' My Castles to obtain one if they have a level 3 shop.

Also, a little correction. The Rescue skill is from Cavaliers, not the class Zero is in. And Mozume actually have better stats as a bow user and can hit really hard as a bow user when compared to Zero.

We have other units for hitting hard, and Zero for something else when there isn't a flier.

Those "other units" may not use bows, but the game won't punish us for beating much more enemies with Swords or whatever than with Bows.

It is strange to say there is any replacement between Zero and Mozume.

I will admit that after training Mozume there is one more reason to not to use Sorcerer!Odin who is going to hit but not hard.

[avengerfive]

You do NOT need to use your level 1 shop to get the first second seals. You can obtain those by searching through other players' My Castles to obtain one if they have a level 3 shop.

Also, a little correction. The Rescue skill is from Cavaliers, not the class Zero is in. And Mozume actually have better stats as a bow user and can hit really hard as a bow user when compared to Zero.

If we are taking visiting other people's My Castles into effect I'm sure Mozume would make a pretty good bowman. Also I'm sorry, when I said rescuing, I meant using the staff "Vanished Disaster", which was called rescue in other games. Pass + Vanished Disaster helps a lot in Nohr endgame, at least I've heard it does.

[Djing]

Isn't Nohr supposed to have limited experience? Wouldn't training Mozume just end up killing the rest of your army statwise?

[Dark Paladin X]

If we are taking visiting other people's My Castles into effect I'm sure Mozume would make a pretty good bowman. Also I'm sorry, when I said rescuing, I meant using the staff "Vanished Disaster", which was called rescue in other games. Pass + Vanished Disaster helps a lot in Nohr endgame, at least I've heard it does.

Well, I did heard there are really tough maps in Nohr, so you might have a point, but in the Nohr, you really don't have a lot of hard hitting units. Across from lategame Mozume, the only other options for hard hitting units are Lazward, Charlotte, Effie, Camilla, Xander, Leo, Nyx, and Flannel. And even so, their growth rates and stats are sub-optimal for bow user (for example, Lazward is better off as a Hero than a Bow Knight and same goes to Luna, Charlotte is 100x better off as either a Maid or a Berserker and Elffie is better off as a General or a Maid.

And speaking of which, I think the Brave Hero class is also underrated as well. Although Stubborness is considered to be inferior when compared to Renewal, I do think that Lazward and Luna are better as Heroes than as Bow Knights (as I find the Bow Knight kit to be suboptimal for a bow and sword user, and Rally Skill isn't as useful when compared to Sol from Brave Hero).

Isn't Nohr supposed to have limited experience? Wouldn't training Mozume just end up killing the rest of your army statwise?

Generally yes. The reason Mozume is more useful in the Nohr route is because she's better as your main bow user when compared to Zero. Even though her starting stats are low, high exponentially high growth rates and her reclass and skill options makes her your best bow user in the Nohr route. Also, it's easier to train a fragile ranged unit than a fragile melee unit. In the Hoshido route, she's far less useful because you have better bow users such as Takumi and Setsuna and the Hoshido route you already have enough bow users.

Also, the EXP DLC does work on the Nohr route, unless if you really want to challenge yourself in a similar vein like the earlier Fire Emblem games with limited EXP.

[Tooru]

Isn't Nohr supposed to have limited experience? Wouldn't training Mozume just end up killing the rest of your army statwise?

If you are not using all units in early chapters, there will be enough EXP to make you army start to get 1 EXP per battle when Mozume joins.

Training Mozume doesn't hurt our EXP gaining a lot.

Well, I did heard there are really tough maps in Nohr, so you might have a point, but in the Nohr, you really don't have a lot of hard hitting units. Across from lategame Mozume, the only other options for hard hitting units are Lazward, Charlotte, Effie, Camilla, Xander, Leo, Nyx, and Flannel. And even so, their growth rates and stats are sub-optimal for bow user (for example, Lazward is better off as a Hero than a Bow Knight and same goes to Luna, Charlotte is 100x better off as either a Maid or a Berserker and Elffie is better off as a General or a Maid.

If Lazward is a hitting hard unit, so are most units:

• Silas&Piere deal more damage than Lazward because of Open Assault.
• Great Knight!Jakob has Open Assaul too, though there are lower weapon ranks.
• Benoit&Berka has slightly lower Str but their weapons have higher Mt.
• Arthur has higher Atk with amazing critical rate. (So is Berserker!Berka.)
• Elise has higher Mag than Nyx.

None of them use bows but I still can't catch your point that we should have "enough bow users" to beat un-flying units. It doesn't make things harder to wipe those enemies out without shooting an arrow.

Bowman!Mozume can be a good replacement of any Berserker, also maybe Golden-kite!Mozume to a flying unit. But Zero is a different unit for different uses.

And speaking of which, I think the Brave Hero class is also underrated as well. Although Stubborness is considered to be inferior when compared to Renewal, I do think that Lazward and Luna are better as Heroes than as Bow Knights (as I find the Bow Knight kit to be suboptimal for a bow and sword user, and Rally Skill isn't as useful when compared to Sol from Brave Hero).

Brave Hero is underrated because of Luna. Her Str is just enough for a Mercenary, but falls behind soon after promoting to Brave Hero. This gives us worse impressions than having low Str all the time.

The class itself is not bad for main game playing. Silas can make a good one, so does Xander but he requires an S/A+ support. They have good Str/Skl/Def at the same time for tanking and triggering Patient Assurance&Sol.

Underrating usually comes from "low stats + good performance". Bow Knight Luna is an example for this.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Tooru

[Shadow Mir]

If you are not using all units in early chapters, there will be enough EXP to make you army start to get 1 EXP per battle when Mozume joins.

Training Mozume doesn't hurt our EXP gaining a lot.

How many levels above the enemy can you be before you start gaining only 1 EXP a kill?

[Tooru]

How many levels above the enemy can you be before you start gaining only 1 EXP a kill?

I think it is +5 levels for 1 EXP a battle and 3 EXP a kill.

[Dollysama]

How many levels above the enemy can you be before you start gaining only 1 EXP a kill?

You start gaining 1 exp per kill after you are six levels higher than the enemy, although the amount you gain drops for every level higher you are than the enemy.

So a lv 11 unit against a lv 10 enemy unit gains more than if your unit fought against that same enemy when it was lv 12 and so on. If those same units fought again when your unit was lv 16, you would only gain 1 exp UNLESS it was a 'boss' unit. If it was a 'boss' unit, you gain 2 exp.

[Ownagepuffs]

Assuming we are going to other players' castles opens a can of worms. You might as well assumed grinding and buying skills while you're at it and not everyone has wireless access so shop visiting shouldn't be taken into consideration.

Isn't Nohr supposed to have limited experience? Wouldn't training Mozume just end up killing the rest of your army statwise?

"Limited experience" really just means "no skirmishes". Training Moz is still a waste of time and experience. Nohr doesn't need Bow users, and if you really need them then you have Asyura and/or Eponine.

[Technoweirdo]

Nohr may have limited EXP, but EXP gains scaling to level should offset that. All that matters is how much you're willing to suffer with a ranged unit worse than Odin for a bit -- and even then not by that much since you'll be seeing lancers and ninjas more often than you will axes and bows, not to mention a mere Bronze Bow being 1Mt stronger and 10 Hit better than a Thunder tome. For fuck's sake, she starts with the same speed as Odin. Her -much- better growths will quickly get her to stop being Odin.

Her Paralogue comes just after Chapter 7, right? If you really want, you can drop one unit you'd have used in Chapter 8. Alternatively, drop Odin in Chapter 9 and start training Mozume right then and there. I mean, who else could take Odin's spot anyway? There's nobody else on your team! lol Chapter 10 is the same deal as there's just enough space for every unit you have but one. Plus, with fliers around and Chapter 10 being Chapter 10...

...Yeah, thanks to circumstance, she's genuinely viable in Nohr. Her rough start is barely a hindrance.

[Shadow Mir]

I think it is +5 levels for 1 EXP a battle and 3 EXP a kill.

You start gaining 1 exp per kill after you are six levels higher than the enemy, although the amount you gain drops for every level higher you are than the enemy.

So a lv 11 unit against a lv 10 enemy unit gains more than if your unit fought against that same enemy when it was lv 12 and so on. If those same units fought again when your unit was lv 16, you would only gain 1 exp UNLESS it was a 'boss' unit. If it was a 'boss' unit, you gain 2 exp.

I see. I've said this before, but I think it's nice that IS is finally doing stuff to discourage low-manning.

[Ownagepuffs]

Being comparable to Odin is not something in her favor. It's more like a mark against Odin. Your proposition also falls short as it assumes players train Odin in the first place. A better idea is to not bother with either of them, but at least Odin has free deployment in C8 where you're definitely not dropping anyone for Moz. And fliers/ninjas are not prominent enough for her Bow use to be considered special, especially when you have Zero/Eponine/Asyura. Also, C10 can be completed fine without Moz. At least Odin can man the magic turrets or Strike the Oni through the barricade.

Basically, no. Moz is not viable. She is terrible in Nohr, morseo than in Hosh, because she amounts to nothing after significant investment that other characters accomplish with minimal investment.

[avengerfive]

It depends on how you play the game really. If you decide to use things like grind DLC and other people my castles, any character can be good. But on higher difficulties/no grind/efficiency runs Mozume isn't worth the investment.

[Technoweirdo]

Being comparable to Odin is not something in her favor. It's more like a mark against Odin. Your proposition also falls short as it assumes players train Odin in the first place. A better idea is to not bother with either of them, but at least Odin has free deployment in C8 where you're definitely not dropping anyone for Moz. And fliers/ninjas are not prominent enough for her Bow use to be considered special, especially when you have Zero/Eponine/Asyura. Also, C10 can be completed fine without Moz. At least Odin can man the magic turrets or Strike the Oni through the barricade.

Basically, no. Moz is not viable. She is terrible in Nohr, morseo than in Hosh, because she amounts to nothing after significant investment that other characters accomplish with minimal investment.

No, it assumes you aren't low-manning Ch. 9 or 10, the latter of which being a -really- bad idea to low-man and, by extension, the two before it. It also assumes you don't support-grind Zero in two chapters for Eponine or hack Asura into Ch. 10.

How do I put this...

Your only other early-game option is so bad that using Mozume can't possibly hurt you. Ch. 8? I'll give you that it'll be harder if you drop any units because you'll have to drop someone more useful. Ch. 9 and its semi-stationary Lancers? Not so much as safety's not an issue. You can easily have her replace Odin for those times when you need to sweep enemies. Ch. 10 with its Ninjas, Lancers, and Pegasus Knights? When the Pegasus Knights alone could ORKO half your units, Mozume is a god-send. Simply being on the southern turret (or the eastern one, should the boss not be killed quickly enough -- and I really doubt most of us even attempted killing him) can be a great help as it frees up Zero to out-right kill enemies. Depending on how well you've got things under control, you could have both step off the turrets to kill enemies rather than injure them. Meanwhile, Odin'd be best for replacing Nyx if she needs to get off the western turret. That's...pretty much it.

Ch. 11 and onward, your options start to expand and you see more variation in enemies that won't work completely in Mozume's favor, though you'll still get the occasional flier that's damn-well worth having a second bow for. If nothing else, by that time, you can safely drop both her and Odin, but her great growths and the experience she'd have gotten by that point should let her stand on her own.

[Tooru]

There must be some reasons for you to have Zero out-right but Mozume on a turret. I don't think it is because Mozume is better than Zero or whoever goes out.

1 bower is enough for ch 10. It is fine to have Zero out-right and nobody on a turret.

"2 bowers" and "1 bower + 1 ??? " are not obviously different for this chapter, you can get a good result with either choice.

Fore later chapters we may want more bowers.

---Zero shoots fliers well. He can also be a staff user, a anti-mage, and he gets Pass.

---Mozume shoots fliers well. The other work for her is to hit hard on other enemies.

---There are other bowers who shoot fliers well and have some other uses.

---Flannel is not a bower. But he kills Pegasus, hits hard on other enemies, and makes a good tank.

It just depends on what you need.

When you have enough units for other uses so the only left work is to deal more damage, of course Mozume is a pretty good choice.

But Zero is one of the "enough units for other uses". In this case Mozume cannot replace him.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Tooru