Tana Vanessa or Syrene

[Florete]

He said that Tana was obviously better, and that statement was challenged by SS, so I honestly don't see your point. Of course others can have different views on the matter, but that doesn't change that Tana is not "obviously better".

Regarding his statement, is the understood "in my opinion" not as obvious as I'm finding it? If it isn't, please tell me. When someone makes a subjective statement like that, I just understand it to be their opinion and let it go even if I don't agree with it. There's no reason to challenge everyone who has a different view of things, it's what makes us who we are. If SS had just made a post on why he likes Vanessa better, I would have been fine. Instead, he came in with rebuttals on why Tana obviously isn't better, and that isn't the point of the topic.

[Swordsalmon]

Regarding his statement, is the understood "in my opinion" not as obvious as I'm finding it? If it isn't, please tell me. When someone makes a subjective statement like that, I just understand it to be their opinion and let it go even if I don't agree with it. There's no reason to challenge everyone who has a different view of things, it's what makes us who we are. If SS had just made a post on why he likes Vanessa better, I would have been fine. Instead, he came in with rebuttals on why Tana obviously isn't better, and that isn't the point of the topic.

Just pointing out, but I did say that I like Tana more. However, Raven stated that Tana is wrong, so I challenged his statement, as Tino said. ^_^

[Florete]

Just pointing out, but I did say that I like Tana more. However, Raven stated that Tana is wrong, so I challenged his statement, as Tino said. ^_^

That's not how you started things. He also continued to claim it was only opinion, and you shot it down, basically saying his opinion is wrong, which it can't be. Opinions can't be wrong, nor can they be right.

[Swordsalmon]

I wasn't against him saying that he prefers Tana. I challenged his statement that Tana>Vanessa, whom he claimed was the superior character.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Just as something I'm going to say. On many other FE forums, a LOT of people have spent a LOT of time trying to form and create the best and most effective Fire Emblem Debating structure. All these things have been though over by an incredible number of people, and fully fleshed out. When we debate, we actually do it for fun. Because we enjoy it. When someone makes a statement, we try to correct it. Sure, this was meant for who you like. But there where statements of characters being of X goodness. Once someone sees that, they might disagree. They say why. It's the way we operate.

[Florete]

I wasn't against him saying that he prefers Tana. I challenged his statement that Tana>Vanessa, whom he claimed was the superior character.

He claimed that as his opinion, as well as others. There's no problem with that.

Me? I think they're pretty much equal (In terms of combat). Nothing wrong with that.

You? You think Vanessa is better. Nothing wrong with that.

Just as something I'm going to say. On many other FE forums, a LOT of people have spent a LOT of time trying to form and create the best and most effective Fire Emblem Debating structure. All these things have been though over by an incredible number of people, and fully fleshed out. When we debate, we actually do it for fun. Because we enjoy it. When someone makes a statement, we try to correct it. Sure, this was meant for who you like. But there where statements of characters being of X goodness. Once someone sees that, they might disagree. They say why. It's the way we operate.

Well, we aren't other FE forums. Many of the regulars here didn't come from them, either. Some that did come from them generally don't bother debating here anyway. Some people need to understand who we are here.

Edited October 4, 2008 by Fox

[Defeatist Elitist]

Well, we aren't other FE forums. Many of the regulars here didn't come from them, either. Some that did come from them generally don't bother debating here anyway. Some people need to understand who we are here.

So, are you saying that because you are a certain way, anyone joining should yield to your standards, and that things should never change? All I'm saying is that you should at least try to accept this system, because the people who developed it spent an incredible amount of time and thought in it. It's as close to being perfect as we can get right now.

[Florete]

So, are you saying that because you are a certain way, anyone joining should yield to your standards, and that things should never change? All I'm saying is that you should at least try to accept this system, because the people who developed it spent an incredible amount of time and thought in it. It's as close to being perfect as we can get right now.

If the people who are here are against that change, no, it shouldn't have to change just because others elsewhere are like that. Are you saying every FE forum should be full of debates? People can debate elsewhere until their hearts give out, it's none of my business, but can't it be kept where it's actually wanted? All it's done here is increase tension and make old regulars steer away from the FE boards a bit.

[Swordsalmon]

Yet the debating has created quite a bit of discussion. Isn't that a good thing? :o

[Florete]

Yet the debating has created quite a bit of discussion. Isn't that a good thing? :o

In one way, yes. In another, possibly more important, way, no. Let me low down the facts; I've spoken to regulars, and they hate what you debaters have turned this place into. Some people are generally avoiding the FE boards because they don't even want to see what's happening, especially when what should be a simple, nice, opinionated topic turns into a heated debate. What good is discussion if people hate how it's happening and what it causes?

[Defeatist Elitist]

In one way, yes. In another, possibly more important, way, no. Let me low down the facts; I've spoken to regulars, and they hate what you debaters have turned this place into. Some people are generally avoiding the FE boards because they don't even want to see what's happening, especially when what should be a simple, nice, opinionated topic turns into a heated debate. What good is discussion if people hate how it's happening and what it causes?

Then people should calm down. If they hate what we've done, they have a reason, right? If so, then they should show us why what we've done is wrong. If they can't, I see no reason to stop.

Let me give you a metaphor thingy. We'll say that this is like a Souther State here.

Me, SS, and Tino would be Homosexuals. Now, you guys don't like/hate homosexuals, and think we should stop being homosexual. We give reasons why we are homosexual, but the only real reasons you guys give are "We've never been Homosexual and we don't like it.", or quotations from a bible or something.

[Tino]

If the people who are here are against that change, no, it shouldn't have to change just because others elsewhere are like that. Are you saying every FE forum should be full of debates? People can debate elsewhere until their hearts give out, it's none of my business, but can't it be kept where it's actually wanted? All it's done here is increase tension and make old regulars steer away from the FE boards a bit.

You seriously make it sound like everything you like should be liked, and everything you dislike should be disliked. Also, are the old regulars suddenly better or more important or should they be more respected than us? Don't think so.

If we want to debate here, then we are allowed to. If this is not a debating community, fine, but that doesn't mean we can't debate here. If people don't like it, then that's not our problem. This may all sound pretty rude and/or insulting, but I'm just telling you the truth.

In one way, yes. In another, possibly more important, way, no. Let me low down the facts; I've spoken to regulars, and they hate what you debaters have turned this place into. Some people are generally avoiding the FE boards because they don't even want to see what's happening, especially when what should be a simple, nice, opinionated topic turns into a heated debate. What good is discussion if people hate how it's happening and what it causes?

What Revan said.

Edited October 4, 2008 by Tino

[Florete]

Then people should calm down. If they hate what we've done, they have a reason, right? If so, then they should show us why what we've done is wrong. If they can't, I see no reason to stop.

Let me give you a metaphor thingy. We'll say that this is like a Souther State here.

Me, SS, and Tino would be Homosexuals. Now, you guys don't like/hate homosexuals, and think we should stop being homosexual. We give reasons why we are homosexual, but the only real reasons you guys give are "We've never been Homosexual and we don't like it.", or quotations from a bible or something.

I can't agree that that's a good metaphor for this situation. Have you read what Ronan posted? The Bikeshed thing? I suggest you read the italicized lines at the top.

Just because people might not have a reason for hating what you've done means you should continue to do it? That makes no sense at all. Common courtesy says you should stop doing something if everyone around hates that you're doing it, no matter the reason, or absence of one.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I can't agree that that's a good metaphor for this situation. Have you read what Ronan posted? The Bikeshed thing? I suggest you read the italicized lines at the top.

Just because people might not have a reason for hating what you've done means you should continue to do it? That makes no sense at all. Common courtesy says you should stop doing something if everyone around hates that you're doing it, no matter the reason, or absence of one.

So you're saying that if everyone around you hated you being a homosexual, you should stop, even though they have no good reason?

[lolDeath]

Sounds to me like some people just can't debate well so they're attacking the members directly. Pretty idiotic really.

[Florete]

You seriously make it sound like everything you like should be liked, and everything you dislike should be disliked. Also, are the old regulars suddenly better or more important or should they be more respected than us? Don't think so.

If we want to debate here, then we are allowed to. If this is not a debating community, fine, but that doesn't mean we can't debate here. If people don't like it, then that's not our problem. This may all sound pretty rude and/or insulting, but I'm just telling you the truth.

How am I making it sound like that when I've been talking over and over again about opinions and how anyone can have their own? The old regulars are definitely important; They've made this place into what it is, and they like it.

If you want to debate, keep it away from the places debates aren't wanted. Make your own topics that are specifically for debates, don't turn every topic into one, especially when it's plain and obvious that isn't the goal of the topic. You're turning this place into a debating community, and people don't like it. You should continue on and be hated by regulars just because you can? That doesn't sound right to me.

So you're saying that if everyone around you hated you being a homosexual, you should stop, even though they have no good reason?

I said that wasn't a good metaphor. Put it this way; You can be a homosexual, but if you are always acting the part, that's what will make people hate you, and you should stop. I know a straight girl, and I asked what she would think if I told her I was a lesbian. Her reply was: "I don't care, just don't hit on me."

I hope none of the debaters take offense to being compared to homosexuals, but in this case, the debaters are hitting on the straight people, and the straight people don't like it. They don't care about the fact that these people are homosexuals, they just don't need to see it everywhere.

[Tino]

How am I making it sound like that when I've been talking over and over again about opinions and how anyone can have their own? The old regulars are definitely important; They've made this place into what it is, and they like it.

If you want to debate, keep it away from the places debates aren't wanted. Make your own topics that are specifically for debates, don't turn every topic into one, especially when it's plain and obvious that isn't the goal of the topic. You're turning this place into a debating community, and people don't like it. You should continue on and be hated by regulars just because you can? That doesn't sound right to me.

So you're indeed saying that we have to become just like you and the other old regulars. We haven't changed the entire forum. In fact, all we did was add something to it. We didn't make a single change at all.

You might not even notice it, but we aren't even the ones who start them. It's those people with those statements like "a > b because c and d" who actually start them, although they likely do so unintentionally. You can't even blame us, no matter how badly you want to.

Also, let's pretend we're in a room with 500 people (it's a big room). I am the only black man in there, and all the other people are white. All those white people are racist and hate me, the black man. I should stop being a black man?

[Florete]

So you're indeed saying that we have to become just like you and the other old regulars. We haven't changed the entire forum. In fact, all we did was add something to it. We didn't make a single change at all.

You might not even notice it, but we aren't even the ones who start them. It's those people with those statements like "a > b because c and d" who actually start them, although they likely do so unintentionally. You can't even blame us, no matter how badly you want to.

Also, let's pretend we're in a room with 500 people (it's a big room). I am the only black man in there, and all the other people are white. All those white people are racist and hate me, the black man. I should stop being a black man?

No, you don't. You just have to accept the ways of the old members and understand what this place is. Is debating every fiber of your being? I don't think that is so. I think you're capable of discussing these games in a different way without changing who you are.

You are the ones who start it since you are often the ones who make a reply in rebuttal. You can't seem to accept that people will have a different opinion from yours, and you challenge them at every corner as a result.

This is different. You can't change your appearance to fit what everyone wants, so that is their fault that they are racists, not you being black. It is your fault if you walked in there knowing they would hate you and for no reason other than the fact that you can legally do so. This isn't a good metaphor, and I wouldn't use it to show my point on this.

[Raven]

Did I forget to add "IMO" to my initial post? Oops, silly fucking me. I though it was pretty obvious that we had to give opinions, and not state that everything we say is a fucking opinion, because it should be fucking obvious since it's in a thread created for the purpose of people stating their opinions. Fuck.

[Tino]

No, you don't. You just have to accept the ways of the old members and understand what this place is. Is debating every fiber of your being? I don't think that is so. I think you're capable of discussing these games in a different way without changing who you are.

You are the ones who start it since you are often the ones who make a reply in rebuttal. You can't seem to accept that people will have a different opinion from yours, and you challenge them at every corner as a result.

This is different. You can't change your appearance to fit what everyone wants, so that is their fault that they are racists, not you being black. It is your fault if you walked in there knowing they would hate you and for no reason other than the fact that you can legally do so. This isn't a good metaphor, and I wouldn't use it to show my point on this.

Indeed, I'm fully capable of doing other things, but that doesn't change that I enjoy debating. Also, I don't see saying "A >>> cuz shes so awsum" "no she's not" as discussing. It doesn't happen exactly like that here, but that is how "discussing the games" generally works here, apparently.

It also seems like you're implying that the old regulars are way more important than the newer members, and that we should do everything to keep them happy. I'm not saying you are, but it does seem like it.

We reply to statements that are made, which means we make the second move. The one who stated something made the first one.

Another metaphor then. I like bananas. All the other 499 people in the room hate bananas. I must suddenly stop liking bananas? That's just plain dumb.

[Raven]

Indeed, I'm fully capable of doing other things, but that doesn't change that I enjoy debating. Also, I don't see saying "A >>> cuz shes so awsum" "no she's not" as discussing. It doesn't happen exactly like that here, but that is how "discussing the games" generally works here, apparently.

Did I forget to add "IMO" to my initial post? Oops, silly fucking me. I though it was pretty obvious that we had to give opinions, and not state that everything we say is a fucking opinion, because it should be fucking obvious since it's in a thread created for the purpose of people stating their opinions. Fuck.

[Florete]

It also seems like you're implying that the old regulars are way more important than the newer members, and that we should do everything to keep them happy. I'm not saying you are, but it does seem like it.

We reply to statements that are made, which means we make the second move. The one who stated something made the first one.

Another metaphor then. I like bananas. All the other 499 people in the room hate bananas. I must suddenly stop liking bananas? That's just plain dumb.

I apologize if it seems that way, but if a group has made something to be something they like and another party comes in and starts flipping things around, it isn't exactly the nicest intro.

Statements that aren't asking for a reply. You're throwing the punches here.

You don't stop liking them, just don't act like everyone should be loving bananas. If you're accepting of them, they should be accepting of you, but they won't appreciate it if you constantly shout "I love bananas! Everyone loves bananas!"

[Defeatist Elitist]

No, you don't. You just have to accept the ways of the old members and understand what this place is. Is debating every fiber of your being? I don't think that is so. I think you're capable of discussing these games in a different way without changing who you are.

You are the ones who start it since you are often the ones who make a reply in rebuttal. You can't seem to accept that people will have a different opinion from yours, and you challenge them at every corner as a result.

This is different. You can't change your appearance to fit what everyone wants, so that is their fault that they are racists, not you being black. It is your fault if you walked in there knowing they would hate you and for no reason other than the fact that you can legally do so. This isn't a good metaphor, and I wouldn't use it to show my point on this.

SO, I have to do things your way? That is in fact what you're saying? That because you guys can't tale the change, we should just bugger off to where we came from? I really, really want to be nice about this, but it's really hard when all you guys say is that everyone hates us and that we're wrong for doing something we enjoy. We're not even hurting anyone or stopping them from doing anything.

[Tino]

I apologize if it seems that way, but if a group has made something to be something they like and another party comes in and starts flipping things around, it isn't exactly the nicest intro.

Statements that aren't asking for a reply. You're throwing the punches here.

You don't stop liking them, just don't act like everyone should be loving bananas. If you're accepting of them, they should be accepting of you, but they won't appreciate it if you constantly shout "I love bananas! Everyone loves bananas!"

Perhaps. However, that is pretty much the equivalent of racism. You don't like people because they're different and do different things. Do you think that is right?

If people don't want to get responses, then they shouldn't post. Everything can be replied to once it's posted.

I don't act like that. They still hate me, though, because I like bananas, whether I act like it or not.

[Raven]

Sounds to me like some people just can't debate well so they're attacking the members directly. Pretty idiotic really.

You're pissing me off. It seems you've created your account to shoot at Fox.