Tana Vanessa or Syrene

[Florete]

SO, I have to do things your way? That is in fact what you're saying? That because you guys can't tale the change, we should just bugger off to where we came from? I really, really want to be nice about this, but it's really hard when all you guys say is that everyone hates us and that we're wrong for doing something we enjoy. We're not even hurting anyone or stopping them from doing anything.

Have I once said that you need to be someone else to fit our standards? The thing, this seems to me like it's what you are doing. You seem to be the ones that are saying we should change to fit your standards, and that we can't have opinions of our own because your numbers "prove" us wrong. We all need to know how to be good debaters and we shouldn't post anything if it doesn't abide by your standards!

[Tino]

The old regulars are definitely important; They've made this place into what it is, and they like it.

If you want to debate, keep it away from the places debates aren't wanted.

You indeed said it. You indeed said we should stop doing what we enjoy doing, just to keep those who don't like what we do happy. You didn't state it like this, but it was definitely meant like this.

We never said you can't have your own opinions. We just proved false statements wrong.

[Swordsalmon]

Have I once said that you need to be someone else to fit our standards? The thing, this seems to me like it's what you are doing. You seem to be the ones that are saying we should change to fit your standards, and that we can't have opinions of our own because your numbers "prove" us wrong. We all need to know how to be good debaters and we shouldn't post anything if it doesn't abide by your standards!

The difference is that the debating standards are logical and have to do with facts, not opinions. While you call us elitists, saying that older members are more important sounds all fair, eh?

Edited October 4, 2008 by Swordsalmon

[Raven]

The old regulars are definitely important; They've made this place into what it is, and they like it.

If you want to debate, keep it away from the places debates aren't wanted.

You indeed said it. You indeed said we should stop doing what we enjoy doing, just to keep those who don't like what we do happy. You didn't state it like this, but it was definitely meant like this.

We never said you can't have your own opinions. We just proved false statements wrong.

Since when is an opinion a statement? Do we have to put "IMO" at the end of every post just to save our opinions from getting shot down by the likes of debators? Or are we going to get shot down for believing one character's better than the other? We don't care if we're "wrong", that's just how opinions roll.

[Tino]

Since when is an opinion a statement? Do we have to put "IMO" at the end of every post just to save our opinions from getting shot down by the likes of debators? Or are we going to get shot down for believing one character's better than the other? We don't care if we're "wrong", that's just how opinions roll.

Oh man...

I'm not just talking about one statement, I'm talking about statements made over a long period. Not just statements made in one post. You said, in this topic, that Tana is obviously better than Vanessa, which is clearly a statement of what you think is true, and that statement can be argued against.

[Raven]

Oh man...

I'm not just talking about one statement, I'm talking about statements made over a long period. Not just statements made in one post. You said, in this topic, that Tana is obviously better than Vanessa, which is clearly a statement of what you think is true, and that statement can be argued against.

I said "Tana, obviously" I know. But, that was in saying it is my obvious opinion, since I've stated Tana is my favourite elsewhere in the past, not that she is "obviously" the best peg knight. See the difference there?

[Tino]

I said "Tana, obviously" I know. But, that was in saying it is my obvious opinion, since I've stated Tana is my favourite elsewhere in the past, not that she is "obviously" the best peg knight. See the difference there?

Yes, and I'm of course supposed to know what you have said in the past <_<

I hope you don't fail to see the sarcasm in the above line.

[Florete]

The old regulars are definitely important; They've made this place into what it is, and they like it.

If you want to debate, keep it away from the places debates aren't wanted.

You indeed said it. You indeed said we should stop doing what we enjoy doing, just to keep those who don't like what we do happy. You didn't state it like this, but it was definitely meant like this.

We never said you can't have your own opinions. We just proved false statements wrong.

It goes back to the example of homosexuals hitting on straight people. Why are you doing something you enjoy in a place people hate you for it when you can do it elsewhere and not be hated? I'm not saying to leave this forum. If you want to debate here, keep it in the topics where it's obvious debating is wanted.

Our opinions are wrong then. Thanks for that.

The difference is that the debating standards are logical and have to do with facts, not opinions. While you call us elitists, saying that older members are more important sounds all fair, eh?

I didn't say they were more important, but they are this forum, and I hold them in higher regard than you because I know them, I've spoken with them, they're my friends, and they like what we do.

Oh man...

I'm not just talking about one statement, I'm talking about statements made over a long period. Not just statements made in one post. You said, in this topic, that Tana is obviously better than Vanessa, which is clearly a statement of what you think is true, and that statement can be argued against.

He has clearly stated it is his own opinion. Must we put "IMO" at the end of every damned post?

[Raven]

Yes, and I'm of course supposed to know what you have said in the past <_<

I hope you don't fail to see the sarcasm in the above line.

I saw the sarcasm, and I apologise for not stating I've given my opinion in the past, making it "obvious" to only the members that have seen me say this before.

No sarcasm here, for the record.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Since when is an opinion a statement? Do we have to put "IMO" at the end of every post just to save our opinions from getting shot down by the likes of debators? Or are we going to get shot down for believing one character's better than the other? We don't care if we're "wrong", that's just how opinions roll.

Alright. If someone responds to you with a debate point, all you have to say is "Sorry, I meant it as an opinion, I didn't intend to make a point", or something.

[Raven]

Alright. If someone responds to you with a debate point, all you have to say is "Sorry, I meant it as an opinion, I didn't intend to make a point", or something.

I tried... way back on the first page, I tried.

[Florete]

Alright. If someone responds to you with a debate point, all you have to say is "Sorry, I meant it as an opinion, I didn't intend to make a point", or something.

If that's the case, then we must add "IMO" to every statement, don't we? Because if we don't, it's going to get shot back at us, full force. If it isn't clearly stated as a FUCKING OPINION, it means we're asking for a challenge!

If it seems like I'm overreacting, it's because I'm really pissed off right now and am having a difficult time thinking straight.

[Defeatist Elitist]

If that's the case, then we must add "IMO" to every statement, don't we? Because if we don't, it's going to get shot back at us, full force. If it isn't clearly stated as a FUCKING OPINION, it means we're asking for a challenge!

If it seems like I'm overreacting, it's because I'm really pissed off right now and am having a difficult time thinking straight.

If it's really your opinion, and you really believe it then nothing we say should convince you otherwise, right? I mean, if it's something like "I like Lucius a lot." we're going to leave it alone. If it's something like "I think Lucius is the best Magic User in FE7" we're going to argue. In the latter case, if you really believe Lucius is the best Magic User it shouldn't affect you. If you MEANT the first, and said the second, then alright, but you can't blame us for trying to have fun. We can have fun when you guys talk about which character's you LIKE, and which characters you want to use for X thing, hell we even do those things ourselves, so the least you can do is let us do our thing.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

I don't like Peg/Falco Knights other than Tana who is much better off as a Wyvern Knight. So I guess Tana.

[Raven]

If it's really your opinion, and you really believe it then nothing we say should convince you otherwise, right? I mean, if it's something like "I like Lucius a lot." we're going to leave it alone. If it's something like "I think Lucius is the best Magic User in FE7" we're going to argue. In the latter case, if you really believe Lucius is the best Magic User it shouldn't affect you.

It does affect us when someone tells us our beliefs are wrong. That's like telling a religious person that God doesn't exist, or that their God is not who or what they think it is. Not that extreme of course, but it's on the same wavelength.

[Swordsalmon]

It does affect us when someone tells us our beliefs are wrong. That's like telling a religious person that God doesn't exist, or that their God is not who or what they think it is. Not that extreme of course, but it's on the same wavelength.

The difference is that we can prove why Character X is better than Character Y, as we have sufficient knowledge. It's not possible to disprove any form of God, as there is not enough factual evidence.

[Defeatist Elitist]

It does affect us when someone tells us our beliefs are wrong. That's like telling a religious person that God doesn't exist, or that their God is not who or what they think it is. Not that extreme of course, but it's on the same wavelength.

What's wrong with telling a Religious person that they're wrong? As long as you back it up and provide evidence.

The difference is that we can prove why Character X is better than Character Y, as we have sufficient knowledge. It's not possible to disprove any form of God, as there is not enough factual evidence.

I would argue that point, but this is neither the time nor the place.

[Raven]

*Sigh*

Whatever... This is dragging on and getting boring. I believe Tana is the better of the two. It's my opinion... I've already heared all that's been said about Vanessa and how she's "the best", but that just doesn't change my views on this whole thing...

[Masu]

None of the debators here have ever said "Don't use ____, they suck! Use ______ instead!" They merely were saying that Character A, on average, is better than Character B.

Fox: Please quote whoever said anything like that.

I always see them saying things along the lines of:

"Are you serious? *insert character here* is much better than *insert character here* for these reasons!"

and I HAVE seen "THIS CHARACTER SUCKS" before.

[CGV]

God fucking dammit... I guess I'll throw in something...

Yet the debating has created quite a bit of discussion. Isn't that a good thing? :o

Yeah, a discussion of you and SS pulling out facts of every damn topic and debating your asses off while driving some people away. Look at the last few pages of this topic and the Titania one. Whos' the majority of the topics?

Then people should calm down. If they hate what we've done, they have a reason, right? If so, then they should show us why what we've done is wrong. If they can't, I see no reason to stop

I wouldn't be talking if I were you. Whipping out all that debate shit on opinion topics and saying were wrong for liking someone indicates YOU need to calm down and accept that we like someone you don't. Like I hate Makalov and Oliver, but a lot of people seem to like him and I wouldn't react to them at all except in a joking matter or ask why they like them. I don't say "actually so and so sucks because of *long list of debate shit like stats, averages, supprts, etc.*"

1. You seriously make it sound like everything you like should be liked, and everything you dislike should be disliked

2. Also, are the old regulars suddenly better or more important or should they be more respected than us?

3. If we want to debate here, then we are allowed to. If this is not a debating community, fine, but that doesn't mean we can't debate here. If people don't like it, then that's not our problem. This may all sound pretty rude and/or insulting, but I'm just telling you the truth.

1. Bullshit. If that was the case. All the Makalov and Oliver stuff would be long gone

2. I'd say yes they are because they don't debate their asses off for numerous topics and they keep things simple and fun to talk about

3. Fine, you guys can debate here, but if you do, I for one am NOT going by those damn rules. I will take everything into account (that means PE) because that's how I determine how good units are or can be and I'm sure most everyone else here does that, too. If you wanna debate here in SF, you can stick those rules right up your FE7 catridge and do it our way because if you can't tell, that's how we debate here. If you don't like it it's not our fault, that's just the way SF works B)

Sounds to me like some people just can't debate well so they're attacking the members directly. Pretty idiotic really.

Sounds to me like some people just don't know when to not debate so they think we're attacking them directly. Pretty idiotic really

1. We haven't changed the entire forum. In fact, all we did was add something to it. We didn't make a single change at all.

2. You might not even notice it, but we aren't even the ones who start them. It's those people with those statements like "a > b because c and d" who actually start them, although they likely do so unintentionally. You can't even blame us, no matter how badly you want to.

1. Yeah you adding something extremely annoying and you can't tell, less people post in th FE forums because you guys keep shoving debate shit in our faces (How many times have I said this...)

2. BULL FUCKING SHIT!!! Do NOT go there! Before you guys were here, topics were named that quite a bit because we knew what they meant. You guys bring out the debate... oh you know what's coming...

You guys should seriously stop looking at everything through debaters eyes and just see it as a friendly discussion like the rest of do. We shouldn't have to have "IMO" after our opinion topics

1. You don't like people because they're different and do different things

2. If people don't want to get responses, then they shouldn't post. Everything can be replied to once it's posted.

1. not true... your ass would be long gone if that was the case

2. We'll post if we want to. They have as much of a right to as you do. To put it in your own words...

The old regulars are definitely important; They've made this place into what it is, and they like it.

If you want to debate, keep it away from the places debates aren't wanted.

1. You indeed said it. You indeed said we should stop doing what we enjoy doing, just to keep those who don't like what we do happy. You didn't state it like this, but it was definitely meant like this.

We never said you can't have your own opinions. We just proved false statements wrong.

1. She said to do it AWAY FROM THE PLACES THAT DEBATES AREN'T WANTED. You can still do it, just not where it is needed. Did you even the post you quoted?

The difference is that the debating standards are logical and have to do with facts, not opinions

logics and facts, my ass... too bad pretty much everyone here thinks that's all a load of shit. If you said "on average" then yes, that makes sense, but not all this "fact!" business, just... no

I don't like Peg/Falco Knights other than Tana who is much better off as a Wyvern Knight. So I guess Tana.

thank you for the on topic post :D

I always see them saying things along the lines of:

"Are you serious? *insert character here* is much better than *insert character here* for these reasons!"

and I HAVE seen "THIS CHARACTER SUCKS" before.

Thank you!

You know Tino and SS, when you say a character sucks and then "proving" it with all these stats, averages, supports, etc, and throwing in PEMN more times than Naruto said "believe it" in the first 30 episodes and putting *unit* = phail while spelling it in a stupid way is pretty much telling us that we shouldn't that unit. If not that, than you make us frustrated that you're beating them down so bad to the point where it's just stupid, annoying and most of all... pathetic

[Masu]

Holy....fucking....epic post.........is this what Fox playing TOS does to you? XD

[CGV]

Holy....fucking....epic post.........is this what Fox playing TOS does to you? XD

yeah pretty much. and all those posts I quoted except for two pissed me off

[Masu]

yeah pretty much. and all those posts I quoted except for two pissed me off

so I saw. Well good night!

[Tino]

Yeah, a discussion of you and SS pulling out facts of every damn topic and debating your asses off while driving some people away. Look at the last few pages of this topic and the Titania one. Whos' the majority of the topics?

Let's see. That's probably Revan, SS, Fox and me. Also, the Titania topic was a debate topic, so you can't tell us not to debate in it. Now you're probably going to shove shit in my face saying that it wasn't, but that's only because you people don't understand and aren't used to the things we do.

I wouldn't be talking if I were you. Whipping out all that debate shit on opinion topics and saying were wrong for liking someone indicates YOU need to calm down and accept that we like someone you don't. Like I hate Makalov and Oliver, but a lot of people seem to like him and I wouldn't react to them at all except in a joking matter or ask why they like them. I don't say "actually so and so sucks because of *long list of debate shit like stats, averages, supprts, etc.*"

To quote something I told Fox, making her apologize for something she said in the topic I quote it from.

Seriously, also think positive about us once, will you? We don't turn everything in a debate. If he just asks something, I will just answer and then leave it at that unless he has more questions.

And I'll add to that that if someone just says that he/she thinks something, then it's fine. If he/she just states an opinion, that's fine. But if someone states something that can be argued against, like "a > b because c" then I am obviously allowed to argue against the statement.

If you just say "I hate Makalov and Oliver" then that's fine, of course. All I probably want to say to that is that Makalov is awesome because of his awesome haircut and that Oliver is awesome because he's so fat. And if I reply to it with "I like Makalov because he's a Paladin with generally great stats" then you guys should also notice that we don't always try to turn everything in a debate. Raven said that we should notice when you people state something as an opinion. Well, the same applies here. You should notice when we try to turn something in a debate.

1. Bullshit. If that was the case. All the Makalov and Oliver stuff would be long gone

2. I'd say yes they are because they don't debate their asses off for numerous topics and they keep things simple and fun to talk about

3. Fine, you guys can debate here, but if you do, I for one am NOT going by those damn rules. I will take everything into account (that means PE) because that's how I determine how good units are or can be and I'm sure most everyone else here does that, too. If you wanna debate here in SF, you can stick those rules right up your FE7 catridge and do it our way because if you can't tell, that's how we debate here. If you don't like it it's not our fault, that's just the way SF works B)

can't it be kept where it's actually wanted?

She's saying that she doesn't want it here, but there are actually members here aside of Revan, SS and me who do want to debate. So she's indeed saying that we should do what she likes and that we shouldn't do what she dislikes. At least it sounds to me like that.

I didn't mean just us as debaters, but all members who are not old regulars. Of course they like it here, but that doesn't mean that the other members also don't like it here. We're just as important for the Serenes Forest community as all the old regulars at this moment.

Just as something I'm going to say. On many other FE forums, a LOT of people have spent a LOT of time trying to form and create the best and most effective Fire Emblem Debating structure. All these things have been though over by an incredible number of people, and fully fleshed out. When we debate, we actually do it for fun. Because we enjoy it. When someone makes a statement, we try to correct it. Sure, this was meant for who you like. But there where statements of characters being of X goodness. Once someone sees that, they might disagree. They say why. It's the way we operate.

Yes, I know we aren't other FE forums, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stick to the general FE Debating structure and standards. Debating without sticking to them makes things very unorganized and also makes you seem like an immature person when you're debating.

Sounds to me like some people just don't know when to not debate so they think we're attacking them directly. Pretty idiotic really

1. We come here and start debating.

2. You (all members who did) participate in the debates.

3. You use arguments that mean nothing, so we correct them.

4. You can't stand it that you can't debate.

5. You attack us.

That's simply how it goes. And we know when to debate, because we don't challenge opinions, but statements that can be argued against, like I stated above.

1. Yeah you adding something extremely annoying and you can't tell, less people post in th FE forums because you guys keep shoving debate shit in our faces (How many times have I said this...)

2. BULL FUCKING SHIT!!! Do NOT go there! Before you guys were here, topics were named that quite a bit because we knew what they meant. You guys bring out the debate... oh you know what's coming...

You guys should seriously stop looking at everything through debaters eyes and just see it as a friendly discussion like the rest of do. We shouldn't have to have "IMO" after our opinion topics

To quote something I told Fox, making her apologize for something she said in the topic I quote it from.

Seriously, also think positive about us once, will you? We don't turn everything in a debate. If he just asks something, I will just answer and then leave it at that unless he has more questions.

And I'll add to that that if someone just says that he/she thinks something, then it's fine. If he/she just states an opinion, that's fine. But if someone states something that can be argued against, like "a > b because c" then I am obviously allowed to argue against the statement.

We completely understand when something is an opinion or not.

1. not true... your ass would be long gone if that was the case

2. We'll post if we want to. They have as much of a right to as you do. To put it in your own words...

What? I don't get what you're saying, really.

Yes, and then you state something we can argue against and you start swearing, flaming and all whatnot again because we argue against something. You are all whining that we debate against everything you say, but that's not true at all. I'm not saying you shouldn't post, but if you want to be sure we won't debate against what you say, just don't state that someone is obviously better than someone else. That way we can't argue against it, because then you're just stating your opinion. "I like a more because b" is something we absolutely can't argue against, so we won't. At least, I won't. I'm not going to challenge opinions.

1. She said to do it AWAY FROM THE PLACES THAT DEBATES AREN'T WANTED. You can still do it, just not where it is needed. Did you even the post you quoted?

Did you even bother to type correctly?

Of course I read the post, otherwise I wouldn't quote it. It seems more like you didn't read it. Debates aren't wanted by everyone, but there are definitely people here who do want to debate.

logics and facts, my ass... too bad pretty much everyone here thinks that's all a load of shit. If you said "on average" then yes, that makes sense, but not all this "fact!" business, just... no

I'm going to have to agree with you here, because most things have to do with averages, but some things, such as most bows having only 2 range, do have something to do with facts. It's true that SS should've said on average, though.

You know Tino and SS, when you say a character sucks and then "proving" it with all these stats, averages, supports, etc, and throwing in PEMN more times than Naruto said "believe it" in the first 30 episodes and putting *unit* = phail while spelling it in a stupid way is pretty much telling us that we shouldn't that unit. If not that, than you make us frustrated that you're beating them down so bad to the point where it's just stupid, annoying and most of all... pathetic

Yes, we're indeed pathetic because we think logical and because we back up our points. That really makes sense <_<

</uber sarcasm>

[Florete]

By your logic, every post we make needs an "IMO" at the end so it isn't challenged. Obviously, you can't recognize a stated opinion, or we wouldn't be having these arguments. Pretty much everything I say about what characters are good and bad is my own opinion, and I'm reasonably sure that applies to a lot of the members. It goes back to my previous post:

If that's the case, then we must add "IMO" to every statement, don't we? Because if we don't, it's going to get shot back at us, full force. If it isn't clearly stated as a FUCKING OPINION, it means we're asking for a challenge!

How many times must I say it; I'm not asking you to conform to our ways, but to keep it where it's wanted. Meaning, don't debate in a topic that isn't asking for it. Make a topic specifically for debating. You'll have your fun, and we won't get caught up in it. And these days, it seems like you do turn every topic into a debate.

We're just as important for the Serenes Forest community as all the old regulars at this moment.

I don't mean to sound like a bitch, but... not really. If you three left, not much would change here (Aside from the obvious absence of debates, which is how it was before anyway...). However, there are other members that if they left, people would be trying to get them back, we'd be mourning the loss, and some others may even leave as a result. I believe in equality, but reputations are a whole other thing.

Yes, I know we aren't other FE forums, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stick to the general FE Debating structure and standards. Debating without sticking to them makes things very unorganized and also makes you seem like an immature person when you're debating.

In case you didn't know, we did perfectly fine before you came along with your "standards."