Controversial Aspects in Fates? (Possible Censorship in NA?)

[Aestury]

I don't understand how people could get frustrated over some changes to an already problematic support conversation. Soleil's supports would cause a really huge up-rise in anger (especially if sites like tumblr gained knowledge about the appearent gay conversion). So I really don't see the changes in her supports being in the same argument as why censorship is bad because I really do not see any kind of downside to these changes.

As long as they don't touch zero's supports with Mkamui, ill be a happy guy.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Aestury

[iavasechui]

''''''''''

I didn't play these games, but what you described is what I want to see more of in Fire Emblem. Variety in relationships.

This is what I'm talking about! I made a big post about this very same thing some months ago.

EDIT: I see the current topic of discussion is about the news over Soleil's supports. This is one of those instances where a character shouldn't be romanced by the avatar (if male).

I also miss the pre-existing relationships like Pent and Louise, Cuan and Ethlin joining already in love already married. And its not like that can't work in a game with marriage/child mechanics as Cuan and Ethlin were in the game that introduced those mechanics in the first place. I also wish if they DID include children again that they would mix up the parents a little more have some male characters with kids tied to them and some females with kids tied to them so some marriages would produce siblings, some would have only one child and hey maybe a few pairings just wouldn't have children at all simply because neither parent had a child tied them.

[Tryhard]

"gay conversion" does not mean "gay"

didn't noa already confirm that the gay s supports will be possible? like around the time it was confirmed in japan?

anyway

praise treehouse thank you please fix the rest of the terribles in the game please

Fixing what you consider 'terribles' doesn't stop them from existing in the Japanese version, but if you want to live in blissful ignorance...

Well, not even, because you already know about them.

I don't understand how people could get frustrated over some changes to an already problematic support conversation. Soleil's supports would cause a really huge up-rise in anger (especially if sites like tumblr gained knowledge about the appearent gay conversion). So I really don't see the changes in her supports being in the same argument as why censorship is bad because I really do not see any kind of downside to these changes.

As long as they don't touch zero's supports with Mkamui, ill be a happy guy.

So as long as they don't touch a support that you like, with someone who is notably sadistic, you'll be fine with that but not in cases with others? Also, I hate when you and others use the word, pretty much buzzword, 'problematic'. Please just tell us what you mean without being obscure about it. You pretty much mean it might offend some people, right? Well maybe Zero's sadism will offend some people... Or Pieri's craziness... though that is something else that is likely to change lol. I wouldn't honestly call either 'problematic'. The same rise up in anger is going to occur from different people who don't agree with the decision. That doesn't make it right/wrong. When the original person who did flip their shit over it on tumblr posted it, they posted wildly different facts about it from what were actually present due to their own interpretation. Some user posted a link to the conversations from that article. It's dumb as fuck, but I don't think it really supports gay conversion or homophobia. It shows that Kamui is a dumb fuck that doesn't really think about their actions, and is a poor thing to do without the player's discretion, but I don't see it as anything more than that.

http://pastebin.com/bgQC0yEa

I'm not trying to make excuses for the support, because it's actually dogshit and I don't actually have a problem with it being replaced, but please have some actual reasons for supporting the change.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Tryhard

[Melissa]

I swear to Naga, if they end up 4Kids'ing it....

[BrightBow]

I have a hard time to imagine that any changes they could make would actually result in a worse game.

Anyway, NoA didn't have a problem to use the subject of rape for pure fetish appeal with Tharja or to have a piece of pedo-masturbation material like Nowi among other fun things. While Fates seems to have found all kinds of new ways to be awful, it's not really reaching any new lows that way. So I don't see a reason for why we would suddenly get all kinds of localisation changes. After all, there is no reason to mess with a winning formula.

Edited January 21, 2016 by BrightBow

[carefreejules]

I'm personally happy with these changes because (and don't hate me for this) I actually sent Nintendo an email regarding this issue and I'm sure many have as well, but I was focusing more on the fact that, regardless of how people interpreted Soleil and M!Kamui's support, one thing is for certain in that there was NO CONSENT when M!Kamui slipped whatever the hell he had in Soleil's drink - and I think that's one of the notable 'problematic' things in their support. Consent is a big and serious issue and I'm glad that Nintendo dealt with this issue in some way.

I mean, sure there are many other questionable things in the game that should have been changed as well, but I'd rather have some things changed than no changes at all. Besides, maybe NOA didn't really know much about the subject back in Awakening so they didn't see anything wrong with it - but with many people voicing their concern for Fates, maybe they're realizing that hey, we don't really know much about this and our fans seem to know a lot.

Idk, now I'm just rambling. I just don't like when one's past actions are being used against them as to guilt them or use as an excuse to why they shouldn't make the changes that they made. To me, I think Nintendo is slowly learning and making changes accordingly and I don't think that's a bad thing.

[Mad_Scientist]

I'm not trying to make excuses for the support, because it's actually dogshit and I don't actually have a problem with it being replaced, but please have some actual reasons for supporting the change.

I'm pretty sure the reasons why it should be changed have been argued to death and back, in this forum and elsewhere. I was all set to go on a rant, but instead I'll just keep it brief. Nintendo screwed up, and created a scene that had unfortunate implications they did not want. They did not want a scene to evoke ideas of gay conversation therapy or date rape drugs, but the scene reminded a whole lot of people of both, particular the former. So they changed it.

To view it from a slightly different perspective, I saw someone recently point out that the supports were almost certainly meant to be funny. But instead they were coming off as awkward and uncomfortable to a whole bunch of people, and just plain stupid to most others. Jokes are often changed in localization (oftentimes they have to be cuz they'd make no sense outside of certain cultural contexts), why shouldn't this one be?

Regardless, I'm very glad the scene was changed.

[Skynstein]

Man, I would have hoped that having a Madoka themed Avatar might help to reduce instances of the usual "that's Japanese culture" and "anime is not for you" fallacies. The very fact that Fire Emblem managed to last for over 20 years without as much as a single panty shot should already show that this juvenile crap can't possibly be that deeply integrated into Japanese culture.

You also don't want to admit that maybe Awakening was successful because people liked its atmosphere as well as its fanservice. SF is maybe 5% of the community and people like you are maybe half of these 5%. You seem not to understand that (a lot of) people can genuinely have fun with the game.

Singling out Nowi when we have Ricken is also a low blow. Only difference between them is Ricken shows far less skin if any. A child dragonfolk that takes millenia to have the appearance of a mature human adult is problematic regardless of whom you pick as her husband, and, with the current otherkin trend (which I dismiss as the weirdness of today's teens), maybe Nowi appeals to more people than just pedophiles.

When I get to play Fates I'll enjoy it if I find it fun and turn a blind eye to the things that I could find bad about it if I have fun with it. This rubbing crap looks a lot like "Pokémon-Amie in Fire Emblem" anyway.

[Irysa]

You also don't want to admit that maybe Awakening was successful because people liked its atmosphere as well as its fanservice. SF is maybe 5% of the community and people like you are maybe half of these 5%. You seem not to understand that (a lot of) people can genuinely have fun with the game.

They're intrinsically linked on a basic level. Not that "people play because it has fanservice" but more that "people find appeal in the memetic and exaggerated characters being so prevelant". The whole point of the latter is to increase every char's "appeal", fetish fuel or downplaying contextually messed up stuff is simply part and parcel with it. Or to be more specific, extremes that put you off some chars are exactly what draw others to other characters, and that goes for everyone.

As to the current topic at hand, I don't really care if it's changed either way at this point, although there's a spiteful part of me that hoped it wouldn't be changed just to generate more negative imagery regarding the game. But it seems kind of absurd to expect them to "fix" a fundamental approach to character conceptualisation and respect at this point, so in that sense, patchwork mending the most egregious seems like tokenism. Regardless, at the very least just changing it so he doesn't drug her unknowingly, just offers it and explains the plan casually would make it less of a problem, but you do have to wonder if the fact she isn't bothered by it something of a general statement or at least indicative about the writers views on such things, or at least Kamui's centre-of-the-universe construction.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Irysa

[Aiddon]

Why do I get the feeling those who were complaining about that one conversation with Soleil are now going to be the ones at the forefront of "anti-censorship?" Whatever, it's out next month and I'll no doubt be enjoying the game immensely.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Aiddon

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

I don't understand how people could get frustrated over some changes to an already problematic support conversation. Soleil's supports would cause a really huge up-rise in anger (especially if sites like tumblr gained knowledge about the appearent gay conversion). So I really don't see the changes in her supports being in the same argument as why censorship is bad because I really do not see any kind of downside to these changes.

As long as they don't touch zero's supports with Mkamui, ill be a happy guy.

People have already stated in this thread and in other ones that they'd rather have a translation that is as close to the original game as possible, even if the content of the original game is not all to theor liking. I don't agree 100% with them (as I said I am ok with shitty supports being changed, nothing of value is lost), but I can see where they're coming from.

[Solkia]

I don't feel like censorship does anything of value but try to cover up things we aren't comfortable with, in which case it will work itself out.

I feel this is different from the Xenoblade X scenario. Xenoblade X was an arbitrary decision based on assumptions and nothing else.

Soleil has been the maypole of backlash consistently for half a year, Nintendo wouldn't benefit in any way from leaving it in.

I feel like modfications are only stupid when they're based on assumptions and not actual responses.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Solkia

[Technoweirdo]

Don't mind this one bit. There's an argument for preservation of intent, but I -highly- doubt gay conversion therapy nor date rape allusions were intended and thus should not be preserved. Authors are inconsistent and editors don't catch everything the first time through.

My guess on what they did: Kamui takes lessons from Foleo, temporarily appears as F!Kamui on-screen, confusing Soleil and even the player. The crutch of the joke -- M!Kamui appearing to Soleil as a woman -- is preserved but is less unintentionally offensive. Would argue funnier too when the player's seeing what Soleil's seeing.

...yah, it's kind of amazing how spectacularly bad they screwed her up. I'd absolutely LOVE it if they added same sex romance options for her (and considering they DID add a couple of those for other characters, it still baffles me that Soleil wasn't a possibility too) but that seems a fairly large change. I mean, I know localization will sometimes make some pretty drastic changes in story and writing, but that for the most part involves altering words. They'd have to actually add new Support ranks and alter gameplay to give Soleil the ability to marry women.

Wouldn't throw it completely out of the question, though that requires Intelligent Systems going above and beyond for a localization when they'd probably prefer to just work on FE15 and try to avoid repeating the same mistake.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Technoweirdo

[Jave]

Well, I hope you guys are happy.

I mean, this is what you wanted.

[arvilino]

I don't feel like censorship does anything of value but try to cover up things we aren't comfortable with.

I feel this is different from the Xenoblade X scenario. Xenoblade X was an arbitrary decision based on assumptions and nothing else.

Soleil has been the maypole of backlash consistently for half a year, Nintendo wouldn't benefit in any way from leaving it in.

I feel like modfications are only stupid when they're based on assumptions and not actual responses.

Personally I don't think its particularly good when mob mentality tries to put something down. I felt the same with with Tomodachi Life where the game was being positioned as if Nintendo were making a statement saying Homosexual Marriages weren't allowed. People being offended to the point of it making some actual news headlines for something the game didn't have and wasn't even commenting on.

Localisation is fine, censorship is fine provided it's taking into account the laws and restrictions of whatever country the game is being released in. But the tabloid-like misinformation-rich nature of how these things become controversial in the first place isn't something I like to see. With the whole "gay conversion" being analogous to say the claim of Mass Effect having "Full Frontal Nudity" during the sex scenes, in that it doesn't happen but the claim makes it more controversial and acts as a springboard to give the issue more attention even if it isn't true.

I personally don't want to see devs end up in a situation where they feel they have to make games as inoffensive as possible or risk treading a minefield.

Edited January 21, 2016 by arvilino

[BrightBow]

You also don't want to admit that maybe Awakening was successful because people liked its atmosphere as well as its fanservice. SF is maybe 5% of the community and people like you are maybe half of these 5%. You seem not to understand that (a lot of) people can genuinely have fun with the game.

I would never argue any of these things. Well, other then your definition of the term "fanservice". As far as I am concerned, the only notable instances of fanservice in Awakening are Priam and Tiki.

It does disturb me, though. Not because of the stupid outfits or anything but because of the mass burnings, rape among other things. Butmost importantly: the complete lack of any self-awareness when these things pop up. Awakening's setting and characters are about as messed up as the ones in the likes of No More Heroes' or South Park. Yet, unlike those kind of franchises, Awakening tries to present itself as if it was basically My little Pony. It's the most disturbing piece of media that I've ever consumed and it scares me to think that Fates might actually be worse about that.

Singling out Nowi when we have Ricken is also a low blow. Only difference between them is Ricken shows far less skin if any. A child dragonfolk that takes millenia to have the appearance of a mature human adult is problematic regardless of whom you pick as her husband, and, with the current otherkin trend (which I dismiss as the weirdness of today's teens), maybe Nowi appeals to more people than just pedophiles.

What are you saying here? That the messed up stuff that I mentioned is somehow less messed up because there is other messed up stuff? Because I have no intention to defend Ricken in any way.

When I get to play Fates I'll enjoy it if I find it fun and turn a blind eye to the things that I could find bad about it if I have fun with it. This rubbing crap looks a lot like "Pokémon-Amie in Fire Emblem" anyway.

That's great. Personally I find it difficult to care about the characters when the game treats them as if they were mere pets and not actual human beings with their own motivations and goals. But hey, I'm glad if others can still have fun.

Edited January 21, 2016 by BrightBow

[Tryhard]

I'm pretty sure the reasons why it should be changed have been argued to death and back, in this forum and elsewhere. I was all set to go on a rant, but instead I'll just keep it brief. Nintendo screwed up, and created a scene that had unfortunate implications they did not want. They did not want a scene to evoke ideas of gay conversation therapy or date rape drugs, but the scene reminded a whole lot of people of both, particular the former. So they changed it.

To view it from a slightly different perspective, I saw someone recently point out that the supports were almost certainly meant to be funny. But instead they were coming off as awkward and uncomfortable to a whole bunch of people, and just plain stupid to most others. Jokes are often changed in localization (oftentimes they have to be cuz they'd make no sense outside of certain cultural contexts), why shouldn't this one be?

It's a pretty arbitrary scale to see which 'jokes' or content isn't appropriate or suitable for presumably a Western audience. And usually, those jokes are altered because they are simply lost on Western releases and are tied to Japanese culture exclusively, not because they are deemed offensive. I dislike the idea that something is censored just because of the fear of one group getting angry about it occurs.

While like I said I would prefer a better support, it is disregarding that the developers absolutely originally wrote a shitty support. It being altered makes no difference to the fact that it was originally what it was, and if you're offended by that then you should still be.

Why do I get the feeling those who were complaining about that one conversation with Soleil are now going to be the ones at the forefront of "anti-censorship?" Whatever, it's out next month and I'll no doubt be enjoying the game immensely.

This doesn't really make sense. If they were truly anti-all-censorship, they would absolutely want the game to have the same conversation even if they personally found it distasteful or didn't like it. If they accept that censorship does have some gray areas like me, I would say that is acceptable to substitute it with something better. Edited January 21, 2016 by Tryhard

[ckc22]

People have already stated in this thread and in other ones that they'd rather have a translation that is as close to the original game as possible, even if the content of the original game is not all to theor liking. I don't agree 100% with them (as I said I am ok with shitty supports being changed, nothing of value is lost), but I can see where they're coming from.

I'd rather have a well localized game that doesn't ooze weird japanese paraphilias that were never in FE until Awakening.

[The DanMan]

I'd rather have a well localized game that doesn't ooze weird japanese paraphilias that were never in FE until Awakening.

Seconded. Where's a "Like Post" option, SF?

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I'd rather have a well localized game that doesn't ooze weird japanese paraphilias that were never in FE until Awakening.

thirded, i'm not sure why some people just can't accept that some of us wants fire emblem back to the good old days of not being really creepy and perverted in its optional content.

Well, I hope you guys are happy.

I mean, this is what you wanted.

i am happy and this is what i wanted.

now if i can just get skinship removed i'll be overjoyed.

[ckc22]

now if i can just get skinship removed i'll be overjoyed.

I wish they had used the real2d stuff in a cooler way - it's really neat but bleh skinship.

[Tolvir]

I'd rather have a well localized game that doesn't ooze weird japanese paraphilias that were never in FE until Awakening.

fourthed, though I do think it could be worst. Yeah the face-rubbing stuff is weird, and could have been replaced with a much better system if they wanted something that included 2d models and supports, but it could be much worst. I personally think a system that allows you to take people on a "date" would be cool. Even people you aren't trying to S-support. Something like visiting the tavern with someone, or something along those lines. Could of used the 2d models and allowed us to learn more about the characters through various questions or something. Hopefully they will tone down the Hikikomori pandering in FE 15.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Tolvir

[Tryhard]

I'd rather have a well localized game that doesn't ooze weird japanese paraphilias that were never in FE until Awakening.

thirded, i'm not sure why some people just can't accept that some of us wants fire emblem back to the good old days of not being really creepy and perverted in its optional content.

that sounds like a fire emblem problem, not necessarily a localization problem though Edited January 21, 2016 by Tryhard

[Tolvir]

that sounds like a fire emblem problem, not necessarily a localization problem though

The localization team could of taken steps to reduce it though. Nowi could of been an easy fix if they had toned down the kiddish nature to her supports. As it is when I first saw her I thought she was supposed to be an elf of some kind. Its the childish nature of the character that made her seem so much like a pedo-pandering character. At least in my opinion.

[Tryhard]

The localization team could of taken steps to reduce it though. Nowi could of been an easy fix if they had toned down the kiddish nature to her supports. As it is when I first saw her I thought she was supposed to be an elf of some kind. Its the childish nature of the character that made her seem so much like a pedo-pandering character. At least in my opinion.

The funny thing is, I think they did make Nowi less of a child in Awakening, compared to the Japanese version. Edited January 21, 2016 by Tryhard