Spies Since Carrion Isle Discussion

[Prota]

Something hit me the other day regarding Awakening.

Oh, uh, spoilers, by the way.

Validar tells you later in the game that he's had spies on you since the Carrion Isle map, but he never says whether or not they were Risen.

The first time I played I figured that's what he meant, but what if Henry was his spy?

Suddenly ol' Vally pitting Risen against you makes sense, it was all to make Henry integrate into your army.

Chrom is quite naive and the Avatar is rather busy having migraines at that point, so there's really nobody to question it other than Frederick. (But really, did anybody ever actually listen to that guy?)

I mean...Henry's generally a mystery, right?

So does this make sense to anybody else?

Could there have been others in the army spying for Plegia?

[ENS]

Please do not seek logic in Awakening.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Please do not seek logic in Awakening.

Well, if you don't look for any, of course you're not going to find any. Doesn't mean there isn't any there.

Chrom's army is occasionally (if rarely) shown to consist of more than just the player units, such as a handful of Soldiers in post-Cht.14 and an Assassin in pre-Cht.9 (or is it post-Cht.8?). I assume they're in there somewhere (and he does say "spies", indicating more than one). Henry himself doesn't seem nearly trustworthy enough to use as a spy if you really want an airtight plan. Maybe he could use crows as spies?

[Dwlr]

Henry himself doesn't seem nearly trustworthy enough to use as a spy if you really want an airtight plan. Maybe he could use crows as spies?

What's so untrustworthy about Henry? He's quite loyal if you ask me, it's just where his loyalties lie. Panne can talk to animals she'd know if the crows are spying against her I'd imagine.

--

I highly doubt it's anybody that is a playable unit except maybe the Avatar themselves. It stands to reason that if the Avatar can see visions of Grima, that Grima or his vassal Validar could see visions through the Avatar which would help explain the headaches. It's borderline cliche that headaches indicate some sort of psychic link and visions and that those visions go both ways, even Harry Potter used them in that way.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I'd probably put my money on the generics. I mean, Chrom's army even uses a generic to spy on Gangrel, so there's probably a lot of back and forth with each army throwing around expendable generics as spies in any given conflict.

[Sock]

I thought of Henry, too.

But the ONLY connection is the location Henry joins.

I'm kind of miffed about it.

No one questions Henry after that chapter/before the next chapter; they don't make the Plegian-conveniently-joining-us-on-Carrion-Isle connection. Too distracted by dragonGrima showing up.

It's a good place for Henry to join--he's Plegian, after all.

But then they go "you've been spied on since Carrion Isle!" and don't acknowledge Henry's coincidental recruitment?

Jeez, what a let-down. :(

Awakening is too simple for its own good.

[/rant]

[TheSilentChloey]

Perhaps because Henry isn't actually a spy and was presented as an ally rather than the enemy like Tharja.

Also don't forget that it was someone who was close enough to the Avatar (and I doubt that Henry would be that close that early on in the game...especially with how long it takes to build support) to know that they didn't touch the Fire Emblem. From what I saw of the game there are quite a few generic spys running around and that it could very well be possible, as well as Grima seeing what is going on in the present through their connection to the avatar.

[Prota]

All good statements against Henry...So I present you with a little something more.

You'll be unlikely to agree with me, but I still want to talk it out.

Morgan.

For the sake of convenience I'm going to refer to her as female, since that's the Morgan I got.

She could very well be another candidate for spyhood. She joins around the right time, fixes the constantly close to the Avatar issue, and has a very convenient memory-loss backstory.

We find out in the Future Past DLC that Grima does influence the twins quite dramatically. What if the Morgan you get was brought back from Grima's future along with him?

It seems plausible to me, at least.

Prove me wrong, friends, I beg you. I love my Morgan.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Prota

[Dwlr]

All good statements against Henry...So I present you with a little something more.

You'll be unlikely to agree with me, but I still want to talk it out.

Morgan.

For the sake of convenience I'm going to refer to her as female, since that's the Morgan I got.

She could very well be another candidate for spyhood. She joins around the right time, fixes the constantly close to the Avatar issue, and has a very convenient memory-loss backstory.

We find out in the Future Past DLC that Grima does influence the twins quite dramatically. What if the Morgan you get was brought back from Grima's future along with him?

It seems plausible to me, at least.

Prove me wrong, friends, I beg you. I love my Morgan.

The game suggests that the Morgan that you recruit isn't the Morgan from the same future as the other children despite there being a Morgan in those futures considering that the Avatar can marry characters that are canonically dead. I doubt that that Morgan is working with Grima and that the Morgan from Grima's timeline either didn't come and stayed to rule or what have you over the original timeline or their conscious got the better of them and they rebelled and subsequently was killed by the Grima that came back. In Future Past that Morgan doesn't really approve of what they're doing after all. (Killing their friends and what have you) Grima also mentions that they manipulated those Morgan's memories.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Dwlr

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Well what if Lucina's a spy? I mean she just unexpectedly popped out randomly and saved her dad from that Assassin?

/me shrugs

I'm just saying.

[Moblin Major General]

All of you are wrong. The generic merchants who you buy weapons from are the spies! How did I come to this conclusion, you ask? Those books on their shelves are none other than copies of Grima's Truth. Of course, you wouldn't suspect it, because they are polite enough to take your money and/or plundered goods instead of your life. That also explains how there are limitless numbers of Reeking Boxes at certain stalls,one of which is on the Carrion Isle.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Hylian Air Force

[eclipse]

Tharja makes some sense. She's painted as a stalker, but what if the point of that is to make it so that she's associated with being near Robin all the time? She was also willing to betray her own country, and she apparently writes to her family in Plegia. So. . .what if her creeper act is just an act, so that people don't get too close to her?

Granted, she's an enemy and can be offed, but it's fun to think about~!

[Czar_Yoshi]

The game suggests that the Morgan that you recruit isn't the Morgan from the same future as the other children despite there being a Morgan in those futures considering that the Avatar can marry characters that are canonically dead. I doubt that that Morgan is working with Grima and that the Morgan from Grima's timeline either didn't come and stayed to rule or what have you over the original timeline or their conscious got the better of them and they rebelled and subsequently was killed by the Grima that came back. In Future Past that Morgan doesn't really approve of what they're doing after all. (Killing their friends and what have you) Grima also mentions that they manipulated those Morgan's memories.

I mostly agree, though keep in mind there isn't always a Morgan in Lucina's future depending on who Robin marries. But FP Morgan definitely has no reservations whatsoever about doing Grima's will in FP prior to the conversation with Robin- here's the quote for reference:

...I can't do it. I can't keep fighting. Up until now, my faith was unshakable. I was ready to kill my own friends... But I cannot strike down the kind and gentle father I once knew... Forgive me, Master Grima. I must withdraw... I remain your servant and am ready to accept any punishment you see fit.

That line really doesn't support Morgan being evil, by the way. Even if she was a good enough actor to pull it off for a while (she's not), she couldn't possibly keep it up under that kind of pressure for so long, if one single conversation cracks her that much.

[Prota]

That line really doesn't support Morgan being evil, by the way. Even if she was a good enough actor to pull it off for a while (she's not), she couldn't possibly keep it up under that kind of pressure for so long, if one single conversation cracks her that much.

That could be an explanation for why Morgan kept fighting, even past Grima's return to dragonhood.

Could be that she just...Gave in to the hope of having a normal life again.

Tharja makes some sense. She's painted as a stalker, but what if the point of that is to make it so that she's associated with being near Robin all the time? She was also willing to betray her own country, and she apparently writes to her family in Plegia. So. . .what if her creeper act is just an act, so that people don't get too close to her?Granted, she's an enemy and can be offed, but it's fun to think about~!

I agree with this as well. In fact, you beat me to posting it, my friend.

I would have brought Tharja up after Morgan, as I find her the most likely suspect.

Well...Her and Gaius. But we can talk about him later.

Edit: Can you really not remove posts, or is there a button I'm not seeing here?

Edited January 28, 2016 by eclipse
Merged double posts, would appreciate payment in the form of bottled water

[Prota]

Tharja makes some sense. She's painted as a stalker, but what if the point of that is to make it so that she's associated with being near Robin all the time? She was also willing to betray her own country, and she apparently writes to her family in Plegia. So. . .what if her creeper act is just an act, so that people don't get too close to her?Granted, she's an enemy and can be offed, but it's fun to think about~!

I agree with this as well. In fact, you beat me to posting it, my friend.

I would have brought Tharja up after Morgan, as I find her the most likely suspect.

Well...Her and Gaius. But we can talk about him later.

Edit: Can you really not remove posts, or is there a button I'm not seeing here?

Edited January 28, 2016 by Prota

[eclipse]

You'll have to ask a mod to remove it. But since you've found the Edit button anyway, please let this serve as a reminder to edit your posts instead of posting twice in a row.

[Dwlr]

I mostly agree, though keep in mind there isn't always a Morgan in Lucina's future depending on who Robin marries. But FP Morgan definitely has no reservations whatsoever about doing Grima's will in FP prior to the conversation with Robin- here's the quote for reference:

That line really doesn't support Morgan being evil, by the way. Even if she was a good enough actor to pull it off for a while (she's not), she couldn't possibly keep it up under that kind of pressure for so long, if one single conversation cracks her that much.

All the endings say that they speculate he was from a different future, but the supports suggest that the children have a familiarity with him regardless of who the avatar marries which suggests there is a Morgan in Lucina's future regardless. If you can turn them to retreat by merely talking to them they clearly have some reservations even if they're loyal. The line "Up until now my faith was unshakable" can serve as a device to say that they've had doubts, it could also be them trying to justify what they've done to their-self it certainly doesn't have to be taken at face value and given that they do end up retreating it certainly suggests it's not meant to be taken at face value ergo my statement about them having reservations stands. Given that if you make both Morgans retreat Grima says he manipulated their memories further suggests that it's not necessarily their idea as well. You're arguing both points, "no reservations" and "can't keep it up...for long" that's pretty much agreeing that it's getting to them ergo the faith is hardly "unshakable" from the get go id est it's used as a literary device that they had some sort of reservation the whole time or they at least recognized it as being wrong the whole time which the latter would be them justifying it to themselves for what they had already done.

[Czar_Yoshi]

but the supports suggest that the children have a familiarity with him regardless of who the avatar marries which suggests there is a Morgan in Lucina's future regardless.

Do they? They don't exactly treat Morgan like a stranger, but the only time any relationship Morgan had with anyone else in the future is brought up is in the sibling supports. Every other interaction would have been plausible if they never new eachother before arriving in the present, future Morgan isn't mentioned. Thus, I have a much easier time believing that Morgan simply may or may not exist in the future than that they somehow did, even if their parents couldn't possibly have been married.

If there's something in a support somewhere I've missed that contradicts that, please do bring it to my attention.

If you can turn them to retreat by merely talking to them they clearly have some reservations even if they're loyal. The line "Up until now my faith was unshakable" can serve as a device to say that they've had doubts, it could also be them trying to justify what they've done to their-self it certainly doesn't have to be taken at face value and given that they do end up retreating it certainly suggests it's not meant to be taken at face value ergo my statement about them having reservations stands.

My best guess as to her real mental state is that earlier she made up her mind about a difficult and painful decision (her father vs her friends). Her father won out, and she now uses extreme devotion and loyalty toward him to avoid dwelling on the decision she made (basically avoiding the pain of thinking about it). So while she'd happily let her friends live normally, it's not something she allows herself to consider because the pain would be too great.

Robin's conversation forces her to think about that decision again, which in turn puts her friends back onto the table. Any reservations she had about hurting them, which she was ignoring as a survival mechanism before, are now resurfacing, and that's what makes her flee. Did she have reservations before? Technically yes, but they couldn't do anything because she couldn't think about them. Her position, prior to the conversation, was one of someone with no reservations.

That's my position on the matter.

Given that if you make both Morgans retreat Grima says he manipulated their memories further suggests that it's not necessarily their idea as well. You're arguing both points, "no reservations" and "can't keep it up...for long" that's pretty much agreeing that it's getting to them ergo the faith is hardly "unshakable" from the get go id est it's used as a literary device that they had some sort of reservation the whole time or they at least recognized it as being wrong the whole time which the latter would be them justifying it to themselves for what they had already done.

The specific wording is "manipulated the children's sympathies". He's playing with them psychologically, he's fully aware of what the effects of what he puts them through will be.

They can't and won't lose faith on their own, due to being unable to question it, so from their perspective it is unshakable. Should an outside influence force them to question it, everything's back on the table (which is exactly what Robin was and did). To an observer? Very shaky. To them? Unshakable.

[Sock]

Do they? They don't exactly treat Morgan like a stranger, but the only time any relationship Morgan had with anyone else in the future is brought up is in the sibling supports. Every other interaction would have been plausible if they never new eachother before arriving in the present, future Morgan isn't mentioned.

@bolded: Adding to this, some of the first-gen non-Shepherd characters don't exactly treat each other like strangers, either.

~~

As for where/when Morgan is from... In the supports there are only three spots it's brought up: the sibling supports, as mentioned; Lucina/MaMorgan B support; Brady/FeMorgan supports.

Morgan:

Hmm... I couldn't say. But isn't being in this era a pretty good deal for you, too? All I've heard of our era are tales of death and starvation and a whole lot of bad stuff.

"Our" era. That's it. Nothing else in the prior or following lines regarding Morgan's relevance to Lucina's future; Lucina neither acknowledges nor questions Morgan's future-timeline-existence.

Brady/FeMorgan supports: Brady flat out calls FeMorgan a spy. This proves Brady didn't know FeMorgan in the future, but it doesn't mean anything for the other kids.

I don't want to post what I wrote up about sibling supports...

...This was more a fact dump than anything. :v

[Czar_Yoshi]

Sibling supports don't matter because Morgan wouldn't even have siblings in the cases where s/he can't exist in Lucina's future.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Czar_Yoshi

[amiabletemplar]

Count me as another in favor of it just being random soldiers, support staff, observers, or something else like that. Remember that Validar is essentially granting an allied Ylisse/Ferox army full access to their navy and free rein on the Plegian treasury...for paying for the war. Validar is being incredibly, almost recklessly generous here. He would be well within his rights to have representatives there to make sure that the Plegian treasury is being used for the war itself, rather than for personal ends, and to make sure that any bills of credit are properly transmitted back to the capital for payment (since it's unlikely that they would cart the treasury off with them to war).

Morgan also strikes me as an unlikely candidate for a few other reasons.

1) It is entirely possible to complete the game without picking up Morgan. Additionally, while Morgan's recruitment will always come after Carrion Isle, it's a little...weird to say that Morgan was there "since" the Isle, even if she is recruited immediately thereafter.

2) While it's a bit of a weak reason, the Morgan who comes back claims to remember the Avatar perfectly clearly, but never mentions the whole "possessed by an evil dragon god" thing. Which, y'know, seems like a kind of important feature to mention at some point.

3) Morgan is pretty damn heavily under cover, since he can participate in slaying Grima, or aiding Naga/the Awakening, without betraying the Shepherds. Not a very good spy!

4) Morgan's overall behavior doesn't seem consistent with someone maintaining a facade of interest over time. In fact, given how silly Morgan can be, it's a little hard to believe anyone would *trust* her with such a fantastically important mission deep in "enemy" territory.

5) The timing actually seems like it would be pretty complicated, if Morgan is reporting to Validar. It's also weird that Grima would rely solely on the Blood call, rather than trying to exploit a more direct connection through Morgan.

So...yeah. It's not impossible for Morgan to be a spy. But it just seems highly unlikely.

[Czar_Yoshi]

He would be well within his rights to have representatives there

More than that, he probably has to. Ylisse has no ships, implying they have little maritime expertise, and Validar just gave them 1000 ships. I don't think Ylisse would be able to get those to Valm on their own, not without a colossal logistical headache and probably very slowly. Validar probably threw in some sailors and naval command structure, just with the prohibition that they couldn't fight.

[Rukina]

Future Robin already knew what events would come to pass so stalking Chrom and company wouldn't be difficult, even with his diminished power. He is aware of where present day Robin is since they share the same heart/blood/mind/etc. which probably makes that Robin an unwitting spy or at least an organic tracking device. He also has control over the Risen who are capable of warping to and from different locations. I'd say Validar had the only spy he ever needed once future Robin teamed up with him to ensure everything stayed on course.

Validar only funded them and provided ships. He emphasizes the exclusion of people while going over his evil scheme toward the end of the game.

Although he does have clothing that hints at Grimleal affiliation I don't think Henry was working with them when he joined Chrom's party. It wouldn't surprise me if he was a former Grimleal dark mage who was in it for personal gain but decided to leave after getting what he wanted.

[Aurabolt]

Some of Henry's supports where he talks about his past infers he was taken in by the Grimleal because his powers manifested before he was even born. He may have been viewed as a human weapon to Plegia in lieu of Robin not having been "found" yet.